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Charlotte Katakuri vs Silvers Rayleigh

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1) From early in the fight, Luffy actually managed to evade many of Katakuri's attacks. Only times he got hit were when he was trying to press an offense, or when Kata's siblings were attacking his crew, or when Brulee taunted him. It was made VERY clear from the start of the fight that Kata was also faster, stronger, and more versatile than Gear 2nd and 3rd Luffy--NOT that FS was the only big thing Luffy had to deal with. It was heavily emphasized in chapter 879.

  • Luffy then intentionally went back to fight Kata post Bound-man to train his Haki further so that he could also see the future. Yeah, he became a punching bag, but he was still slower and weaker outside of FS.
2) He was swimming from outside of the calm-belt and had to kill Sea Kings when he actually reached it. This heavily implies he swam for at least hundreds of kilometers since Amazon Lily is set somewhere in the middle. Swimming actually requires a lot of stamina, and Rayleigh was also killing Sea Kings on the way before being shown completely unphased by the whole experience.

I mentioned Goken separately because it's an application of Armament, and grants other advantages from just a standard use of Armament.

Now then, for the new advantages you posted: Intang is irrelevant if Rayleigh lands a hit with Haki--which he will be using the second he realizes Kata uses a DF. Regen only works when Kata is struck or damaged in logia form, which will not happen as Rayleigh will be striking with Haki. Large Size literally does nothing here as he's far smaller than a giant, not to mention this just makes him a bigger target. Stat enhancement is something Rayleigh has the advantage in due to superior CoA feats. Mimicry only worked against Luffy because the nature of their abilities were very similar (Again, emphasized heavily in 879)--just that Katakuri's was better suited for most attacks. Smothering wont work because all Rayleigh has to do is either break free (A Base Luffy did so by eating his way out), or use his haki to destroy the mochi around him, should he be caught.

Also, Fire manip and Explosion manip are only for one attack. A fist projectile that could easily be blocked or dodged.

Honestly, the only thing you listed that Rayleigh would have genuine struggles with are Range, Transmutation + Smothering FROM said transmutation. Everything else is straight-up countered by Rayleigh's set-up.
 
Genuinely shocked Mimicry is still on Kata's page when he only did so against someone with very similar abilities to him in the first place. Going to make a revision thread.

Also, If Katakuri doesn't have expansion on his profile, he really should since he can do it similarly to Luffy.
 
1) I honestly do not recall Luffy evading many hits but I can agree to disagree as you acknowledged he could not form any offense against Future Sight.

2)Repeat: Swimming =/= fighting

3) Yes we all have acknowledged Goken is the one ace up his sleeve which Katakuri does not.

4) Yes, Silvers will have to use Armament constantly just to have a chance, which is an advantage Katakuri has weakening him over time.

5) Maybe if Silvers had some giant AOE attacks, but as doesn't it just adds to Katakuri's significant range advantage.

6) Goken is not stat enhancement

7) True Silvers doesn't have all of Luffy's abilities which just makes this worse for him

8) Ray would have a hard time dodging that if he's stuck in Mochi. Let's not pretend it can just be easily dealt with when it wasn't dodged even without sticky help.
 
I vote silver rayliegh because of his wisdom alone would be hard for dogtooth to deal with he can easily come up with a strategy to fight against mochi, so again the only katakuri is going this fight is if can prolong the fight long enough for silver haki to deteriorate; but will dogtooths haki become significantly worse as well ?
 
That's kind of a cop out :S You assume because he's older he's wise enough to come up with a counter instead of providing one.
 
Dr.Fix said:
That's kind of a cop out :S You assume because he's older he's wise enough to come up with a counter instead of providing one.
No I assume this because he was the pirate kings right hand man; "you can't base your of that because he was the pirate right hand man" if I can't base my answer of that then no one should bring katakuri childhood piracy up for discussion
 
>Both gets scalling from Marco's feat

>Katakuri could overcome a character who become more and more faster overtime.

>Katakuri has better CoO which helps a lot in a speed fight

I really don't see anything on Ray favor when it comes to speed
 
How does Katakuri get scaling from that and he wasn't even threre? Marco and Rayliegh actually got into a scuffle with Kizaru, Katakuri did not...
 
I won't waste my time explaining scaling chain again. Rayleigh never fight against Marco and he still gets scalling from his feat, same as Kata.
 
Stomp for Rayleigh.

Pre-ts rusty Rayleigh fought evenly with and drew first blood on Kizaru who is equal to if not slightly superior to Akainu who after getting badly injured by Whitebeard ROLFstomped Marco and Vista at the same time (no selling their attacks) who Katakuri scales down from !

Post ts Rayleigh = pre ts Rayleigh but with better stamina >= Kizaru > or = Healthy Akainu >> Injured Akainu >>>> Marco >= Katakuri

Katakuri gets one shotted by a Ryu blast.
 
I think 1st commanders should be comparablable but not equal

A prime example would be Marco and Kizaru clashing but Kizaru literally did not even want to deal with Beckman whatsoever.

Keep in mind this is the same Kizaru who was willing to go to Wano...
 
The Calaca said:
No, he's scaling to Kizaru.
Same difference. Kizaru gets his spd scaling for being only a little slower than Marco. Katakuri gets scaling for being comparable FM. Its the same situation as when WB commanders got high 7-A without feats from the Sweets.

Seriously guys enough with the wank. If you want to change the rankings make a CRT and bring good arguments. Right now these two are comparable stat wise. Please move on.
 
Marco is fast enough to intercept Kizaru's light SPD attk, which means he would also be fast enough to dodge it if he wanted to. That same attack wasn't powerful enough to even slow him down, or if it did, Marco was still fast enough to land a hit, albeit not fast enough that Kizaru couldn't block. At which point Kizaru's arm didn't break or anything (As someone who's done MMA for seven years trust me, a blocked kick between equals isn't a big deal), but he still got over-powered and sent back in that scuffle. Then he called on air support rather than try his luck again.

So yes, overall base-base Marco (a bit)>Kizaru.

I have no idea what Child version of Katakur has to deal with though.
 
That accounts AP, not speed.

You forgot to mention that everything Kizaru does is casual. He doesn't put effort in not a single thing, even when facing Shirohige, so calling those feats evidence of Marco > Kizaru ignores the overall context and character.

Marco wasn't fazed because his Phoenix form has a form of Elemental Intangibility, but you can see that the moment Kizaru lands a laser on Marco's human body, he gets damaged even before he's handcuffed with Seastone.
 
I know, I was taking the opprotunity to showcase Marco's strengths :p Plus it relates back to him not being slowed down.

I don't overhype characters with interpretations like that. "Oh so and so hasn't gone all out yet" is not a legit response except in hindsight.

Duffy being casual at MF is legit, because we've seen him do more.

Kizaru/anyone's fav character doesn't count because you're judging by an unknown hypothetical.

Marco's DF abilities don't count but Kizaru's DF is fair game? Double standard.
 
Rayleigh was the one keeping up with Kizaru, but he's hindered by old age as he admitted.

Marco didn't scratch Kizaru either, even though they were fighting for an unknown timeframe. We can't say if Marco wasn't fazed either, since he regenerates from all the damage.

Lot of steps in that scaling chain are assumptions without any evidence backing them up.
 
I know, just felt like adding that chain in since others are voicing their opinions.

Prime Ray>Old ray (duh), Ray=Kizaru (Also duh) Marco=>Kizaru (Duh).

The rest are guesstimations.
 
Rayleigh has, in melee combat, overcome Kizaru and directly wounded him, as well as intercepted his abilities point-blank.

Marco has intercepted a single attack of Kizaru's at a large distance and then kicked him to literally no avail, since Kizaru mockingly commented on Marco's strength and Marco even told him to stop lying.

Any attempt to compare Katakuri via Marco scaling to Rayleigh via his DIRECT scaling is asinine and lacking basic grasp of context.
 
This is probably the most accurate- Prime Ray >>>> Old Ray >= Kizaru > or = Healthy Akainu >> Injured Akainu >>>> Marco >= Katakuri (at best)

Though Akainu and Kizaru do have regen, heat and speed/laser hax which makes more dangerous in practice, more like <Prime Rayleigh than <<<< Prime Ray which is what they are in raw AP
 
The fact that as an old man who had been drinking for 20 years straight and never picked up a sword in that timeframe he was outmuscling Kizaru during their fight. And Marco's scaling comes from marco and vista getting roflstomped by a wounded akainu
 
The Calaca said:
Outmatching? Can you show me the exact part of the fight where he was 'outmatching' Kizaru?
Firstly I said Outmsucling, Kizaru would have probably beaten him with his hax and speed, but was inferior in raw power/ap.

Rayleigh drew first blood and had no problem with Kizaru's strength in that fight. It was hax, his speed and Rayleigh's poor stamina that made him (Kizaru) a live dog in that fight
 
No, you edited it to outmuscling.

You have to prove Kizaru was inferior in AP.

Deflecting a laser by kicking away the leg with no damage done is first blood now? DBS anime has seen more blood than that.

Kizaru didn't use his hax on the fight. He wasn't going all out yet Rayleigh was being pressured by him. He also didn't capitalize on speed to overcome Ray.
 
I read it wrong, my bad.

But there's no big difference between outmuscling and outmatching. Something that the scan you posted doesn't prove.
 
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