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Charlotte Katakuri vs Silvers Rayleigh
- Thread starter Ryuga21
- Start date
- Status
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Rayleigh has far better portrayal. Is deemed a legend in the same breath as Whitebeard, fought Kizaru equally, right hand of the PK >> right hand of a Yonko. Has better armament Haki and is implied to have the same level of observation Haki, clearly a Haki master as he's teaching Luffy of all people Haki. Not too much I can say using his profile as there isn't much on there, just going by the story Katakuri is an ordinary pirate compared to Rayleigh.
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We don't consider anime canon here. It's heavily inconsistent among many other reasons.Kunglao105 said:
Not to mention that segment would have occurred very early in Luffy's training, so he would be significantly weaker than he was by the time he reached his level post time-skip.
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Also, even if we suggest that Rayleigh is more powerful than Katakuri, it would not be by more than a marginal amount if we consider the site and lore implications:
Katakuri is possibly = Marco through a few potential and one solid scaling chain. Rayleigh is somewhat < Kizaru (If you really need me to explain... really?), and Marco is somewhat < Kizaru. Strictly talking power and nothing else.
From what we've seen, the Yonko's top commander is impressive enough to fight off an Admiral, even if they are not exactly on the same level as them. Rayleigh went toe-to-toe with Kizaru, but it was very obvious he was gradually losing the fight due to his age, and inability to do more than match Kizaru for a brief amount of time.
Now that I've gotten that out of the way: even if Rayleigh is stronger than Katakuri, it is by an insignificant amount. He'd be relying heavily on his skills and experience to pull through, which would not be enough alone since Katakuri is also a seasoned combatant who mastered his ability with CoO and his intang to prevent himself from taking a single hit through years of combat. All of Rayleigh's advantages in terms of intellect and AP/Dura are so small, they might as well not be there.
However, we have one thing that Rayleigh can use that can actually guarantee victory: his ability to use Goken.
I see this fight being very even with neither taking a single blow due to both's incredible agility and Haki capabilities. Katakuri would be spamming his Awakening and Rayleigh would be deftly avoiding each strike and coming within inches of a solid strike on Katakuri, and they would be at an impasse for quite some time--minutes to possibly even hours if Rayleigh can perform that long.
Being the master of Haki Rayleigh is, he would know every single strength and weakness of Haki, and recognize Katakuri's ability from VERY early on. Katakuri would be wearing down on Rayleigh due to his superior versatility and stamina + range, but Rayleigh would be patient and wait for an opening. Katakuri would likely crack under impatience (like he did vs Luffy) within hours, and Rayleigh would find his mark, landing a single blow to either cripple or incapacitate Katakuri.
If Katakuri lands strikes on Rayleigh, it wont necessarily mean Rayleigh will take damage due to Haki defense and his durability being = or even very slightly > Katakuri's, so he'd shrug off hits if he ever took one.
This is almost an inconclusive, but Rayleigh has a potential one-hit KO via Goken. I vote Rayleigh in high to extreme difficulty--relying on potential impatience from Katakuri hindering his CoO at some point, and almost certainly needing Goken to guarantee victory.
Katakuri is possibly = Marco through a few potential and one solid scaling chain. Rayleigh is somewhat < Kizaru (If you really need me to explain... really?), and Marco is somewhat < Kizaru. Strictly talking power and nothing else.
From what we've seen, the Yonko's top commander is impressive enough to fight off an Admiral, even if they are not exactly on the same level as them. Rayleigh went toe-to-toe with Kizaru, but it was very obvious he was gradually losing the fight due to his age, and inability to do more than match Kizaru for a brief amount of time.
Now that I've gotten that out of the way: even if Rayleigh is stronger than Katakuri, it is by an insignificant amount. He'd be relying heavily on his skills and experience to pull through, which would not be enough alone since Katakuri is also a seasoned combatant who mastered his ability with CoO and his intang to prevent himself from taking a single hit through years of combat. All of Rayleigh's advantages in terms of intellect and AP/Dura are so small, they might as well not be there.
However, we have one thing that Rayleigh can use that can actually guarantee victory: his ability to use Goken.
I see this fight being very even with neither taking a single blow due to both's incredible agility and Haki capabilities. Katakuri would be spamming his Awakening and Rayleigh would be deftly avoiding each strike and coming within inches of a solid strike on Katakuri, and they would be at an impasse for quite some time--minutes to possibly even hours if Rayleigh can perform that long.
Being the master of Haki Rayleigh is, he would know every single strength and weakness of Haki, and recognize Katakuri's ability from VERY early on. Katakuri would be wearing down on Rayleigh due to his superior versatility and stamina + range, but Rayleigh would be patient and wait for an opening. Katakuri would likely crack under impatience (like he did vs Luffy) within hours, and Rayleigh would find his mark, landing a single blow to either cripple or incapacitate Katakuri.
If Katakuri lands strikes on Rayleigh, it wont necessarily mean Rayleigh will take damage due to Haki defense and his durability being = or even very slightly > Katakuri's, so he'd shrug off hits if he ever took one.
This is almost an inconclusive, but Rayleigh has a potential one-hit KO via Goken. I vote Rayleigh in high to extreme difficulty--relying on potential impatience from Katakuri hindering his CoO at some point, and almost certainly needing Goken to guarantee victory.
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Actually nothing was debunked by Fix
Luffy literally beat Katakuri from Raylieghs training...
Luffy literally beat Katakuri from Raylieghs training...
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@Cin Thanks for taking the time to provide a detailed response, makes this more interesting. 
>>From what we've seen, the Yonko's top commander is impressive enough to fight off an Admiral, even if they are not exactly on the same level as them. Rayleigh went toe-to-toe with Kizaru, but it was very obvious he was gradually losing the fight due to his age, and inability to do more than match Kizaru for a brief amount of time.
I actually disagree somewhat with this scaling. Kizaru was paired three times with First Mates and all three times he was matched or made to look weaker.
Against Kizaru he matched him in speed, swordsmanship, power. That said, Kizaru was the one who took the only damage. Kizaru has far worse stamina and would likely lose a long fight, but if he can take Kizaru down earlier through power or Goken it doesn't matter. Still he has the weakest feats of the three.
Marco intercepted Kizaru's light-spd attk and took it twice. Neither time doing any lasting damage and the second time not even slowing him down. Base for base he overpowered Kizaru in strength when he pushed him back and Kizaru stayed far away, even calling on air support. Yes, Marco didn't inflict any major damage on him but realistically I wouldn't expect him to when Kizaru did react in time to block it.
Against Benn he just gave up- don't need to say much here
So all of that together, while I don't always like equalization, it does appear all the first mates are at least comparable to Kizaru if not stronger. Katakuri could be different. He could be quite weaker for all we know. He could also be considerably stronger as could King. Hence equalization seems the most likely to just say he is around equal.
>>I see this fight being very even with neither taking a single blow due to both's incredible agility and Haki capabilities. Katakuri would be spamming his Awakening and Rayleigh would be deftly avoiding each strike and coming within inches of a solid strike on Katakuri, and they would be at an impasse for quite some time--minutes to possibly even hours if Rayleigh can perform that long.
I think you are exaggerating Rayleigh's speed here. You just mentioned that if a difference exists it is by an insignificant margin. Rayleigh would have to be considerably way above Katakuri in stats to make up for his obvious handicaps. For all we know, Katakuri could be stronger via his age.
Unlike Luffy, he cannot fly. We've yet to see anyone manage to fight an awakened user who didn't have flight. Realistically Rayleigh gets stuck and drowns quick
Also unlike Luffy, Ray does not have a body which can expand as much as he wants. Luffy got out of his situation by eating the mochi till he swelled up but Silvers does not have that option
Luffy also has blunt force resistance VS Silvers would bruise, break, bleed etc against all the hits he takes
Yes, he is taking hits. Even with Future sight Luffy took hits from Katakuri and sorry but for the moment Silvers does NOT have confirmed future sight.
Don't forget Katakuri has fantastic array of ranegd attacks and area control plus the ability to heighten his stats through mass.
As far as Goken is concerned, I'd wait to see it actually be used meaningfully in combat before I'd cal it a high tier 1-KO killer. Not to say it wouldn't damage Katakuri if it connects, but as Kaakuri is very good at dodging and will be putting the pressure on Silvers the whole time and he could fight though his organ damage I'm not in agreeance Silvers can just 1-KO him so easily.
>>From what we've seen, the Yonko's top commander is impressive enough to fight off an Admiral, even if they are not exactly on the same level as them. Rayleigh went toe-to-toe with Kizaru, but it was very obvious he was gradually losing the fight due to his age, and inability to do more than match Kizaru for a brief amount of time.
I actually disagree somewhat with this scaling. Kizaru was paired three times with First Mates and all three times he was matched or made to look weaker.
Against Kizaru he matched him in speed, swordsmanship, power. That said, Kizaru was the one who took the only damage. Kizaru has far worse stamina and would likely lose a long fight, but if he can take Kizaru down earlier through power or Goken it doesn't matter. Still he has the weakest feats of the three.
Marco intercepted Kizaru's light-spd attk and took it twice. Neither time doing any lasting damage and the second time not even slowing him down. Base for base he overpowered Kizaru in strength when he pushed him back and Kizaru stayed far away, even calling on air support. Yes, Marco didn't inflict any major damage on him but realistically I wouldn't expect him to when Kizaru did react in time to block it.
Against Benn he just gave up- don't need to say much here
So all of that together, while I don't always like equalization, it does appear all the first mates are at least comparable to Kizaru if not stronger. Katakuri could be different. He could be quite weaker for all we know. He could also be considerably stronger as could King. Hence equalization seems the most likely to just say he is around equal.
>>I see this fight being very even with neither taking a single blow due to both's incredible agility and Haki capabilities. Katakuri would be spamming his Awakening and Rayleigh would be deftly avoiding each strike and coming within inches of a solid strike on Katakuri, and they would be at an impasse for quite some time--minutes to possibly even hours if Rayleigh can perform that long.
I think you are exaggerating Rayleigh's speed here. You just mentioned that if a difference exists it is by an insignificant margin. Rayleigh would have to be considerably way above Katakuri in stats to make up for his obvious handicaps. For all we know, Katakuri could be stronger via his age.
Unlike Luffy, he cannot fly. We've yet to see anyone manage to fight an awakened user who didn't have flight. Realistically Rayleigh gets stuck and drowns quick
Also unlike Luffy, Ray does not have a body which can expand as much as he wants. Luffy got out of his situation by eating the mochi till he swelled up but Silvers does not have that option
Luffy also has blunt force resistance VS Silvers would bruise, break, bleed etc against all the hits he takes
Yes, he is taking hits. Even with Future sight Luffy took hits from Katakuri and sorry but for the moment Silvers does NOT have confirmed future sight.
Don't forget Katakuri has fantastic array of ranegd attacks and area control plus the ability to heighten his stats through mass.
As far as Goken is concerned, I'd wait to see it actually be used meaningfully in combat before I'd cal it a high tier 1-KO killer. Not to say it wouldn't damage Katakuri if it connects, but as Kaakuri is very good at dodging and will be putting the pressure on Silvers the whole time and he could fight though his organ damage I'm not in agreeance Silvers can just 1-KO him so easily.
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Luffy fought most of the time without using Gear 4th, therefore not flying, while Katakuri did activate his Awakening during the fight.
Luffy's resistance meant nothing. Haki outright ignores that shit and Katakuri was outdoing Luffy's Haki in every instance.
Luffy's resistance meant nothing. Haki outright ignores that shit and Katakuri was outdoing Luffy's Haki in every instance.
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IIRC correctly Katakuri did not use those tricks on Gears 1-3 Luffy. That's chucked up toplot like him not using awakening at the end of their fight.
Haki doesn't ignore it as we've seen with Duffy. Also Katakuri would not have to use Haki against Silver's body and therefore would last longer.
Haki doesn't ignore it as we've seen with Duffy. Also Katakuri would not have to use Haki against Silver's body and therefore would last longer.
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If he didn't then it's not too in-character or he do it once his opponent can fly up (for some reason).
Haki lets the user hit Luffy as if he were a normal person with no rubber physiology. I don't know what are you talking about Doffy.
Haki lets the user hit Luffy as if he were a normal person with no rubber physiology. I don't know what are you talking about Doffy.
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Rayleigh absolutely beats Katakuri.
1. Rayleigh is aware of persons who are capable of seeing the future, he's the one who taught Luffy it exists; he won't be caught offguard by literally Katakuri's singular good route of defense
2. Rayleigh can use advanced Armament Haki as seen in his deflection of the Elephant; the Haki Luffy is currently training for, Rayleigh is masterful in. Katakuri was getting ****** up by lesser Haki hits from Luffy, Rayleigh would be heavily harming him
3. Rayleigh can keep up with AND HARM an Admiral. Nothing Katakuri has showcased remotely implies an ability to contend with this beyond a severely weak 'well Kata might be equivalent to Marco' scaling chain which is shit logic.
4. Rayleigh is absolutely superior to Luffy's hits in Gear 4. Luffy stated his original Gear 4 - Boundman blows weren't potent enough to beat the stronger beasts on the training island: he had to come up with King Kong Gun for the top-tier beasts. Rayleigh seems to imply he himself would struggle none at all on the island, and indeed his advanced techniques/skill seem to back this behavior up.
Rayleigh definitely wins the fight, Katakuri can possibly surprise Rayleigh with his future sight Haki shenanigans but it's stuff Rayleigh won't be absurdly off-put by, and Rayleigh will win in the end.
1. Rayleigh is aware of persons who are capable of seeing the future, he's the one who taught Luffy it exists; he won't be caught offguard by literally Katakuri's singular good route of defense
2. Rayleigh can use advanced Armament Haki as seen in his deflection of the Elephant; the Haki Luffy is currently training for, Rayleigh is masterful in. Katakuri was getting ****** up by lesser Haki hits from Luffy, Rayleigh would be heavily harming him
3. Rayleigh can keep up with AND HARM an Admiral. Nothing Katakuri has showcased remotely implies an ability to contend with this beyond a severely weak 'well Kata might be equivalent to Marco' scaling chain which is shit logic.
4. Rayleigh is absolutely superior to Luffy's hits in Gear 4. Luffy stated his original Gear 4 - Boundman blows weren't potent enough to beat the stronger beasts on the training island: he had to come up with King Kong Gun for the top-tier beasts. Rayleigh seems to imply he himself would struggle none at all on the island, and indeed his advanced techniques/skill seem to back this behavior up.
Rayleigh definitely wins the fight, Katakuri can possibly surprise Rayleigh with his future sight Haki shenanigans but it's stuff Rayleigh won't be absurdly off-put by, and Rayleigh will win in the end.
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- Thread starter
- #54
Katakuri's CoA was superior than Pre-Wano Luffy's, even with him in Gear Fourth. Rayleigh only advantage with CoA is Goken, like Cin sayed. But on the one hand we never see Goken against a living being so I really doubt that it can give an insta-kill on a Top 1 YC.
I'm still curious to know how Rayleigh would handle the powers of Katakuri DF, which ensures both short and long range advantage. Spamming attacks from every direction and so on.
I'm still curious to know how Rayleigh would handle the powers of Katakuri DF, which ensures both short and long range advantage. Spamming attacks from every direction and so on.
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I mena in theory DF do have the standard weaknesses, but those are off the table here meaning its all gravy for Katakuri. Perhaps if there was a massive gap in stats and he had flight then Silvers may have a chance. As it is, Silvers' Goken doesn't matchup to FS + better stamina (Probably better other stats as well) + Every other aded ability Katakuri has in this matchup.Rei Rubro said:
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@Xulrev
1. Aware of it =/= beating it
2. Yea, we've all acknowledged Goken is the one technique he has over Katakuri. Its about being able to bypass some defenses as opposed to being more powerful.
3. They have the same scaling, move on.
4 Silvers=gear 4 Luffy at the time doesn't change his rating.
1. Aware of it =/= beating it
2. Yea, we've all acknowledged Goken is the one technique he has over Katakuri. Its about being able to bypass some defenses as opposed to being more powerful.
3. They have the same scaling, move on.
4 Silvers=gear 4 Luffy at the time doesn't change his rating.
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How on earth does Katakuri scale to Marco? They're both Yonko Commanders, so what?
Titles don't mean a single thing in-universe, Garp is an Admiral-level fighter and more while being a simple Vice-Admiral, so Dr. Fix, I insist on explicit proof of Charlotte Katakuri being equivalent to Marco the Phoenix in battle prowess.
I'll wait a while for your evidence, since it likely will be a few years before chapters come out to even hint at such scaling being valid.
Titles don't mean a single thing in-universe, Garp is an Admiral-level fighter and more while being a simple Vice-Admiral, so Dr. Fix, I insist on explicit proof of Charlotte Katakuri being equivalent to Marco the Phoenix in battle prowess.
I'll wait a while for your evidence, since it likely will be a few years before chapters come out to even hint at such scaling being valid.
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Garp is clearly an exception, he literally states he only wants to stay Vice Admiral due to vacation time.
If you want to go that route Katakuri has no evidence of him scaling to an actual admiral so Marco would scale above him as he attacked multiple admirals and walked away unscathed at Marineford.
If you want to go that route Katakuri has no evidence of him scaling to an actual admiral so Marco would scale above him as he attacked multiple admirals and walked away unscathed at Marineford.
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Thats the evidence.
Katakuri No admiral only luffy
Marco Multiple admirals
Marco>Katakuri
My point was Evidence>Titles only works because Garp is an exception. Literally everyone else is comparable within titles.
Katakuri No admiral only luffy
Marco Multiple admirals
Marco>Katakuri
My point was Evidence>Titles only works because Garp is an exception. Literally everyone else is comparable within titles.
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Katakuri > WCI Lufy (Gear 4th) >>> Doflamingo > Jozu < Aokiji
The level difference between Luffy and Doffy (Who can casually stop people like Jozu and trade blows with Crocodile) is big and yet Katakuri easily stepped on Luffy's face. It's stupid to think that Katakuri is not at least comparable than others Top 1 YC such as Marco.
The level difference between Luffy and Doffy (Who can casually stop people like Jozu and trade blows with Crocodile) is big and yet Katakuri easily stepped on Luffy's face. It's stupid to think that Katakuri is not at least comparable than others Top 1 YC such as Marco.
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Jozu only attack Aokiji with a surprise attack and gets one-shoted after that. Doflamingo managed to get rid of Kuzan's Frost-Bite with minimal effort, something that Jozu couldn't do. Besides, he paralyzed Jozu without any difficulty, it is clear to me who is the strongest between they both.
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Jozu was fighting Aokiji for a decent amount of time, it's not a one shot, plus it only happened because Jozu got distracted. Jozu getting frozen was clearly different to Doflamingos. Ultimately Jozu has far better feats than Doffy (fighting an admiral and deflecting an attack from Mihawk) This is irrelevant to the thread anyway
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How can you can say "decent amount of time" if they battle occour off-screen? Time ins't something showed to us. Jozu getting distracted don't change results and even facing one of Mihawk's attacks he still was stopped by Doffy with a single finger. The power gap may be low but I still see Doflamingo being stronger.
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That's why i said "decent" amount of time, just giving a vague estimate but it was an extended period. Jozu getting distracted is literally the reason he got defeated. Him getting stopped by Doffy means very little, can be easily considered PIS and again it's one small scene which happened whilst Jozu was focused on Crocodile. No evidence at all to suggest he could do the same if Jozu was aware of him. There's many instances of weaker characters stopping or clashing with characters far stronger than them.
We're derailing so I'll just agree to disagree
We're derailing so I'll just agree to disagree
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If it wasn't for range, I'd be decisive on Rayleigh being the victor mid/high diff, but due to that disadvantage, and Kata possibly having a CoO advantage, Rayleigh's only chance is Goken and potential superior feats against characters (giving him slightly higher AP/Dura if that's the case).
I'm still on Rayleigh winning, but I just got triggered by @VioleLFC and @Rei over here.
@Vio - You say Aokiji is >>>x1000 Doflamingo based off of what? Doflamingo walking away from a pointless fight with a high-tier of the verse suddenly makes him super weak? Jozu couldn't do anything to get out of Doflamingo's hold, yet Gear 4th Luffy could very easily, and Doflamingo still put up a good fight against him that resulted in both being KO'd for days. Aokiji's powers (even if it were casual, which there's evidence supporting the contrary) didn't even hurt Doflamingo, whereas Jozu was incapacitated and lost his arm from it. Doflamingo was only stunned by the fact that Aokiji showed up for no reason, and then proceeded to try and kill Smoker despite being disadvantaged by the fact that Aokiji was in his blind-spot and had the initiative.
Now, if we're talking about Luffy after acquiring Goken post-Udon training... I can't really argue for Doflamingo as Luffy can seemingly use KKG on a whim and also has Goken to fall back on. It still wouldn't be an easy fight though, as I highly doubt a healthy Doffy would be one-shot by KKG unless Luffy was implementing Goken to destroy Doffy from the inside.
IMO: Luffy (Post-Udon) > Doflamingo/Kata >/= Luffy (Post WCI) > Luffy (Dressrosa)
I'm still on Rayleigh winning, but I just got triggered by @VioleLFC and @Rei over here.
@Vio - You say Aokiji is >>>x1000 Doflamingo based off of what? Doflamingo walking away from a pointless fight with a high-tier of the verse suddenly makes him super weak? Jozu couldn't do anything to get out of Doflamingo's hold, yet Gear 4th Luffy could very easily, and Doflamingo still put up a good fight against him that resulted in both being KO'd for days. Aokiji's powers (even if it were casual, which there's evidence supporting the contrary) didn't even hurt Doflamingo, whereas Jozu was incapacitated and lost his arm from it. Doflamingo was only stunned by the fact that Aokiji showed up for no reason, and then proceeded to try and kill Smoker despite being disadvantaged by the fact that Aokiji was in his blind-spot and had the initiative.
- You really think Doflamingo is stupid enough to try and go for killing Smoker if he was so much weaker than Aokiji?
Now, if we're talking about Luffy after acquiring Goken post-Udon training... I can't really argue for Doflamingo as Luffy can seemingly use KKG on a whim and also has Goken to fall back on. It still wouldn't be an easy fight though, as I highly doubt a healthy Doffy would be one-shot by KKG unless Luffy was implementing Goken to destroy Doffy from the inside.
IMO: Luffy (Post-Udon) > Doflamingo/Kata >/= Luffy (Post WCI) > Luffy (Dressrosa)
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@Cin
1. Aokiji's power against Doffy left Doffy heavily panting, an indication of harm from a very small exertion of his ice.
2. Jozu only lost an arm due to being dropped whilst carried off the battlefield. I don't think that is comparable for up-playing Doffy, honestly, considering Jozu was frozen whilst explicitly offguard (Aokiji even commented upon it) as opposed to Doffy who knew Aokiji was going to interfere due to, well, Aokiji stating as such.
3. Luffy got out of Parasite via rapid expansion of his body, whereas Jozu was caught offguard from behind and in mid-swing; you can't get torque to break free from that position, whereas Luffy could gain it via the expansion.
Just a few points on that discussion
1. Aokiji's power against Doffy left Doffy heavily panting, an indication of harm from a very small exertion of his ice.
2. Jozu only lost an arm due to being dropped whilst carried off the battlefield. I don't think that is comparable for up-playing Doffy, honestly, considering Jozu was frozen whilst explicitly offguard (Aokiji even commented upon it) as opposed to Doffy who knew Aokiji was going to interfere due to, well, Aokiji stating as such.
3. Luffy got out of Parasite via rapid expansion of his body, whereas Jozu was caught offguard from behind and in mid-swing; you can't get torque to break free from that position, whereas Luffy could gain it via the expansion.
Just a few points on that discussion
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They were both injured as Oda wrote a couple times over to disuade that argument. regardless this is way off-topic. Anyone is of course free to open a CRT (should go without saying but just in case) yet for the purposes of this thread they are equal. Any votes which play on Silvers being way more powerful do not count. Need to look at abilities for the deciding factor and Katakuri is winning that hands down.
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Im exaggerating with x1000 obviously but he is far superior as he's a near equal to Akainu (self explanatory as to why that makes him way stronger) Aokiji was definitely casual, didn't move at all and had his hands in his pockets. If he could do that so nonchalantly, imagine if he exerted actual effort
Current Luffy > Katakuri > Doflamingo >= WCI Luffy > Dressrosa Luffy
Current Luffy > Katakuri > Doflamingo >= WCI Luffy > Dressrosa Luffy
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Kakakuri for reasons above.
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@Xulrev -
1) Yes, but there was no visible damage to his body. Panting could easily be explained away by 2 reasons: 1) Ice covering his whole body leaves him unable to breathe or 2) The intense cold mildly affected him. Either way, he was not damaged by Aokiji in this manner.
2) Jozu lost his arm simply from falling over. It doesn't change the fact that he could not break free where Doflamingo could.
3) In the manga, it's not very questionable how Luffy got out, and due to his position, he seems to have done something identical to the anime in this case, and pulled the threads apart with a flex. Again, this doesn't help Jozu's case in the slightest, where he couldn't even resist Doflamingo's hold.
Regarding Rayleigh and Katakuri: Even if Katakuri has Danmaku and can attack from multiple directions, Rayleigh's usage of Goken can at the very least circumvent the attacks from one side at a time (unless we find out Goken can be expanded at all directions, in which case, Katakuri can't even touch Rayleigh until he breaks his barrier) And to reiterate: Rayleigh is at least durable enough to tank hits from Katakuri directly even if he fails to block/evade. One hit from Goken will severely damage or even kill Katakuri.
1) Yes, but there was no visible damage to his body. Panting could easily be explained away by 2 reasons: 1) Ice covering his whole body leaves him unable to breathe or 2) The intense cold mildly affected him. Either way, he was not damaged by Aokiji in this manner.
2) Jozu lost his arm simply from falling over. It doesn't change the fact that he could not break free where Doflamingo could.
3) In the manga, it's not very questionable how Luffy got out, and due to his position, he seems to have done something identical to the anime in this case, and pulled the threads apart with a flex. Again, this doesn't help Jozu's case in the slightest, where he couldn't even resist Doflamingo's hold.
- Also, not Parasito in either case. The application of his direct manipulation and parasito are very obviously different.
Regarding Rayleigh and Katakuri: Even if Katakuri has Danmaku and can attack from multiple directions, Rayleigh's usage of Goken can at the very least circumvent the attacks from one side at a time (unless we find out Goken can be expanded at all directions, in which case, Katakuri can't even touch Rayleigh until he breaks his barrier) And to reiterate: Rayleigh is at least durable enough to tank hits from Katakuri directly even if he fails to block/evade. One hit from Goken will severely damage or even kill Katakuri.
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@Rei - Katakuri certainly did not stomp Gear 4th Luffy. You call him getting battered before requiring his Kenbunshoku to gain an advantage (the fight lasting until Luffy needed to run due to his timer) a stomp?
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>>Regarding Rayleigh and Katakuri: Even if Katakuri has Danmaku and can attack from multiple directions, Rayleigh's usage of Goken can at the very least circumvent the attacks from one side at a time (unless we find out Goken can be expanded at all directions, in which case, Katakuri can't even touch Rayleigh until he breaks his barrier) And to reiterate: Rayleigh is at least durable enough to tank hits from Katakuri directly even if he fails to block/evade. One hit from Goken will severely damage or even kill Katakuri.
Goken is completely unproven in battle at this point. I'm not saying its weak, I'm just saying don't put so much blind faith into something. If Rayleigh uses his barrier it is as you said a partial barrier and he gets crushed from the otherside. That's assuming the barrier is strong enough to handle a danmaku, which I'm not sure it can with so many attacks. Also if he uses his barriers he is consuming haki and he needs every bit of it to be able to harm katakuri. Once he runs out he's virtually powerless against him.
I guess what I don't understand @Cin, is why you put so much blind faith into something we haven't seen while not even mentioning all of Katakuri's additional bonuses and how Silvers will handle them?
BASE VS BASE Katakuri would eventually win via stamina
Silvers has Goken but he doesn't really need dur negation against someone he's equal to.
Katakuri has FS which is a perfect counter to Goken and continues to be of benefit to him afterwards.
So just based on that Katakuri should win with less difficulty than just base for base. However, katakuri still has many many MANY abilities to further widen the gap between them.
FS+Stamina+Range+Many DF abilities>>>>>Goken until I see it used to amazign effect in battle.
Goken is completely unproven in battle at this point. I'm not saying its weak, I'm just saying don't put so much blind faith into something. If Rayleigh uses his barrier it is as you said a partial barrier and he gets crushed from the otherside. That's assuming the barrier is strong enough to handle a danmaku, which I'm not sure it can with so many attacks. Also if he uses his barriers he is consuming haki and he needs every bit of it to be able to harm katakuri. Once he runs out he's virtually powerless against him.
I guess what I don't understand @Cin, is why you put so much blind faith into something we haven't seen while not even mentioning all of Katakuri's additional bonuses and how Silvers will handle them?
BASE VS BASE Katakuri would eventually win via stamina
Silvers has Goken but he doesn't really need dur negation against someone he's equal to.
Katakuri has FS which is a perfect counter to Goken and continues to be of benefit to him afterwards.
So just based on that Katakuri should win with less difficulty than just base for base. However, katakuri still has many many MANY abilities to further widen the gap between them.
FS+Stamina+Range+Many DF abilities>>>>>Goken until I see it used to amazign effect in battle.
Oh man, two great characters, but i'll on Kata FRA.
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@Fix - I'm not putting any blind faith in anything. I'm actually using what is known, but merely pointed out that if Goken could be manifested around the user, then he has a major counter for Danmaku/AoE.
Anyways, for each advantage of Katakuri:
1) FS is something Luffy pre-FS could still cope with despite being inferior to Katakuri (seeing as how he could hold his own for an extended period despite his every move being read). It's not like Rayleigh would be unable to dodge or land hits if he too is a user of Observation. His magnitude is unknown but it's so clear he has some level of precognition and sensory abilities from his demonstration. To assume he is only equal or even inferior to Luffy pre-WCI would be pretty ridiculous as he instructed him in the ability for months before walking off.
2) Stamina... While I agree that age could be a factor against Rayleigh, his only showing of being phased was against Kizaru, who he was hard-pressed fighting from the start. He seemed quite calm by the end of the fight minus some sweat drops and heavier breathing (and the moment they broke off, he was perfectly fine).
4) DF abilities - Yes, this affords Katakuri many options for attack.
I say only 3 and 4 are definitive advantages for Katakuri. 1 is there, but it hardly matters if we know Rayleigh has performed feats even remotely comparable.
It's basically indisputable that Rayleigh is superior in CoA due to his showings and being confirmed to be a user of Goken, so anything Katakuri CAN do with CoA, Rayleigh WILL overpower--this goes for offensive power, defense, and dura negation via Goken as mentioned before.
If anything, it's the following advantages:
Rayleigh: Offensive power (via Goken, and superior Armament Haki), Defense (via Goken, and superior Armament Haki), Dura Negation (Via Goken)
Katakuri: Future-sight (Minor as Rayleigh has a form of this, though arguably inferior), Range, Versatility.
Anyways, for each advantage of Katakuri:
1) FS is something Luffy pre-FS could still cope with despite being inferior to Katakuri (seeing as how he could hold his own for an extended period despite his every move being read). It's not like Rayleigh would be unable to dodge or land hits if he too is a user of Observation. His magnitude is unknown but it's so clear he has some level of precognition and sensory abilities from his demonstration. To assume he is only equal or even inferior to Luffy pre-WCI would be pretty ridiculous as he instructed him in the ability for months before walking off.
2) Stamina... While I agree that age could be a factor against Rayleigh, his only showing of being phased was against Kizaru, who he was hard-pressed fighting from the start. He seemed quite calm by the end of the fight minus some sweat drops and heavier breathing (and the moment they broke off, he was perfectly fine).
- I doubt Rayleigh is disadvantaged here since he can swim across the calm belt for thousands of kilometers and killing sea kings for sport without getting tired.
4) DF abilities - Yes, this affords Katakuri many options for attack.
I say only 3 and 4 are definitive advantages for Katakuri. 1 is there, but it hardly matters if we know Rayleigh has performed feats even remotely comparable.
It's basically indisputable that Rayleigh is superior in CoA due to his showings and being confirmed to be a user of Goken, so anything Katakuri CAN do with CoA, Rayleigh WILL overpower--this goes for offensive power, defense, and dura negation via Goken as mentioned before.
If anything, it's the following advantages:
Rayleigh: Offensive power (via Goken, and superior Armament Haki), Defense (via Goken, and superior Armament Haki), Dura Negation (Via Goken)
Katakuri: Future-sight (Minor as Rayleigh has a form of this, though arguably inferior), Range, Versatility.
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1)Luffy dealt with it by being a glorified punching bag. He couldn't counter it so there is no objective reason Silvers would either. He would have to last long enough for him to attain this skill from Katakuri like Luffy did. Trouble is ihe he can last that long without plot armor, blunt force resistance, and a young body among other things. I don't see him lasting but let's say there was a chance he does, then Katakuri wil also gain Goken from Silvers. That would make things worse for Silvers since Katakuri's use could be superior if he fires goken from a dozen hands.
2) Swimming =/= fighting.
You conceded on 3 & 4 so I'll pass on those.
>>Goken & Superior Adamanet Haki
Goken is adamanet haki. you cannot count the same power twice.
As I said, base for base Katakuri wins via being a first mate in his prime, while Silvers is decades past his.
Adding Haki Katakuri still wins since Goken won't even be connecting and isn't very useful here. Ray can use his shields but from what we have seen they won't cover enough and each time he does so will drain his haki.
Add to that Katakuri has far better range, fire manipulation, explosion manipulation, intangibility, Regenerationn, large size, stats enhancement, shapeshifting, mimicry, transmutation, smothering, sealing, and probably a few other talents I'm forgetting and this should be a win by any margin of error.
2) Swimming =/= fighting.
You conceded on 3 & 4 so I'll pass on those.
>>Goken & Superior Adamanet Haki
Goken is adamanet haki. you cannot count the same power twice.
As I said, base for base Katakuri wins via being a first mate in his prime, while Silvers is decades past his.
Adding Haki Katakuri still wins since Goken won't even be connecting and isn't very useful here. Ray can use his shields but from what we have seen they won't cover enough and each time he does so will drain his haki.
Add to that Katakuri has far better range, fire manipulation, explosion manipulation, intangibility, Regenerationn, large size, stats enhancement, shapeshifting, mimicry, transmutation, smothering, sealing, and probably a few other talents I'm forgetting and this should be a win by any margin of error.
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