Chainsaw Man discussion thread

[GunshyFever]

We’ve already discussed that not all devils display the same level of destructive capacity, and I’ve shown clear examples like the Darkness Devil. Another prime example would be Pochita, who hasn’t shown anything close to the Gun Devil’s feats in terms of DC, yet is evidently stronger than it. This alone demonstrates why raw destructive feats don’t hold as much weight when it comes to fear scaling devils (or contract users?). Fear isn’t quantified by DC, it’s about the nature of the concept a devil embodies.

As for your claim that the 20% Gun Devil’s fear level is above Santa Claus’s, I’d argue the opposite. Her reach spans multiple dolls worldwide and as she describes herself, she’s merely "a drop of blood in an ocean" when compared to the magnitude of her entire doll network. That global level of fear and range is arguably worse than the localized terror caused by the 20% Gun Devil. Even in recent chapters, the ongoing fear surrounding the Chainsaw Man war is likely less oppressive than the nature of Santa’s influence. On top of that, Santa’s say's her self that everything she keeps coming back, shell be even more powerful due to her cultivating the power of Darkness. The 20% Gun Devil by contrast, is a massive weapon of destruction, yes, but fundamentally static in its nature.

Your point about the Gun Devil killing Makima is irrelevant because Makima has died the exact same way to regular guns. Using this as an anti-feat for Makima is meaningless unless your trying to shoot for 10-B Makima. What matters here isn’t Fujimoto isn't a powerscaler.

Just because Santa isn’t the size of a mountain or moving at lightning speed doesn’t mean her AP can’t be relative to the Gun Devil. As I’ve said before, Chainsaw Man operates on concepts of fear scaling, not feats alone.

 

[Zabazab]

Scaling Santa, Makima, and Quanxi to even 20% of the Gun Devil is silly. First of all they have no traditional scaling to the Gun. Secondly there's no way to actually quantify the fear scaling between them due to lack of statements— we can't know how feared Guns are relative to Conquest unless the manga tells us. We can't know how strong Darkness Santa is relative to Darkness itself because empowerment via eating devil fragments does not work that way.

 

[GunshyFever]

Scaling Santa, Makima, and Quanxi to even 20% of the Gun Devil is silly. First of all they have no traditional scaling to the Gun. Secondly there's no way to actually quantify the fear scaling between them due to lack of statements— we can't know how feared Guns are relative to Conquest unless the manga tells us. We can't know how strong Darkness Santa is relative to Darkness itself because empowerment via eating devil fragments does not work that way.

Not every devil’s strength comes from how much damage they can physically cause, it often ties directly to their concept and how fear of that concept manifests. For example, the Gun Devil is clearly a destructive force because it represents firearms and mass violence. Its abilities make sense because it’s tied to the fear of guns and their catastrophic potential. But not every devil is built for that same kind of large, scale destruction and that doesn’t mean they’re weaker in terms of AP.

Take Primal Devils, like the Darkness Devil (specifically). It doesn’t have any massive destruction feats to its name, yet it’s clearly portrayed as stronger than the Gun Devil. Why? Because it represents the instinctive fear of darkness, which goes beyond physical destruction. Its strength relies on its concept, and that’s where its power lies primarily as such for every Devil. The same can be said for Makima, who represents Conquest. Her abilities don’t revolve around mass destruction but rather dominating/controlling others. That kind of concept doesn’t need raw destructive power to be terrifying.

You mentioned that the Gun Devil’s threat was more widely known among civilians compared to Makima’s influence. Sure, the Gun Devil’s destruction was immediate and visible regarding that it wiped out 1.3 million people in five mins. But Makima’s power which is the fear of control isn’t about destruction as ive said earlier, it’s about the dread of losing your freedom, of being dominated by something you can’t fight back against. That kind of fear is harder to measure, but it’s powerful nonetheless. It’s the same reason the Primal Devils are stronger, they embody fears that are harder to define but instinctively felt in the day to day lives of humans.

Ultimately tho, not every devil is meant to be compared based on how much damage they can physically do. The Gun Devil is a weapon of mass destruction, but devils like Makima, Santa Claus or the DD operate on completely different. Their power isn’t about DC, it’s about how their abilities reflect their concepts. Scaling them fairly means taking this into account instead of just focusing on raw feats. The narrative makes it clear that strength is as much about the specific concept and how much it is feared.

Hence they should still scale regardless, primarily because of fear scaling.

Edit: Hence x2, the very existence of Devils should be constantly powering up Makima.

 

[Zabazab]

Scaling Santa, Makima, and Quanxi to even 20% of the Gun Devil is silly. First of all they have no traditional scaling to the Gun. Secondly there's no way to actually quantify the fear scaling between them due to lack of statements— we can't know how feared Guns are relative to Conquest unless the manga tells us. We can't know how strong Darkness Santa is relative to Darkness itself because empowerment via eating devil fragments does not work that way.

 

[ElajRuengies]

We’ve already discussed that not all devils display the same level of destructive capacity, and I’ve shown clear examples like the Darkness Devil. Another prime example would be Pochita, who hasn’t shown anything close to the Gun Devil’s feats in terms of DC, yet is evidently stronger than it. This alone demonstrates why raw destructive feats don’t hold as much weight when it comes to fear scaling devils (or contract users?). Fear isn’t quantified by DC, it’s about the nature of the concept a devil embodies.

Yeah, DC doesn't matter. Except for the parts like Falling causing global cave-ins and landslides, the Gun Goddess chucking a car-sized fingertip from New York to Tokyo, or Aging having its own f*cking world.

Strong devils and the Primals are totally all chills, hype, and aura, with no DC to be found.

As for your claim that the 20% Gun Devil’s fear level is above Santa Claus’s, I’d argue the opposite. Her reach spans multiple dolls worldwide and as she describes herself, she’s merely "a drop of blood in an ocean" when compared to the magnitude of her entire doll network.

1.3 million people dead in five minutes.

That global level of fear and range is arguably worse than the localized terror caused by the 20% Gun Devil.

20% Gun's local rampage isn't the main source of its strength.

Again, 1.3 million people dead around the planet in only five minutes.

Even in recent chapters, the ongoing fear surrounding the Chainsaw Man war is likely less oppressive than the nature of Santa’s influence.

Bullshit. Three-hundred and fifty thousand people globally turned into chainsaw-headed zombies.

On top of that, Santa’s say's her self that everything she keeps coming back, shell be even more powerful due to her cultivating the power of Darkness. The 20% Gun Devil by contrast, is a massive weapon of destruction, yes, but fundamentally static in its nature.

Static my foot, the Gun Devil's existence caused countries to ban firearms around the world, except that actually governments were sponsoring acts of violence using guns globally to strengthen their pieces of the Gun Devil.

Also- ONE-POINT-THREE MILLION GODDAMN PEOPLE DEAD, IN ONLY. FIVE. MINUTES.

Your point about the Gun Devil killing Makima is irrelevant because Makima has died the exact same way to regular guns. Using this as an anti-feat for Makima is meaningless unless your trying to shoot for 10-B Makima. What matters here isn’t Fujimoto isn't a powerscaler.

I don't think you need to be a powerscaler to know that Hybrid Quanxi having comparable power to Little Boy, when the lack of nuclear arms have resulted in countries stockpiling up pieces of the Gun Devil, is stupid.

Just because Santa isn’t the size of a mountain or moving at lightning speed doesn’t mean her AP can’t be relative to the Gun Devil. As I’ve said before, Chainsaw Man operates on concepts of fear scaling, not feats alone.

And even conceptually, Santa doesn't have shit on the thing that was driving the plot of Part 1 for the first three-fourths of the story.

 

[GunshyFever]

Secondly there's no way to actually quantify the fear scaling between them due to lack of statements— we can't know how feared Guns are relative to Conquest unless the manga tells us.

This is false, we already have enough rooted evidence of where the fear of Guns and Conquest stand on their own. Not to mention that this is only 20% of the Gun Devil and not the full embodiment of the said concept.

 

[ElajRuengies]

This is false, we already have enough rooted evidence of where the fear of Guns and Conquest stand on their own. Not to mention that this is only 20% of the Gun Devil and not the full embodiment of the said concept.

See, in a vacuum I could accept Makima (and only Makima) being physically stronger than 20% Gun thanks to what they represent, but there's too many problems that creates thanks to other characters.

You can type out as many paragraphs as you want Gunshy, but getting Quanxi to 7-C needs a CRT, and no staff member's who's read Chainsaw Man is gonna accept it.

 

[Alexander]

and so well, they don't stop coming, and they don't stop coming, and they don't stop coming, and they don't stop coming, and they don't stop coming, and they don't stop coming, and they don't stop coming, and they don't stop coming, and they don't stop coming, and they don't stop coming, and they don't stop coming, and they don't stop coming, and they don't stop coming, and they don't stop coming, and they don't stop coming, and they don't stop coming, and they don't stop coming

 

[Zabazab]

Again 1.3 million people dead around the planet in only five minutes.

Remember it did this when it was only fueled by the fear of guns. Nobody had ever heard of a Gun Devil. It killed 1.3 million as an opening act. Afterwards, everyone on earth lived in terror of the Gun Devil to such a degrèe that international laws were enacted and the fear of devils as a whole rose making them all stronger.

This is false, we already have enough rooted evidence of where the fear of Guns and Conquest stand on their own.

There isn't. If there was then this wouldn't be a debate. I know for a fact that the only thing that can be milked for Makima's fear scaling is "Fearing and strengthening Makima is nothing less than the history of humanity." which, while hype, is clearly non-literal. If it was literal she'd be on par with Primal Fears, not decide that Chainsaw Man is an undefeatable opponent.

 

[ElajRuengies]

Remember it did this when it was only fueled by the fear of guns. Nobody had ever heard of a Gun Devil. It killed 1.3 million as an opening act. Afterwards, everyone on earth lived in terror of the Gun Devil to such a degrèe that international laws were enacted and the fear of devils as a whole rose making them all stronger.

It's even better, governments were actually sponsoring acts of gun violence in secret to strengthen their pieces of the Gun Devil!

Also, while fear of government and loss of free will is definitely something most people are afraid of, most people also have an aversion to firearms. Not like the Gun Devil is only feared as an individual, it's up there with Knives and Needles in the named-after-bad-thing metric.

 

[GunshyFever]

Mega-Snip

It really doesn’t matter when we’re talking about the physical power of a devil. For instance, the Primal Devils like Darkness don’t rely on destructive feats to prove their superiority. Their strength stems from their concept, which operates differently depending on the devil. I’ve already used the Darkness Devil as an example and the same logic applies here. Now, let’s not forget that we’re discussing 20% of the Gun Devil’s power, not its full strength. If you’re trying to compare Nighttime Santa to the Gun Devil at 100% and his full body and weapon destruction feats, I don’t think we’re even on the same page here.

As for Santa Claus, the scale of her influence is far larger than you’re giving credit for. When she describes herself as "a drop of blood in an ocean," that suggests an incomprehensible level of reach and scale. We’re not talking about one localized event but a global network of dolls, each capable of causing devastation with a mere touch. The potential for growth in her power is also something we can’t ignore. If anything, this comparison highlights how fear manifests differently in these devils and Santa’s potential scaling is far from unrealistic.

And about Quanxi, she can have the power of a thematic bomb, not the destruction of one. That’s a critical distinction. Her strength doesn’t have to be tied to blowing up cities or causing widespread destruction to be effective. Thematic representation and physical destruction are two different things and the manga often focuses on the former rather than the latter. This nuance is what makes the scaling make sense when you consider how the series operates conceptually.

See, in a vacuum I could accept Makima (and only Makima) being physically stronger than 20% Gun thanks to what they represent, but there's too many problems that creates thanks to other characters.

You can type out as many paragraphs as you want Gunshy, but getting Makima to 7-C physically needs a CRT, and no staff member's who's read Chainsaw Man is gonna accept it.

I also believe so, but, I'm also inclined the believe the same for those who do scale to Makima. Both have status and scaling which should respectively get them on that level. (This does not mean they would win against the 20% Gun, just that they are relative in physical power, if Quanxi shot arrows at the gun It would be similar to getting an ant bite.)

There isn't. If there was then this wouldn't be a debate. I know for a fact that the only thing that can be milked for Makima's fear scaling is "Fearing and strengthening Makima is nothing less than the history of humanity." which, while hype, is clearly non-literal. If it was literal she'd be on par with Primal Fears, not decide that Chainsaw Man is an undefeatable opponent.

Though I fully understand where you're coming from, I used to see it the same way, but, the very existence of devils inherently empowers Makima. Even the Gun Devil contributes to her strength. Why? Because the Gun Devil is essentially a natural disaster, one that forces humans to surrender and be dominated by its sheer power. That concept, humans being at the mercy of a stronger being is literally the essence of Makima's identity as the Control Devil. The way humans fear the Gun Devil, or any devil for that matter, stems from the same root: the fear of losing their life to a force beyond their control.

 

[ElajRuengies]

It really doesn’t matter when we’re talking about the physical power of a devil. For instance, the Primal Devils like Darkness don’t rely on destructive feats to prove their superiority. Their strength stems from their concept, which operates differently depending on the devil. I’ve already used the Darkness Devil as an example and the same logic applies here.

And, and you're only using Darkness because the other two Primal Fears have significant DC thanks to their concept that undermines your point about conceptual strength being totally unrelated to DC.

Also Darkness literally blotted out all light til at least the horizon, which is a minimum of City Block level absorption every single second just passively.

Now, let’s not forget that we’re discussing 20% of the Gun Devil’s power, not its full strength. If you’re trying to compare Nighttime Santa to the Gun Devil at 100% and his full body and weapon destruction feats, I don’t think we’re even on the same page here.

I'm using the Gun Devil's first rampage, which subsequently made it feared, as a reference point for the standard of fear that Santa does not live up to, and why- combined with the sheer difference in portrayal- scaling Santa above 20% Gun is bad.

As for Santa Claus, the scale of her influence is far larger than you’re giving credit for. When she describes herself as "a drop of blood in an ocean," that suggests an incomprehensible level of reach and scale. We’re not talking about one localized event but a global network of dolls, each capable of causing devastation with a mere touch.

Funny how you take her statement of her own capacities from the scene where Cosmo tells Santa that she doesn't know jack shit.

And while each doll could cause havoc at any point, to the uninformed civilian, the Gun Devil could come back at any point too- or a mass shooting could break out at any point. The mental influence of both the Gun Devil and guns in general is greater than Santa's.

The potential for growth in her power is also something we can’t ignore. If anything, this comparison highlights how fear manifests differently in these devils and Santa’s potential scaling is far from unrealistic.

Potential Woman would be a future problem. We're talking about her scaling when she fought Denji.

And about Quanxi, she can have the power of a thematic bomb, not the destruction of one.

No she doesn't- also kilotons aren't "thematic" bombs, that's "thematic" nukes. And even thematically Quanxi is not comparable to a nuke, because Quanxi's use by her government is not analogous to governments deploying a nuke. You what is thematically compared to the nuclear arms race? Countries hoarding pieces of the Gun Devil.

That’s a critical distinction. Her strength doesn’t have to be tied to blowing up cities or causing widespread destruction to be effective.

Yeah, because her competition isn't that strong either.

Thematic representation and physical destruction are two different things and the manga often focuses on the former rather than the latter. This nuance is what makes the scaling make sense when you consider how the series operates conceptually.

Except that it doesn't. I really dislike how you're using "thematic representation."

Thematically Nayuta is Denji's biological child thanks to Makima violating his personal space, telling him to strip, and doing something that left him dazed on her bed.

Thematically Barem is a salty Chainsaw Man Part 1 fan who thinks Makima did nothing wrong, and wants to see Denji goring and dying against opponents regardless of his character.

Thematically, Quanxi and Santa are two sides of Ignorance vs. Knowledge whose ironic fates reflect this. Quanxi becomes brainwashed into being Makima's obedient dog, while Santa has her brain overfilled with all knowledge in the cosmos.

Santa and Quanxi are NOT "thematically" nukes.

I also believe so, but, I'm also inclined the believe the same for those who do scale to Makima. Both have status and scaling which should respectively get them on that level.

They don't have nuke-analogous status. Pieces of the Gun Devil have nuke-analogous status. Quanxi isn't China's nuke, China's 11% of the Gun Devil is their Nuke.

You don't deploy a nuke to assassinate someone like the Brothers, Quanxi, or Santa, you deploy a nuke when there's no other option left and as a result cause an absurd loss of life in collateral damage.

(This does not mean they would win against the 20% Gun, just that they are relative in physical power, if Quanxi shot arrows at the gun It would be similar to getting an ant bite.)

Wow, I didn't know you were relative in physical power to an ant. I'm sorry I've been ignorant of you exerting yourself to near death typing these messages. (Ants don't have shit on people, much like how Quanxi doesn't have shit on 20% Gun. Any damage would be thanks to piercing damage.)

Though I fully understand where you're coming from, I used to see it the same way, but, the very existence of devils inherently empowers Makima. Even the Gun Devil contributes to her strength. Why? Because the Gun Devil is essentially a natural disaster, one that forces humans to surrender and be dominated by its sheer power.

People can't be conquered by natural disasters, they're conquered by other people.

That concept, humans being at the mercy of a stronger being is literally the essence of Makima's identity as the Control Devil. The way humans fear the Gun Devil, or any devil for that matter, stems from the same root: the fear of losing their life to a force beyond their control.

I get it, but that doesn't remove the anti-feats or scaling problems it causes. Neither visually nor thematically are Quanxi and Santa comparable to 20% Gun, and Makima is too close in power to them to scale to/above 20% Gun as a result.

 

[GunshyFever]

Fair, I concede. This discussion was probably needed tho, just for clearance and everyone's thoughts on it. (We return to the 8-A agenda 🗣)

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

Eh... I just reread the whole Santa fight, and I got things to say.

Firstly, Santa is strong because of her doll power and the regen and stats boosts she gained from darkness (mainly regen obviously). Other than that, all I see is large building level pre-nightime Santa with reaction speed that isn't enough to even perceive Quanxi and dura that isn't enough to tank any of Quanxi's hit and many times stronger nightime Santa with speed that is superior than Quanxi, BUT in terms of sheer physical strength, Nightime Santa has only ever displayed physical strength feats that is comparable to Denji, with Dura that is slightly better than him (but still can't handle his Chainsaws), her AP is comparable to Denji's dura because she has never seriously hurt Denji.

And if we're having Quanxi joining in the calc chain here, then I would say that Quanxi ain't anything compare to Gun Devil 20%, so no, Santa ain't Town level anytime soon.

That's all I got to say, she clearly doesn't have anything to scale her to Town level by herself. Unless we're going Town level Denji, then the only Town level Denji plausible is post-fear boosted Denji, which we have no proof yet.

 

[ElajRuengies]

Fair, I concede. This discussion was probably needed tho, just for clearance and everyone's thoughts on it.

Cool. That was a million times more enjoyable than whoever was trying to scale Makima to Pochita based on one badly interpreted statement. I actually had to think to respond to your points!

(We return to the 8-A agenda 🗣)

... I might actually have a way of getting Hybrid Quanxi to upscale to 8-A physically, but it also results in City Block level+ Kobeni's knife.

See how Quanxi and Miri's Public Safety Uniforms aren't damaged besides the part Pochita sawed through? Yeah...

 

[GunshyFever]

Cool. That was a million times more enjoyable than whoever was trying to scale Makima to Pochita based on one badly interpreted statement. I actually had to think to respond to your points!

Agreed, it's been a while since I've had a fun/genuine discussion/debate, whilst also getting my thoughts addressed and understood!

... I might actually have a way of getting Hybrid Quanxi to upscale to 8-A physically, but it also results in City Block level+ Kobeni's knife.

See how Quanxi and Miri's Public Safety Uniforms aren't damaged besides the part Pochita sawed through? Yeah...

I mean...Miri is just wearing a regular jacket, no? If he's not then just maybe.

 

[Zabazab]

**** these uniforms.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

I mean...Miri is just wearing a regular jacket, no? If he's not then just maybe.

Regular jacket upscales

Chain scaling: Pochita's Chainsaw >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pub Sec Uni >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regular jacket > Pochita's kick
Easy powerscaling

 

[ElajRuengies]

Agreed, it's been a while since I've had a fun/genuine discussion/debate, whilst also getting my thoughts addressed and understood!

I mean...Miri is just wearing a regular jacket, no? If he's not then just maybe.

Wait really? Lemme check- ah. He's wearing the black jacket with a hoodie underneath it.

Granted, a piece of paper can survive being run over by a truck due to the strength of the road underneath it, so I dunno if using that scene is valid.

**** these uniforms.

Hahahahahahaha- I was joking when I said nuke-proof uniforms, but at this rate Death might actually wreck some fodder yet these anomalies will still remain intact.

Regular jacket upscales

But could it withstand a regular spear wielded by a civilian?

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

But could it withstand a regular spear wielded by a civilian?

Bad piercing protection tbh, just like Nylon!

 

[ElajRuengies]

Last post of the night. It's absolutely freezing here so thankfully classes are cancelled tomorrow. Behold my incredibly janky, suspect, sleep-deprived BS Uniform-based High/Top-Tier scaling.

Unlike with the previous Katana Man scaling, most of those who can damage PS Uniforms don't upscale to 100 tons, since Pochita's kick was blunt force while most examples of damage are via piercing damage. The only exception to this is Unmasked Violence, who shredded his uniform just by transforming.

High Mid - Hybrid Sandwich Dropkick: 81.53 tons of TNT

• Kobeni w/ Knife (Can pierce through Public Safety Uniforms)
• Kishibe w/ Knives (His knives should not be worse than Kobeni's)
• Kishibe's contracts (At least, Knife should be stronger than Kishibe's normal knife skills given how contracts work, deemed fearsome by Pingtsi)
• Akane w/ Snake Devil (Notably fearsome as it was deemed "scary" by Ghost, to the point where it initially refused to fight against it, helped beat 20% Gun)
• Whip Woman (Can destroy Public Safety Uniforms)
• Hybrid Barem (Should be stronger than Whip Woman given performance against Pochita)
• Hybrid Miri (At least, impaled Post-Fear Boost Denji)
• Post-Chainsaw Man Church Denji (At least, impaled Hybrid Miri, utterly wrecked Spear and Whip)
• Human Quanxi's Physicals (Hurt Yoru, could kill Yoshida with one direct hit, caught Kishibe's knife)
• Post-Chainsaw Man Church Yoru (Took a kick from Quanxi, hurt herself running into a wall)

High Tiers - Upscaling: 100 tons of TNT

• Human Quanxi w/ cutting damage (Wrecked Hybrid Miri w/ sword, teeth pierced Fumiko who's somehow more durable than Public Safety Uniforms(???))
• Unmasked Violence (At least, shredded his uniform just by transforming)
• Hybrid Quanxi (Stronger than Whip, Miri, or Denji)
• Hybrid Quanxi's Piercing Damage (At least, far higher than her physicals)
• Pochita Clone (Got a double KO w/ Hybrid Quanxi)
• Fiend Dolls under Post-Darkness Santa (Can stab Hybrid Quanxi)

Top Tiers - Questionable Multiplier: 200 tons of TNT

• Nighttime Santa (Easily stopped a two-armed assault of Hybrid Quanxi's arrows while Pochita Clone was pressured by one arm, given "the power to kill Makima")
• Makima (At least, punched off Chainsaw Man's limbs, breaking his saws on one occasion)
• Pochita Clone's Piercing Damage (At least, tore through Makima)
• Blood Devil Power's Blood Manipulation (At least, harmed Makima, pierced a ton of Public Safety uniforms)
• Denji w/ Power Saw (At least, continuously harmed Makima)
• Angel w/ Millenium Spear (At least, utterly wrecked Weakened Pochita)

Alternatively-
Top Tiers - Much More Questionable Multiplier: 670.71 tons of TNT

• Makima (Feared by all nations, should at least be above Snake, Knife, Needle, Claw, Whip, Sword, Flamethrower, and Bow, literally punched holes through Pochita)
• Nighttime Santa (Easily stopped a two-armed assault of Hybrid Quanxi's arrows while Pochita Clone was pressured by one arm, given "the power to kill Makima")
• Pochita Clone's Piercing Damage (At least, tore through Makima)
• Blood Devil Power's Blood Manipulation (At least, harmed Makima, pierced a ton of Public Safety uniforms)
• Denji w/ Power Saw (At least, continuously harmed Makima)
• Angel w/ Millenium Spear (At least, utterly wrecked Weakened Pochita)