Can we get rid of the notion that SBG is a thing?

[Golden_Void]

Saiyan Beyond God is not a thing that has been mentioned in the anime or the manga, probably Dokkan or Heroes but that's irrelevant.

First of all from the actual descriptio, "Saiyan Beyond God is a form taken by Goku and Vegeta after they achieve Super Saiyan God."

"Goku and Vegeta have the ability to access this form whenever they choose as a result of absorbing the energy from Super Saiyan God."

"but it is confirmed to canonically exist, as Super Saiyan Blue is achieved by taking the power of Super Saiyan God and transforming into a Super Saiyan."

Vegeta never once became Super Saiyan God. He got access to god ki via training with Whis, so Goku's whole statement of SSB being a super saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God is false. SSB has been described as having perfect ki control, which is the training Vegeta went through to achieve the form.


"When in this form, Goku and Vegeta have the power of the Super Saiyan God form, but lack God ki (As shown when other characters can still feel their ki) or any of the form's other benefits."

How could this be true, when Beerus specifically told Goku he had the power of a Super Saiyan God in his normal super saiyan form? Obviously this means that since SSJ is an amp of his base form, his base contains the power of a SSG, but is obviously weaker (something that changes with training, hence Whis wanting them to train only their base form in the RoF arc). Goku is as strong as a SSG without utilizing god ki confirmed by Beerus.


Obviously both Goku and Vegeta have god ki, as Gohan was stated to be unable to sense SSB Goku's ki. The difference between the two is Goku got his god ki from the ritual, and Vegeta got his from training (absurd as that is). This also proves that there's no god ki being used in his base as Krillin (and by extension literally everybody else worth their salt) could sense his ki until he transformed.


SSB as quoted from the DB Wiki : "This form can be accessed by absorbing the powers of god, activating them and then transforming into a Super Saiyan, or through vigorous ki control training as seen with Vegeta in the Super anime."

SSB as quoted here : "Super Saiyan Blue (ÞÂàÒéÁÒéñÒâñõ║║Òé┤ÒââÒâëÞÂàÒéÁÒéñÒâñõ║║), or simply SSJB is the result of a Saiyan gaining the power of Super Saiyan God and then transforming into a Super Saiyan."

Which only applies to Goku.

Basically SBG is actually their base form which leads to a lot of characters being scaled incorrectly. It was suggested I make this by staff, considering a good portion of them say "wait until after the tournament" yet new pages are pumped out based off of scaling that primarily comes from "SBG".

Being that Beerus said Goku's normal SSJ = SSG at the time, I realize that this also means his SS2 and SS3 form are beyond SSG, however there are statements from Akira Toriyama himself as well as in-show statements that state Goku's normal SSJ form was the form to stick with, though he casually goes SSJ2 more often.

Any issues with scaling this creates can be largely justified by holding back or PIS (18 kicking Goku's KHH with no indication of training, Krillin struggling against the very same attack, Roshi not getting his teeth kicked in immediately, Future Trunks as a character, etc.)

 

[Dark649]

I already pointed out this thing in my revision blog in which you commented, also if you look at the discussion rules you can see that this revision thread is against the rule of not posting any revisions/upgrades (This would leave to upgrades) threads until this arc is over, so i ask you to close this thread and bring it up later.

 

[Golden_Void]

I'm pretty sure DragonmasterXYZ told me to make a CRT on this two weeks ago..regardless if I'm to wait until the tournament is over then why keep creating new profiles based on a misconception? Also I didn't really ask for anything to be upgraded, just want it to be known that SBG isn't a thing.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

I agree 100% . There is also the final moments of Goku's fight, where in one punch he decimates the blast that was a combination of Beerus' and Goku's energy , which SSJ1 ( Which was said by Beerus to be as strong as SSG ) to have a lot of issues with, to the point of reverting back to normal .Which means at the absolute end of the fight, his base is stronger ( not by a lot ) than SSG . I will re-watch the scene to be sure Rice, but i definitely remember that portion.

 

[Dark649]

I'm pretty sure DragonmasterXYZ told me to make a CRT on this two weeks ago..regardless if I'm to wait until the tournament is over then why keep creating new profiles based on a misconception?

Because the other users were not fully informed about this rule, which i hope they follow. I also agree with this, but it is better to wait after the tournament to revise most of the DBS profiles.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

I agree with Dark, this should wait for a while. But i also agree with RIce, Vegeta is the true contradiction to acheive SSG , and by default SBG & SSB

 

[Golden_Void]

I appreciate it.


@Dark

And while it may be better to wait until after the tournament, I think this is information that should be readily available for when these changes occur.

 

[Dark649]

I agree. After the tournament i will bring up this thread along with my blog.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Your welcome. I will be on the side that supports what i believe . It's not a problem . Agreed Dark .That is the best course of action . The true war will start ironically after the Universal Survival arc ends. I am ready and more than willing to help you guys in any way i can. I will either mention this thread when the time comes to the debate, or will mention a summary of what you said.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

Yeah Seed and rice are right. But I think it's best to hold this discussion after the tournament as this revision is going to be HUGE.


Additionally the staff are ocuppied with another revision for the moment so we should not take up their time for now.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

• Wasn't it the Sailor Moon revision ?

 

[Golden_Void]

I agree 100% . There is also the final moments of Goku's fight, where in one punch he decimates the blast that was a combination of Beerus' and Goku's energy , which SSJ1 ( Which was said by Beerus to be as strong as SSG ) to have a lot of issues with, to the point of reverting back to normal .Which means at the absolute end of the fight, his base is stronger ( not by a lot ) than SSG . I will re-watch the scene to be sure Rice, but i definitely remember that portion.

Also I just watched it, Goku using his full power for a last KHH collided with an attack of Beerus's, creating a sphere of destruction, that base Goku punched through after being weakened out of SSJ, causing it to explode.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

So he gained a power boost that made him stronger than SSJ . Wouldn't it make the last minute power-up base, and ROF saga & onwards Base 3-A ?

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

@Seed yeah pretty much so. It would actually be nice if after the tournament that could be added to Goku's profile as further proof of 3-A Base Goku.

 

[Golden_Void]

Yup, which is why Cabba is such a big deal too because Vegeta directly stated Cabba = his base, and why base Copy Vegeta completely stomped SS3 Gotenks without trying.

 

[Debunking101]

Guess we need a 3a krillin 3a piccolo 3a roshi 3a tien and 3a Yamaha. Can't wait

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

^ Do you understand how many times this has been... "Debunked" ?

 

[Debunking101]

Debunked is a harsh word. More like over looked

 

[Joseph619]

Everybody knows saiyan beyond god doesn't exist in canon, it's a random video game term

 

[Huesito88]

Yeah ^

 

[Golden_Void]

Apparently not

┬»\_(Òâä)_/┬»

 

[Antvasima]

I will inform The Everlasting about this thread. I think that he wrote the page for the sake of convenience.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

@Antvasima I see. Well, it did help with scaling for a while. But some people realized it's flaws. And yes, Huesito , Joseph, Rice , & Dark. We all share the same opinion about SBG not existing within the canon stories . SSB is unlocked with perfect ki control, not with SSG . If it was , Vegeta wouldn't have unlocked the form, regardless of whether or not he obtained God Ki through " training " . vGoku even mentions in the arc thatt Vegeta obtained that power on his own, debunking SBG and what people originally thought SSB needed to acheive it.

 

[The_Everlasting]

I'm just going to repeat what Azzy said on this matter:

"I don't really have an opinion on the powerscaling, as I'm a bit behind on Super, but I will point out that "Saiyan Beyond God" not being referred to as such in canon does not mean such a thing doesn't exist. Especially when we are told of things such as Saiyans being able to channel their God Ki without directly changing their form, and how adding Super Saiyan to this results in SSB. If this special ki was always in effect, all non-god forms of Super Saiyan would not exist, yet they clearly do.

The only arguments I have seen "debunking" SBG is the fact that the anime never mentions it by name. With all the statements from other material, that is not good enough. I want things from the anime that contradict SBG or a similar power up by any other name existing before we upgrade everyone to 3-A. That's what a debunk is."

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. We might perform some upgradesafter the current storyarc is over though.

Should we close this thread?

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Heres the problem Everlasting . We literally gave you a contradiction concerning teh SSB and what it originally mentioned the requirements were to unlock it . The requirements for SSB in that scan are different than what was shown in several other sources . That is all.

 

[The_Everlasting]

What is the contradiction, exactly?

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

The contradiction is Vegeta's ways of unlocking SSB are directly different from Goku's . Goku had to have had the ritual , and then concentrate his ki to one point to unlock SSB . This is implied to be the true requirement for SSB . Vegeta on the other hand, is the walking contradiction , having unlocked the transformation before ever doing the ritual , and Goku even said he unlocked SSB on his own , without the need of the ritual .

 

[The_Everlasting]

Saiyan Beyond God = Base form + God ki.

Super Saiyan Blue = God ki + Super Saiyan.

Vegeta never truly obtained Super Saiyan God (At least not in the anime), he just trained his way to God ki.

 

[Golden_Void]

But

1. SBG as described is based on the belief that it derives from the SSG transformation, which applies to 1 person, so it's deeper than that.

2. If they were able to channel their god ki without changing form (implying SBG is a thing), how does that account for every time they could be sensed in this "base" form, when it's also described on the SBG page that the form retains the power of SSG but without the god ki?

3. God-like power without changing form could mean many things. What it doesn't mean is a transformation, which SBG is implied to be. I think we can agree without changing form can be read as without transforming.

As taken from our description of it : "While a Transformation, Saiyan Beyond God also works as a mere passive addition"

This also automatically rules out SSG, SSB, and SSJ1-3.

Now, Goku and Vegeta did attain god-like power without changing form. Beerus said he gained the power of SSG for himself, and Goku in base form was able to punch out a combination of his and Beerus's attacks, which I would say is not a change of form, as its his base.

Vegeta while training with Whis also surpassed SSG, attaining this god-like power without changing form (if you remember, Whis specifically wanted them to train their base forms).

"But if those god-like saiyans transform into super saiyans" implies the usage of god ki, because that's how SSB is born. With this, I can understand how it can be thought their base form uses god ki, but again, their base forms are always detected, and the disappearance of their normal ki occurs when Goku and Vegeta become SSB.

" Saiyans being able to channel their God Ki without directly changing their form, and how adding Super Saiyan to this results in SSB."

On this note, I also believe that god ki works in an odd way. Goku lost his god ki from his SSG form yet retained the power. Vegeta obtained god ki by perfecting his ki control, to the point where he was able to move in a space of godly ki . SSB is also further defined by Goku as proper ki control (implying that's all there is to godly ki, no evidence suggests otherwise.) So I don't believe god ki is some force they just activate. Even Goku going SSB for the first time against Frieza briefly had a normal Super Saiyan aura before actually going Blue, which further alludes to it simply being ki control.


Sorry if my post is organized oddly, I feel that it is.

 

[The_Everlasting]

"SBG as described is based on the belief that it derives from the SSG Transformation"

False and rather irrelevant.

"If they were able to channel their god ki without changing form (implying SBG is a thing), how does that account for every time they could be sensed in this "base" form, when it's also described on the SBG page that the form retains the power of SSG but without the god ki?"

Characters sensing Goku and Vegeta seems to just be plot convenience/author ignorance. Even if we assume Saiyan Beyond God isn't a thing, how can we explain that?

"God-like power without changing form could mean many things. What it doesn't mean is a transformation, which SBG is implied to be. I think we can agree without changing form can be read as without transforming."

Or it can mean exactly what it sounds like: Accessing God ki without technically transforming.

"This also automatically rules out SSG, SSB, and SSJ1-3."

If Saiyan Beyond God weren't a form, Goku and Vegeta would not be able to use Super Saiyans 1-3 at all, since SSJB is just going Super Saiyan with God ki.

 

[Huesito88]

I always believed they can tap into a portion of their god ki and not its full power. That is why they can still sense him.

 

[Sera_EX]

Why is this still open?

 

[Golden_Void]

"SBG as described is based on the belief that it derives from the SSG Transformation"
False and rather irrelevant.

"Goku and Vegeta have the ability to access this form whenever they choose as a result of absorbing the energy from Super Saiyan God. " I'm pretty sure you're the one who typed this up, and yes it is relevant to this entire topic.

Characters sensing Goku and Vegeta seems to just be plot convenience/author ignorance. Even if we assume Saiyan Beyond God isn't a thing, how can we explain that?

Plot convenience/author ignorance, even though Goku's ki was felt immediately after he lost the SSG form while Beerus said he already had the power of SSG?

Or it can mean exactly what it sounds like: Accessing God ki without technically transforming.

If Saiyan Beyond God weren't a form, Goku and Vegeta would not be able to use Super Saiyans 1-3 at all, since SSJB is just going Super Saiyan with God ki.
Except I've already provided evidence that god ki is simply perfect ki control (as stated by Goku and alluded to by Vegeta). IIRC leaking their ki is what allows their normal super saiyan modes, perfect ki control = SSB.

 

[The_Everlasting]

That's just flavor text I decided to put. It doesn't invalidate the transformation.

Even if we assume that Saiyan Beyond God doesn't exist and Goku and Vegeta always have God ki, characters still wouldn't be able to sense them.

I don't see how ki control is particularly relevant. By its very nature SSJB is God ki + Super Saiyan.

 

[Golden_Void]

Ok, then prove to me beyond a doubt how Vegeta got god ki. Because the only thing we're shown of him from BoG to RoF is him trying to learn perfect ki control.

I'm not assuming they always have god ki. I'm saying god ki = perfect ki control, unless you actually assume an official godhood role or perform a god ritual.

And even if that's flavorful text that's still not enitrely true.

 

[The_Everlasting]

He trained his way to it... somehow.

Again, how is ki control relevant?

"It is said that Saiyans can gain control of god-like power without changing form."

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

In what world does god-like power automatically equals SBG ? It could literally be just about anything .

 

[Golden_Void]

I just explained how ki control is relevant so many times...


And Goku gained god-like power without changing form while he fought Beerus. Then punched out a combination of both their attacks in his weakened base form. It fits the bill.

 

[Sera_EX]

Ki control is the very basis of Super Saiyan Blue. There's anime and manga evidence to support this. Simply put, all of Whis' training sessions were about ki control.