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Broly Spoilers for Dragon Ball Movie.
- Thread starter Mr._Common_Sense
- Start date
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False, Elder Kaioshin makes a clear distinction. The "time limit" counterargument always ignored the context.AKM sama said:
The context behind the statement:
- Chapter: 501 (DBZ 307), P5.5
- Context: Elder Kaioshin warning Goku about recklessly going to rescue Gohan from Gotenks-absorbed Boo
- Elder Kaioshin: "I hate to say it, but I don't think you could win against this current Majin Boo even if the two of you went at him together…"
Elder Kaioshin tells him in return that Boo would not wait for him to teach Gohan the dance, so he gives him the Potara. That's when he states the effect is even greater than with Fusion.
The context is about power. In fact:
- Chapter: 501 (DBZ 307), P11.6
- Context: Goku asks how long Potara-based fusion lasts
- Elder Kaioshin: "The Potara don't have such a weakness. It's eternal! You'll never return to normal again!"
- Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P1.3
- Context: Goku asks if he should become a Super Saiyan before merging with the Potara, and Elder Kaioshin advices against it
- Elder Kaioshin: "If you're going to become a Super Saiyan, it's better to do it after merging. But anyway, even without doing that, you'll probably be plee~~eenty. The Potara's power is just that amazing!"
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They retconned the timelimit, who's to say they kept the "Potara>Metamoran fusion power" thing nowadays?
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"The Potara's power is just that amazing" =/= "The Potara's power is stronger than Dance". Two different things.
Goku asking him "how long it lasts" after Elder Kai's statement of "effect is greater" again doesn't prove that his statement was about power and not time limit. He knew Potata's time limit so he said it's effect is greater and later when Goku asked for the exact time limit, he gave the answer that it doesn't have one. There's no deep context involved here.
Goku asking him "how long it lasts" after Elder Kai's statement of "effect is greater" again doesn't prove that his statement was about power and not time limit. He knew Potata's time limit so he said it's effect is greater and later when Goku asked for the exact time limit, he gave the answer that it doesn't have one. There's no deep context involved here.
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> "The Potara's power is just that amazing" =/= "The Potara's power is stronger than Dance". Two different things.
It establishes the context is about power, actually.
> Goku asking him "how long it lasts" after Elder Kai's statement of "effect is greater" again doesn't prove that his statement was about power and not time limit. He knew Potata's time limit so he said it's effect is greater and later when Goku asked for the exact time limit, he gave the answer. There's nothing deeper to look into here.
Except that this makes no sense at all in context. Nothing about a time limit is mentioned in the statement itself. He states that the effect of fusing with the Potara is greater than fusing with the Dance, that wwould be a clear statement on their power comparison.
This viewpoint relies on twisting a statement.
It establishes the context is about power, actually.
> Goku asking him "how long it lasts" after Elder Kai's statement of "effect is greater" again doesn't prove that his statement was about power and not time limit. He knew Potata's time limit so he said it's effect is greater and later when Goku asked for the exact time limit, he gave the answer. There's nothing deeper to look into here.
Except that this makes no sense at all in context. Nothing about a time limit is mentioned in the statement itself. He states that the effect of fusing with the Potara is greater than fusing with the Dance, that wwould be a clear statement on their power comparison.
This viewpoint relies on twisting a statement.
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Great work done here, though i know its not the communities most preferable choice we should go for the official names for Broly's transformations that being "Wrathful" for the yellow eyed form and "Super Saiyan Full Power Broly" for the LSS formAKM sama said:
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Also Gogeta should also have Danmaku seeing as what he did in the trailers
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Yeah I don't see how those quotes prove Potara Fusion is stronger than the Fusion Dance. If anything it just confirms that the Potara has a better time limit. Also the new article already said Potara Fusion is equal to Fusion Dance and nothing really contradicts this other than some incorrect info that lasted for a long time.
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Furthermore:
If the Potara is the only way to beat Boo, that automatically includes a potential Gogeta, as well.
Vegetto >> Gohan Boo >> Gogeta >> Super Boo (without absorptions)
- Chapter: 503 (DBZ 309), P9.2
- Context: as Goku heads to Vegeta with the Potara
- Boo: "Now there's another human with great power! But naturally he's no match for me, even if they merged!"
- Chapter: 503 (DBZ 309), P8.8
- Context: Goku tries to get Vegeta to use the Potara with him, but Vegeta refuses
- Goku: "Knowing you, I thought you might say that…! There ain't any other way to beat Majin Boo!"
If the Potara is the only way to beat Boo, that automatically includes a potential Gogeta, as well.
- Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P13.1
- Context: still talking about how they're no match for Boo
- Goku: "…But there is one way we can win!"
- Vegeta: "You want to say Fusion, right? Well who cares about that?!"
- Goku: "Huh? You know about it?"
- Vegeta: "I saw it from the afterlife…You've got to be joking! You think I'd perform those ugly poses…?! Anyway, I thought I told you that I'm not going to merge with you a second time."
Vegetto >> Gohan Boo >> Gogeta >> Super Boo (without absorptions)
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That makes no sense, even if you want to downplay Gogeta he should still be somewhat relative to Vegetto seeing as Goten and Trunks were fodder against Super Boo and managed to overpower him later on in fusionKepekley23 said:
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The only headcanon here is adhering to some random promotional statement instead of the indisputable facts in the original manga.ZERO7772 said:
Goku, Vegeta, and Boo all disagree with your point of view. That's more than enough for me.
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If you stick by promotional material then even that disagrees with your assesment Kanzenshuu articleKepekley23 said:
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> If you stick by promotional material then even that disagrees with your assesment Kanzenshuu article
I don't stick by promotional material, that's you.
I don't stick by promotional material, that's you.
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- Thread starter
- #139
Or if we go by canon chronologic villain order where the next villain is always stronger than the previous this means Broly is stronger than Jiren who is stronger than Zamasua.
It took Gogeta to defeat Broly, who is currently the strongest known threat in the series making as of his moment Gogeta stronger than Vegito.
It took Gogeta to defeat Broly, who is currently the strongest known threat in the series making as of his moment Gogeta stronger than Vegito.
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Point is that "Gogeta=Vegetto" isn't new, that was from 23 years ago. The new movie promotional statement just proves that point
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"Goku stated that merging with the Potara is the ONLY way to beat Boo"
Weak argument. It was the only way because Vegeta doesn't know dance and there was no time.
"Boo states that a potential Gogeta would be unable to match him, despite the fact he himself conceded that a potential fusion between Goku and Gohan would be able to threaten him"
Buuccolo being afraid of a potential Gokhan and Buuhan not being afraid of a potential Vegito are two completely different things. It's Buuhan overestimating himself like usual. That's not even an argument.
Weak argument. It was the only way because Vegeta doesn't know dance and there was no time.
"Boo states that a potential Gogeta would be unable to match him, despite the fact he himself conceded that a potential fusion between Goku and Gohan would be able to threaten him"
Buuccolo being afraid of a potential Gokhan and Buuhan not being afraid of a potential Vegito are two completely different things. It's Buuhan overestimating himself like usual. That's not even an argument.
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The only headcanon here is adhering to some random promotional statement instead of the indisputable facts in the original manga.
Goku, Vegeta, and Boo all disagree with your point of view. That's more than enough for me.
Really? You bring buu into this? The guy who was confident in taking vegito on?
Ya, buu is so reliable.
Anyway, retcons like this are common in dbs now. And if gogeta right now is anything to go by, you either accept that his base was hundreds of times beyond a ssj3. Or that his multiplier has been retcon. Which one is easier to believe.
Goku, Vegeta, and Boo all disagree with your point of view. That's more than enough for me.
Really? You bring buu into this? The guy who was confident in taking vegito on?
Ya, buu is so reliable.
Anyway, retcons like this are common in dbs now. And if gogeta right now is anything to go by, you either accept that his base was hundreds of times beyond a ssj3. Or that his multiplier has been retcon. Which one is easier to believe.
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> Weak argument. It was the only way because Vegeta doesn't know dance and there was no time.
...Is that why Goku told Elder Kaioshin he was going to try to merge with Gohan using the Metamoran Dance instead of stalling Boo until Gotenks ran out inside him? Gohan didn't know the Dance, nor did they have time either, yet Goku was still going to do it. Elder Kaioshin even points out how stupid that is.
> Buuccolo being afraid of a potential Gokhan and Buuhan not being afraid of a potential Vegito are two completely different things. It's Buuhan overestimating himself like usual. That's not even an argument.
1. You can't just make up a reason for why an uncontradicted statement isn't true and act like it's legitimate.
2. Gohan-Boo shut up as soon as the fight with Vegetto began, and started using tricks. He never told Vegetto he was unable to defeat him.
3. A character lying once doesn't mean everything they say is untrue, unless you want to go around discarding everything anyone says in the entire manga.
...Is that why Goku told Elder Kaioshin he was going to try to merge with Gohan using the Metamoran Dance instead of stalling Boo until Gotenks ran out inside him? Gohan didn't know the Dance, nor did they have time either, yet Goku was still going to do it. Elder Kaioshin even points out how stupid that is.
> Buuccolo being afraid of a potential Gokhan and Buuhan not being afraid of a potential Vegito are two completely different things. It's Buuhan overestimating himself like usual. That's not even an argument.
1. You can't just make up a reason for why an uncontradicted statement isn't true and act like it's legitimate.
2. Gohan-Boo shut up as soon as the fight with Vegetto began, and started using tricks. He never told Vegetto he was unable to defeat him.
3. A character lying once doesn't mean everything they say is untrue, unless you want to go around discarding everything anyone says in the entire manga.
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".Is that why Goku told Elder Kaioshin he was going to try to merge with Gohan using the Metamoran Dance"
Because that was the only way known to Goku before he learned about Potara.
"You can't just make up a reason for why an uncontradicted statement isn't true and act like it's legitimate."
Again, Buuccolo was weak, him being afraid of a fusion makes perfect sense. Buuhan was all powerful, him not being afraid of a fusion also makes sense with his attitude of overestimating himself. I don't see your point.
Because that was the only way known to Goku before he learned about Potara.
"You can't just make up a reason for why an uncontradicted statement isn't true and act like it's legitimate."
Again, Buuccolo was weak, him being afraid of a fusion makes perfect sense. Buuhan was all powerful, him not being afraid of a fusion also makes sense with his attitude of overestimating himself. I don't see your point.
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> Because that was the only way known to Goku before he learned about Potara.
You missed the point. Goku told Elder Kaioshin he'd IT to Earth and try to merge with Gohan despite the fact Gohan had no idea how to do the dance, nor did they have any time, instead of just stalling for a few minutes until Gotenks's SSj3 ended. Why would Metamoran not be an option included in the "any other way"?
Not only that, Goku has an entire conversation with Vegeta while inside Super Boo where he tells Vegeta that breaking the Potara is stupid because there's no guarantee they will be able to revert Gohan Boo back to normal. Why would he say that if a Fusion Dance Gogeta was an option? Are you saying Goku'd rather be merged with Vegeta forever than beat Boo and safely revert back to their normal self?
After they rip Gohan off Super Boo, Goku does bring up the Fusion Dance, but not before. Coincidentally.
> Again, Buuccolo was weak, him being afraid of a fusion makes perfect sense. Buuhan was all powerful, him not being afraid of a fusion also makes sense with his attitude of overestimating himself. I don't see your point.
Gohan Boo doesn't have that personality, so no.
You missed the point. Goku told Elder Kaioshin he'd IT to Earth and try to merge with Gohan despite the fact Gohan had no idea how to do the dance, nor did they have any time, instead of just stalling for a few minutes until Gotenks's SSj3 ended. Why would Metamoran not be an option included in the "any other way"?
Not only that, Goku has an entire conversation with Vegeta while inside Super Boo where he tells Vegeta that breaking the Potara is stupid because there's no guarantee they will be able to revert Gohan Boo back to normal. Why would he say that if a Fusion Dance Gogeta was an option? Are you saying Goku'd rather be merged with Vegeta forever than beat Boo and safely revert back to their normal self?
After they rip Gohan off Super Boo, Goku does bring up the Fusion Dance, but not before. Coincidentally.
> Again, Buuccolo was weak, him being afraid of a fusion makes perfect sense. Buuhan was all powerful, him not being afraid of a fusion also makes sense with his attitude of overestimating himself. I don't see your point.
Gohan Boo doesn't have that personality, so no.
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I am willing to concede to a Gogeta = Vegetto retcon if it's actually stated in the new movie as opposed to a random Jump issue. Otherwise, the original work and its guides pretty solidly lean on Gogeta being weaker.
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"Why would he say that if a Fusion Dance Gogeta was an option?"
Because Fusion Dance wasn't a practical option. Teaching and practicing it takes a lot of time and they were in a hurry so that Buu doesn't destroy the Earth. The chances of them fusing successfully through dance was almost nonexistent. Which makes Potara the only way, practically.
"After they rip Gohan off Super Boo, Goku does bring up the Fusion Dance, but not before. "
Because again, however impractical and no matter the odds of them pulling it off successfully, that was the only option left because Goku thought they were still no match. It's just like with Gohan.
Because Fusion Dance wasn't a practical option. Teaching and practicing it takes a lot of time and they were in a hurry so that Buu doesn't destroy the Earth. The chances of them fusing successfully through dance was almost nonexistent. Which makes Potara the only way, practically.
"After they rip Gohan off Super Boo, Goku does bring up the Fusion Dance, but not before. "
Because again, however impractical and no matter the odds of them pulling it off successfully, that was the only option left because Goku thought they were still no match. It's just like with Gohan.
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> Because Fusion Dance wasn't a practical option. Teaching and practicing it takes a lot of time and they were in a hurry so that Buu doesn't destroy the Earth. The chances of them fusing successfully through dance was almost nonexistent. Which makes Potara the only way, practically
Except this doesn't make sense because Goku brings up the Fusion Dance immediately after they revert Gohan Boo back to normal Super Boo. This is still while they are inside Boo.
> Because again, however impractical and no matter the odds of them pulling it off successfully, that was the only option left because Goku thought they were still no match. It's just like with Gohan.
Goku sees Vegeta is about to shatter the Potara and panics because, and I quote, "there is no guarantee [we] will be able to return Boo to the very first one of all!"
Yet when they manage to revert Boo to Base Super Boo, Goku coincidentally decides to bring up the Fusion Dance. They are still inside Boo.
Neither the time it'd take to teach it nor the amount of times they had to try was a factor on Goku's mind.
Except this doesn't make sense because Goku brings up the Fusion Dance immediately after they revert Gohan Boo back to normal Super Boo. This is still while they are inside Boo.
> Because again, however impractical and no matter the odds of them pulling it off successfully, that was the only option left because Goku thought they were still no match. It's just like with Gohan.
Goku sees Vegeta is about to shatter the Potara and panics because, and I quote, "there is no guarantee [we] will be able to return Boo to the very first one of all!"
Yet when they manage to revert Boo to Base Super Boo, Goku coincidentally decides to bring up the Fusion Dance. They are still inside Boo.
Neither the time it'd take to teach it nor the amount of times they had to try was a factor on Goku's mind.
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Goku panics when Vegeta broke the Potara because that was the only practical way to win. Later, Goku brings up the fact that it's Vegeta's fault for breaking the Potara, then he brings up the fusion dance as the very last resort because they have no other practical option left.
Nothing here suggests Dance < Potara. The context only points to how potara is preferable over dance due to the process of fusion. Time was obviously a factor because they thought Buu will destroy Earth.
Nothing here suggests Dance < Potara. The context only points to how potara is preferable over dance due to the process of fusion. Time was obviously a factor because they thought Buu will destroy Earth.
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That isn't stated. Goku sees Vegeta has broke the Potara and immediately yells he shouldn't have done that because, again, I literally quote the exact statement: "There is no guarantee we will be able to revert Boo back to the very first one of all!"
Which immediately means Goku has zero confidence on winning a fight with Gohan Boo without the Potara. He doesn't mention the Fusion Dance as the last resort at all in this statement, despite the fact he could have easily had, because, as he said himself, there is no way to beat Boo without the Potara.
Then, after Vegeta rips Gohan off of Super Boo, leading to him reverting to base Super Boo, Vegeta hastily tries to leave before Goku tells him they are still no match to Boo, but then he proceeds by saying there is one way they can win now...the Fusion Dance.
Goku's whole pla was rescuing Gohan and the others. Gohan is able to beat Super Boo in a heartbeat if he so wishes, and Goku is aware of that. Going by that logic, waiting for Gohan to wake up would be far less risky than using the Fusion Dance. Guess what Goku decided to choose (only after Super Boo is back to normal, not when he had Gohan absorbed).
Just goes on to show this practicity argument isn't what Goku was thinking at all. That logic doesn't work out when everything is taken into account.
Which immediately means Goku has zero confidence on winning a fight with Gohan Boo without the Potara. He doesn't mention the Fusion Dance as the last resort at all in this statement, despite the fact he could have easily had, because, as he said himself, there is no way to beat Boo without the Potara.
Then, after Vegeta rips Gohan off of Super Boo, leading to him reverting to base Super Boo, Vegeta hastily tries to leave before Goku tells him they are still no match to Boo, but then he proceeds by saying there is one way they can win now...the Fusion Dance.
Goku's whole pla was rescuing Gohan and the others. Gohan is able to beat Super Boo in a heartbeat if he so wishes, and Goku is aware of that. Going by that logic, waiting for Gohan to wake up would be far less risky than using the Fusion Dance. Guess what Goku decided to choose (only after Super Boo is back to normal, not when he had Gohan absorbed).
Just goes on to show this practicity argument isn't what Goku was thinking at all. That logic doesn't work out when everything is taken into account.
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"There is no guarantee we will be able to revert Boo back to the very first one of all!" =/= "There is no way to beat Buuhan without the Potara." Again two different things. Goku is obviously upset because Vegeta broke a tool which could grant them an easy win. Doesn't mean a potential Gogeta would have failed. Goku not mentioning the dance doesn't mean it's weaker. Since the context is about Goku being upset at Vegeta sabotaging such an easy way. The dance is just impractical and the chances of them pulling it off were very very bleak.
Waiting for Gohan was not an option since they didn't know how much longer it would take. They were in a hurry because they were afraid Buu might destroy the Earth. Their only option was to go out and fight and only option to win was fusion. But since potara was not available, it all came down to dance.
The entire context is about the inefficiency of dance as compared to potara. Not that dance is weaker than potara.
Waiting for Gohan was not an option since they didn't know how much longer it would take. They were in a hurry because they were afraid Buu might destroy the Earth. Their only option was to go out and fight and only option to win was fusion. But since potara was not available, it all came down to dance.
The entire context is about the inefficiency of dance as compared to potara. Not that dance is weaker than potara.
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> "There is no guarantee we will be able to revert Boo back to the very first one of all!" =/= "There is no way to beat Buuhan without the Potara." Again two different things. Goku is obviously upset because Vegeta broke a tool which could grant them an easy win. Doesn't mean a potential Gogeta would have failed. Goku not mentioning the dance doesn't mean it's weaker. Since the context is about Goku being upset at Vegeta sabotaging such an easy way.
The context has literally nothing to do with that. The actual statement completely goes against that:
> Waiting for Gohan was not an option since they didn't know how much longer it would take.They were in a hurry because they were afraid Buu might destroy the Earth. Their only option was to go out and fight and only option to win was fusio
That's right, the Dance was the best option. Only after Super Boo was reverted to his normal form. Before that, the only way to win was the Potara, as stated.
Also, no, Goku was not planning on going out anytime soon.
The context has literally nothing to do with that. The actual statement completely goes against that:
- Context: Goku points out that if he and Vegeta aren't merged, Vegeta will have to return to the afterlife
- Vegeta: "Hmph…That's better than being merged with you…Anyway, there shouldn't be any need for us to merge anymore, right?"
- Goku: "We can't know that! There's [no] guarantee that we'll be able to successfully rescue everyone who got absorbed from here and return Boo to the very first one of all…!"
> Waiting for Gohan was not an option since they didn't know how much longer it would take.They were in a hurry because they were afraid Buu might destroy the Earth. Their only option was to go out and fight and only option to win was fusio
That's right, the Dance was the best option. Only after Super Boo was reverted to his normal form. Before that, the only way to win was the Potara, as stated.
Also, no, Goku was not planning on going out anytime soon.
- Vegeta: "Alright! Let's blast out of here and escape!"
- Goku: "Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we're still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we'll definitely be done in…!"
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That whole discussion is based around a WSJ article statement that contradict their previous statetement from 23 years ago where they said that Gogeta would win in a 30 minute fight.
AKA it's pointless since WSJ article without input from either Toei or Toriyama aren't worth much.
AKA it's pointless since WSJ article without input from either Toei or Toriyama aren't worth much.
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- Thread starter
- #155
I always found it funny that even with Gogeta 30min time limit before the fusion ends. There is nothing stoping Goku and Vegeta from fusing again and again and again after every 30min fight is over.
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There is. That's why Goten and Trunks got desperate when they thought Gohan was about to be killed by Super Boo; there was a time limit before they could do the Fusion Dance again.
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Even if there wasn't, if you were fighting an enemy that you couldn't beat while fused fighting for 30 minutes then they would kill you easily after the time runs out before you can dance again.
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"The statement is clear. They need the Potara to win. "
No. Misinterpretation. They need to merge to win because they can't beat him alone. Goku's statement is the answer to Vegeta's statement that "they don't need to merge". Goku was just upset because Vegeta broke the sure shot way to victory. In no way does it establish Potara > Dance.
"That's right, the Dance was the best option. Only after Super Boo was reverted to his normal form."
No, it was the last option only because the potara was broken. Again, in no way does this statement suggest any power comparison between potara and dance.
Again, there is no direct power comparison between the potara and fusion dance in DB canon. Just one statement from Elder Kai which is misinterpreted by fans to fit their purpose.
No. Misinterpretation. They need to merge to win because they can't beat him alone. Goku's statement is the answer to Vegeta's statement that "they don't need to merge". Goku was just upset because Vegeta broke the sure shot way to victory. In no way does it establish Potara > Dance.
"That's right, the Dance was the best option. Only after Super Boo was reverted to his normal form."
No, it was the last option only because the potara was broken. Again, in no way does this statement suggest any power comparison between potara and dance.
Again, there is no direct power comparison between the potara and fusion dance in DB canon. Just one statement from Elder Kai which is misinterpreted by fans to fit their purpose.
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