• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Broly Spoilers for Dragon Ball Movie.

Both translations imply the same thing. The "effect is greater" is obviously referring to the time limit. When it comes to translations, both Viz and Herms can be trusted.
 
The old Kaio only suggested the potara "because" Boo won't allow them to do the dance, not "because" it's too weak to beat Buu.


Daizenshuu doesn't matter and it was wrong many times in the past. They get Toriyama approval but it's not written by Toriyama himself.
 
AKM sama said:
Both translations imply the same thing. The "effect is greater" is obviously referring to the time limit. When it comes to translations, both Viz and Herms can be trusted.
False, Elder Kaioshin makes a clear distinction. The "time limit" counterargument always ignored the context.

The context behind the statement:

  • Chapter: 501 (DBZ 307), P5.5
  • Context: Elder Kaioshin warning Goku about recklessly going to rescue Gohan from Gotenks-absorbed Boo
  • Elder Kaioshin: "I hate to say it, but I don't think you could win against this current Majin Boo even if the two of you went at him together…"
Goku saw Gohan getting stomped by Gotenks Boo, so he got angry and tried to IT to Earth, to which Elder Kaioshin stated he had no chance of beating Boo, so Goku got caught off guard and tried to quickly come up with a way they could beat Boo - so he thought about fusing with Gohan, so they will "win for sure".

Elder Kaioshin tells him in return that Boo would not wait for him to teach Gohan the dance, so he gives him the Potara. That's when he states the effect is even greater than with Fusion.

The context is about power. In fact:

  • Chapter: 501 (DBZ 307), P11.6
  • Context: Goku asks how long Potara-based fusion lasts
  • Elder Kaioshin: "The Potara don't have such a weakness. It's eternal! You'll never return to normal again!"
Goku asks him about the time limit AFTER he states the effect is greater than with the Fusion Dance.

  • Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P1.3
  • Context: Goku asks if he should become a Super Saiyan before merging with the Potara, and Elder Kaioshin advices against it
  • Elder Kaioshin: "If you're going to become a Super Saiyan, it's better to do it after merging. But anyway, even without doing that, you'll probably be plee~~eenty. The Potara's power is just that amazing!"
The context was about power. The time limit counter doesn't hold up at all.
 
"The Potara's power is just that amazing" =/= "The Potara's power is stronger than Dance". Two different things.

Goku asking him "how long it lasts" after Elder Kai's statement of "effect is greater" again doesn't prove that his statement was about power and not time limit. He knew Potata's time limit so he said it's effect is greater and later when Goku asked for the exact time limit, he gave the answer that it doesn't have one. There's no deep context involved here.
 
> "The Potara's power is just that amazing" =/= "The Potara's power is stronger than Dance". Two different things.

It establishes the context is about power, actually.

> Goku asking him "how long it lasts" after Elder Kai's statement of "effect is greater" again doesn't prove that his statement was about power and not time limit. He knew Potata's time limit so he said it's effect is greater and later when Goku asked for the exact time limit, he gave the answer. There's nothing deeper to look into here.

Except that this makes no sense at all in context. Nothing about a time limit is mentioned in the statement itself. He states that the effect of fusing with the Potara is greater than fusing with the Dance, that wwould be a clear statement on their power comparison.

This viewpoint relies on twisting a statement.
 
AKM sama said:
Well, here is the draft for Broly and Gogeta based on the spoilers. I'll be creating the profiles on 14th, but we still need renders for SSJ Broly, Base and SSJ Gogeta.
Great work done here, though i know its not the communities most preferable choice we should go for the official names for Broly's transformations that being "Wrathful" for the yellow eyed form and "Super Saiyan Full Power Broly" for the LSS form
 
Meh, if you want to interpret it that way. I don't have time rn so I digress. It doesn't matter now since the new info says they are "equally matched ultimate trump cards".
 
Yeah I don't see how those quotes prove Potara Fusion is stronger than the Fusion Dance. If anything it just confirms that the Potara has a better time limit. Also the new article already said Potara Fusion is equal to Fusion Dance and nothing really contradicts this other than some incorrect info that lasted for a long time.
 
Furthermore:

  • Chapter: 503 (DBZ 309), P9.2
  • Context: as Goku heads to Vegeta with the Potara
  • Boo: "Now there's another human with great power! But naturally he's no match for me, even if they merged!"
Boo states that a potential Gogeta would be unable to match him, despite the fact he himself conceded that a potential fusion between Goku and Gohan would be able to threaten him and risk his throne as the strongest earlier-on.

  • Chapter: 503 (DBZ 309), P8.8
  • Context: Goku tries to get Vegeta to use the Potara with him, but Vegeta refuses
  • Goku: "Knowing you, I thought you might say that…! There ain't any other way to beat Majin Boo!"
Goku stated that merging with the Potara is the ONLY way to beat Boo; this statement is made at the exact same time and inbetween the same pages as Boo stating that a potential Metamoran version of them would not be able to beat him, so they go hand in hand.

If the Potara is the only way to beat Boo, that automatically includes a potential Gogeta, as well.

  • Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P13.1
  • Context: still talking about how they're no match for Boo
  • Goku: "…But there is one way we can win!"
  • Vegeta: "You want to say Fusion, right? Well who cares about that?!"
  • Goku: "Huh? You know about it?"
  • Vegeta: "I saw it from the afterlife…You've got to be joking! You think I'd perform those ugly poses…?! Anyway, I thought I told you that I'm not going to merge with you a second time."
Goku only asks Vegeta to merge with him using the Fusion Dance after' they rip out Gohan's pod and return Gohan Boo back to normal Super Boo, once again painting the picture that Gogeta wouldn't be able to beat Boo with Gohan absorbed.

Vegetto >> Gohan Boo >> Gogeta >> Super Boo (without absorptions)
 
Kepekley23 said:
Vegetto >> Gohan Boo >> Gogeta >> Super Boo (without absorptions)
That makes no sense, even if you want to downplay Gogeta he should still be somewhat relative to Vegetto seeing as Goten and Trunks were fodder against Super Boo and managed to overpower him later on in fusion
 
New jump scan says Gogeta = Vegito

I guess you can stick to your 23 years old headcanon then? Toei and Toriyama has been rectoning stuff left and right.
 
ZERO7772 said:
New jump scan says Gogeta = Vegito

I guess you can stick to your 23 years old headcanon then?
The only headcanon here is adhering to some random promotional statement instead of the indisputable facts in the original manga.

Goku, Vegeta, and Boo all disagree with your point of view. That's more than enough for me.
 
Suit yourself then.

The context of Potara > fusion statement can be take in different ways. and even if Potara WAS meant to be stronger than dance back then, it means nothing now.
 
Kepekley23 said:
ZERO7772 said:
New jump scan says Gogeta = Vegito

I guess you can stick to your 23 years old headcanon then?
The only headcanon here is adhering to some random promotional statement instead of the indisputable facts in the original manga.

Goku, Vegeta, and Boo all disagree with your point of view. That's more than enough for me.
If you stick by promotional material then even that disagrees with your assesment Kanzenshuu article
 
> If you stick by promotional material then even that disagrees with your assesment Kanzenshuu article

I don't stick by promotional material, that's you.
 
Or if we go by canon chronologic villain order where the next villain is always stronger than the previous this means Broly is stronger than Jiren who is stronger than Zamasua.

It took Gogeta to defeat Broly, who is currently the strongest known threat in the series making as of his moment Gogeta stronger than Vegito.
 
Point is that "Gogeta=Vegetto" isn't new, that was from 23 years ago. The new movie promotional statement just proves that point
 
"Goku stated that merging with the Potara is the ONLY way to beat Boo"

Weak argument. It was the only way because Vegeta doesn't know dance and there was no time.

"Boo states that a potential Gogeta would be unable to match him, despite the fact he himself conceded that a potential fusion between Goku and Gohan would be able to threaten him"

Buuccolo being afraid of a potential Gokhan and Buuhan not being afraid of a potential Vegito are two completely different things. It's Buuhan overestimating himself like usual. That's not even an argument.
 
The only headcanon here is adhering to some random promotional statement instead of the indisputable facts in the original manga.

Goku, Vegeta, and Boo all disagree with your point of view. That's more than enough for me.

Really? You bring buu into this? The guy who was confident in taking vegito on?

Ya, buu is so reliable.


Anyway, retcons like this are common in dbs now. And if gogeta right now is anything to go by, you either accept that his base was hundreds of times beyond a ssj3. Or that his multiplier has been retcon. Which one is easier to believe.
 
> Weak argument. It was the only way because Vegeta doesn't know dance and there was no time.

...Is that why Goku told Elder Kaioshin he was going to try to merge with Gohan using the Metamoran Dance instead of stalling Boo until Gotenks ran out inside him? Gohan didn't know the Dance, nor did they have time either, yet Goku was still going to do it. Elder Kaioshin even points out how stupid that is.

> Buuccolo being afraid of a potential Gokhan and Buuhan not being afraid of a potential Vegito are two completely different things. It's Buuhan overestimating himself like usual. That's not even an argument.

1. You can't just make up a reason for why an uncontradicted statement isn't true and act like it's legitimate.

2. Gohan-Boo shut up as soon as the fight with Vegetto began, and started using tricks. He never told Vegetto he was unable to defeat him.

3. A character lying once doesn't mean everything they say is untrue, unless you want to go around discarding everything anyone says in the entire manga.
 
".Is that why Goku told Elder Kaioshin he was going to try to merge with Gohan using the Metamoran Dance"

Because that was the only way known to Goku before he learned about Potara.

"You can't just make up a reason for why an uncontradicted statement isn't true and act like it's legitimate."

Again, Buuccolo was weak, him being afraid of a fusion makes perfect sense. Buuhan was all powerful, him not being afraid of a fusion also makes sense with his attitude of overestimating himself. I don't see your point.
 
> Because that was the only way known to Goku before he learned about Potara.

You missed the point. Goku told Elder Kaioshin he'd IT to Earth and try to merge with Gohan despite the fact Gohan had no idea how to do the dance, nor did they have any time, instead of just stalling for a few minutes until Gotenks's SSj3 ended. Why would Metamoran not be an option included in the "any other way"?

Not only that, Goku has an entire conversation with Vegeta while inside Super Boo where he tells Vegeta that breaking the Potara is stupid because there's no guarantee they will be able to revert Gohan Boo back to normal. Why would he say that if a Fusion Dance Gogeta was an option? Are you saying Goku'd rather be merged with Vegeta forever than beat Boo and safely revert back to their normal self?

After they rip Gohan off Super Boo, Goku does bring up the Fusion Dance, but not before. Coincidentally.

> Again, Buuccolo was weak, him being afraid of a fusion makes perfect sense. Buuhan was all powerful, him not being afraid of a fusion also makes sense with his attitude of overestimating himself. I don't see your point.

Gohan Boo doesn't have that personality, so no.
 
I am willing to concede to a Gogeta = Vegetto retcon if it's actually stated in the new movie as opposed to a random Jump issue. Otherwise, the original work and its guides pretty solidly lean on Gogeta being weaker.
 
"Why would he say that if a Fusion Dance Gogeta was an option?"

Because Fusion Dance wasn't a practical option. Teaching and practicing it takes a lot of time and they were in a hurry so that Buu doesn't destroy the Earth. The chances of them fusing successfully through dance was almost nonexistent. Which makes Potara the only way, practically.

"After they rip Gohan off Super Boo, Goku does bring up the Fusion Dance, but not before. "

Because again, however impractical and no matter the odds of them pulling it off successfully, that was the only option left because Goku thought they were still no match. It's just like with Gohan.
 
> Because Fusion Dance wasn't a practical option. Teaching and practicing it takes a lot of time and they were in a hurry so that Buu doesn't destroy the Earth. The chances of them fusing successfully through dance was almost nonexistent. Which makes Potara the only way, practically

Except this doesn't make sense because Goku brings up the Fusion Dance immediately after they revert Gohan Boo back to normal Super Boo. This is still while they are inside Boo.

> Because again, however impractical and no matter the odds of them pulling it off successfully, that was the only option left because Goku thought they were still no match. It's just like with Gohan.

Goku sees Vegeta is about to shatter the Potara and panics because, and I quote, "there is no guarantee [we] will be able to return Boo to the very first one of all!"

Yet when they manage to revert Boo to Base Super Boo, Goku coincidentally decides to bring up the Fusion Dance. They are still inside Boo.

Neither the time it'd take to teach it nor the amount of times they had to try was a factor on Goku's mind.
 
Goku panics when Vegeta broke the Potara because that was the only practical way to win. Later, Goku brings up the fact that it's Vegeta's fault for breaking the Potara, then he brings up the fusion dance as the very last resort because they have no other practical option left.

Nothing here suggests Dance < Potara. The context only points to how potara is preferable over dance due to the process of fusion. Time was obviously a factor because they thought Buu will destroy Earth.
 
That isn't stated. Goku sees Vegeta has broke the Potara and immediately yells he shouldn't have done that because, again, I literally quote the exact statement: "There is no guarantee we will be able to revert Boo back to the very first one of all!"

Which immediately means Goku has zero confidence on winning a fight with Gohan Boo without the Potara. He doesn't mention the Fusion Dance as the last resort at all in this statement, despite the fact he could have easily had, because, as he said himself, there is no way to beat Boo without the Potara.

Then, after Vegeta rips Gohan off of Super Boo, leading to him reverting to base Super Boo, Vegeta hastily tries to leave before Goku tells him they are still no match to Boo, but then he proceeds by saying there is one way they can win now...the Fusion Dance.

Goku's whole pla was rescuing Gohan and the others. Gohan is able to beat Super Boo in a heartbeat if he so wishes, and Goku is aware of that. Going by that logic, waiting for Gohan to wake up would be far less risky than using the Fusion Dance. Guess what Goku decided to choose (only after Super Boo is back to normal, not when he had Gohan absorbed).

Just goes on to show this practicity argument isn't what Goku was thinking at all. That logic doesn't work out when everything is taken into account.
 
"There is no guarantee we will be able to revert Boo back to the very first one of all!" =/= "There is no way to beat Buuhan without the Potara." Again two different things. Goku is obviously upset because Vegeta broke a tool which could grant them an easy win. Doesn't mean a potential Gogeta would have failed. Goku not mentioning the dance doesn't mean it's weaker. Since the context is about Goku being upset at Vegeta sabotaging such an easy way. The dance is just impractical and the chances of them pulling it off were very very bleak.

Waiting for Gohan was not an option since they didn't know how much longer it would take. They were in a hurry because they were afraid Buu might destroy the Earth. Their only option was to go out and fight and only option to win was fusion. But since potara was not available, it all came down to dance.

The entire context is about the inefficiency of dance as compared to potara. Not that dance is weaker than potara.
 
The dance was weaker power wise to potara tho, this is just likely a retcon. No way did the z era fusion dance give such ridiculous boosts.
 
> "There is no guarantee we will be able to revert Boo back to the very first one of all!" =/= "There is no way to beat Buuhan without the Potara." Again two different things. Goku is obviously upset because Vegeta broke a tool which could grant them an easy win. Doesn't mean a potential Gogeta would have failed. Goku not mentioning the dance doesn't mean it's weaker. Since the context is about Goku being upset at Vegeta sabotaging such an easy way.

The context has literally nothing to do with that. The actual statement completely goes against that:

  • Context: Goku points out that if he and Vegeta aren't merged, Vegeta will have to return to the afterlife
  • Vegeta: "Hmph…That's better than being merged with you…Anyway, there shouldn't be any need for us to merge anymore, right?"
  • Goku: "We can't know that! There's [no] guarantee that we'll be able to successfully rescue everyone who got absorbed from here and return Boo to the very first one of all…!"
The statement is clear. They need the Potara to win. The Dance is mentioned nor suggested literally nowhere until Boo has been brought down to a level where it wil be able to wwin.

> Waiting for Gohan was not an option since they didn't know how much longer it would take.They were in a hurry because they were afraid Buu might destroy the Earth. Their only option was to go out and fight and only option to win was fusio

That's right, the Dance was the best option. Only after Super Boo was reverted to his normal form. Before that, the only way to win was the Potara, as stated.

Also, no, Goku was not planning on going out anytime soon.

  • Vegeta: "Alright! Let's blast out of here and escape!"
  • Goku: "Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we're still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we'll definitely be done in…!"
Goku's plan was to do the Fusion Dance inside Boo, and then blast a hole onto him and escape.
 
That whole discussion is based around a WSJ article statement that contradict their previous statetement from 23 years ago where they said that Gogeta would win in a 30 minute fight.

AKA it's pointless since WSJ article without input from either Toei or Toriyama aren't worth much.
 
I always found it funny that even with Gogeta 30min time limit before the fusion ends. There is nothing stoping Goku and Vegeta from fusing again and again and again after every 30min fight is over.
 
Even if there wasn't, if you were fighting an enemy that you couldn't beat while fused fighting for 30 minutes then they would kill you easily after the time runs out before you can dance again.
 
"The statement is clear. They need the Potara to win. "

No. Misinterpretation. They need to merge to win because they can't beat him alone. Goku's statement is the answer to Vegeta's statement that "they don't need to merge". Goku was just upset because Vegeta broke the sure shot way to victory. In no way does it establish Potara > Dance.

"That's right, the Dance was the best option. Only after Super Boo was reverted to his normal form."

No, it was the last option only because the potara was broken. Again, in no way does this statement suggest any power comparison between potara and dance.

Again, there is no direct power comparison between the potara and fusion dance in DB canon. Just one statement from Elder Kai which is misinterpreted by fans to fit their purpose.
 
Can someone render SSJ Broly from this?

Blog-in-article-Broly
 
Back
Top