Bringing back DBS Pretty Black Hole Legitimacy

[Jaakor48]

Okay, first off the pretty black hole feat by Goku was here because the staff didn't feel it behaved like a regular black hole. I'll show why it's valid boy addressing all the counter points and adding a few of my own. I'll be as brief and concise as possible. Here is the official Black Hole article for the site and this is the full video of the black hole which I'll break down

1) THE MODE OF FORMATION
THe black hole was formed in an explicit statement by Whis. This is pretty much how a black hole is formed, with the only difference being that instead of normal physical matter, they physically materialized their love into a point in space to create a mass of gravity, this is nearly word for word with a black hole. According to the black hole guidelines shared above, a black hole created by energy or Mon matter forms is accepted as long as there are supporting materials to show it's a black hole, which are provided below

2) ITS ABILITY TO SUCK OBJECTS IN A RADIUS AROUND IT
The Black Hole from the moment it was formed CLEARLY showed the property of sucking in debris as well as mftl+ energy blasts none of which were on its "surface" when it sucked them in, Incase anyone else needs clarification, the blast from 18 wasn't aimed at the black hole, it was aimed at the fighters, the black hole drew it into itself. It's also clear that the fighters who formed it have control on what it pulls and what it doesn't as they were clearly in the range of its pull when it pulled 18's ki blast but weren't affected, this should be obvious seeing as they can manipulate it but still, crossing all Ts. Also, it got BIGGER once it ate 18s ki blast

3) ITS GRAVITATIONAL PULL ON LIGHT
This is one of the strongest properties that show it behaves like a black hole as LIGHT can't escape it, only one thing has gravity this strong.

4) LIGHT BEING "EMITTED" AND AROUND THE BLACK HOLE
For those who may not be too familiar with the processes of black holes, this may look like a red flag, but actually, it's very scientifically accurate to have light emitted around a black hole (ironic, yes I know). Before I explain it, I simply have to clarify one thing, the light did NOT come from INSIDE the black hole, as anyone can clearly see, there is no light source inside, and it was stated that light couldn't get out, the only light sources inside were SSJB Goku's Aura and Kamehameha and only the latter escaped after a STRUGGLE . Now for the second part, the light "around" the black hole, is quite common and EXPLAINED, in summary for those who don't want to read and entire scientific articles, black holes don't emit light from within, but the speed at which matter- mostly gaseous matter- moves around them causes the matter to heat up which produces lights accross various wavelengths including visible light around the black hole, this is called an ACCRETION DISK. Here's an EXAMPLE of a natural black hole with light around it So while this property may appear to discredit the feat, it's actually one the best points and a very surprisingly ACCURATE description

5) INSTANT TRANSMISSION
Now another (rather silly) point against this technique is that, Goku couldn't use instant transmission inside, meaning the black hole had power null.properties not inherent in natural black holes. First off, it didn't annul anything, Goku DID USE it, it simply didn't get him out, a Black Hole is literally a construct that utterly bends space time, if you need more info, you can see it here. It interfering with a teleportation technique is not far fetched. Secondly, even if it did have a power null ability, that would have zero impact on its gravitational properties, it would merely be a bonus

6) GOKU'S KAMEHAMEHA "INTERACTED" WITH THE BLACK HOLE
Goku's Kamehameha/KI has interacted with separate chronal dimensions as well as intangible things (Hit), abstracts (Zamasu), him interacting with the gravity field of the Black Hole, is just another Tuesday.

7) NARRATOR'S STATEMENT/AUTHOR'S INTENT
CLEAR AS DAY
Nothing much to say here. Simply that

SUMMARY​

1) It is made by mass/energy focused into a single point like a black hole
2) It's gravity is strong enough to prevent light from escaping, again, only a black hole has this
3) It has a radius of effect on its gravitational pull as seen during and after 18 fires her ki blast
4) It has an accretion disk like regular black holes around it
5) The narrator calls it a black hole

Basically, all counter points against it have been appropriately addressed in those 7 points, any other discrepancy, if any, is simply based on aesthetics. The initial calc of the feat for Goku, stated at the top of this post - if this revision is accepted- should be brought back as a boon for a tired base Goku's lifting strength (it's his body weight), with appropriate multipliers based on his higher forms. Also those who scale to his LS gets this as well

EDIT
Whether or not this gets accepted as a black hole, another alternative route is being proposed. Treat it as an artificially created celestial body dense enough to have its own gravity. When it was initially created, it sucked things in, when they controlled it downwards, it acted like a black mass which is the main issue people are having against it. We should be allowed to calculate it's acceleration due to gravity, we have the radius and escape velocity via scaling to 18's basic attacks, we simply find its mass via the escape velocity formula and then find its 'g' through the gravitational formula

AGREE 3(1): @LephyrTheRevanchist , @LuffyRuffy46307, @Jaakor48

NEUTRAL1(1): @DarkDragonMedeus

DISAGREE 2(0): @Nullflowerblush, @Reiner

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I really agree with everything

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Not that im fans with dragon ball but i see problems with it.
Its heart shapped.
There is sound and people can see each other which implies light and sound.
The part where the black hole is created its weight is breaking the ground but it should be sucking it.
Ans it seems a black hole made of little heart shapped black holes.

 

[Jaakor48]

Not that im fans with dragon ball but i see problems with it.
Its heart shapped.
There is sound and people can see each other which implies light and sound.
The part where the black hole is created its weight is breaking the ground but it should be sucking it.
Ans it seems a black hole made of little heart shapped black holes.

It's "shape" is down to the user themselves creating it that way, how it looks in an anime doesn't take away anything about how it functions, and I addressed the fact that they could freely control it, these are minor deviations that don't affect its basic function as the site's black hole article allows


Not sure what you mean by they could see each other, no one could see inside, we could see them because the show is showing us what's going on inside

When it was created, it was suspended in space like a normal one, it was the fighters that controlled it to sink, we clearly see it sucking things in before they moved it downwards, all.thisbwas covered in the OP

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

It's "shape" is down to the user themselves creating it that way, how it looks in an anime doesn't take away anything about how it functions, and I addressed the fact that they could freely control it, these are minor deviations that don't affect its basic function as the site's black hole article allows

Shape affects the gravitacional field that should be sphere like because the field extends equally to all directions.

Not sure what you mean by they could see each other, no one could see inside, we could see them because the show is showing us what's going on inside

It seems like they were talking to each other so seems like they could see each other but having sound still contradicts.

When it was created, it was suspended in space like a normal one, it was the fighters that controlled it to sink, we clearly see it sucking things in before they moved it downwards, all.thisbwas covered in the OP

Thats a problem because if the black hole is being affected so that its gravity change between scenes it doesnt act as a actual black hole.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

A magical, heart-shaped mass of gravity without a singularity ≠ real life black hole.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

— "Even though the Pretty Black Hole possesses several characteristics of a genuine black hole; for example, being composed of unfathomable amounts of gravity and absorbing light; black holes in real life possess a gravitational pull that extends for several miles and suck in anything around itself, whereas the Pretty Black Hole only absorbed targets that came in contact with its surface, similar to a magical bubble. Additionally, while the centers of black holes are gravitational singularities — sections of the universe where space-time itself is broken down catastrophically, rendering "where" and "when" obsolete — that rip anything and everything apart infinitely with no escape, the Pretty Black Hole is simply described as an overwhelming mass of gravity and has no such center, with its core being more akin to a large, empty room where the weight is at its greatest."

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

I saw a video on youtube that a black hole the size of a coin could completely destroy earth in minutes, this one is around 2 times the size of goku. Dont know if this is being to picky but DBS one is nowhere close to that

 

[Jaakor48]

Shape affects the gravitacional field that should be sphere like because the field extends equally to all directions.

It seems like they were talking to each other so seems like they could see each other but having sound still contradicts.

Thats a problem because if the black hole is being affected so that its gravity change between scenes it doesnt act as a actual black hole.

I showed a video of the black hole they made, it was clearly sucking from all around.
No one talked to each other between the black hole and outside, Goku was pretty much talking to himself
It's gravity never changed, a black hole can be moved

— "Even though the Pretty Black Hole possesses several characteristics of a genuine black hole; for example, being composed of unfathomable amounts of gravity and absorbing light; black holes in real life possess a gravitational pull that extends for several miles and suck in anything around itself, whereas the Pretty Black Hole only absorbed targets that came in contact with its surface, similar to a magical bubble. Additionally, while the centers of black holes are gravitational singularities — sections of the universe where space-time itself is broken down catastrophically, rendering "where" and "when" obsolete — that rip anything and everything apart infinitely with no escape, the Pretty Black Hole is simply described as an overwhelming mass of gravity and has no such center, with its core being more akin to a large, empty room where the weight is at its greatest."

Already addressed all this on the OP, especially the "surface absorption" part in my second point, and it clearly had a center as Whis blatantly states that their weight is focused on a single point to create the mass of gravity, it's not like you cab actually see the center point of a black hole IRL, key alone in fiction. Black holes are infinite at the center point itself, no one is giving Goku infinite LS here, and no one side Goku was inside the center. Goku's space time technique not working was additional proof of the effect on space time inside, all this has been addressed

 

[Jaakor48]

I saw a video on youtube that a black hole the size of a coin could completely destroy earth in minutes, this one is around 2 times the size of goku. Dont know if this is being to picky but DBS one is nowhere close to that

No one comes close to what? Goku has universal+ AP in base at this point

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

@Damage3245 @DarkDragonMedeus @LordGriffin1000 @Maverick_Zero_X

Thoughts?

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

No one comes close to what? Goku has universal+ AP in base at this point

One of the things black hole have on this wiki is durability negation

rue black holes are virtually inescapable unless one can move faster-than-light and ignore conventional durability because the incredible tidal forces within the black hole approach infinity in all directions, making it virtually impossible to survive through normal means unless the target is an entire dimensional tier above the user.

So it doesnt matter if Goku is universal or if the ground is multiversal

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

I showed a video of the black hole they made, it was clearly sucking from all around.
No one talked to each other between the black hole and outside, Goku was pretty much talking to himself
It's gravity never changed, a black hole can be moved

So does Chibaku tensei from Naruto doesnt make them black holes.
Goku was talking and his mouth was moving so it wasnt just thinking.
One moment it was sucking things around it the other it was just heavy and not sucking the ground around it

 

[Jaakor48]

One of the things black hole have on this wiki is durability negation

So it doesnt matter if Goku is universal or if the ground is multiversal.

Ignored conventional durability, and that's for tanking the actual center where the forces approach infinity, no one is giving them that, and as for conventional durability, DBS characters, like Goku and Vegeta protect themselves from non convention attacks like absolute zero, intangibility or shattering another chronal dimensional via their ki

So does Chibaku tensei from Naruto doesnt make them black holes.
Goku was talking and his mouth was moving so it wasnt just thinking.
One moment it was sucking things around it the other it was just heavy and not sucking the ground around it

I am not sure if you actually read the OP or not, because I clearly addressed WHY all these happened

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Well, for my simpleton mind, I have always agreed it should be treated as legit. However, the sites standards are very strict here.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Ignored conventional durability, and that's for tanking the actual center where the forces approach infinity, no one is giving them that, and as for conventional durability, DBS characters, like Goku and Vegeta protect themselves from non convention attacks like absolute zero, intangibility or shattering another chronal dimensional via their ki

So them being inside the black heart shaped is not the black hole? Then there is no point in even considering this feat. It doesnt matter if they have 10 other forms of protection against non conventional attacks they need a specific one to survive, also a ki blast can be absorbed by the supposed black hole

I am not sure if you actually read the OP or not, because I clearly addressed WHY all these happened

Not quite you didnt explained why Goku is talking or why the Black hole goes from sucking things around it to being only heavy while not sucking anything, not even talking just about characters but the ground, air, ki, clothes and so on.

 

[Jaakor48]

Well, for my simpleton mind, I have always agreed it should be treated as legit. However, the sites standards are very strict here.

Yes, I checked it ,and this one ticks the boxes, especially this part, where the narrator itself states such

Aside from recognizing what is not a realistic black hole, it is also important to figure out what might be a black hole in the first place. Under normal circumstances, if a character encounters something resembling a black hole, there will be a statement regarding that. If the statement is from a reliable source and it doesn't behave in an unrealistic manner as outlined previously, it can be safely assumed to be a proper black hole.

And this one, we saw with 18's blast

If for any reason the statement is unreliable, typical black hole properties such as bending light also outside the event horizon.

Or here, where Whis basically explains how it's made and almost verbatim like a black hole

In the event that there is not a statement about a black hole-like object actually being a black hole at all, one could still argue it to be a black hole if the method of creation is known. If, for instance, it is created by extreme compression of an appropriate amount of matter or due to the collapse of a large star, the assumption that the resulting mass is a black hole would be reasonable.

The main issue is if Goku tanked the actual singularity, which no one is attributing, the calc I linked at the top, is only calculating based on the natural gravity it has outside the singularity

Now out of the reasons stated above a regular 3-dimensional character would get destroyed when approaching the singularity (the center of the black hole). The tidal forces would become infinite and he or she would be destroyed no matter how high his or her durability is. As such, since saying that a characters durability is infinite is usually an enormous outlier, surviving a singularity can extremely seldom be taken as a durability feat. It can only be understood as a feat for resistance against black holes

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm neutral for now.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

I understand the requirements for being a black hole, but why here the "a black hole of this size would completely destroy x things and absorb all light" thing seems to be treated so harshly as an anti-feat? Not even Garou's black hole that is made by the power to control the forces of the universe has the suction power as great as a real one.

Of course, DBS has other things that make it hard to be accepted as the format of the thing as well as the property it's made of, which along with what I said above, can snowball. I'm just saying that not even black holes that have a more real and scientific origin escape these "anti-facts" like the suction power.

I'm neutral on whether or not it's a black hole, I don't know the exact rules.

But isn't there a way to calculate this black heart? Whis says it has mass, can absorb ki attacks, etc. Isn't there some way to calculate how much mass it has?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

The Pretty Black Hole is the product of the Power of Love, a magical, empathetic energy that manifests through cheers and prayers. The black hole itself is the Power of Love. This is not a real black hole.

 

[Golden_Void]

It was only referenced as being stronger than Bulma's chamber iirc, which is only 300g. A black hole with one solar mass has 1.6 trillion G. Unless there are some insane multipliers laying around, idk.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

It was only referenced as being stronger than Bulma's chamber iirc, which is only 300g. A black hole with one solar mass has 1.6 trillion G. Unless there are some insane multipliers laying around, idk.

to be fair that is stronger even if massively so

Lmfao, anyways I'm pretty neutral on this.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It was only referenced as being stronger than Bulma's chamber iirc, which is only 300g. A black hole with one solar mass has 1.6 trillion G. Unless there are some insane multipliers laying around, idk.

Vegeta actually trained in a 1000G chamber near the beginning of BoG saga, and he trained in 400G and later 450G's was mentioned as something he considered "Too easy" in Buu saga.

 

[Jaakor48]

I understand the requirements for being a black hole, but why here the "a black hole of this size would completely destroy x things and absorb all light" thing seems to be treated so harshly as an anti-feat? Not even Garou's black hole that is made by the power to control the forces of the universe has the suction power as great as a real one.

This black hole has the same gravitational pull on light as a real one, specifically noted that light can't escape. It was indeed absorbing debris, the stage is made of the densest material in the multiverse, all fighters there were easily mftl+ and ad the fact that the universe 2 love fighters could control both the suction and movement (explained in the OP), the black hole not having not much environmental damage can be easily explained, then again, like you said, many black holes in fiction don't corresponded with the environmental damage seen

Of course, DBS has other things that make it hard to be accepted as the format of the thing as well as the property it's made of, which along with what I said above, can snowball. I'm just saying that not even black holes that have a more real and scientific origin escape these "anti-facts" like the suction power.

I'm neutral on whether or not it's a black hole, I don't know the exact rules.

But isn't there a way to calculate this black heart? Whis says it has mass, can absorb ki attacks, etc. Isn't there some way to calculate how much mass it has?

It's made from them physically materializing the "weight of their love" and "condensing it to a single point"(scan is on OP), this is verbatim how an actual black hole is formed,nthe only difference is a different source from regular matter is used, this site black hole rules (scan in OP) allow this as long as further evidence that it acts like one is proven.
A calc has been made but was rejected because some staff back then didn't think this rises to an actual black hole, hence this thread

The Pretty Black Hole is the product of the Power of Love, a magical, empathetic energy that manifests through cheers and prayers. The black hole itself is the Power of Love. This is not a real black hole.

Yes, their love is energy. First scan merely shows that they are empowered by love, they clearly physically manifest this energy as can be seen, and Whis blatantly tells us how the black hole is formed, vsbattle wiki black hole specifically allows condensing energy and the like to form a black hole of other supporting evidence is available, which it is.

It was only referenced as being stronger than Bulma's chamber iirc, which is only 300g. A black hole with one solar mass has 1.6 trillion G. Unless there are some insane multipliers laying around, idk.

Makes sense, that's the closest thing Goku could compare it to, Bulma's machine has the highest gravitational force he's felt until the black hole. Way back before Vegeta got his super Saiyan, be trained under 450g or so, before it exploded

 

[Reiner04]

Black hole touched the ground and just acted like a weight thing rather than absorbing stage and everything around, even sand and dust can be clearly seen to wind away from the blackhole. It's definitely not a irl blackhole is given. I Disagree.

 

[Jaakor48]

Black hole touched the ground and just acted like a weight thing rather than absorbing stage and everything around, even sand and dust can be clearly seen to wind away from the blackhole. It's definitely not a irl blackhole is given. I Disagree.

It was clearly absorbing everything around it until the universe 2 people specifically targeted U7 and had it sink into the stage,and we've seen that they can completely control what it sucks in. The wiki accepts thsy fictional black holes need not complete match irl ones as long as there is sufficient feats to show it's a black hole

- It's created by concentrating mass/energy into one point to create a mass of gravity - this is verbatim how a black hole forms

- it's gravity is strong enough to bend light as well as prevent it from escaping - ONLY a black hole does this

- It affects space time as IT couldn't escape it

- It has an accretion disk around it like ak actual black hole

- it sucked in debris from a distance around it

- the narrator itself calls it a black hole, it's clearly the author's intent

There is far more evidence towards it than otherwise

 

[Chariot190]

But does it spaghettify?

 

[SirAlex09]

So how high does the Force have to be to attract light and MFTL+ energy beams and prevent Goku from teleporting away? Even if it's not a blackhole, it should have power equal to one.

 

[Jaakor48]

But does it spaghettify?

Seeing as it completely integrated 18's ki beam and then grew bigger, that would be a yes, otherwise that wouldn't have happened

So how high does the Force have to be to attract light and MFTL+ energy beams and prevent Goku from teleporting away? Even if it's not a blackhole, it should have power equal to one.

This is another point, if anything it wouod he even more powerful, lol, outside the event horizon, ftl objects can theoretically escape

• It had gravity string enough to stop light from escaping - Only a black hole has this
• It is formed from condensing matter/energy into one point - again, only a black hole is formed like this
• it's straight up called one in the show, showing the author's intent

 

[Chariot190]

Seeing as it completely integrated 18's ki beam and then grew bigger, that would be a yes, otherwise that wouldn't have happened

That isn't what spaghettification is though? Like, at all?

 

[Da3ggman]

God, I have a lot of mixed feelings on this. I'll probably go a bit more in-depth tonight when I get back from a debate, but until then count me as neutral.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

That isn't what spaghettification is though? Like, at all?

Clip, for reference.

 

[Reiner04]

It was clearly absorbing everything around it until the universe 2 people specifically targeted U7 and had it sink into the stage,and we've seen that they can completely control what it sucks in. The wiki accepts thsy fictional black holes need not complete match irl ones as long as there is sufficient feats to show it's a black hole

Can I see such Statement that "they can control what it sucks in"? As it seems like a point that has been made to twist the anti feat rather than addressing it.

Blackholes being theorised as such in fiction is common thing, what's important is that if it's act like one or not, dust and all getting away from mass as heavy as blackhole definitely leaves a question on its credibility. Sucking things in is Blackhole basic property, it having it doesn't mean much but it not acting like a proper blackhole consistently does. Author intents and statements matters less than an actual depiction of something.

 

[speedster352]

I agree with the op

 

[Jaakor48]

That isn't what spaghettification is though? Like, at all?

I know what it is, I am saying that as it could drag in stuff and grow, it wouod have to be able to spaghettify, Also it did something similar to 18's blast as this One did. Obviously it didn't affect Goku which is the point of their CT

 

[theultimate5105]

It is shaped like a heart
This makes absolutely zero sense with how black holes work
It’s event horizon also doesn’t act like a black hole as it is clearly something that exists whereas a event horizon is merely the point where light cannot escape

 

[Jaakor48]

It is shaped like a heart
This makes absolutely zero sense with how black holes work.

This is an aesthetic difference, absolutely doesn't take anything away from the workings of this technique, and such minor differences are ignored if the other workings of the black hole. It's like saying king Kai's planet is not a planet because of how dense while still made of rock

It’s event horizon also doesn’t act like a black hole as it is clearly something that exists whereas a event horizon is merely the point where light cannot escape

Not sure what you mean here, even horizon is the region where light can't escape, ergo, the 'black surface' of black holes, it's not the same as the actual singularity of the black hole, which is the point where the matter is focused up to infinity. The event horizon was clearly shown, and light couldn't escape

 

[theultimate5105]

This is an aesthetic difference, absolutely doesn't take anything away from the workings of this technique, and such minor differences are ignored if the other workings of the black hole. It's like saying king Kai's planet is not a planet because of how dense while still made of rock

Not sure what you mean here, even horizon is the region where light can't escape, ergo, the 'black surface' of black holes, it's not the same as the actual singularity of the black hole, which is the point where the matter is focused up to infinity. The event horizon was clearly shown, and light couldn't escape

It is not a minor difference
The event horizon being shaped like a heart literally makes it so that it cannot be a true black hole
A Black holes event horizon needs to be a sphere as that is how Gravity works

 

[Chariot190]

I know what it is, I am saying that as it could drag in stuff and grow, it wouod have to be able to spaghettify, Also it did something similar to 18's blast as this One did. Obviously it didn't affect Goku which is the point of their CT

But it didn't spaghettify anything? None of the debris either.
Obviously I'm not including Goku as that's what the CRT itself is arguing, but chunks of rock? Kinda can't give the same excuse to that. You could argue 18's ki attack, but also not really because ki blasts leave trails like that all the time? But solid matter? Not once.

Nothing was spaghettified, things sucked in yes, but not spaghettified.

 

[Planck69]

This is very clearly not the same as a regular black hole. The fact that it glows, is somehow just crushing the arena and doesn't spaghettify, it doesn't showcase anything beyond extremely basic "black hole" properties aside. Ffs, it's heart shaped.

Disagree.