JJK's black Hole calc problem

[Buraqibear]

Introduction​

Basically, I wanted to ask if this calc which calculates the force and energy a character, Kenjaku exerts to resist a Black Hole and while the method was deemed valid and it was accepted, when it was put in a CRT a lot of CGM's, thread mods and in general and a lot of people who commented were against it and it wasn't used. So is it valid or not?
And please avoid bringing these arguments up:

It wasn't a real black hole/It wasn't a black hole yet

We see Kenjaku and light in the panel already start to get pulled towards it and different properties of real Black Holes match such as Kenjaku calling it a Black Hole, the reason it formed literally being Yuki giving herself too much virtual mass and becoming a black hole, the Black hole pulling light in, later being stated to have destroyed the world if it kept going.

Kenjaku used anti-gravity

He did, but later. Not in the scene the calc uses otherwise he wouldn't be getting pulled towards it already.

Destruction isn't realistic/He would've been pulled in too fast for him to react

This is true, but destruction isn't realistic in 99% of black holes in fictions, this black hole is treated as being pretty realistic and furthermore there is an argument against this being that

Yuki's will and Tengen's barriers limited it's range and shut it off.

We don't get durability from tanking black holes

The black hole page on the wiki states that rule only for 3 dimensional characters withstanding a singularity, which is NOT what is happening here.

 

[M3X_2.0]

The calc is valid, but the applications need to be separated properly.

Durability measures how much destructive energy a character can withstand. A black hole pulling you isn't dealing structural damage to your body, it's exerting a gravitational force that moves you. Those are fundamentally different things. Kenjaku didn't tank the black hole, he resisted it, so his durability isn't what's being tested here.

What the calc actually establishes is two things:

1. The gravitational force value (Class P) is what Kenjaku had to overcome through his own effort. That's Lifting Strength by definition.
2. The PE difference (1.8930047×10^17 J, City level) is the energy Kenjaku actively outputted to move against the gravitational gradient. That maps to the AP of his technique, since it's energy he generated as output, not energy he absorbed as damage.

That said, the City level AP value is unreliable. The calc assumes Kenjaku was displaced 10cm before resisting, but there's no basis for that number in the scan. On top of that, the relationship is inverse: the greater the displacement, the lower the resulting energy, since PE becomes less negative as distance from the black hole increases. This means 10cm is actually an implicit high-end, not a neutral estimate, which makes the AP conclusion even less reliable. Until there's a proper way to determine the actual displacement from the source, that part of the calc shouldn't be used.

 

[M3X_2.0]

I'll also tag @Agnaa because he was involved with the calc.

 

[Qurbonboev]

On top of that, the relationship is inverse: the greater the displacement, the lower the resulting energy, since PE becomes less negative as distance from the black hole increases. This means 10cm is actually an implicit high-end, not a neutral estimate, which makes the AP conclusion even less reliable.

No, if displacement is greater, PE differential(what is being calculated) increases.
For example , if we assumed that he moved 20cm:
PEinitial= -(6.67430×10^−11×2.513699×10^26×72)/(0.844) = 1.4316672304042048*10^18 joules

PEfinal= -(6.67430×10^−11×2.513699×10^26×72)/(0.644) = 1.876284*10^18 joules

PE Difference would be around 4.45*10^17 joules, x2.35 times greater than in case of 10cm displacement

 

[M3X_2.0]

No, if displacement is greater, PE differential(what is being calculated) increases.
For example , if we assumed that he moved 20cm:
PEinitial= -(6.67430×10^−11×2.513699×10^26×72)/(0.844) = 1.4316672304042048*10^18 joules

PEfinal= -(6.67430×10^−11×2.513699×10^26×72)/(0.644) = 1.876284*10^18 joules

PE Difference would be around 4.45*10^17 joules, x2.35 times greater than in case of 10cm displacement

You're right, I made a mistake there. Greater displacement does increase the PE differential since Kenjaku is moving further away from a region of very negative PE, so 10cm is a low-end, not a high-end. I concede that point.

That said, this actually makes the calc less reliable, not more. If the displacement is arbitrary and could be significantly higher, the result scales up with no methodological control. 10cm has no basis in the scan, and since larger values only push the result higher, the calc is essentially a lower bound with no upper limit. Until there's a proper way to determine the actual displacement from the source, the AP result shouldn't be used.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Snip

Two questions:
1. Is method that Eljoaki tried to use here viable at all?
2. About anti gravity. If there any way to calculate work done by it? Assume that we can estimate distance Kenjaku moved while under it

 

[Ozcantabak]

Doesn't this calc find Kenjaku's displacement via comparing the initial and final distance between their heads ?

 

[Epyriel]

Basically, I wanted to ask if this calc which calculates the force and energy a character, Kenjaku exerts to resist a Black Hole and while the method was deemed valid and it was accepted, when it was put in a CRT a lot of CGM's, thread mods and in general and a lot of people who commented were against it and it wasn't used. So is it valid or not?
And please avoid bringing these arguments up:

It wasn't a real black hole/It wasn't a black hole yet

We see Kenjaku and light in the panel already start to get pulled towards it and different properties of real Black Holes match such as Kenjaku calling it a Black Hole, the reason it formed literally being Yuki giving herself too much virtual mass and becoming a black hole, the Black hole pulling light in, later being stated to have destroyed the world if it kept going.

Can’t not bring that up when that was the whole main point of contention.

You are correct in saying “the reason it formed literally being Yuki giving herself too much virtual mass and becoming a black hole” - she was gradually adding mass and gradually pushing towards the Schwarzschild limit.

This is both the narrative intent of the scene and matches the physical properties of an increasing mass.

Narratively, Yuki and Kenjaku are both talking about what happens when Yuki keeps adding virtual mass to herself through her technique as she is doing so. Eventually she hits the Schwarzschild limit for a human, but she hasn’t hit it yet.

We see this increase in gravity happen as they are talking: Kenjaku is getting stretched more and more as gravity is increasing as she is getting closer to the Schwarzschild limit, the surrounding area is also gaining cracks (a far cry from the actual gravity of a black hole, showing evidence that they haven’t reached that point yet, but something that is solved in the next panel when it actually forms).

This also matches the physical shape, with Yuki being distorted by the increasing mass in a sharp angled uneven blob, but something that snaps into a perfect sphere in the next panel when the black hole actually forms as you would expect.

Also matches the speed of the characters, with the actual process of Yuki increasing her virtual mass with her technique giving time for her to monologue about what is happening (presumably for the sake of the binding vow) and giving time for Kenjaku to realize what is about to happen and prepare antigravity system. Whereas if it was already a black hole, they should be experiencing a truly absurd acceleration (around 120,365,999,863,894,432 m/s^2) that you’d be hard pressed to argue Dabura would be able to react to at all, let alone casually outspeed by such an absurd margin as to have an entire discussion while it is happening, let alone Kenjaku doing so who is currently listed as supersonic.

furthermore there is an argument against this being that Yuki's will and Tengen's barriers limited it's range and shut it off.

Now sure, you could try to argue the reason none of the properties match those of a black hole yet is because Yuki is limiting it and Tengen is restricting it with his barriers. While personally I would argue it doesn’t make much sense for Tengen to be restricting its range in front of Kenjaku rather than at a generous distance around them as seen in the next panel when it actually forms a black hole, but it doesn’t really matter since this argument is self-defeating. If you are using Yuki and Tengen’s restrictions to explain why none of the properties yet match a black hole, you can’t also calculate this as if Kenjaku is resisting a full powered black hole - because by that logic he isn’t doing so.

 

[Buraqibear]

Narratively, Yuki and Kenjaku are both talking about what happens when Yuki keeps adding virtual mass to herself through her technique as she is doing so. Eventually she hits the Schwarzschild limit for a human, but she hasn’t hit it yet.

Yuki doesn't have to add mass to her whole body simultaneously, the black hole formed at around her stomach area we see light and herself being puled towards her stomach area in the next panel

We see this increase in gravity happen as they are talking: Kenjaku is getting stretched more and more as gravity is increasing as she is getting closer to the Schwarzschild limit, the surrounding area is also gaining cracks (a far cry from the actual gravity of a black hole, showing evidence that they haven’t reached that point yet, but something that is solved in the next panel when it actually forms).

This falls back into the "Destruction isn't realistic" argument, the destruction and pull a black hole causes isn't realistic in most pieces of fiction black holes are in, she had already become a black hole, and again, we see light being pulled into it, it matches the properties of black holes, it pulls stuff in, it is called a black hole and it behaves like one, the black patch on her stomach area can't really be anything other than a black hole

This also matches the physical shape, with Yuki being distorted by the increasing mass in a sharp angled uneven blob, but something that snaps into a perfect sphere in the next panel when the black hole actually forms as you would expect.

I think this is just artistic flair and the page warping to show the black hole's pull and effects, the black hole in the next panel isn't a perfect sphere either, it has some artistic touches and spikes at various points.

Also matches the speed of the characters, with the actual process of Yuki increasing her virtual mass with her technique giving time for her to monologue about what is happening (presumably for the sake of the binding vow) and giving time for Kenjaku to realize what is about to happen and prepare antigravity system. Whereas if it was already a black hole, they should be experiencing a truly absurd acceleration (around 120,365,999,863,894,432 m/s^2) that you’d be hard pressed to argue Dabura would be able to react to at all, let alone casually outspeed by such an absurd margin as to have an entire discussion while it is happening, let alone Kenjaku doing so who is currently listed as supersonic.

While true, it again ties back into the point of pull of black holes not being realistic in fiction, though you could make the argument that since it doesn't cause that level of destruction it isn't fair to use it in a calc assuming it's as strong as a real black hole though that seems too strict, I'll wait and see what other mods think of this

 

[Epyriel]

Yuki doesn't have to add mass to her whole body simultaneously, the black hole formed at around her stomach area we see light and herself being puled towards her stomach area in the next panel

There is no solid evidence of light beams being pulled in.

I think this is just artistic flair and the page warping to show the black hole's pull and effects, the black hole in the next panel isn't a perfect sphere either, it has some artistic touches and spikes at various points.

There is a significant difference between the two, the former as no definable event horizon - the “artistic touches” is all its got, which is exactly what you would expect if Yuki was just increasing in mass at a rapid rate without having reached the Schwarzschild limit. Meanwhile the following panel has a clearly defined spherical cutoff as you would expect of a classic depiction of an event horizon.

This falls back into the "Destruction isn't realistic" argument, the destruction and pull a black hole causes isn't realistic in most pieces of fiction black holes are in, she had already become a black hole, and again, we see light being pulled into it, it matches the properties of black holes, it pulls stuff in, it is called a black hole and it behaves like one, the black patch on her stomach area can't really be anything other than a black hole

While true, it again ties back into the point of pull of black holes not being realistic in fiction, though you could make the argument that since it doesn't cause that level of destruction it isn't fair to use it in a calc assuming it's as strong as a real black hole though that seems too strict, I'll wait and see what other mods think of this

We can’t expect a perfect depiction of a black hole in a fictional medium, but ultimately you are using the idea that there are enough realistic properties of a black hole present to substantiate it already being a black hole so that you can use the realistic pull of a black hole to calc for Kenjaku’s resistance.

As the black hole feats page put it:

While a completely correct depiction can not be expected, some basic laws have to be followed.

There is just no solid evidence, narratively or physically, for Yuki already being a black hole in the panel attempted to be calculated. And many reasons to believe she is not, with the destruction, speed, and shape all suddenly becoming far more faithful to an actual depiction of a black hole in the following panel.

 

[KingTempest]

This is a calc group discussion. If you got genuine input, go ahead, but don't comment just to comment.

 

[M3X_2.0]

I requested both comments above to be deleted by Tempest.

Everyone is allowed to comment here if they want, but do not post unnecessary comments.

“black hole shenanigans, how ‘fun’” and “I too am in this comment section” are not helpful comments. We do not care if you don’t find Black Hole discussions to be fun and we also don’t care if you are here.

Post helpful comments that will keep the discussion moving forward or simply don’t comment at all here.

Thanks.

 

[Bananossauro]

Not sure if this is for this thread or the general discussion one, but can't we scale the reversal (witch kenny used alot in the fight) to what the anti-gravity resisted when the black hole was completed and sidestep the whole "is it really a black hole at that time?" thingy or there are other problems with it outside of that?

 

[Buraqibear]

Bump

 

[Buraqibear]

Bump

 

[Arkenis]

Not sure if this is for this thread or the general discussion one, but can't we scale the reversal (witch kenny used alot in the fight) to what the anti-gravity resisted when the black hole was completed and sidestep the whole "is it really a black hole at that time?" thingy or there are other problems with it outside of that?

No because nothing says that antigrav forcibly resists the gravity, it likely creates a small area of antigravity like the reverse. The output is also unstable for the ct so we don't know of a baseline since he can't control it.

 

[Bananossauro]

No because nothing says that antigrav forcibly resists the gravity, it likely creates a small area of antigravity like the reverse. The output is also unstable for the ct so we don't know of a baseline since he can't control it.

I don't see any reason for it not being the inverse of the gravitational force he aplies with CTR but even if you're right, I don't see why the antigravity would not need to have at least the same intensity as the black hole else it would not cancel out (black hole is a 10 the antigravity would be negative 10) or you think its a "just ignores any and all gravity" type thing or am I misinterpreting what you said?

Also what evidence there is to the "unstanble output", I really don't remember such a statment, could you send the scan/chapter?

 

[Arkenis]

I don't see any reason for it not being the inverse of the gravitational force he aplies with CTR but even if you're right, I don't see why the antigravity would not need to have at least the same intensity as the black hole else it would not cancel out (black hole is a 10 the antigravity would be negative 10) or you think its a "just ignores any and all gravity" type thing or am I misinterpreting what you said?

Why would antigravity have "intensity" it's a field that removes gravity, it doesn't push away gravity or reverse. Yes, it just creates a field that ignores gravity. Also anti gravity isn't a real thing, so we're jumping pass the idea being impossible but also now arguing it also what takes away gravity or induces negative gravity?

Also what evidence there is to the "unstanble output", I really don't remember such a statment, could you send the scan/chapter?

Right after Kenjaku comes out he says it.

 

[Bananossauro]

Why would antigravity have "intensity" it's a field that removes gravity, it doesn't push away gravity or reverse. Yes, it just creates a field that ignores gravity. Also anti gravity isn't a real thing, so we're jumping pass the idea being impossible but also now arguing it also what takes away gravity or induces negative gravity?

I was under the interpretation that since the reversal applies gravity than the normal would be the inverse but i guess that is also another interpretation of the inverse of the inverse of gravity.

Though for me it is kinda weird that such a thing has an "output" to be unstable.
Such a shame it can't be used like that

 

[Buraqibear]

Bump

 

[Arkenis]

bump. What's tryna be done here again? Has this been done?

Until there's a proper way to determine the actual displacement from the source, that part of the calc shouldn't be used.

 

[Buraqibear]

What's tryna be done here again?

See if the feat valid, Epyriel argued it isn't because the black hole wasn't a black hole yet

Has this been done?

Not yet