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Booster Gold Revisions

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The first scan is from Blue Beetle #11. Released in 2017, Post-Flashpoint. Ergo, unusable here.

I'm not even sure what the second scan is meant to show. Booster gets in one kick that doesn't even illicit an "ow", and then Extant proceeds to send him flying. You'd need a lot more than this to prove Booster scales in any meaningful way.

As mentioned before, the third one takes place when Doomsday was specifically weakened. The comics in that storyline and every other story I can think of where Booster and Doomsday were featured at the same time aren't great to use for scaling anyway, since some of the characters have odd showings in those. (Prime example: Maxima being legitimately incapacitated by a gas station explosio)

  • EDIT: Actually, looking at the scan again, I'm pretty sure it comes from a Post-Flashpoint comic, not the storyline I was thinking of. I got the two stories mixed up. Even so, coming from a New 52 comic means it's unusable here anyway.
I'm told the scan involving Kryptonian robots is from Rebirth's Action Comics series. I certainly don't recognize it from anything Post-Crisis offhand, and the art style looks decidedly modern compared to everything I remember reading prior to the Flashpoint event, so I'm taking that claim at face value. If that's the truth, it's unusable here.

The scan with Rainbow Man's beams needs some context as to whether or not they should count as legitimate beams of light and not just energy blasts with special properties, especially since the very same issue of him fighting Rainbow Man has him unable to avoid a blast of light at close range.

That leaves the scan with Maxima, and while I can't remember exactly which comic it comes from (the art looks really familiar), it's probably an outlier even if there isn't any further context that explains it away.

I don't have anything to say about the scans concerning his abilities.
 
Thank you for helping out. I appreciate it.
 
Yeah, I really don't think the stat upgrades proposed here are viable. Most of these aren't even Post-Crisis feats, and the ones that are...don't seem as impressive as the OP claims? You have maybe one physical feat out of this whole list that comes from the Post-Crisis continuity and appears to be exactly what the OP describes it as, and that's not enough to skyrocket Booster up to 4-B on its own.

If I'm being really honest, even if all of these were perfectly reasonable and came from the same timeline, six feats aren't nearly enough justification for a character who has a few hundred appearances in the Post-Crisis continuity alone.
 
This makes me wonder, should we create a post-flashpoint profile for Booster? He's made a number of appearances since then and should have enough feats and abilties.
 
Well, the new abilities suggested here can probably be added to the Booster Gold (Post-Crisis) profile in any case, and we preferably should get some feat of his calculated to scale from.
 
In any case, I do think that Booster is currently rated too low. 9-A is the Batman tier, not the punching robots into shrapnel and lifting airplanes level, which is where Booster is placed. High 8-C or so seems more reasonable.
 
The punching robot feat, on getting it evaluated by some calc member, wouldn't yield anything beyond Tier 9.

Alternatively, we can list him at "At least 8-C" for upscaling from current 9-A+s by some extent.
 
I suppose that could work.

What about moving an airplane?
 
I don't think these will yield good results, since Booster is applying counteracting force not directly against the plane. I can ask a few calc members again though, we'll see
 
Antvasima said:
In any case, I do think that Booster is currently rated too low. 9-A is the Batman tier, not the punching robots into shrapnel and lifting airplanes level, which is where Booster is placed. High 8-C or so seems more reasonable.
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Can I level with you here?

Nobody who's at 9-A (much less "9-A, nearing 8-C") is going to have trouble with either of those feats. So if the "punching robots into shrapnel and lifting airplanes level" is a tier too high for Batman, then that doesn't mean Booster is rated too low. It means Batman is rated too high.
 
Also Batman never lifts a plane so that's ignorant

The most he does is drag a fighter plane from WWII

Have no idea where Ant got the airplane thing from
 
He got the airplane thing from the fact that Booster has two different showings of shouldering the weight of a plane.

Meanwhile, I'm pretty sure Batman couldn't do the same even if he wanted to. And I believe that was the point within Ant's post; that Booster should be rated higher because Batman, who is rated at a certain tier, isn't capable of replicating Booster's feats.

Problem is, if Batman can't replicate Booster's feats, then he (Batman) doesn't belong in his current tier to begin with.
 
Ah I see I thought someone was arguing Bruce can lift a plane

Honestly Bruce has a ton of feats that put him in his current range (Hell I've collected quite a few that put him slightly higher)
 
We separate the idea of Lifting Strength and Attack Potency however for that reason only? The Lifting Strength is barely replicated by fictional characters in the first place, otherwise everyone from High 8-C and above, would be Class M.

Our current DC Street Tier ratings is bizarre though, didn't we agree to not JUST use explosion calcs for street tiers, and just ended up using explosion feats for DC regardless? The explosion radius is entirely under the interpretation of the writer and are usually exaggerated. I mean I'm fine if there are other feats on this level, but they don't exactly tend to... exist, and if they do, please do share them.
 
Zark2099 said:
We separate the idea of Lifting Strength and Attack Potency however for that reason only? The Lifting Strength is barely replicated by fictional characters in the first place, otherwise everyone from High 8-C and above, would be Class M.
Click to expand...
And the other feat mentioned was shattering a robot into pieces with a single punch, which is also something Bruce has never really shown the capability to do, not in the capacity that Booster did. Many of his best striking feats I can name you offhand involve destroying concrete.

Zark2099 said:
Our current DC Street Tier ratings is bizarre though, didn't we agree to not JUST use explosion calcs for street tiers, and just ended up using explosion feats for DC regardless? The explosion radius is entirely under the interpretation of the writer and are usually exaggerated. I mean I'm fine if there are other feats on this level, but they don't exactly tend to... exist, and if they do, please do share them.
Click to expand...
It was, in fact, agreed that most of his explosion feats are not the best thing to base his entire tiering on (much less the tiering of everyone who comfortably scales to him), but nobody here has bothered to slap everyone else over the head and remind them of the things that were agreed upon and why.

As for whether or not other feats on the level exist, there's an entire subreddit where I'm pretty sure most or all of the people who support the character have gotten feats from. Give me a moment to find it, and I'll see if I can find anything that looks even remotely close.
 
Going by this, the overwhelming majority of his Post-Crisis striking feats (read: all of the ones where the text isn't in bold) are not going to put him anywhere near as high as what he's currently rated as. We're talking over a dozen showings of him punching machines and doing nowhere as much damage as Booster Gold did to the robot he punched, as well as a dozen more of him punching and kicking people through walls and such. His most consistent high-end, by a country mile, is destroying brick, stone, concrete, etc. as well as doing moderate damage to metals.

I still suck at calcs, even these days. But if I had to ballpark based on what I'm looking at, he probably belongs in 9-B. Most of these really don't look like they would yield any higher than that. In fact, I'm pretty sure only one or two of these would yield higher than that.

And before anyone says it, yes, I understand that this thread is supposed to be about Booster Gold. But if Batman's current tiering is wrong, that will most likely effect Booster's tiering and whether or not he should stay where he is. Hell, he's actually being scaled to street tiers right now, so if his own feats don't yield 9-A results, he might need a downgrade as well.
 
Honestly I've seen certain concrete/brickwall feats yield 9-A so it depends

I'm also planning a DC street level thread so we could discuss this further in depth there
 
So have I. In fact, one of the characters who has a wall-shattering feat that high is a character I supported while I was here. But looking at the scans, Bruce doesn't appear to do nearly as much damage when hitting walls, nor are the walls themselves quite as large as the one seen in the feat above. So I doubt it's going to yield quite as much.

Regardless, you're welcome to message me whenever. I tend to have other things to do, but I'm sure I can respond when I need to. The current pandemic has done wonders for my free time.
 
@MrKingOfNegativity

Would you be willing to come back as an administrator again? I would greatly appreciate the help.

If you could help revise The Dark Tower profiles according to our new system, that would also be appreciated.
 
Anyway, a lot of our Marvel and DC Comics profiles are rated from their durability feats, not their destructive ones.

Booster genuinely is more powerful than Batman tiers though, so he should be rated a bit higher.
 
Antvasima said:
@MrKingOfNegativity
Would you be willing to come back as an administrator again? I would greatly appreciate the help.

If you could help revise The Dark Tower profiles according to our new system, that would also be appreciated.
Click to expand...
I'm debating on doing the forrmer, temporarily, until you people complete the forum move. I'll be blunt, most of you are floundering right now, and the stress surrounding the move has been killing the lot of you by inches. It doesn't make me happy to say it, but you all need the help, and I'm not exactly at a loss for time right now anyway.

I'm not doing the second, though. Dealing with that verse and some of the people who involve themselves with it has been a major source of stress for me over the years, and have my own mental health to worry about. And more objectively speaking, I'm not familiar or understanding enough of the current highest ends of the new tiering system to contribute to something like that right now anyway.

That is a big problem.

You've admitted many times that DC is extremely inconsistent with itself, to the point that this site has a very specialized list of scaling rules for it. Consistency across the board matters above all else, and scaling solely off durability feats is throwing that out of the window. AP feats and durability showings should be painting the picture together, especially since the writers themselves don't treat AP and durability the way this site does.

More than that, if you rely solely on durability, it's a lot harder to see that the two, three, five, even ten feats pointing to one tier are likely to pale in comparison to the dozens of others that point to a much lower and less absurd one. Which, while I'm on that subject...

Zark2099 said:
Batman's maybe 9-A feats:
Click to expand...
Even if all of these are to yield 9-A results (and looking at them, I don't think they will), that's six showings out of...

Yeah, 86 striking feats in total that are canon to the Post-Crisis continuity.
 
I mean if you want to count individual punches, you can? Having 6 feats is enough to establish a baseline if the verse logic and context of feats support it.

Hulk and co. aren't busting up Solar Systems in every appearance they are in, but there is a more definite implication they reside in the cosmic level by the level of their feats.
 
Zark2099 said:
I mean if you want to count individual punches, you can? Having 6 feats is enough to establish a baseline if the verse logic and context of feats support it.
Hulk and co. aren't busting up Solar Systems in every appearance they are in, but there is a more definite implication they reside in the cosmic level by the level of their feats.
Click to expand...
I'm not saying we account for every individual feat, or you'll be having to decide whether or not he's 10-A. But it needs to be understood that when a character has close to a hundred feats in one area, there can easily be more than one outlier in that pile. It's a matter of consistency; one feat out of ten that's much higher or comically lower than the rest is considered an outlier. Multiply both numbers by ten or so, and that's the situation you have with someone like Post-Crisis Batman who has more comic book appearances than there are days in a year.

It's also a matter of writing conventions. Some of DC's writers are particular about which characters they like more than others and what they think should be a certain character's upper limits. One or two (or three or four) writers with that kind of favoritism shouldn't be enough to outweigh the concensus of dozens of other people who work to establish the characters.
 
1) Okay. I have tried to be as informative as I can regarding the move, to lessen the community's stress, and have also fixed so the profile page editing for regular members will be turned off and all the revision threads put on pause, so the staff can focus completely on the moving process, but in combination with the current global pandemic, lockdown, and economic depression, I realise that it is a lot to deal with at once. I am trying to help as best as I can though.

2) No problem. Xulrev is trying to handle The Dark Tower revision project, and seems to have it under control.

3) Some of the Marvel and DC comics fans are likely among the most extremely upgrade-hungry in the wiki, and are as such extremely hard to deal with en masse, especially if they get staff support, and start to level lots of accusations my way if I don't constantly accommodate them, and praise their pet franchises as the bestest and strongest ever in fiction, regardless that it isn't factually correct, and that the writing nowadays barely even qualifies as storytelling rather than pure propaganda.

We have had an around 1700 post long discussion that tries to upgrade Thor (Marvel Comics) to 1-A based entirely on conjecture, speculation, and incoherent storytelling, in a completely uncompromising manner for example.

As such, I don't think that it is realistic to downgrade Batman. At least he has feats of that scale. You saw the thread above that tried to upgrade an at best 8-C character to 4-B for example.

The leader of the trolls that have harrassed us for 3 years, also told me that he started his campaign largely because we didn't give all of the Marvel characters completely exaggerated ratings.
 
Jeez, there is a story I've missed here lol.

Regardless, I'd be fine with keeping Booster where he is now, but I do think we should revamp his profile a bit. It's currently very barren, and doesn't have many scans to support its current ratings. Perhaps include the feats of him punching through a steel robot and walls and such to justify his AP, and uhh, give the dude some sort of speed rating, though I dunno what that would be,
 
Antvasima said:
1) Okay. I have tried to be as informative as I can regarding the move, to lessen the community's stress, and have also fixed so the profile page editing for regular members will be turned off and all the revision threads put on pause, so the staff can focus completely on the moving process, but in combination with the current global pandemic, lockdown, and economic depression, I realise that it is a lot to deal with at once. I am trying to help as best as I can though.
Click to expand...
I realize that. I'm not criticizing anyone for being overwhelmed by the current situation. My point is more that, because of how overwhelming everything is, the place needs as much help as it can get. And, for my own reasons, I feel like trying to do so.

2) No problem. Xulrev is trying to handle The Dark Tower revision project, and seems to have it under control.
He ought to be fine without me, then. I can attest to the fact that he's extremely knowledgeable on the verse and its characters, and he's much more reasonable than most I've seen. I'm sure he can handle it.

3) Some of the Marvel and DC comics fans are likely among the most extremely upgrade-hungry in the wiki, and are as such extremely hard to deal with en masse, especially if they get staff support, and start to level lots of accusations my way if I don't constantly accommodate them, and praise their pet franchises as the bestest and strongest ever in fiction, regardless that it isn't factually correct. We have had an around 1700 post long discussion that tries to upgrade Thor (Marvel Comics) to 1-A based entirely on conjecture, speculation, and incoherent storytelling, in a completely uncompromising manner for example. As such, I don't think that it is realistic to downgrade Batman. At least he has feats of that scale. You saw the thread above that tried to upgrade an 8-C character to 4-B for example.
Believe me, I'm aware. But if there's one thing I've learned, it's that trying to please everyone and cater to their wants over what evidence should demand is not going to benefit this place in the long run. When it comes to debating and indexing, the quantity of people who share a belief doesn't mean anything if all of those shared opinions are contradicted by hard facts and evidence that they have no means of arguing against. Are people unreasonable? All the time. I run into debaters like that every day I show up anywhere. But that doesn't mean they should be allowed to have any power if they can't back up the things they say.

You see right here in this very thread, nobody's arguing for 4-B Booster Gold now that the original arguments have been dissected properly. Blind support in one direction can be overwhelming, but if there's evidence to do so, it can be dealt with accordingly.

EDIT: As for the troll group? I believe there's a saying that goes "don't feed the trolls". If the leader of the group has admitted to starting up his little campaign over something so petty, it was probably bound to happen anyway. We shouldn't be letting that affect our decision-making.
 
Kingo the Sixth said:
Jeez, there is a story I've missed here lol.
Regardless, I'd be fine with keeping Booster where he is now, but I do think we should revamp his profile a bit. It's currently very barren, and doesn't have many scans to support its current ratings. Perhaps include the feats of him punching through a steel robot and walls and such to justify his AP, and uhh, give the dude some sort of speed rating, though I dunno what that would be,
Click to expand...
I agree with giving him some kind of speed rating. I'm sure he has some sort of feats of his own out there that can be used.

The issue is that, while I'm not terribly familiar with his showings, I'm pretty sure Booster Gold is a character who jumps from having trouble with higher-end street tiers to keeping pace with Superman-level opponents. So scaling his speed is probably going to be problematic.
 
1) Thank you. I appreciate it. Should I return your administrator position immediately?

2) Okay. That is good.

3) The problem is that our 3 most knowledgeable experts regarding the verses (PrinceOfTheMorning, Sandman31, and ClassicNESfan) are all either entirely missing from the wiki, or have had to significantly reduce their activity here, for personal reasons, and Matthew doesn't have the stamina to deal with groups of unreasonable members to nearly the same degree as previously, which leaves myself to try to at least maintain some reasonable degree of reliability for our profiles, and I am extremely overworked and stressed out already, which causes me to sometimes turn too testy when doing so.
 
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