Bleach - Yhwach 2-A Almighty Range Revision Thread.

[Maitreya12]

The purpose of this CRT is to firmly establish whether or not the almighty qualifies for the 2-A range rating that it currently possesses.

I suggest that before any big arguments break out in this thread that the people who are positing either side of the argument take a moment to gather their thoughts into a more formal, cohesive and organized post where they lay out their stances clearly and then we can go from there. This is so to hopefully not clutter this thread too much as I have a feeling this is gonna be a big and probably controversial topic at hand.

With that being said…let’s hope to god this thread doesn’t devolve into toxicity and let’s begin our discussion about the Quincy king…

 

[Deceived3596]

Following.

Will explain why he should later.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Following.

Will debunk why he should not after Deceived explains why he should later

 

[Deagonx]

The purpose of this CRT is to firmly establish whether or not the almighty qualifies for the 2-A rating that it currently possesses.

Well, currently it's Low 2-C via environmental destruction, but there was another discussion about whether Yhwach's range should be multiversal through his Almighty ability. All indications are that he is only able to use his ability to affect things within his immediate sphere of influence (for instances, he does not appear to be able to just "decide" a future where some guy in another dimension suddenly experiences a heart attack.)

Deceived pointed out that Yhwach claimed to have crushed all Bankai in the future, thus implying he can influence things in other realms or far away from him (such as the Bankai that existed elsewhere). However, we saw no indication of this occurring in the story, and when he destroys Ichigo's Bankai he does so physically, so there's no real indication he can just remotely destroy Bankai with the Almighty.

The subject of whether or not the possibilities Almighty refers to are best interpreted as simultaneous co-existing timelines remains to be seen, what I have seen suggests there isn't good evidence for this, so for now I am a "disagree."

And to whom it may concern, I have thread-banned Ped2018 given that both his antics in the earlier thread and his first comment in this thread seem to indicate that he is only making comments to troll, not to meaningfully contribute to the discussion.

 

[The_Emperor4th]

Following.

for the spectators seat.

 

[Small_Ophion]

Following cause I started this mess

 

[Deagonx]

Also, given the propensity for Big 3 anime CRTs to spiral out of control and clog up so badly that staff have a hard time getting involved, I am going to be moderating this thread somewhat strictly. Please refrain from unproductive comments, trolling, jokes, et cetera. This isn't a general discussion thread.

 

[Excellence616]

2-C via environmental destruction

Low 2-C actually.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

I hope to Jesus this thread does devolve into toxicity

 

[Malekith]

and when he destroys Ichigo's Bankai he does so physically, so there's no real indication he can just remotely destroy Bankai with the Almighty.

By physically you mean in the same space as him correct? Because he doesn't destroy it in the middle of his fight, but when he finishes using it

Deceived pointed out that Yhwach claimed to have crushed all Bankai in the future, thus implying he can influence things in other realms or far away from him (such as the Bankai that existed elsewhere). However, we saw no indication of this occurring in the story

And there was no evidence that this didn't happen, why would Yhwach lie to a totally defeated Ichigo? This is going against the logic of the character

 

[Purgy]

Well, currently it's 2-C via environmental destruction, but there was another discussion about whether Yhwach's range should be multiversal through his Almighty ability. All indications are that he is only able to use his ability to affect things within his immediate sphere of influence (for instances, he does not appear to be able to just "decide" a future where some guy in another dimension suddenly experiences a heart attack.)

Deceived pointed out that Yhwach claimed to have crushed all Bankai in the future, thus implying he can influence things in other realms or far away from him (such as the Bankai that existed elsewhere). However, we saw no indication of this occurring in the story, and when he destroys Ichigo's Bankai he does so physically, so there's no real indication he can just remotely destroy Bankai with the Almighty.

Yhwach breaks numerous Zanpakuto without being in contact with them, 1, 2, 3.

As for Yhwach's claim that he has already broken every Bankai in the future, what reason is there to not believe this? Does Yhwach have some reason to be lying here or are you claiming that he doesn't even understand how his own ability works?

 

[Deagonx]

By physically you mean in the same space as him correct? Because he doesn't destroy it in the middle of his fight, but when he finishes using it

Yhwach breaks numerous Zanpakuto without being in contact with them, 1, 2, 3.

I'm just establishing that Yhwachs ability to influence the future is limited to his immediate surroundings (the area that he can affect normally), not the entire universe. He also indicates this directly, saying he can intervene with futures reflected on his eyes. He can't affect something he cannot see, or at the very least, I haven't seen any indication of that. Not that he must physically touch it (though he did with Ichigo's)

And there was no evidence that this didn't happen, why would Yhwach lie to a totally defeated Ichigo? This is going against the logic of the character

As for Yhwach's claim that he has already broken every Bankai in the future, what reason is there to not believe this? Does Yhwach have some reason to be lying here or are you claiming that he doesn't even understand how his own ability works?

There is a reason not to believe it, though. The first is that it contradicts the mechanics of the ability as established by Yhwach himself, and that we never saw indications that other people's Bankais had been destroyed outside of those who actually fought with Yhwach and had them destroyed in the battle. We should not given a character multiversal range with that low quality of evidence.

This theory also seems to create a plot hole. If he can destroy Bankai at will across the entire universe with ease, why does anyone ever show up to a fight with Yhwach with an intact Bankai? The most logical application of this power is that he would be able to destroy the Bankai of all of his enemies without any possibility of resistance, and yet, we only see it happen in the middle of fights.

We must also consider the logical extension of this. If he can influence the world so easily across such vast distances, in such a considerable manner, this surely isn't limited to Bankai, but do we have any indications that Yhwach just gibbed someone in another dimension somehow? I don't know of any such instance, he just appears to participate in face to face battles. This seems wildly risky and unnecessary if he can kill from a distance, and if he can't, what exactly allows him to destroy Bankai from a distance but not other people?

 

[Excellence616]

I'm just establishing that Yhwach's ability to influence the future is limited to his immediate surroundings (the area that he can affect normally), not the entire universe. He also indicates this directly, saying he can intervene with futures reflected on his eyes. He can't affect something he cannot see, or at the very least, I haven't seen any indication of that. Not that he must physically touch it (though he did with Ichigo's)

But that wouldn't affect his range as he could destroy something within his range of sight in another future timeline.

 

[Deagonx]

But that wouldn't affect his range as he could destroy something within his range of sight in another future timeline.

You mean, for instance, if he is going to be 1000 miles away next week, he could affect it 1000 miles away due to that being within his future? I don't see an indication that he could instantiate that ahead of time. We could say that he chooses the future which results in him destroying it there a week from now, but then that would shift the claim from "can destroy all Bankai across the universe remotely" to "can decide a future where he eventually destroys all Bankai due to eventually encountering all of them and destroying them in person" which would still limit his range considerably.

 

[Malekith]

he cannot see, or at the very least, I haven't seen any indication of that

He can see all futures, including he saw the future of his own death in the form of dreams.

Not that he must physically touch it (though he did with Ichigo's)

Again he never destroyed ichigo's bankai physically i think you meant to use another word instead of physically

 

[Deagonx]

He can see all futures, including he saw the future of his own death in the form of dreams.

This isn't really a response to what I said though? That future of his own death was shown to be what was literally happening in front of him, not something far away.

Again he never destroyed ichigo's bankai physically i think you meant to use another word instead of physically

I mean to say that he did so in-person within a range of influence that is normal for the setting, not across the distance of a universe remotely.

 

[KingNanaya]

I mean to say that he did so in-person within a range of influence that is normal for the setting, not across the distance of a universe remotely.

Would it make sense if he saw every possible timeline and could only effect the things near him? As in the range of what he can see is multiversal+, but the range of his actual attacks aren't? Because that's what I always assumed it was

 

[Excellence616]

Would it make sense if he saw every possible timeline and could only effect the things near him? As in the range of what he can see is multiversal+, but the range of his actual attacks aren't? Because that's what I always assumed it was

Exactly what i was trying to explain. He can sense things in possible futures but what he can do after sensing them are limited to his ranges of sight.
Similar to your AP greater than your durability or striking strength.

 

[KingNanaya]

Exactly what i was trying to explain.

Ape together strong

 

[Deagonx]

Would it make sense if he saw every possible timeline and could only effect the things near him? As in the range of what he can see is multiversal+, but the range of his actual attacks aren't? Because that's what I always assumed it was

Exactly what i was trying to explain.

That doesn't appear to be the case. For instance, the one time we are given an "inside look" at what his visions of the future looks like, it's from his POV of his own eyes which is also reflected in his description of his own power, he says that his power is no different from Ichigo's in that Ichigo that affect the single moment in front of him, but through Almighty he can influence the entirety of Fate reflected in his own eyes. So his view of the future seems to be from his own perspective, not an omniscience of every event occurring throughout the universe.

Almighty users have also expressed being surprised multiple times, like when Yhwach said he didn't expect to see Aizen in the Soul Society and also here

 

[Malekith]

This isn't really a response to what I said though? That future of his own death was shown to be what was literally happening in front of him, not something far away.

In fact, this future was shown when he was in the palace of the king of souls, and it only happened when he went to the SS. Why do you think Yhwach would lie to Ichigo and Renji, besides it wasn't disputed by Aizen himself that the bankais were destroyed

Would it make sense if he saw every possible timeline and could only effect the things near him? As in the range of what he can see is multiversal+, but the range of his actual attacks aren't? Because that's what I always assumed it was

Exactly, if he can see he can affect. This is literally your ability to "See" and then alter that future.

 

[Fixxed]

I still agree with 2A rating

It say the future is like the sand, and change the future is just like jump to other sand or future

It mean the future is already exist, not just a possible future that will exist

 

[Deagonx]

In fact, this future was shown when he was in the palace of the king of souls, and it only happened when he went to the SS.

Right, but I am saying that we are shown that this vision was from the POV of his own eyes, he can't just see everything that happens everywhere.

Why do you think Yhwach would lie to Ichigo and Renji, besides it wasn't disputed by Aizen himself that the bankais were destroyed

Not sure he was lying, he could have meant it in a different way than we are interpreting, but I think that aspect is less important than the limitations he is shown to have and the various logical errors this interpretation creates, which you haven't really engaged with yet.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Aizen has SK part. It's unknown if yhwach can even see him in future. Also Aizen already put yhwach under KS way before he even had almighty. Yhwach not knowing Aizen is not an Anti feat.

 

[Malekith]

Right, but I am saying that we are shown that this vision was from the POV of his own eyes, he can't just see everything that happens everywhere.


Not sure he was lying, he could have meant it in a different way than we are interpreting, but I think that aspect is less important than the limitations he is shown to have and the various logical errors this interpretation creates, which you haven't really engaged with yet.

I understood his main argument to be that he does not affect those futures he cannot see, and he cannot see what is outside his presence. This is what I understood from your arguments.

 

[Excellence616]

Yhwach said he didn't expect to see Aizen in the Soul Society

As for Aizen, we discovered that he can block The Almighty.

 

[Malekith]

I think you are misinterpreting the phrase of not expecting Aizen there, he is referring to Aizen in that position of defending Soul Society, not literally seeing Aizen

 

[PrinceofPein]

Can you guys like wait for Deceive actually post what he claims since if the timelines do not exist physically, the 2-A rating goes

 

[Malekith]

Can you guys like wait for Deceive actually post what he claims since if the timelines do not exist physically, the 2-A rating goes

You can expect to refute it as you said, I don't see a problem clarifying some points

 

[Purgy]

I'm just establishing that Yhwachs ability to influence the future is limited to his immediate surroundings (the area that he can affect normally), not the entire universe. He also indicates this directly, saying he can intervene with futures reflected on his eyes. He can't affect something he cannot see, or at the very least, I haven't seen any indication of that. Not that he must physically touch it (though he did with Ichigo's)

Yhwach's ability to influence the future goes in hand with his ability to see the future, they're literally the same ability, and Yhwach's Almighty has already been stated to see and know all that would occur, would be a bit odd if this "all" didn't at least account for the numerous dimensions he's aware of.

Also, it's already been shown that his Almighty extends to other dimensions and it's range is far greater than his literal line of sight as he knew Ichigo's Bankai would be restored by Orihime and that he'd come to fight again even though Ichigo and Orihime were within the Soul King Palace and Yhwach was within Soul Society, separate dimensions.

Not only that, but Yhwach even foresaw his own death in the Soul Society while he himself was resting in the Soul King Palace, again, proving The Almighty has never been limited to just his immediate surroundings or literal eyesight.

I think a large portion of your misunderstanding stems from you taking Yhwach's "vision" and his statements of "seeing with my eyes" as literal and amounting it to things he can see in front of him but it's nowhere near that simple, Yhwach's eyes show him everything even things from other dimensions as proven above.

There is a reason not to believe it, though. The first is that it contradicts the mechanics of the ability as established by Yhwach himself, and that we never saw indications that other people's Bankais had been destroyed outside of those who actually fought with Yhwach and had them destroyed in the battle. We should not given a character multiversal range with that low quality of evidence.

What mechanics are being contradicted?

 

[Deagonx]

Aizen has SK part. It's unknown if yhwach can even see him in future. Also Aizen already put yhwach under KS way before he even had almighty.

As for Aizen, we discovered that he can block The Almighty.

This is more of an ad-hoc justification for it, but that doesn't fit the context: Yhwach encounters Aizen in the Soul Society -- contrary to his expectations -- and it's treated as nothing more than a casual surprise that accompanies someone being somewhere you didn't expect them to be. If it were the case that the only reason Yhwach didn't have foreknowledge of it via Almighty was due to Aizen interfering with his ability, this would have an important implications that don't seem to be accurate:

1) Yhwach would be realizing in that moment that Aizen represents a concrete blindspot to an otherwise omniscient ability, a realization that seems far more dire than how it's treated in that moment and:

2) Yhwach seemed surprised at the realization that Aizen could affect him

I think you are misinterpreting the phrase of not expecting Aizen there, he is referring to Aizen in that position of defending Soul Society, not literally seeing Aizen

The basic fact remains the same, if we are purporting that Almighty gives Yhwach omniscience (which it is specifically stated to not do) then any event that strays from his expectations is problematic. He quite literally should not be capable of surprise.

I mean, this is even directly stated in the manga.

 

[Deagonx]

would be a bit odd if this "all" didn't at least account for the numerous dimensions he's aware of.

Okay, but we literally know this is not the case, so that isn't odd.

Also, it's already been shown that his Almighty extends to other dimensions and it's range is far greater than his literal line of sight as he knew Ichigo's Bankai would be restored by Orihime and that he'd come to fight again even though Ichigo and Orihime were within the Soul King Palace and Yhwach was within Soul Society, separate dimensions.

That doesn't rebut my point, because he is now currently standing in front of Ichigo, witnessing both that Ichigo is fighting him again and that his Bankai is restored, so that is easily accomplished by just being aware of his own personal future. Moreover, if he can destroy all Bankai in the future and foresaw the coming of Ichigo with his repair Bankai, why was he not able to destroy it again? This is the same Bankai that killed him, mind you.

Not only that, but Yhwach even foresaw his own death in the Soul Society while he himself was resting in the Soul King Palace, again, proving The Almighty has never been limited to just his immediate surroundings or literal eyesight.

I think a large portion of your misunderstanding stems from you taking Yhwach's "vision" and his statements of "seeing with my eyes" as literal and amounting it to things he can see in front of him but it's nowhere near that simple, Yhwach's eyes show him everything even things from other dimensions as proven above.

I think you've misunderstood my argument. I'm not saying he can only see the future of the area he is physically within, I am saying his perception of the future is limited to what his own eyes see and will see. So him having a vision of the death that he later witnessed is fine, that's not what I'm arguing against.

 

[Deagonx]

Also, please try to avoid redundant arguments, we didn't need three comments of the same point one after another. If you see that someone already made the argument, just like that comment.

 

[Malekith]

I think you've misunderstood my argument. I'm not saying he can only see the future of the area he is physically within, I am saying his perception of the future is limited to what his own eyes see and will see. So him having a vision of the death that he later witnessed is fine, that's not what I'm arguing against

But he can see all futures

 

[Deagonx]

@Duedate8898 Do you have any input to offer here?

Also: @LephyrTheRevanchist @DarkGrath @Damage3245 @KingTempest @Theglassman12 @Firestorm808

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Sigh a lot of Yhwach’s 2-A stuff comes from the raws. So I’ll try and snag that shit in my spare time but I just got on vacation bruh and y’all already doing this . Worst case scenario I’ll tackle this subject down the line in the future if I disagree with the conclusions here, so don’t feel pressed to wait for me.

 

[KingTempest]

Please don't call me to a tier 2 Bleach thread again,

Thank you,
KT

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

It’s for hax not AP so that’s sumn

 

[Georredannea15]

Sigh a lot of Yhwach’s 2-A stuff comes from the raws. So I’ll try and snag that shit in my spare time but I just got on vacation bruh and y’all already doing this . Worst case scenario I’ll tackle this subject down the line in the future if I disagree with the conclusions here, so don’t feel pressed to wait for me.

Be relax and enjoy your vacation. Many people are already here.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Be relax and enjoy your vacation. Many people are already here.

Ik but I’m the one who made the og upgrade thread cuz I can translate the raws. I will enjoy it tho lol