Bleach Soul Physiology,mind manipulation and absorption reistance.

[Sasukesolos]

The memory manip originally works on Orihime prior to her becoming spiritually aware (stronger soul). After Rukia is taken back to SS, no one remembers her besides Ichigo who didn’t have the memory device used on him, the only person Ichigo thinks can remember is Uryu (the one person he knows is spiritually aware), Orihime isn’t affected my the memory manip with the only difference from the first instance is her spiritually aware, Ichigo associates Orihime remembering with her spiritual awareness.

Combine the implications of chapter 58 with the scans in the OP and it becomes blatantly obvious why it “only works on kishi bodies”. The moment someone dies and their soul exits a body, the konpaku automatically becomes stronger as evidenced by it being spiritually aware when it wasn’t previously ergo a reishi body is unaffected by the Kikanshinki due to the strength of their soul just like spiritually aware humans are unaffected.

Reviewing.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

The point in that comparison wasn’t reliant on the otsutsuki being physical/ spiritual beings. That really doesn’t matter its more so reliant on the statement of “said ability can’t work on them” similar to how you’ve interpreted the Kikanshinki device.

which apparently, is enough to substantiate some kind of resistance.

when you say “physical mind” are you referring to the mind within a physical body? vise versa regarding the spiritual mind? If so what makes the physical mind inferior?

Unconventional resistance refers to resistance by other means, factors that makes the hax/ ability ineffective. I can just as easily say “not some death gods who designed a tool to work on the same people they protect because they designed it to be”.

At this point I am just gonna ignore you. You are just making shit up.

 

[Sasukesolos]

At this point I am just gonna ignore you. You are just making shit up.

Feeling’s definitely mutual we can just call it there. almost forgot how pointless this was….

 

[ImmortalDread]

I am still in the same stance as @Sasukesolos, to reply to this:

I'm making an occams razor arg appealing to the simplest solution. I'm asking u to provide a rebuttal to that.

There is no strict obligation for a person to provide a rebuttal to Occam's razor argument. It is a tool to aid in reasoning, not an absolute mandate.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

I am still in the same stance as @Sasukesolos, to reply to this:

There is no strict obligation for a person to provide a rebuttal to Occam's razor argument. It is a tool to aid in reasoning, not an absolute mandate.

The memory manip originally works on Orihime prior to her becoming spiritually aware (stronger soul). After Rukia is taken back to SS, no one remembers her besides Ichigo who didn’t have the memory device used on him, the only person Ichigo thinks can remember is Uryu (the one person he knows is spiritually aware), Orihime isn’t affected my the memory manip with the only difference from the first instance is her spiritually aware, Ichigo associates Orihime remembering with her spiritual awareness.

Combine the implications of chapter 58 with the scans in the OP and it becomes blatantly obvious why it “only works on kishi bodies”. The moment someone dies and their soul exits a body, the konpaku automatically becomes stronger as evidenced by it being spiritually aware when it wasn’t previously ergo a reishi body is unaffected by the Kikanshinki due to the strength of their soul just like spiritually aware humans are unaffected.

^Your take on my post?

 

[Reio35]

I never made the positive claim of resistance…… I’m asking what supports this claim? Why do you believe the op saying the device in question doesn’t work on spiritual bodies therefore inherently means spiritual bodies can’t be affected by memory manipulation.

Nothing presented shows why it doesn’t work. assuming it’s solely do to resistance is completely arbitrary.

that’s like saying the otsutsuki should all have resistance to mind manipulation, empathetic manipulation because Ada’s love charm is stated not to affect them.

Kisuke used it knock out 5 security officers and as you can see him,rukia and tessai are all unaffected. Why? Because they are spiritually aware or have reishi bodies.

Iv seen worse worse arguments like naruto and sasuke getting resistance to TSO by virtue of having six paths chakra.


Or sasuke having resistance to IT because he has a rinnegan.

 

[Arcker123]

I am still in the same stance as @Sasukesolos, to reply to this:

There is no strict obligation for a person to provide a rebuttal to Occam's razor argument. It is a tool to aid in reasoning, not an absolute mandate.

When I got the notification that you responded to me, I thought this was gonna be one of the worst things I would ever read, and naturally my prediction was correct .

Broski actually saying u don't have to respond to an opposing argument in a debate.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

I know it’s crazy to think that a Reio take could be correct but … he actually is in this situation.

Kisuke used it knock out 5 security officers and as you can see him,rukia and tessai are all unaffected. Why? Because they are spiritually aware or have reishi bodies.

Iv seen worse worse arguments like naruto and sasuke getting resistance to TSO by virtue of having six paths chakra.


Or sasuke having resistance to IT because he has a rinnegan.

To add on to this, all of them are in gigai made of kishi which function like human bodies so the whole “it only works on kishi” doesn’t even hold up since it clearly isn’t working on the spiritually aware beings made of kishi.

 

[ImmortalDread]

No, that's not what I meant. I specifically said that he doesn't have to provide a rebuttal to the Occam's razor argument, not the "opposing argument." There's a distinction here, and please refrain from using passive aggressiveness in your responses.

If you can't do it, you will be reported to RvR. Either engage respectfully or get reported.

 

[Arcker123]

No, that's not what I meant. I specifically said that he doesn't have to provide a rebuttal to the Occam's razor argument, not the "opposing argument." There's a distinction here, and please refrain from using passive aggressiveness in your responses.

This is just a worthless response. If u refuse to engage with an argument u just concede. No one cares about this dodging.

If you can't do it, you will be reported to RvR. Either engage respectfully or get reported.

Calm it down, I just said your argument, or lack thereof rather, is bad.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I have no clue what you are talking about here. All I am saying here is that you are not required to give rebuttal, or you don't need to necessarily agree with Occam's Razor. Typically and in normal cases you should provide a reason (which he did) for believing otherwise, but it is not a requirement.

As I said; It is a tool to aid in reasoning, not an absolute mandate.

Also

Calm it down, I just said your argument, or lack thereof rather, is bad.

Really did not sound when you said this:

When I got the notification that you responded to me, I thought this was gonna be one of the worst things I would ever read, and naturally my prediction was correct.

But whatever.

I am calm, I just appreciate you being respectful in chat. If you can't behave and have productive and rational discussion, you will be reported.

 

[Sasukesolos]

I know it’s crazy to think that a Reio take could be correct but … he actually is in this situation.

To add on to this, all of them are in gigai made of kishi which function like human bodies so the whole “it only works on kishi” doesn’t even hold up since it clearly isn’t working on the spiritually aware beings made of kishi.

It’s not my concern who presented the arguments but instead how it’s presented. The interpretations you guys have here are not “crazy” or bad I just disagree because they can be interpreted differently.

the panel does show them all in a Gigai body, made of kishi yet still not being affected. It makes more sense that they designed a device that can only affect a specific group of people. So in the event they need to use the device. It won’t backfire on themselves, the users.

The argument “ it only works on kishi” isn’t my interpretation.

The device is designed no written to affect the humans of the living world. that’s what it’s suppose to do. Not that it can’t be used to affect them because it would be impossible, do to thier physiology which attributes to resistance.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

It’s not my concern who presented the arguments but instead how it’s presented. The interpretations you guys have here are not “crazy” or bad I just disagree because they can be interpreted differently.

the panel does show them all in a Gigai body, made of kishi yet still not being affected. It makes more sense that they designed a device that can only affect a specific group of people. So in the event they need to use the device. It won’t backfire on themselves, the users.

The argument “ it only works on kishi” isn’t my interpretation.

The device is designed no written to affect the humans of the living world. that’s what it’s suppose to do. Not that it can’t be used to affect them because it would be impossible, do to thier physiology which attributes to resistance.

And that falls apart when I have already shown a human able to resist despite being affected prior with the only difference between then and now being their spiritual awareness/strength of their soul. Being a human isn’t the limiting factor of the Kikanshinki, having a stronger soul is. You are trying to impose a limit that objectively doesn’t exist.

 

[AppleLord]

I'm making an occams razor arg appealing to the simplest solution. I'm asking u to provide a rebuttal to that.

That's not how Occam razor works buddy. Get a PhD on it first, if you can anyway.

 

[Tatsumi504]

And that falls apart when I have already shown a human able to resist despite being affected prior with the only difference between then and now being their spiritual awareness/strength of their soul. Being a human isn’t the limiting factor of the Kikanshinki, having a stronger soul is. You are trying to impose a limit that objectively doesn’t exist.

Except that the Rukia matter has nothing to do with the device? People simply forgot her, because she returned to soul society, her existence was erased that's what the scan says.
There's no correlation made between that and the device.

Furthermore the scan in the OP says it's a device explicitly made to be used on bodies made of kishi and thus can't work on reishi bodies and Yoruichi implies Kisuke can make one that works on reishi bodies. This all points to a limitation of the device not a resistance.

If you can find a correlation between the Rukia matter and the device the best you'll get from it is limited resistance to memory & sleep manipulation that works through biological means, any of these abilities with metaphysical properties will still work on them.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Except that the Rukia matter has nothing to do with the device? People simply forgot her, because she returned to soul society, her existence was erased that's what the scan says.
There's no correlation made between that and the device.

Furthermore the scan in the OP says it's a device explicitly made to be used on bodies made of kishi and thus can't work on reishi bodies and Yoruichi implies Kisuke can make one that works on reishi bodies. This all points to a limitation of the device not a resistance.

Kisuke used it knock out 5 security officers and as you can see him,rukia and tessai are all unaffected. Why? Because they are spiritually aware or have reishi bodies.

Here Rukia doesn't have her soul reapers powers she is turned into a normal soul and need physical body to exists in real world she also has a body and we can clearly see her mind not affected by that ability.

Whatever you people opinion saying just Contradicts with plot and Narrative.

If you can find a correlation between the Rukia matter and the device the best you'll get from it is limited resistance to memory & sleep manipulation that works through biological means, any of these abilities with metaphysical properties will still work on them.

This CRT is arguing for a Unconventional Resistance not solid Resistance so it shouldn't be limited.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Except that the Rukia matter has nothing to do with the device? People simply forgot her, because she returned to soul society, her existence was erased that's what the scan says.
There's no correlation made between that and the device.

Holy shit … what a bizarre and frankly stupid take.

Going to another dimension doesn’t magically erase one’s existence from everyone’s memories in Bleach and to assume so is dumb as hell. Why would we believe that to be the case when it’s already well been established that Shinigami have access to standard equipment that alters someone’s memories?

And two, if her leaving the dimension is somehow responsible for everyone magically losing their memories, the fact that people remember her gives them all resistance to memory manip anyway.

Furthermore the scan in the OP says it's a device explicitly made to be used on bodies made of kishi and thus can't work on reishi bodies and Yoruichi implies Kisuke can make one that works on reishi bodies. This all points to a limitation of the device not a resistance.

… and I showed that humans can resist it via having higher reiryoku … the same thing that sets normal humans apart from souls.

If you can find a correlation between the Rukia matter and the device the best you'll get from it is limited resistance to memory & sleep manipulation that works through biological means, any of these abilities with metaphysical properties will still work on them.

They are both memory manip that comes from Shinigami, that’s the correlation. Rukia literally explains that Shinigami can alter memories with the Kikanshinki so when a bunch of people have false memories in a situation involving Shinigami, why wouldn’t the basic assumption be the sole thing they have shown that messes with memories? If it isn’t the Kikanshinki, you explain why everyone forgetting Rukia is due to her “going to SS” when every other time people come and go from the dimension, people in every world retain their memories of them?

Also 1, the OP was only arguing for Unconventional Resistance not a flat one, that shit isn’t limited. 2, I’m the one arguing for a standard resistance rather than unconventional or limited because I’ve already explained why it isn’t limited to kishi beings and why it fails against reishi ones.

 

[Sasukesolos]

And that falls apart when I have already shown a human able to resist despite being affected prior with the only difference between then and now being their spiritual awareness/strength of their soul. Being a human isn’t the limiting factor of the Kikanshinki, having a stronger soul is. You are trying to impose a limit that objectively doesn’t exist.

If you’re referring to orihime she actually never forgets her memory, the event that rukia wanted to erase with the kikanshink. That could just be a feat for orihime. Meaning she just happens to have resistance doesn’t scale to characters stronger than her.

Except that the Rukia matter has nothing to do with the device? People simply forgot her, because she returned to soul society, her existence was erased that's what the scan says.
There's no correlation made between that and the device.

Furthermore the scan in the OP says it's a device explicitly made to be used on bodies made of kishi and thus can't work on reishi bodies and Yoruichi implies Kisuke can make one that works on reishi bodies. This all points to a limitation of the device not a resistance.

If you can find a correlation between the Rukia matter and the device the best you'll get from it is limited resistance to memory & sleep manipulation that works through biological means, any of these abilities with metaphysical properties will still work on them.

I actually agree with this interpretation. especially, when you examine the conversation between yoruichi & kisuke. Not only does yoruichi bring up the device to be used on a spiritual body in the first place. which actually invalidates the interpretation that it would be impossible because of said physiology, having higher reiryoku, or stronger soul. She than adds to kisuke’s rebuttal implying that he could just make a device to alter the targets mind.

note; kisuke’s rebuttal is saying what’s in the op link “it would only work on humans of the living world”

I also agree that what the soul society did to make everyone forget about rukia was done completely offscreen/ panel. It could vary well be a biological application rather then a mental power we have no clue.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

That's not how Occam razor works buddy. Get a PhD on it first, if you can anyway.

I'm going to ask you not to say this again.

As for the OP. I'm leaning towards agreeing with the soul physiology addition but I'm neutral on the hollow addition for now at least for now.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I'm going to ask you not to say this again.

As for the OP. I'm leaning towards agreeing with the soul physiology addition but I'm neutral on the hollow addition for now at least for now.

If you don't mind, please check Arcker's behavior here.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

If you don't mind, please check Arcker's behavior here.

@Arcker123

I ask that you tone it down with the "worthless response" stuff.

When I got the notification that you responded to me, I thought this was gonna be one of the worst things I would ever read, and naturally my prediction was correct .

This is just a worthless response. If u refuse to engage with an argument u just concede. No one cares about this dodging.

These aren't needed and if you just don't fine the responses address your claim then don't bother with making comments like these.

I'll just drop a general warning to everyone who plans on starting anything, it's not that serious. Just state your arguments and be done with it.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Here Rukia doesn't have her soul reapers powers she is turned into a normal soul and need physical body to exists in real world she also has a body and we can clearly see her mind not affected by that ability.

Whatever you people opinion saying just Contradicts with plot and Narrative.

This CRT is arguing for a Unconventional Resistance not solid Resistance so it shouldn't be limited.

I'd make the argument that the gigai doesn't affect the soul within which is why spiritually aware people are unaffected but as you know my bleach knowledge is in bits and pieces.

Not entirely.

I'm saying it isn't unconventional but limited. Sleep and memory manipulation that works by targeting the body or brain won't work but anything targeting the metaphysical mind would work

 

[Tatsumi504]

Holy shit … what a bizarre and frankly stupid take.

Going to another dimension doesn’t magically erase one’s existence from everyone’s memories in Bleach and to assume so is dumb as hell. Why would we believe that to be the case when it’s already well been established that Shinigami have access to standard equipment that alters someone’s memories?

And two, if her leaving the dimension is somehow responsible for everyone magically losing their memories, the fact that people remember her gives them all resistance to memory manip anyway.

… and I showed that humans can resist it via having higher reiryoku … the same thing that sets normal humans apart from souls.

They are both memory manip that comes from Shinigami, that’s the correlation. Rukia literally explains that Shinigami can alter memories with the Kikanshinki so when a bunch of people have false memories in a situation involving Shinigami, why wouldn’t the basic assumption be the sole thing they have shown that messes with memories? If it isn’t the Kikanshinki, you explain why everyone forgetting Rukia is due to her “going to SS” when every other time people come and go from the dimension, people in every world retain their memories of them?

Also 1, the OP was only arguing for Unconventional Resistance not a flat one, that shit isn’t limited. 2, I’m the one arguing for a standard resistance rather than unconventional or limited because I’ve already explained why it isn’t limited to kishi beings and why it fails against reishi ones.

That's what the scan says. I'm only working off of what evidence is presented. Ichigo has seen the device before but says everyone lost their memory of her because she returned to SS not because Renji and Byakuya erased them after taking her away, furthermore the device is said to implant new memories not just erase them however, everyone's memory has been erased not changed.

Only humans that managed to remember her. This CRT is trying to give all shinigami resistance to it.

That isn't what you said. You were saying it means spiritually aware people can resist it and while that may be a fact, the scans presented show it only targets the physical body in other words, the biological mind (brain). As I recall, the soul and mind in bleach are the same or something. This would only give a resistance to memory and sleep manipulation that target biological minds hence why I said "limited resistance".

I am not making the positive claim here so I'm not obligated to provide evidence.

"Unconventional", "limited" go ahead and slap whatever word you want infront of it, at the end of the day we're basically saying the same thing. Yoruichi pointed out the device only works on bodies of kishi, that is the matter you need to tackle.
Since you're personally arguing for resistance then I disagree with you. It's already pointed out that it only targets the physical body. Blame the novel not me as without it you would've easily gotten what you wanted

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I'd make the argument that the gigai doesn't affect the soul within which is why spiritually aware people are unaffected but as you know my bleach knowledge is in bits and pieces.

If you are going to make an argument like this then you will have burden of proving this because it's nowhere stated Gigai protects soul from external cause. Extraordinary claims needs extordinary evidence.

Also Rukia Gigai is used convert Rukia into human more or less so it's even more reason that should have worked on her.

I'm saying it isn't unconventional but limited. Sleep and memory manipulation that works by targeting the body or brain won't work but anything targeting the metaphysical mind would work

It is Unconventional not limited. If you actually read the scans you can see Physical bodies getting their memories erased but that's not the case for Spiritual Bodies.

Also Orihime after gaining access to her powers was unaffected by memory wipe if I am correct which shows one who can utilise their Powers in Bleach are un affected by this memory wipe and sleep manipulation. Also sleep manipulation Resistance is already in the profile for similar reason. Characters one who has Spiritually aware of soul and soul reapers and other Invisibile things can resists the Memory Erasure.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

As for the OP. I'm leaning towards agreeing with the soul physiology addition

Yeah there are multiple times it's shown characters who has Spiritual Awareness wouldn't be affected by me sleep and memory manipulation. So Unconventional Resistance should work

but I'm neutral on the hollow addition for now at least for now.

Btw Regarding hollow addition that looks like some Purification Technique than absorption Resistance. No one Resisting any absorption.

It's just Purifying the Poison in the hollows before Absorbing.

 

[Tatsumi504]

If you are going to make an argument like this then you will have burden of proving this because it's nowhere stated Gigai protects soul from external cause. Extraordinary claims needs extordinary evidence.

Also Rukia Gigai is used convert Rukia into human more or less so it's even more reason that should have worked on her.

I was speaking hypothetically. I'm not making any extraordinary claims. You seem to have misunderstood what I said, I'm saying that it makes no sense for what is effectively a soul to be affected by what only targets the body. The gigai is merely used for interaction with the people from the world of the living.

I remember them being able to enter and detach from the gigai freely.

It is Unconventional not limited. If you actually read the scans you can see Physical bodies getting their memories erased but that's not the case for Spiritual Bodies.

Unconventional, limited anyone you feel like saying it is you could as well use plain ol' resistance however, it should be noted in the description that it only affects the physical being as Yoruichi and Kisuke's conversation mentioned.

Also Orihime after gaining access to her powers was unaffected by memory wipe if I am correct which shows one who can utilise their Powers in Bleach are un affected by this memory wipe and sleep manipulation. Also sleep manipulation Resistance is already in the profile for similar reason. Characters one who has Spiritually aware of soul and soul reapers and other Invisibile things can resists the Memory Erasure.

If you’re referring to orihime she actually never forgets her memory, the event that rukia wanted to erase with the kikanshink. That could just be a feat for orihime. Meaning she just happens to have resistance doesn’t scale to characters stronger than her.

Apparently she was never affected at all so it might just be a feat for orihime.
If the reasoning for it is the same then it should be changed to either unconventional or limited and have the description updated to point out the mechanics.

In all of this there's one fact that's unchangeable and that's Yoruichi and Kisuke's convo saying the device only works on bodies of kishi not reishi. This puts a limitation on the ability.
One thing we always recognize in mind stuff is the existence of a biological one (brain) and metaphysical one (mind) and right now, current evidence points to it only targeting the biological one.
The mind is inside the soul in bleach hence spiritually aware people are able to access the memories there– this is what all the evidence points to

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I was speaking hypothetically. I'm not making any extraordinary claims. You seem to have misunderstood what I said, I'm saying that it makes no sense for what is effectively a soul to be affected by what only targets the body. The gigai is merely used for interaction with the people from the world of the living.

I remember them being able to enter and detach from the gigai freely.

Unconventional, limited anyone you feel like saying it is you could as well use plain ol' resistance however, it should be noted in the description that it only affects the physical being as Yoruichi and Kisuke's conversation mentioned.


Apparently she was never affected at all so it might just be a feat for orihime.
If the reasoning for it is the same then it should be changed to either unconventional or limited and have the description updated to point out the mechanics.

In all of this there's one fact that's unchangeable and that's Yoruichi and Kisuke's convo saying the device only works on bodies of kishi not reishi. This puts a limitation on the ability.
One thing we always recognize in mind stuff is the existence of a biological one (brain) and metaphysical one (mind) and right now, current evidence points to it only targeting the biological one.
The mind is inside the soul in bleach hence spiritually aware people are able to access the memories there– this is what all the evidence points to

Read this chapter it's not just Orihime. Ichigo human friend Tatsuki also unaffected by that thanks to Awakening her Spiritual Awareness.

Bleach Chapter 37 | TCB Scans

tcbscans.com

Also it's just funny how everyone Ignoring the fact Ichigo friends were unaffected by sleep manipulation when Real Karakura Town and Fake Karakura Town was swapped places.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Read this chapter it's not just Orihime. Ichigo human friend Tatsuki also unaffected by that thanks to Awakening her Spiritual Awareness.

Bleach Chapter 37 | TCB Scans

tcbscans.com

Also it's just funny how everyone Ignoring the fact Ichigo friends were unaffected by sleep manipulation when Real Karakura Town and Fake Karakura Town was swapped places.

Nobody is ignoring it. The device only affects the physical body hence it makes sense for those who are spiritually aware to not be affected or recover from it as the spiritual reigns over the physical. I'll get to reading the chapter

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Nobody is ignoring it. The device only affects the physical body hence it makes sense for those who are spiritually aware to not be affected or recover from it as the spiritual reigns over the physical. I'll get to reading the chapter

Why would affecting physical body wouldn't affect a soul if there is no Unconventional Resistance to Memory manipulation? Ichigo friends got affected when they didn't had Spiritual Awareness but once they got it they got Resistance to Sleep manipulation and memory manipulation. Which clearly backs up for Unconventional Resistance.

Again we are discussing about Unconventional Resistance not straight up Resistance.

 

[Guacamolefletcher]

Soul Physiology (low tier) Unconventional Reistance to sleep and memory manipulation Kikanshinki doesn't work on reishi matter bodies

That’s not resistance to sleep manipulation… that’s a limitation of the technique

it’s like a mind hax only works on people with red hair, and I don’t have red hair, I don’t resist it via memory and sleep manipulation resistance….

 

[Tatsumi504]

Why would affecting physical body wouldn't affect a soul if there is no Unconventional Resistance to Memory manipulation?

Bro at this point this is gonna become circular so let's discuss on discord.

Affecting the physical body wouldn't affect the metaphysical mind itself. If you want to give them unconventional resistance for that, it will only apply to humans not Shinigami as the OP is proposing. Shinigami are souls so to even affect them you need NPI and by the time you get to NPI for the mind, it's no longer the physical mind but the metaphysical one so it's common sense that it won't affect them. Indexing it is redundant

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Bro at this point this is gonna become circular so let's discuss on discord.

Affecting the physical body wouldn't affect the metaphysical mind itself. If you want to give them unconventional resistance for that, it will only apply to humans not Shinigami as the OP is proposing. Shinigami are souls so to even affect them you need NPI and by the time you get to NPI for the mind, it's no longer the physical mind but the metaphysical one so it's common sense that it won't affect them. Indexing it is redundant

Now I get what you mean.

Oh then we can add it to Quincies and Fullbringer Physiology. They are still humans.

 

[ImmortalDread]

It is like saying "This hax only affects body"

Random guy who only has soul won't get out of nowhere resistance. Its weakness/limitation to the hax. It does not need to be assumed, it needs to be proven.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

If you’re referring to orihime she actually never forgets her memory, the event that rukia wanted to erase with the kikanshink. That could just be a feat for orihime. Meaning she just happens to have resistance doesn’t scale to characters stronger than her.

Yes she does. It is used on her after the Acidwire incident. It is, quite literally, the first scan linked in the OP and my original post explaining why spiritual awareness = resistance.

What happened = her brother became an evil spirit and tried to kill both her and her best friend until her crush comes flying in to save her.

What Orihime remembers = Yakuza broke into her place to explode the wall

… are you seriously telling me Rukia’s Kikanshinki didn’t **** with her memories?

That's what the scan says. I'm only working off of what evidence is presented. Ichigo has seen the device before but says everyone lost their memory of her because she returned to SS not because Renji and Byakuya erased them after taking her away,

That most certainly is not what the scan says. Ichigo isn’t saying that this is what literally happens just because someone goes back to the soul society, he is talking about Shinigami erasing themselves to leave no evidence behind. Rukia “going back to SS” is just what she tells him right before she leaves with Renji and Byakuya aka she is leaving and never coming back, gone, not seen again blah blah blah.

furthermore the device is said to implant new memories not just erase them however, everyone's memory has been erased not changed.

Wrong again. Ichigo goes back to school right after Rukia dips and her seat is taken by another student despite schools having a fixed seating arrangement, something that no one besides Ichigo and Orihime find weird ie their memories have clearly been tampered with.

Only humans that managed to remember her. This CRT is trying to give all shinigami resistance to it.

That isn't what you said. You were saying it means spiritually aware people can resist it and while that may be a fact, the scans presented show it only targets the physical body in other words, the biological mind (brain). As I recall, the soul and mind in bleach are the same or something. This would only give a resistance to memory and sleep manipulation that target biological minds hence why I said "limited resistance".

Yes, it is what I said. I would know, I’m the one saying it. If it is said to only works on humans and then fails to work on humans the moment they are spiritually aware, then being spiritually aware allows you to resist the memory and sleep manip, just like how Ichigo’s friends also resist the sleep manip during FKT. I really don’t see what is so difficult about 1+1=2.

I am not making the positive claim here so I'm not obligated to provide evidence.

You definitely are when your stance is that they have some other, completely unexplained, never mentioned before or after method that they used to erase memories in this instance and not the already well established technology that is standard equipment for Shinigami.

"Unconventional", "limited" go ahead and slap whatever word you want infront of it, at the end of the day we're basically saying the same thing. Yoruichi pointed out the device only works on bodies of kishi, that is the matter you need to tackle.

I literally already have. You are just being obtuse.

Since you're personally arguing for resistance then I disagree with you. It's already pointed out that it only targets the physical body. Blame the novel not me as without it you would've easily gotten what you wanted

The novel doesn’t matter as it doesn’t contradict what I’m saying or the Rukia situation. Being spiritually aware aka a sufficient level of spirit energy, let’s one resist memory and sleep manip. This is an objective fact with over half a dozen examples of it.

There is no physical body targeting aspect to the hax as it target memories which are stored in the soul. Much like everything else in Bleach, it is all soul hax.

Again we are discussing about Unconventional Resistance not straight up Resistance.

It very much is straight up resistance. Having a certain level of spiritual energy let’s people ignore it with no issue.

That’s not resistance to sleep manipulation… that’s a limitation of the technique

it’s like a mind hax only works on people with red hair, and I don’t have red hair, I don’t resist it via memory and sleep manipulation resistance….

Except that in this case, as soon as a redhead gained reiryoku, they resisted the hax. It is a resistance.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Now I get what you mean.

Oh then we can add it to Quincies and Fullbringer Physiology. They are still humans.

That works, ask Reio to update the OP

That most certainly is not what the scan says.

It most certainly is what it said, I'm basically quoting it verbatim

Yes, it is what I said. I would know, I’m the one saying it. If it is said to only works on humans and then fails to work on humans the moment they are spiritually aware, then being spiritually aware allows you to resist the memory and sleep manip, just like how Ichigo’s friends also resist the sleep manip during FKT. I really don’t see what is so difficult about 1+1=2.

Once again, this isn't what you said and dropping that point completely, why should it carry over to shinigami

You definitely are when your stance is that they have some other, completely unexplained, never mentioned before or after method that they used to erase memories in this instance and not the already well established technology that is standard equipment for Shinigami.

No I don't. I never made any claim, I'm just offering a separate interpretation of the scans just like you've been doing.

I literally already have. You are just being obtuse.

You haven't.

The novel doesn’t matter as it doesn’t contradict what I’m saying or the Rukia situation. Being spiritually aware aka a sufficient level of spirit energy, let’s one resist memory and sleep manip. This is an objective fact with over half a dozen examples of it.

There is no physical body targeting aspect to the hax as it target memories which are stored in the soul. Much like everything else in Bleach, it is all soul hax.

The novel does matter, after all it's being used to scale them and index abilities. Same novel also has given a limitation to the device. Nothing you do or say is overturning that point.

This is unconventional resistance to sleep and memory manipulation that deals with the physical body and would only apply to spiritually aware humans like the Full Bringers, Quinces, Shinigami and Hollows have no business having it.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

It most certainly is what it said, I'm basically quoting it verbatim

You are taking it hyper literally is what you’re doing. Ichigo wasn’t conscious for Rukia leaving, he was never told people get their memories erased or anything, he doesn’t know how it happened.

Once again, this isn't what you said and dropping that point completely, why should it carry over to shinigami

Yes it is, you’re just lacking in regards to deductive reasoning or don’t know English.

If having enough reiryoku to see spirits grants resistance to memory and sleep manip (as I’ve proven with Orihime), then every spiritual race would scale to having this resistance as they all have enough reiryoku to see spirits.

No I don't. I never made any claim, I'm just offering a separate interpretation of the scans just like you've been doing.

Good god, the Damage strat. Wait, no. That’s an insult to Damage because he at least provides reasoning. Why would you come into a thread and “offer a separate interpretation” that has nothing backing it up.

You haven't.

Like I said, obtuse … or illiterate, that is seeming more and more likely.

The novel does matter, after all it's being used to scale them and index abilities. Same novel also has given a limitation to the device. Nothing you do or say is overturning that point.

Sigh … not that it literally doesn’t matter but that it doesn’t contradict my argument hence bringing it up constantly doesn’t change anything. It’s the equivalent of me saying X can run 100 mph and you keep saying their max swim speed is 20 mph. Both can be true because neither contradicts the other.

This is unconventional resistance to sleep and memory manipulation that deals with the physical body and would only apply to spiritually aware humans like the Full Bringers, Quinces, Shinigami and Hollows have no business having it.

How does it only apply to spiritually aware humans when the very thing that you already agree gives them said resistance is something shared by every spiritual race in the setting?

 

[LordGriffin1000]

You are taking it hyper literally is what you’re doing. Ichigo wasn’t conscious for Rukia leaving, he was never told people get their memories erased or anything, he doesn’t know how it happened.

Yes it is, you’re just lacking in regards to deductive reasoning or don’t know English.

If having enough reiryoku to see spirits grants resistance to memory and sleep manip (as I’ve proven with Orihime), then every spiritual race would scale to having this resistance as they all have enough reiryoku to see spirits.

Good god, the Damage strat. Wait, no. That’s an insult to Damage because he at least provides reasoning. Why would you come into a thread and “offer a separate interpretation” that has nothing backing it up.

Like I said, obtuse … or illiterate, that is seeming more and more likely.

Sigh … not that it literally doesn’t matter but that it doesn’t contradict my argument hence bringing it up constantly doesn’t change anything. It’s the equivalent of me saying X can run 100 mph and you keep saying their max swim speed is 20 mph. Both can be true because neither contradicts the other.

How does it only apply to spiritually aware humans when the very thing that you already agree gives them said resistance is something shared by every spiritual race in the setting?

Your comments are coming off needlessly insulting. I ask that you tone it down please.

You've both have already stated your claims, there is no reason to continue this back and forth as it's clear neither of you are going to convince the other.

 

[Sasukesolos]

Yes she does. It is used on her after the Acidwire incident. It is, quite literally, the first scan linked in the OP and my original post explaining why spiritual awareness = resistance.

What happened = her

---

brother became an evil spirit and tried to kill both her and her best friend until her crush comes flying in to save her.

What Orihime remembers = Yakuza broke into her place to explode the wall

… are you seriously telling me Rukia’s Kikanshinki didn’t **** with her memories?

---

After the event you are referring to she clearly says “ I haven’t forgotten a singe detail”
It’s more so that she doubted her memory because she wanted to forget what she saw. I’m not saying the device didn’t affect her…… I actually have no idea if I’m being honest what I do know is it didn’t erase her memory which is what the device is designed to do.

 

[Duedate8898]

Shinigami physiology( low tier souls)- Sleep Manipulation and memory manipulation with Kikanshinki a device given to all soul reapers which they used to put a town of 100,000+ humans to sleep and erase their memory.

Chapter 2-5,Cfyow 2 chapter 10

Works but i do think you shouldn't be putting the potency for the power that high. Seeing as the entire thing was treated as a large scale operation and required many soul reapers to pull off in the first place, we shouldn't assume the potency of the memory and sleep manipulation of the standard single shinigami to be able to work on such a large scale.

Soul Physiology (low tier) Unconventional Reistance to sleep and memory manipulation Kikanshinki doesn't work on reishi matter bodies

You could go either way with this one since it seems more like a flaw of Kikanshinki here cause its intentions is to work on living people over souls having a natural resistance to the power. For now, I disagree personally but if others are cool with it I'm fine with it going by.

Hollow Physiology(low tier) power absorption reistance,qunciy medallions can't steal hollow powers because it's poison to them. Absorption reistance qunicy must first decompose hollow power before absorbing it.

Not really resistance here, cause the quincy can take the power, they'll just die if they choose to.

 

[Reio35]

Works but i do think you shouldn't be putting the potency for the power that high. Seeing as the entire thing was treated as a large scale operation and required many soul reapers to pull off in the first place, we shouldn't assume the potency of the memory and sleep manipulation of the standard single shinigami to be able to work on such a large scale.

Im not arguing for potency i just used that as an example to show that all soul reapers can use this.

You could go either way with this one since it seems more like a flaw of Kikanshinki here cause its intentions is to work on living people over souls having a natural resistance to the power. For now, I disagree personally but if others are cool with it I'm fine with it going by.

Okay

Not really resistance here, cause the quincy can take the power, they'll just die if they choose to.

I mean both eburn and qulige tried stealing ichigo's bankai and they couldn't take it all. So hollow reiastu would also have to Grant resistance to power stealing