Bleach Revisions Part 3: Post-Timeskip (Fullbring, TYBW and CFYOW Novel) (Part 2)

[Damage3245]

@Purgy; if he has absolutely no speed feats of his own, and no supportive statements, then shouldn't his speed rating be Unknow?

> they're chosen because they're above all the other Sternritter including Liltotto.

In terms of speed? Is there a statement for that?

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Gonna have to get another staff here, or else we're gonna be here for about 10 threads considering he hasn't agreed with jack shit yet by thread 2. This is pretty much stonewalling.

Please do

 

[Purgy]

@Purgy; if he has absolutely no speed feats of his own, and no supportive statements, then shouldn't his speed rating be Unknow?
> they're chosen because they're above all the other Sternritter including Liltotto.

In terms of speed? Is there a statement for that?

If you're going to counter my posts, please counter it in it's entirety.

No, his rating comes from being the supreme being of the verse, aka the top of the Hierarchy. I'm assuming it was accepted since it's there (I never saw the revision but I haven't been here that long so I don't know) meaning it's fine to do that and people have agreed with it.

You're like nigh impossible to convince without coming to a compromise. "The Elites aren't chosen based on their hair style or what shoes they wear, they're chosen because they're above all the other Sternritter including Liltotto", I'm curious, if you think the Elites aren't given that rank based on their fighting ability, what do you think they get it for?

No there isn't a statement, but such a thing doesn't need to be so direct to be true. As it stands I see no issue with assuming the Elites are as fast or faster than a fodder Sternritter such as Liltotto.

 

[Damage3245]

@Purgy; well, obviously it would be speculation to a degree but Lille Barro did comment that he was the first Quincy to be given a Schrift and he is Yhwach's masterpiece. So presumably his position among the elites could be guaranteed because of his ability. (And he did have quite the broken ability).

It would be pretty big speculation to say "Every Sternritter that came after Lille Barro must be inferior in speed".

 

[Purgy]

@Purgy; well, obviously it would be speculation to a degree but Lille Barro did comment that he was the first Quincy to be given a Schrift and he is Yhwach's masterpiece. So presumably his position among the elites could be guaranteed because of his ability. (And he did have quite the broken ability).
It would be pretty big speculation to say "Every Sternritter that came after Lille Barro must be inferior in speed".

I don't know what to tell you, I feel like at this point it doesn't really matter what I say.

I am going to quote this though

"I've already covered in the previous thread that this is extremely weak evidence for a non-fighting Vice Captain to be comparable in speed to the Captain Commander of the Gotei 13"

You're against Nanao being as fast as Shunsui because he's the Captain Commander? So you're literally stating here that Shunsui should be faster based on his rank? Why do you only now suddenly have an issue with somebody scaling because of rank?

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Idk why he keeps quoting "captain commander", unlike Yama who got his position for being the strongest for over 1,000 years amongst other things Shunsui got his position via being the oldest captain and best suited for said position. As far as tiering goes he's nothing special compared to the likes or Byakuya, Toshiro, and Kenpachi.

And again Shunsui words > your headcanon. So you honestly need to drop this ad nausea.

 

[Damage3245]

@Purgy; I'm stressing the rank to try and make it clear that the burden of evidence is higher by your own system of scaling around ranks.

The arguments that have been presented to me last thread are essentially, "There is no problem at all with a Vice Captain being equal in speed to the Captain Commander" and "All Captains must be higher in speed than any Vice Captain."

I want to avoid scaling on ranks altogether.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

No one ever said they are faster or equal than the captains idk were you got that.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

He doesn't understand comparable in speed just means around the same area lol.

 

[Purgy]

Btw, is Askin just wrong or am I reading a faulty translation? He says Lille is the first Quincy to be given a Schrift, but in every translation I've read (3), Lille states he's the last Quincy to be given a Schrift when talking to Shunsui.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Btw, is Askin just wrong or am I reading a faulty translation? He says Lille is the first Quincy to be given a Schrift, but in every translation I've read (3), Lille states he's the last Quincy to be given a Schrift when talking to Shunsui.

I think that the correct one is were he said "he was the first"

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

He's the 1st. Idk what translations you're reading that say last. He's the 1st and that what makes him closest to god (Yhwach) according to him.

 

[Damage3245]

@Purgy; originally it was printed as him being the last Quincy, but it was updated for the volume release to be the first Quincy. Except the Viz version didn't update itself to match so they mistakenly left him as the last Quincy.

 

[Purgy]

Weird. Dunno how a translater can mistake "First" for "Last" but I don't think I've ever been right regarding translations so what do I know.

 

[Purgy]

@Purgy; originally it was printed as him being the last Quincy, but it was updated for the volume release to be the first Quincy. Except the Viz version didn't update itself to match so they mistakenly left him as the last Quincy.

Huh. Interesting.

 

[AppleLord]

Someone forgot to add Resistance to Memory manipulation to Orihime's profile.

Her memory was erased but she remembers everything.

 

[Amlad22]

AppleLord, Aura is in no way comparable to Muken Aizen. That is the most absurd wank I have ever seen. At best you could argue her being comparable to Hikone, but the fact that Urahara's Hado 91 visibly damaged her disproves even that. The fact that her reshi was compared to Base Aizen also disproves this. Base Aizen is the only form of Aizen that even makes sense for this comparison since every other Aizen has transcendent reiatsu that can't be sensed by someone like Urahara. Everything points towards Aura being Base Aizen tier.

Saying Aura replicated Yhwach's feat is also just blatantly incorrect.

Not everyone needs a new key. Barely any time has passed and most character haven't been training, they have been recovering from the Quincy war. Zaraki wanting to fight Grimmjow for instance isn't an example of Grimmjow being multi continent level. Zaraki also wanted to fight Ichigo despite Ichigo being leagues weaker than him simply because Ichigo was interesting to Zaraki.

 

[AppleLord]

AppleLord, Aura is in no way comparable to Muken Aizen. That is the most absurd wank I have ever seen. At best you could argue her being comparable to Hikone, but the fact that Urahara's Hado 91 visibly damaged her disproves even that. The fact that her reshi was compared to Base Aizen also disproves this. Base Aizen is the only form of Aizen that even makes sense for this comparison since every other Aizen has transcendent reiatsu that can't be sensed by someone like Urahara. Everything points towards Aura being Base Aizen tier.

Saying Aura replicated Yhwach's feat is also just blatantly incorrect.

Not everyone needs a new key. Barely any time has passed and most character haven't been training, they have been recovering from the Quincy war. Zaraki wanting to fight Grimmjow for instance isn't an example of Grimmjow being multi continent level. Zaraki also wanted to fight Ichigo despite Ichigo being leagues weaker than him simply because Ichigo was interesting to Zaraki.

The novel didn't said she was comparable to base Aizen and Muken Aizen isn't even a name is a tag we use for his key. Aura's feat of creating and destroying the new palace is a feat comparable to Muken Aizen statement of been able to destroy the palace and casual Soul King Yhwach creating the palace. Aura was not damaged by Urahara's Kido you better read that fight again because she tanked the attack while holding back.

Comparing Aura to Base Aizen is like comparing Base Aizen to Dangai Ichigo since The DeathDealing worked on True Shikai Ichigo that is comparable to Dangai Ichigo and Askin himself said The DeathDealing ability would not work on someone as strong as "Shikai Urahara" and that was the whole reason he used Gift Ring on Urahara to damage his organs instead of using The DeathDealing. Grimmjow by this time is also comparable to True Shikai Ichigo since Ichigo made a "guard stance" when Grimmjow saw him again and decided to fight him. Both Grimmjow and True Shikai Ichigo were taken down by Askin.

Characters do get stronger over time you are correct because that's shounen logic.

 

[Dangai_Ichigo]

The novel didn't said she was comparable to base Aizen and Muken Aizen isn't even a name is a tag we use for his key. Aura's feat of creating and destroying the new palace is a feat comparable to Muken Aizen statement of been able to destroy the palace and casual Soul King Yhwach creating the palace. Aura was not damaged by Urahara's Kido you better read that fight again because she tanked the attack while holding back.

Comparing Aura to Base Aizen is like comparing Base Aizen to Dangai Ichigo since The DeathDealing worked on True Shikai Ichigo that is comparable to Dangai Ichigo and Askin himself said The DeathDealing ability would not work on someone as strong as "Shikai Urahara" and that was the whole reason he used Gift Ring on Urahara to damage his organs instead of using The DeathDealing. Grimmjow by this time is also comparable to True Shikai Ichigo since Ichigo made a "guard stance" when Grimmjow saw him again and decided to fight him. Both Grimmjow and True Shikai Ichigo were taken down by Askin.

Characters do get stronger over time you are correct because that's shounen logic.

There is something called inconsistency...

 

[Sekkonds.]

Aura's feat of creating and destroying the new palace is a feat comparable to Muken Aizen statement of been able to destroy the palace and casual Soul King Yhwach creating the palace

That's false interpretation,creating/destroying something as big as SKP isn't comparable at all to what aizen and juha did

Juha's feat is moving it across the distance between SKP/SS which is impressive

Aizen never stated that he would destroy it,only that he would bring it down across the same distance

Just creating/destroying SKP would be city or even country at the high end and isn't a reason to scale her to either aizen or juha

 

[Damage3245]

I think that Sekkonds makes a valid point here.

 

[Amlad22]

Exactly what I was saying Sekkonds thank you.

 

[Dangai_Ichigo]

Same thing with what I said about Yhwach except I also said he was reshaping the original Soul King Palace at the same time

 

[AppleLord]

Aura created the entire Soul King Palace in the sky in the Valley of Screams on Tokinada's request to resemble the original as Shunsui comments. She can also move the entire thing by the end of the novel and throw it to Hueco Mundo through a Garganta that Urahara opened.

 

[Zezu1995]

just give it a size and give her that feat but dont scale her thats not enough xd

 

[Naeblis495]

Apple , creating the SK palace isn't the biggest part of the feat done by yhwach .

It was moving all that shit at rel speed from the seireitei to the royal palace in a couple of seconds .

if Aura merely recreated the SK palace and then threw it in a garganta , that feat will be nowhere close to the casual yhwach feat .

 

[AppleLord]

Apple , creating the SK palace isn't the biggest part of the feat done by yhwach .

It was moving all that shit at rel speed from the seireitei to the royal palace in a couple of seconds .

if Aura merely recreated the SK palace and then threw it in a garganta , that feat will be nowhere close to the casual yhwach feat .

I think we should wait until the others translations come out, but there's gonna be another revision when the official viz translations come out. I am sure. If the novels get animated we could use the anime timeframe, right?

 

[Naeblis495]

We'll see what need to be changed when we have the neccesary elements , i'm sure of it .

We used anime timeframe for some calcs iirc , so i guess we could do it if it get animated ?

 

[USklaverei]

Damage, since you have a problem with most scales, why not create one yourself? Then the debate starts from there, otherwise it will never go forward.

 

[Damage3245]

Very well, that would probably be the best step forwards. I'll try and create one tomorrow.

 

[Zezu1995]

so can we pause this till damage is finished?

 

[Damage3245]

You can still discuss other aspects of what has been proposed.

 

[USklaverei]

Yes, at the end of the day the scale of some characters like Hikone, Kenpachi, Ichigo, Aizen and Yhwach will remain the same.

 

[Vertius_x]

In chapter 358, Omaeda says that because Baraggan reached SoiFon, no one in the Gotei 13 would be able to evade his attacks, including people like Shunsui, Yamamoto or even himself who apparently is FTL due to a feat against BG9. I understand that that statement is from the fake karakura town arc, but SoiFon is shown to train riggorously in the TYBW, so wouldn't it be logical to assume that because she is the Second Division Captain and commander-in-chief of the Onmitsukidō her speed would be something she worked to upgrade as well allowing her to keep up with other FTL characters? I'm not saying she should scale to post RG Byakuya or Renji, but shouldn't she be granted at least baseline FTL? Or maybe you could says she is Speed of Light and possibly FTL with Shunko?

Also, sorry if I'm totally wrong and speaking nonsense, I'm new to these debates and only started looking through these discussions a couple days ago. I just feel like it would be logical to assume she scales to other low end FTL characters.

 

[Damage3245]

@Vertius x; there's nothing wrong with being new. Unfortunately though you describe it as being logical there isn't really anything connecting Omaeda's statement to the Thousand Year Blood War Arc.

Shunsui is not rated as being FTL in the Arrancar Arc, and Yamamoto currently (badly) recieves his scaling from the likes of Omaeda and Nemu.

The most we can say of Sui-Feng is that she is at least as fast as she was in the Arrancar Arc and use that to build up the scaling.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

The most we can say of Sui-Feng is that she is at least as fast as she was in the Arrancar Arc and use that to build up the scaling.

This is very wrong and disonest to say she is the same as the arrancar arc unless you really think that durring the 17 months after the aizen deal she sat on her ass doing nothing

 

[Damage3245]

@TOAAPRESENCE1; why not? We already do the same for other characters.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

so we going with headcannon? even when they said that all of them were training?

 

[Damage3245]

@TOAAPRESENCE1; Saying that she is likely at least as fast as she was in the Arrancar Arc is not headcanon, it's just the most reasonable assumption.

We don't say "This character was training, therefore they must have jumped from Relativistic to FTL despite having no FTL feats".

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

So to you is more reasonable to say she sat on her ass for 17 months even when they stated they were training during that whole time? i mean yea sure if that is what you think