Bleach: Muken's Size and God Tiers

[Arc7Kuroi]

Unohana and CFYOW III support Muken being an infinite 3D space.

In the first scan (Bleach Chapter 523), Unohana states regarding Muken, "その音の如く無限に等しき広さを持つ", which translates to, "Like the sound of its name suggests (その音の如く), it holds (を持つ) an equivalent space (等しき広さ) to infinity (無限に)."

In the second scan (Bleach CFYOW III), it describes Muken as such, "漆黒の床の上に無限の闇", which translates to, "Infinite darkness (無限の闇) above (の上に) a jet black floor (漆黒の床)."

無限 means infinite/infinity and is consistently used in both sources to describe the Underground Prison. These translations are very simple and short, so I didn't feel the need to wait for the official VIZ CFYOW III. Also, in Bleach Chapter 523 VIZ translates Unohana to say "almost infinite" yet none of the characters Unohana use translate to "almost", thus I believe that translation to be incorrect. VIZ also has Kenpachi call Muken an "infinite hell", so that's 2/2 raws saying infinite and and 1/2 VIZ translations saying infinite. If VIZ translates 無限の闇 in CFYOW III to "infinite darkness" as well then that's 4/5 for it being infinite.

The weakened Soul King is able to stabilize the shaking of Muken, if shaking an infinite space requires an infinite amount of energy, halting the shaking must also require infinite energy. Thus the weakened Soul King would be High 3-A and everyone who scales above this would be at least High 3-A as well.

Who scales to or above the weakened Soul King? The obvious ones are: Mimihagi (replicated the weakened Soul King's feat), Almighty Yhwach and his later forms (far superior to Mimihagi), Merged Hollow Form True Shikai Ichigo and his later forms (damaged Mimihagi/Soul King Absorbed Yhwach), EoS Aizen (comparable to Ichigo, Yhwach was convinced Aizen was Ichigo), and the Prime Soul King (above his weakened self). These all don't require much explanation; however, I believe there are a few more who can potentially scale.

The less obvious ones are: True Shikai Ichigo (cuts down the weakened Soul King), FGT/Dangai Ichigo (Yhwach equated this power to Ichigo's True Shikai), God Aizen (damaged Dangai Ichigo, planned on killing the weakened Soul King with his power).

Here's why I believe cutting down the weakened Soul King should be a legitimate feat for Ichigo as opposed to saying the weakened Soul King has an unknown durability.

In the first scan, Kenpachi states that in a contest between beings with spiritual energy, you must overcome the opponents passive spiritual energy to do any damage to them. The weakened Soul King was quite literally in a vegetative state, meaning the weakened Soul King's passive spiritual energy is High 3-A. That would mean you need High 3-A spiritual energy to cut the weakened Soul King, much less slice him in two.

In the second scan, Yhwach implies that he didn't give Ichigo the power to kill the weakened Soul King, but rather he simply manipulated Ichigo's actions so Ichigo couldn't restrain himself. That would mean Ichigo cut the weakened Soul King with his own spiritual energy.

The third scan supports that notion. Yhwach says that regaining the "elevated power" that defeated Aizen was for the sole purpose of being able to kill the weakened Soul King. This implies that FGT/Dangai Ichigo's power is on a level that can kill the weakened Soul King and God Aizen was able to damage Dangai Ichigo.

In the fourth scan, Yhwach is attacking the Mimihagi because the Mimihagi stagnated the weakened Soul King's death. Yhwach's attack there was intended to kill this "stagnated" weakened Soul King and True Shikai Ichigo was able to block it, implying that True Shikai Ichigo is at least relative to Almighty Yhwach, further supporting High 3-A True Shikai Ichigo. While Yhwach seems pretty casual in that scan it is worth noting that Yhwach in that moment is stated to be far above the likes of the Mimihagi (and weakened Soul King by extension) meaning Yhwach wouldn't need his full power to kill the weakened Soul King, and Ichigo blocks it fairly casually as well.

 

[Zoro21043]

agreed on everything and
this could be used as more evidence for true shikai ichigo scaling to that ? maybe
in cfyow vol 1 it was said that ichibei was planning on turning ichigo into the new soul king if they didnt have yhwach
and its logical to say they would be using ichigos base as the vessel to maintain the world considering the state the soul king was in

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

@Zoro21043 entirely forgot to mention that, but yeah that's more support that True Shikai Ichigo should scale to the weakened Soul King. There's no reason to assume Ichigo would be in any other state than his base (True Shikai) whilst holding the position of Soul King.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Nice outlier.

 

[Zoro21043]

Nice outlier.

what makes it an outlier?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Nice outlier.

I fail to see how, this site currently assumes Yhwach was simply going to merge the planets, when in reality he was going to undo what the Soul King originally did. Which was split the universe. Yhwach was going to collapse the three realms, the Dangai, and the Garganta. A scale that is vastly larger than three times planet level. Now we have information on what this scale entails and a concrete feat to back it up.

You guys define outlier as follows: "An Outlier is an event or incident that is considered to be completely and irreconcilably inconsistent with a character, entity, group, or series' normal displayed level of power."

There is no inconsistency, the characters it affects are the Soul King (who scales above everything in Bleach) and Aizen/Ichigo/Yhwach (these three only scale to each other). The God Tiers of Bleach's "normal displayed level of power" is solely being comparable to the God Tiers of Bleach. They have a legitimate feat to scale to, the shaking of an infinite area. There is no outlier.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

This is irrelevant, the Soul King's splitting isn't on the scale you're suggesting and neither was Yhwach's feat. And neither Ichigo or Aizen have feats on this level too.

I am 99% sure you are ignoring context here on this thread. This argument here is just pretending that the feat isn't an outlier because "Dude who did it is stronger".

Even God Tiers in Bleach aren't portrayed on this scale.

 

[Zoro21043]

https://s1.mangabeast01.com/manga/Bleach/0627-002.png

and here is support for him collapsing the garganta and not the planets only
the site as arc said assumes he will merge the planets only which is an assumption while collapsing the garganta is stated in the manga itself

 

[BakiHanma18]

Speaking specifically to the base claim of High 3-A, is there any consistency, perhaps with Aura’s statement of everything having a spirit, meaning SK manipulates everything in the universe, or the Valley being infinite or something, or is this an outlier?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Garganta isn't that big, it doesn't support you upgrading characters to a literally infinite higher scale.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also the first statement, "その音の如く無限に等しき広さを持つ", can also be translated as "Has a size infinitely equal to that sound", which is far more vager and not speaking about literal infinite space /mass.

The line "無限に等しき広さを持つ" on its own translates to "infinitely equal size". So yeah, Infinite Size Muken is far more questionable than you're making it sound.

 

[Zoro21043]

no the garganta contains everything in bleach

https://s1.mangabeast01.com/manga/Bleach/0625-012.png

https://s1.mangabeast01.com/manga/Bleach/0625-013.png

to help u understand better here https://preview.redd.it/y0sjkke8s4s...bp&s=b02b5cf8c5ea2d7eb5d1f7192faab05050820504

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

This is irrelevant, the Soul King's splitting isn't on the scale you're suggesting and neither was Yhwach's feat. And neither Ichigo or Aizen have feats on this level too.

I am 99% sure you are ignoring context here on this thread. This argument here is just pretending that the feat isn't an outlier because "Dude who did it is stronger".

Even God Tiers in Bleach aren't portrayed on this scale.

Yhwach was stated that he was going to destroy the Garganta which houses the three realms, an unknown amount of Kogyoku, and the Dangai. The scale is vastly larger than multi-planetary. The realm of Soul Society

The weakened Soul King stabilized the shaking of an infinite 3D area. Ichigo killed that Soul King. Yhwach absorbed that Soul King. Aizen is comparable to Ichigo. Ichigo is comparable to Yhwach.

Also the first statement, "その音の如く無限に等しき広さを持つ", can also be translated as "Has a size infinitely equal to that sound", which is far more vager and not speaking about literal infinite space /mass.

"that sound" being the name of the prison, 無間, which translates to Infinite Space. Not to mention, Kenpachi calls it an infinite hell and CFYOW III says there is infinite darkness. Contextually it 100% is referring to the size.

 

[Ionliosite]

>Tier 3 Ichigo

Yeah, I'm not touching this even with a 50 meters pole, good luck with this!

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yhwach was stated that he was going to destroy the Garganta which houses the three realms, an unknown amount of Kogyoku, and the Dangai. The scale is vastly larger than multi-planetary

That's literally "Multi-planetary" tho. It "housing" three realms isn't much.

"that sound" being the name of the prison, 無間, which translates to Infinite Space.

Yeah and that's just the name. Doesn't mean anything. "Infinitely equal" doesn't mean infinite size, I'm sorry.

Also the second statement, "無限の闇" or "infinite darkness" also doesn't necessarily mean literal infinite size, it can just mean that there is only black nothingness and nothing more. It's far more poetic than literal. One could use the term "Infinite darkness" to refer to the night sky, or to the experience of being blinded, and it would technically be poetically correct. Just not literally so.

 

[AKM sama]

It is better to wait for the official translation for this stuff, it seems.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I'm not gonna agree or disagree. This is interesting to me. I'll throw my vote in when more people have picked a side.

 

[AppleLord]

I have to disagree. In the same chapter Yhwach tells Ichigo that he gave Ichigo his Reiatsu that dwelled in the sword. He controlled him through a power boost. Is not a feat for Ichigo either way.

 

[BakiHanma18]

It is better to wait for the official translation for this stuff, it seems.

^

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

That's literally "Multi-planetary" tho. It "housing" three realms isn't much.


Yeah and that's just the name. Doesn't mean anything. "Infinitely equal" doesn't mean infinite size, I'm sorry.

Also the second statement, "無限の闇" or "infinite darkness" also doesn't necessarily mean literal infinite size, it can just mean that there is only black nothingness and nothing more. It's far more poetic than literal. One could use the term "Infinite darkness" to refer to the night sky, or to the experience of being blinded, and it would technically be poetically correct. Just not literally so.

The realms aren't planetary in size.

Unohana is drawing a direct comparison to the size of the prison and what the name of the prison means. Muken means infinite space, thus Unohana is saying the prison's name is a literal description of the prison.

The fact remains Kenpachi still calls it an infinite hell and the novels refer to an infinite darkness. This isn't one quote being taken out of context, this is multiple quotes all pointing to an infinite prison.

I have to disagree. In the same chapter Yhwach tells Ichigo that he gave Ichigo his Reiatsu that dwelled in the sword. He controlled him through a power boost. Is not a feat for Ichigo either way.

I mention that Yhwach didn't give Ichigo literal power but just manipulated his actions. What about your thoughts on the forms of Ichigo that more concretely scale to Yhwach.

 

[Ionliosite]

It is better to wait for the official translation for this stuff, it seems.

Sorry to ruin your delutions, AKM, but all but one of the statements have already been translated by VIZ. Besides, why to wait when have the RAW directly? Not that I support Tier 3 Ichigo in any way, shape or form, but I don't see any reason to wait when all the evidence can perfectly be countered and/or supported already.

 

[Zoro21043]

the officials can be wrong as they say almost infinite while raws say essentially infinite
and in another case they changed atoms to dust (for aizens hado 90)
the raw should be more reliable if translated correctly

and even if we ignore the muken thing
it wont change the fact that the current ratings are flawed as it is based on merging planets which is wrong as the manga contradicts that
it should be based on the garganta
as muken isnt accepted for now we should get the garganta's size based on what is accepted currently which would be at least 4A(as soul society is accepted as 4A and garganta contains it with many other realms)

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

To further analyze Unohana's statement:

The way VIZ translates it supports that Unohana is referring to the size of Muken. However, in the actual characters Unohana says, none of them translate to "almost" and the raws only ever mention infinite. Meaning yes she's referring to size and yes she is comparing the size to infinity.

This is supported by Kenpachi calling Muken an infinite hell.

This is further supported by CFYOW III stating there exists an infinite darkness within Muken.

How many "infinites" need to be used to make things clear?

Yhwach scales above the shaking of this infinite prison. The shaking of infinite space is High 3-A. The God Tiers should be High 3-A.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The realms aren't planetary in size.

They sure as hell aren't universal like you are insinuating. The novel straight up denotes a difference between the universe and the three worlds.

Unohana is drawing a direct comparison to the size of the prison and what the name of the prison means. Muken means infinite space, thus Unohana is saying the prison's name is a literal description of the prison.

No it isn't. He is saying the name is "infinitely similar" to the sound which can mean **** all, I guess.

The fact remains Kenpachi still calls it an infinite hell and the novels refer to an infinite darkness

"Infinite hell" and "infinite darkness" aren't necessarily literal statements either. The former could be talking about neverending suffering and the later about neverending darkness, or that there is nothing but darkness. Neither quote denotes "This place is literally physically infinite in size".

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yhwach scales above the shaking of this infinite prison. The shaking of infinite space is High 3-A. The God Tiers should be High 3-A.

I hate it when people do this in CRTs, starting treating the very thing they want to pass as already established fact. You're trying to get this approved, don't act as if it's already a consensus. The prison even being infinite is being put into question, let alone the scaling.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

They sure as hell aren't universal like you are insinuating. The novel straight up denotes a difference between the universe and the three worlds.


No it isn't. He is saying the name is "infinitely similar" to the sound which can mean **** all, I guess.


"Infinite hell" and "infinite darkness" aren't necessarily literal statements either. The former could be talking about neverending suffering and the later about neverending darkness, or that there is nothing but darkness. Neither quote denotes "This place is literally physically infinite in size".

Bleach's universe isn't inherently the size of our universe, but glad we agree that the realms aren't planetary.

I addressed earlier how VIZ supports the notion that Unohana was drawing a comparison to the prisons size.

Kenpachi calls it an infinite hell immediately after Unohana brings up the size of Muken. Contextually it would only make sense that he's referring to an infinitely sized hell.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I hate it when people do this in CRTs, starting treating the very thing they want to pass as already established fact. You're trying to get this approved, don't act as if it's already a consensus. The prison even being infinite is being put into question, let alone the scaling.

Yhwach already scaled above the shaking of Muken, we just didn't have a value for it, I'm not asserting anything new.

 

[Zoro21043]

the prison is infinite and it isnt a hyperbole or anything as unohana says

as the name suggests it is essentially infinite
so the name correlates with the size is what unohana is saying

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

the prison is infinite and it isnt a hyperbole or anything as unohana says

Saying it is without evidence doesn't make it so.

as the name suggests it is essentially infinite

The "infinity" in its name isn't necessarily literal. In the case of Buddhism, where the name and concept of the 8th Prison comes from, the infinity refers to infinite sufferring, not infinite size. For example.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

To quote Dargoo Faust in another thread, the repetition of a word that can have multiple meanings doesn't necessarily means that it suddenly has only one meaning in a work of fiction, specially just because a character said it means this or that.

This isn't how words work, and the only thing that this necessarily proves is that yes, "world" is a term that can refer to a variety of things.

The logic that "if this/multiple character used this word in a sentence in a specific way once/multiple times, it must therefore hold that all subsequent uses of the word use the same definition" makes utterly no sense when we remove that logic from the context of battleboarding and try applying it to similar words that have multiple meanings. It's not how language works.

For example, I could take a series that focuses on baseball, note that more often than not the word "bat" is used to refer to a wooden tool used in the sport, and then take this logic to say that a character remarking that they "saw a bat fly out of his house" must mean that "a wooden baseball bat levitated out his front door".

Long story short, I disapprove of "proving" that a word that inherently has multiple meanings only has one given meaning in a verse because it's "used more often than not" a certain way. If you seriously want to prove that a character was using "world" to the entire universe, use context from that specific statement and not a bunch of statements that have nothing to do with it and/or are stated by completely different characters. If this is a key part for the upgrades in this CRT, I'll then say I oppose that part of the CRT specifically.

 

[AKM sama]

Matthew seems to make sense here. The statement is far too vague to be comprehended the way it is made out to be in the OP.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

VIZ supports that Unohana is talking about the size of Muken. The statement is clearly meant to be a comment on size.

The actual raws for this statement never use the word "almost" the just use the word "infinite" (「無間」とはその字の如く一分の間も無く閉ざされ その音の如く無限に等しき広さを持つ).

Immediately after Unohana draws a comparison to the size of Muken, Kenpachi calls it an infinite hell. Clearly he isn't talking about neverending suffering because there is literally nothing but empty space in Muken. The only thing vast about Muken is its size. Therefore infinite hell is most likely a reference again to its size.

The CFYOW quote is just additional support. Saying Muken houses an infinite darkness.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"almost infinitely large" is meaningless. You can't be "almost infinite", that's semantically impossible.

 

[Zoro21043]

Saying it is without evidence doesn't make it so.

"その音の如く無限に等しき広さを持つ
And as the sound of its name suggests, it has essentially infinite space."

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

That could also be translated to mean

"It has a size infinitely equal to that sound." or "It has an infinitely equal size like that sound.".

The phrase "無限に等しき広さを持つ" on its own, separate from the rest of the sentence, literally translated to "infinitely equal size".

It's not talking about literal infinite size, just similarity.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

"almost infinitely large" is meaningless. You can't be "almost infinite", that's semantically impossible.

VIZ supports that Unohana is talking about the size.

"almost infinite" is a mistranslation. "essentially infinite" or just "infinite" would be a more proper translation. Essentially as defined by Cambridge Dictionary: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/essentially

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

That could also be translated to mean

"It has a size infinitely equal to that sound." or "It has an infinitely equal size like that sound.".

The phrase "無限に等しき広さを持つ" on its own, separate from the rest of the sentence, literally translated to "infinitely equal size".

It's not talking about literal infinite size, just similarity.

That's where we combine context. She's referring to size. It can be translated as "infinite space" Kenpachi calls it an "infinite hell" contextually it is infinite.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"almost infinite" is a mistranslation. "essentially infinite" or just "infinite" would be a more proper translation. Essentially as defined by Cambridge Dictionary: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/essentially

Jesus the Dictionary you're quoting has nothing to do with this, we are talking about the Japanese text.i

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

That's where we combine context. She's referring to size. It can be translated as "infinite space" Kenpachi calls it an "infinite hell" contextually it is infinite.

I already talked about the problem with doing this. The one quote about "infinitely equal" we keep referring to isn't necessarily talking about literal infinite size, and the other two quotes are not necessarily literal either, with the later of the two "infinite darkness" being the least literal of the three.

 

[Zoro21043]

"It has a size infinitely equal to that sound." or "It has an infinitely equal size like that sound.".
the sentence sounds poorly translated the other translation i gave seemed more right but either way if u take the context

"it has a size infinitely" equal "to that sound"
it means the size is infinite as the sound of the name muken suggests
i cant see how else it can be interpreted specially when muken is the name everything makes sense