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When you mentioned Garganta and Ganju in the OP, my points on Ganju and Garganta became relevant by default.
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- #242
No, I'm not being cocky or snide. Just stating facts.
Context differs. By that logic, since it is a Bleach thread, we can discuss everything Bleach related here? No. Just the main topics that were used to upgrade and for why this thread was created.
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The context is the ******* same.
You mentioned "I don't think Ganju is credible"
I respond with "here is why Ganju is credible"
It's direct refutation of your post Jesus ****.
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That's because I'm waiting for someone to counter my refutation or seeing if people agree with me... when no one comments on it I'm left here like "did anyone read it?"
You can't just say "I see your debunk to my point but I'm not going to reply" and make me reasonably assume you gave a ****.
Instead when you saw my point you could say "I agree or I disagree/am neutral because of blah" rather than continuously accuse me of stalling.
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And again, I have repeated it already, we are not waiting for everyone on this thread to read your reply right now and come to an agreement. This is you willfully ignoring me. For the last time, assume your point is correct, and move on with your argument. People can agree/disagree with whatever they want, later when they come online and view the thread. I'm not gonna repeat this because your unwillingness to listen is clear as day here.
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I don't need everyone, I need one ******* person. All I need is one person to converse with to continue the discussion.
For the last time, when those people come online then can agree/disagree with my point whenever they want and I won't have to assume anything. Last time I assumed the 5-6 staff + Kukui were in agreement over the God Tier scaling in the first thread (ya know after everyone accepted the upgrades), some turned right back around and said naw they disagree within a matter of days. So I hope you can understand why I hesitate to assume with you guys.
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No, this isn't a 1v1 debate where you need one person to agree with you to continue. People can come later and disagree. And if you really want to converse, we will assume I agree with you. Now move on.
So you're basically saying you're not gonna move ahead without getting everybody's approval on your point.
Fine. Now again, as I said, the original topics of this thread are done. We can get staff to view and voice their opinions. Most of your new points have nothing to do with the original arguments. And they can even see your refute about Ganju. If you are unwilling to go further, I guess we are done. Although, I'll wait for Imade to respond since he said he will.
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No no no, you aren't understanding. I know people can come and disagree/agree later. I just want one person to comment on it before I move on.
**** they are. Imade is typing his response rn and I'm working on a response on the Soul King's stability. Cool your jets, sit down, and exercise some ******* patience. Act like you're proper staff.
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Yeah lets give IMade a chance to post his stuff now that we know for sure he's coming soon. I will then give a response to his stuff and maybe Arc and Haschs IF IMade doesnt already cover that. IF he doesn't, then I will give my responses to those 2 as well.
And then afterwards, staff can come to give judgements.
And then afterwards, staff can come to give judgements.
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Apart from the aggression, this is all you had to say to avoid causing the drama you just did. I'll wait for you to respond to that. But I don't appreciate the aggression when all I am doing is my job.
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I said earlier on that I would address the other points later... what I said wasn't new information. It's not passive either. I didn't know your job included attacking my character.
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Seems like this thread is losing track of what specific points need to be discussed.
Actually, would it not be easier if someone (probably AKM or Kukui) were to concisely tally what specific points relevant to this thread (the really crucial ones) need to be refuted here?
Probably by Arc7 or IMade if Kukui's side has provided all his refutations to Arc's provided arguments.
Actually, would it not be easier if someone (probably AKM or Kukui) were to concisely tally what specific points relevant to this thread (the really crucial ones) need to be refuted here?
Probably by Arc7 or IMade if Kukui's side has provided all his refutations to Arc's provided arguments.
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This ^ because it appears there is some miscommunication as to what is a main points that need addressing are. I think IMade's post should help with that tho.
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Hey I'm working on getting raws that could be monumental in determining the size of the realms, but it may take a few days (I might have to buy the Japanese versions if I can't find them else where). So, while I'm sure it's the last thing you want to hear, I'm going to have to ask y'all to be patient.
Although we have IMade's debunk and my Garganta scaling to occupy the until then, but these raws I'm acquiring may be able to settle this with extreme clarity and ease.
Although we have IMade's debunk and my Garganta scaling to occupy the until then, but these raws I'm acquiring may be able to settle this with extreme clarity and ease.
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Not to throw you under the bus, but I cannot grant permission as a non-staff member.
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As Arc7Kuroi has just stated, he cannot give permission.
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Reio asked me to post:
1. Almighty is needed to create and or manipulate the realms.
6. Anti feat of captains attacking Yhwach's spirit energy.
1. Almighty is needed to create and or manipulate the realms.
- This is in fact not true in cfyow. It is stated that Ginjo, Ichigo, and Hikone are suited to be soul king and none of them possesses the Almighty. Even the narrator himself said that Hikone is fit to be soul king. Ichibe also stated that Ichigo possesses all the qualities to be soul king. Tokinada also tells Ginjo he can become soul king and alter the world as how he sees fit. Scan 1 and 2.
- If having the Almighty was the factor of manipulating the realms, Yhwach, who also has the almighty wouldn't have gone through the trouble of absorbing the soul king.
- As soon as the soul king died we literally see realms shaking and collapsing immediately. But even I was to steelman this point it and said the realms were not completely destroyed. The very fact that Jiren and many other characters are given '''Low 2-C''' for shaking/affecting realms and not completely destroying them. This would be completely biased, as with the Soul King everything was being affected. Even in the tiering system as long you can affect a universe you scale to it.
- This is also wrong as it is shown twice that Yhwach destroying the realms with his power. We know he's doing it with power cuz we see his black spiritual energy everywhere.
- This is completely wrong it is stated by Yhwach himself, Ichibe, and Tokinada that he is basically doing the reverse of what the soul king did. Even his dead corpse which is stated to be weaker than when he was alive was said to be keeping all creation in order. Scan 1 scan 2.
- Here is the statement of him doing the reverse of the soul king did restore the world to its original form here. Yhwach also said he affecting all that has a concept of life and death.
- We know that everything within the cosmology is affected by death stated and shown by Barrgan. scan 1 scan 2. To further back this claim Ginjo states everything has a soul including inanimate objects.
- This is also wrong. It is stated by Isshin that they are separate space-times or dimensions; also shown to be separated by the Garganta which is also its own dimension. The wotl is stated by Ginjo, which has infinite time which means it is an infinite 4D, as time and space are the 4-dimensional; even VS battles stated that time is 4D. To further back this claim we know that the theory of relativity existing in bleach which time and scan are one in the same (relativity). The theory of relativity also explains the universe is expanding. For this link, all you have to do is read the first paragraph where it says the theory applies to the cosmological. Which means universe. That being said SS is also its own universe as it is said to be a timeline. So here, Tuskihsima altered a soul reapers past in another timeline. For there to be other timelines must mean Soul Society is also a timeline their by universal. As a timeline is considered universal by VSB.
6. Anti feat of captains attacking Yhwach's spirit energy.
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Okay, thank you for posting those. I will develop counters to those points as well.
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While I have a little bit of time now, I will shorten what I will counter later on right now by getting Reio's counters out of the way.
This point was not brought up by me, or brought up in the original post. Yhwach not using Reiatsu was not the issue that the original post layed out in the first place. Please re-read the arguments again.
This point was also not brought up in the original post, or me, and it has absolutely nothing to do with the downgrade in the first place. My later counter arguments in fact even fully acknowledged and agreed with the Bleach worlds being universes. This line of argumentation is pointless here.
Adding in another smaller nitpick to this too, the novel statements from CFYOW are using unofficial translations. The original post already made a point here about waiting for the official translations for Volume 3 to be released before using it in any arguments, which won't be available until the incoming months. This speaks to the relevance of these scans and their context.
But more importantly, the biggest issue with this part of the argument. What does Ichigo, Ginjo and Hikone being capable of becoming the Soul King have anything to do with what the Almighty’s feat? Like, in any way? These are 2 entirely separate feats and instances being dis-jointed together. Those 3 being Soul King candidates have to do with them becoming linchpins, aka sustaining the worlds. They would be candidates to replace the weakened version of Reio as the Soul King to keep the worlds in check. It has nothing to do with the Almighty or it’s feat of splitting the original universe as the current translations dictate and go by.
And just to add in a minor point, this whole idea about Ginjo being a potential Soul King replacement just makes things even more messy than they do solid. It’s more of an Anti-feat than it is anything beneficial. Not only does Ginjo not make any drastically big improvements in power after being killed by Ichigo at the end of the Fullbring arc, but this idea of him being able to become a Soul King would mean characters like Grimmjow and Candace are Soul King level because they fight each other by the time of CFYOW and scale to each other, as stated so on their pages right now. This is even more of an anti-feat for you guys, unless Grimmjow and Candace are Weakened Soul King level now.
As for the Yhwach point, this doesnt disprove anything either. This easily includes the viable possibility that Yhwach’s own Almighty was not as powerful as The Soul King’s Almighty, and had his Almighty upgraded when devouring Reio and acquiring all of his abilities, which would include Reio’s Almighty.
TL;DR- This part of the argument is, no offense, entirely irrelevant to the main argument of the downgrade and doesn't change anything I said. Part of this evidence uses scans from a non-canon game that has no part in the canonicity here. The evidence that IS permitted is being taken out of context, Ichigo and the others being Soul King candidates speaks to the role of the Weakened Soul King to be Lynchpins in sustaining the world, and nothing more. The Almighty’s feat has nothing to do with this and is its own separate case.
First, the case of Jiren and the rest of DBS while we’re at it. This false equivalence is a bad comparison, and not just because of the fact that DBS has actual context in support of their feats aligning well with our tiering systems standards. DBS’s Low 2-C status doesn't even come from Low 2-C destruction in the first place. It comes from characters, like Jiren, scaling above Infinite Zamasu, a character who literally becomes a living breathing space-time continuum. Which as a result, becomes the core aspect of DBS’s Low 2-C ratings from that point on to where it is now. It’s case is completely different to what's happening here with Bleach’s ratings.
And now, let me try to be as perfect and vividly clear about this continuously repeated argumentation of mentioning other verses in an effort to circumvent the counter argument as I possibly can. Mentioning other verses does not help you here, at all, and this argument needs to stop being brought up thinking it does. Putting other verses on the chopping block does nothing to help you, because those verses will just get downgraded too. Period. And that's assuming the context and events of their feats are exactly the same as what's being argued for Bleach here. Fictional verses get looked at, and revised, everyday on this site. Day in and day out. There is no “perfect” verse that escapes the boundaries and rules given by our site’s standards. Any verse here that does not follow the qualifications, and requirements, of what our tiering system details out to be the case will get the exact same treatment as what we are doing here to Bleach. Equally and unconditionally. Latching onto another verse to use in an attempt to call out a double standard, when that very verse you mention can have different context or also just very easily be wrong too, almost never does anything here.
TL;DR- I don’t have anything new really to add to this compared to what I’ve already said here more than once. The destruction of these worlds, in no way, shape or form, is immediate destruction that accurately portrays Low 2-C destruction in a single instance like our standards require. Nothing dimensionally was getting destroyed, barely any destruction happened, it was happening over an extensive timeframe, and all of the affected worlds were not even affected the same way as each other. That is as far from Low 2-C as you can get under these circumstances. Shaking / affecting the realms means absolutely nothing more than unquantifiable 4-D levels of power being at work here, which does not grant any upgrades under these circumstances. So no, “effecting a universe” does not mean you scale to it, at all. You need much more than that to be granted an upgrade of this caliber.
This is not bias, this is listing, detailing and explaining more than once about how our tiering system works, which the opposition still does not seem to fully understand enough to properly be arguing about it here. And if it still isn't clear after this response is made, then perhaps the people arguing against this should not be defending a tier that they don't know the requirements for.
First off, absolutely nowhere in this statement does Askin imply that there’s infinite Reishi. He said the things Quincy CAN DO with Reishi is infinite. This has nothing to do with the Reishi itself being infinite in amount.
Second, “infinite energy” being needed for this is also very very wrong. It’s just Askin speaking about the possibilities Quincies can do with Reishi since Quincy can manipulate it at will. Just like how someone has a lot of possibilities to choose from on something to do. They aren’t manipulating, or effecting, infinite amounts of Reishi or infinite amounts of anything. Thus, infinite energy being “required” is just entirely pulled out of nowhere here.
And finally, the “infinite” aspect in this entire statement. You can, once again, refer to my very in-depth comment on infinite XYZ from the Infinite Souls counter argument earlier:
It’s quite obviously hyperbole, since again, this is just referring to the number of ways a Quincy can use Reishi and manipulate it. Its as simple as that.
Yhwach holding back (which is unsupported headcanon anyway, he has 0 reason to be holding back against the people he considers his mortal enemies) means absolutely nothing here, because “holding back” doesnt stop the fact that the Reiatsu he unleashes on them is still Low 2-C. I made an entire explanation on this before already in my counters, read it again:
The point about “a casual use of it will never be greater than a focused attack” literally and completely doesn’t matter at this point when dealing with Tiers 3 and above. Or more specifically, 3-A, Low 2-C, and tiers above them. Why? Because now, we are dealing with tiers that involve infinite energy where things cannot be quantifiably divided like they could in tiers like 6-A or 5-B. Low 2-C power will always continually be Low 2-C, no matter how much it is divided into smaller amounts. Dividing it in half? It’s Low 2-C. Divided by hundreds? It’s Low 2-C. Divided by billions of times? Sextillion amount of times? Power used at 0.0000000000000001%? It is still Low 2-C, period. The only differing factor here is that these lower amounts of Low 2-C power are unquantifiably lower the more it is divided up. But it’s not going to be so much weaker upon division that it drops out of the tier. This is the basics to how Low 2-C works and why downscaling from Low 2-C is very much a thing on this site to cement characters scaling to the tier, even if just lower to unknown extents.
So in the case of Bleach here, where your side is still adamant on keeping the Weakened Soul King’s sustenance feat Low 2-C, this is the same thing. The Reiatsu would still be Low 2-C levels of power, no matter how much unquantifiably lower the divided pieces of Reiatsu would become. Reio’s gremlin monsters and the remnant of Yhwach’s Reiatsu would still be using Low 2-C power under this premise, they would just simply be much weaker than the total sum of Low 2-C power that Yhwach and Weakened Reio would have at once. So in order to even be in the presence of these Reiatsu pieces without so much as getting vaporized, much less be able to combat and destroy them, you would need to be Low 2-C still in order to do that. It’s as simple as that.
So this, again, returns to my earlier argument. Either characters as weak as Kazui to as strong as Byakuya become Low 2-C for being able to combat and destroy Low 2-C Reiatsu, or the Reiatsu being Low 2-C offensively is just much too inconsistent to be used at those levels. The choice here is yours.
And keep in mind, this is under the assumption that the Reiatsu would be Low 2-C in the first place, which the many points given here explains why it shouldn't.
Low 2-C power cannot be quantifiably divided like lower tiers can. At all. No matter how much the power is divided, it is still Low 2-C in every single way, just unquantifiably lower. Meaning, Yhwach was still unleashing Low 2-C reiatsu against them, making this inconsistent.
And no? They were handling the Reio gremlins incredibly easily, their strength was fodder compared to the Captains and Assistant captains. Hisagi, Ikkaku, and Yumcihka attacked them and were dwindling down the groups of them without any difficulty. Omeada was crushing through them easily too. Sui-Fung didnt receive so much as a scratch against them when activating Bankai. And Byakuya blasted away an entire wave of these creatures incredibly easily with Senbon-Zakura. The strength of the creatures were 0 threats to them, Aizen was needed to get rid of them all at once because of the vast difference in numbers against them. While stronger, Aizen being used doesnt negate the fact that these guys can go up against what your side adamantly claims is Low 2-C reiatsu and be just fine.
TL;DR- This point is irrelevant, it was dealt with at length already and nothing new was brought here to change this.
Counters for Reio’s Argument:
Points To Ignore:
Yhwach not destroying the realms with power
This point was not brought up by me, or brought up in the original post. Yhwach not using Reiatsu was not the issue that the original post layed out in the first place. Please re-read the arguments again.
World of the living and soul society not being universal
This point was also not brought up in the original post, or me, and it has absolutely nothing to do with the downgrade in the first place. My later counter arguments in fact even fully acknowledged and agreed with the Bleach worlds being universes. This line of argumentation is pointless here.
Points I Disagree With:
Almighty Being Needed to Create / Manipulate The Realms
Okay, let's get something out the way here first. Why are you using these scans for the point about Ginjo being a Soul King candidate? These scans are not even from the CFYOW novel, they come from a game, which im fairly sure is Bleach Brave Souls. A non-canon game. That already invalidates their place here, they don't have any standing in this argument at all.Adding in another smaller nitpick to this too, the novel statements from CFYOW are using unofficial translations. The original post already made a point here about waiting for the official translations for Volume 3 to be released before using it in any arguments, which won't be available until the incoming months. This speaks to the relevance of these scans and their context.
But more importantly, the biggest issue with this part of the argument. What does Ichigo, Ginjo and Hikone being capable of becoming the Soul King have anything to do with what the Almighty’s feat? Like, in any way? These are 2 entirely separate feats and instances being dis-jointed together. Those 3 being Soul King candidates have to do with them becoming linchpins, aka sustaining the worlds. They would be candidates to replace the weakened version of Reio as the Soul King to keep the worlds in check. It has nothing to do with the Almighty or it’s feat of splitting the original universe as the current translations dictate and go by.
And just to add in a minor point, this whole idea about Ginjo being a potential Soul King replacement just makes things even more messy than they do solid. It’s more of an Anti-feat than it is anything beneficial. Not only does Ginjo not make any drastically big improvements in power after being killed by Ichigo at the end of the Fullbring arc, but this idea of him being able to become a Soul King would mean characters like Grimmjow and Candace are Soul King level because they fight each other by the time of CFYOW and scale to each other, as stated so on their pages right now. This is even more of an anti-feat for you guys, unless Grimmjow and Candace are Weakened Soul King level now.
As for the Yhwach point, this doesnt disprove anything either. This easily includes the viable possibility that Yhwach’s own Almighty was not as powerful as The Soul King’s Almighty, and had his Almighty upgraded when devouring Reio and acquiring all of his abilities, which would include Reio’s Almighty.
TL;DR- This part of the argument is, no offense, entirely irrelevant to the main argument of the downgrade and doesn't change anything I said. Part of this evidence uses scans from a non-canon game that has no part in the canonicity here. The evidence that IS permitted is being taken out of context, Ichigo and the others being Soul King candidates speaks to the role of the Weakened Soul King to be Lynchpins in sustaining the world, and nothing more. The Almighty’s feat has nothing to do with this and is its own separate case.
The Destruction of The Realms Not Being Immediate (Once Again)
So not only does the opposition not seem to quite fully understand how Low 2-C and our tiering system works, but now it's time for false equivalencies to be brought up too. Before I repeat the point about how I explained and countered this part of the argument time and time again, I will address the false equivalencies and false argument that is other verses being brought in here to try and circumvent this point.First, the case of Jiren and the rest of DBS while we’re at it. This false equivalence is a bad comparison, and not just because of the fact that DBS has actual context in support of their feats aligning well with our tiering systems standards. DBS’s Low 2-C status doesn't even come from Low 2-C destruction in the first place. It comes from characters, like Jiren, scaling above Infinite Zamasu, a character who literally becomes a living breathing space-time continuum. Which as a result, becomes the core aspect of DBS’s Low 2-C ratings from that point on to where it is now. It’s case is completely different to what's happening here with Bleach’s ratings.
And now, let me try to be as perfect and vividly clear about this continuously repeated argumentation of mentioning other verses in an effort to circumvent the counter argument as I possibly can. Mentioning other verses does not help you here, at all, and this argument needs to stop being brought up thinking it does. Putting other verses on the chopping block does nothing to help you, because those verses will just get downgraded too. Period. And that's assuming the context and events of their feats are exactly the same as what's being argued for Bleach here. Fictional verses get looked at, and revised, everyday on this site. Day in and day out. There is no “perfect” verse that escapes the boundaries and rules given by our site’s standards. Any verse here that does not follow the qualifications, and requirements, of what our tiering system details out to be the case will get the exact same treatment as what we are doing here to Bleach. Equally and unconditionally. Latching onto another verse to use in an attempt to call out a double standard, when that very verse you mention can have different context or also just very easily be wrong too, almost never does anything here.
TL;DR- I don’t have anything new really to add to this compared to what I’ve already said here more than once. The destruction of these worlds, in no way, shape or form, is immediate destruction that accurately portrays Low 2-C destruction in a single instance like our standards require. Nothing dimensionally was getting destroyed, barely any destruction happened, it was happening over an extensive timeframe, and all of the affected worlds were not even affected the same way as each other. That is as far from Low 2-C as you can get under these circumstances. Shaking / affecting the realms means absolutely nothing more than unquantifiable 4-D levels of power being at work here, which does not grant any upgrades under these circumstances. So no, “effecting a universe” does not mean you scale to it, at all. You need much more than that to be granted an upgrade of this caliber.
This is not bias, this is listing, detailing and explaining more than once about how our tiering system works, which the opposition still does not seem to fully understand enough to properly be arguing about it here. And if it still isn't clear after this response is made, then perhaps the people arguing against this should not be defending a tier that they don't know the requirements for.
Yhwach Not Affecting The Cosmology Like The Soul King
The original post, and later counter arguments, already dealt with this at very big length. We know what Yhwach was desiring to do. We know he wanted to reverse what the Soul King did to the cosmology. We know what he planned to do. And thats irrelevant. Why? Because at the end of the day, again, this is not a perfect world where statements by themselves are enough to be given what's asked for here. Without any supporting feats, supportive scaling, or even supporting context, statements of what a character wants and what a character desires isn’t a solid enough argument to be given a drastic upgrade like this one. Refer to my entire response about this:Askin’s “Infinite Reishi” Statement
There’s quite a lot wrong on this statement, and this doesn’t even factor the argument I gave earlier about why we don't accept “infinite XYZ” without it being very strongly supported.First off, absolutely nowhere in this statement does Askin imply that there’s infinite Reishi. He said the things Quincy CAN DO with Reishi is infinite. This has nothing to do with the Reishi itself being infinite in amount.
Second, “infinite energy” being needed for this is also very very wrong. It’s just Askin speaking about the possibilities Quincies can do with Reishi since Quincy can manipulate it at will. Just like how someone has a lot of possibilities to choose from on something to do. They aren’t manipulating, or effecting, infinite amounts of Reishi or infinite amounts of anything. Thus, infinite energy being “required” is just entirely pulled out of nowhere here.
And finally, the “infinite” aspect in this entire statement. You can, once again, refer to my very in-depth comment on infinite XYZ from the Infinite Souls counter argument earlier:
The Infinite Souls Statement
I see we’re starting with this. Anyway, I'm opposed to this statement of infinite souls (which, as a small reminder, has not been accepted in a CRT of its own yet) due to the large number of inconsistencies surrounding it.
1st Issue: Lack of Consistency
For starter’s...the consistency of the statement itself. This is a single statement that never appears again in any later arc, which doesn’t make it as consistent as claimed to be. That makes the legitimacy of the statement questionable.
2nd Issue: Threat From The Quincies
Next obvious issue is the entire threat the Bleach Cosmology faces from the Quincies. Infinite souls existing in the verse would make it completely impossible for the Quincies to destroy the balance of souls across the worlds in the first place, as the balance would be impossible to break to begin with. The balance of souls would naturally restore itself and prevent itself from going out of whack.
3rd Issue: Shinigami Being Balancers
Going right along with the previous point is the concept of Shinigami’s being considered balancers in contrast to Quincies. They have to monitor the number of souls that are present within the Soul Society and The World of the Living at all times, and must actively take action to balance them by sending souls between the 2 worlds. Sending dead souls to live in the Soul Society, and then sending them back to the living world as living beings. The sole fact that Shinigami monitor the souls across the worlds alone speaks to the soul cycle being finite in amount as you cant track the balance of something being infinite. On top of that, them actively making sure that an equal number of souls exist between the worlds at all times further says that infinite souls isn't the case.
4th Issue: Cant Fear Your Own World
The CFYOW novel also debunks the idea of infinite souls since if there were an infinite number of souls, they wouldn't all be eaten and formed into one single Hollow. It would take an infinite amount of time to eat them all, as well as an infinite amount of time to be formed.
5th Issue: Hyperbole & Poetic Language
The biggest problem out of them all. On top of the aforementioned issues, this one is a whole can of worms itself from the very fact that the entire infinite souls statement itself seems similar to statements such as “I have infinite power?” or “I have countless means at my disposal!”, etc.
The problem with these statements is that they tend to be hyperbolic and not literal. Especially when its very existence brings conflictions and major inconsistencies that were mentioned above, problems that you can only solve by going through a number of different mental gymnastics to create possible solutions out of nowhere in order to defend this ONE statement that should be taken no more than a grain of salt at best. What should be gleaned from these statements is the fact that the individual saying them is suggesting that they have an over abundance of resources or power at their disposal and not that they literally have an infinite number of XYZ. This is EXTREMELY common in fiction, so much that its not funny, and I have several examples of similar moments to name here that aren’t accepted on this site like it's being asked here for Bleach.
1st Example: One Piece
One Piece has multiple of these moments to choose from as an example of why we dont take these statements seriously without some EXTREME backing.
Kizaru, to start us off, has a databook statement saying he can shoot infinite numbers of light bullets, from the databook we currently use to give One Piece their light speed ratings:
Blackbeard proclaims to be able to create infinite gravity, AND compress people with infinite power:
Charlotte Cracker creating infinite biscuit soldiers:
Impel Dawn’s hell being infinite in size too:
None of these examples are accepted here for One Piece.
2nd Example: Fairy Tail
Fairy Tail has an example as well. Ultear outright states she creates infinite possible futures, futures that are parallel universes, and can manipulate them at will to fire them at opponents:
But 2-A Fairy Tail isn’t on the table as you can see.
3rd Example: Naruto
Naruto offers examples to give here as well, 2 of them.
Might Guy’s databook entry on Asakujaku being one, stating to punch out opponents with an infinite number of fists:
Another Naruto example is the Juubi / Ten Tails being claimed to have near infinite chakra by Obito:
Both examples are obviously not viable here. Guy doesn't have infinite speed, or infinite hands, and near infinite chakra quite clearly refers to large reserves of chakra for the ten tails.
4th Example: Dragon Ball
Dragon Ball gives an example to add into this false trend as well. Androids 17 and 18 by the time of the Android/Cell Saga are confirmed by Trunks to possess an infinite supply of energy:
https://cdn.***************.com/file/mangap/1063/20154000/3.jpg
Neither of them at this point are considered anything higher than High 4-C, and it took new feats and scaling and a bunch of discussions to finally get 17 into the 3-A and Low 2-C range by the time of Super. Infinite energy supply just refers to their unlimited reverses of stamina.
5th Example: Soul Eater
Soul Eater is another example to turn to. Mifune has a technique that's called Infinite One Sword Style. What does the attack do? Releases only a large abundance of swords for Mifune to use instead of literally releasing infinite swords. On top of that, Mifune is only considered 8-A on here.
6th Example: Saint Seiya
Saint Seiya could also be brought up here. Sigurd in Saint Seiya Episode G Assassin has an attack where he fires "an infinite number of energy beams at the opponent", but it's obviously not taken literally. It’s just a neverending beam spam.
7th Example: Kirby
Kirby is another example to be referenced too, and I name this one in particular because of how much of a controversial matter its been here. One of Kirby’s enemies, Magolor, has had numerous threads made on this site in attempts to upgrade him, Kirby, and the verse to High 3-A using statements of “infinite power” that came up several times for him across different sources. We even acknowledge this currently on his page right now:
Multi-Solar System level (Possessed by the power of the Master Crown and is no more than a manifestation of the crown, which was portrayed above other ancient artifacts and repeatedly claimed to have "infinite power" whereas the Lor Starcutter wasn't, indicating an interpretably vast superiority over it.
And not once in the history of this wikia have we ever accepted it for Magolor, despite how much the infinite power statement has been thrown around so many times. Despite HOW BLATANT this claim is, it still means nothing here. Which is why he’s not rated as anything higher than 4-A.
I could continue to name cases of this all day, but we’d be here forever. All of this shows the point that infinite anything is taken as nothing more than a grain of salt here as it's almost never accepted because of how vague and poetic the statements are, so we give them incredible amounts of skepticism and require them to have large quantities of evidence to have any chance in getting accepted. And Bleach’s infinite soul statement gets the exact same treatment, especially due to the fact that “infinite” in this context can also very easily be referring to the fact that souls in Bleach are endlessly renewable. They are sent back and forth between the 2 worlds in a reincarnation cycle that's endless, which in that sense, is “infinite” because it's an eternal cycle. But that doesn’t mean that the souls here are literally infinite in numbers. The only time souls being renewable is an exception is when Quincies completely erradicate hollows and remove them from the cycle permanently, which was why they were a threat to the soul cycle.
TL;DR- This statement creates far more inconsistencies than it does actual consistency. It’s a one time only statement, It goes against the nature, laws and makeup of the verse, using material that this site rejects in next to every case, with countless other verses, without having a huge abundance of evidence supporting it, along with the very possible chance that it's hyperbole and using poetic language to refer to the soul cycle. Once again, this is another example of having to use many levels of mental gymnastics and going through many layers of speculation in order to give this statement any viable backing to be accepted here without simply going with what takes FAR LESS amounts of leaps in logic to make. And that is the statement is just wrong and should be outright rejected.
It’s quite obviously hyperbole, since again, this is just referring to the number of ways a Quincy can use Reishi and manipulate it. Its as simple as that.
Anti feat of captains attacking Yhwach's spirit energy
This point was, once again, already addressed by my counter arguments earlier in the thread.Yhwach holding back (which is unsupported headcanon anyway, he has 0 reason to be holding back against the people he considers his mortal enemies) means absolutely nothing here, because “holding back” doesnt stop the fact that the Reiatsu he unleashes on them is still Low 2-C. I made an entire explanation on this before already in my counters, read it again:
Offensive Reiryoku & Reiatsu & Yhwach / Reio Reiatsu Remnants
Okay, let’s get something clear here first so that everyone reading through this will be able to understand.The point about “a casual use of it will never be greater than a focused attack” literally and completely doesn’t matter at this point when dealing with Tiers 3 and above. Or more specifically, 3-A, Low 2-C, and tiers above them. Why? Because now, we are dealing with tiers that involve infinite energy where things cannot be quantifiably divided like they could in tiers like 6-A or 5-B. Low 2-C power will always continually be Low 2-C, no matter how much it is divided into smaller amounts. Dividing it in half? It’s Low 2-C. Divided by hundreds? It’s Low 2-C. Divided by billions of times? Sextillion amount of times? Power used at 0.0000000000000001%? It is still Low 2-C, period. The only differing factor here is that these lower amounts of Low 2-C power are unquantifiably lower the more it is divided up. But it’s not going to be so much weaker upon division that it drops out of the tier. This is the basics to how Low 2-C works and why downscaling from Low 2-C is very much a thing on this site to cement characters scaling to the tier, even if just lower to unknown extents.
So in the case of Bleach here, where your side is still adamant on keeping the Weakened Soul King’s sustenance feat Low 2-C, this is the same thing. The Reiatsu would still be Low 2-C levels of power, no matter how much unquantifiably lower the divided pieces of Reiatsu would become. Reio’s gremlin monsters and the remnant of Yhwach’s Reiatsu would still be using Low 2-C power under this premise, they would just simply be much weaker than the total sum of Low 2-C power that Yhwach and Weakened Reio would have at once. So in order to even be in the presence of these Reiatsu pieces without so much as getting vaporized, much less be able to combat and destroy them, you would need to be Low 2-C still in order to do that. It’s as simple as that.
So this, again, returns to my earlier argument. Either characters as weak as Kazui to as strong as Byakuya become Low 2-C for being able to combat and destroy Low 2-C Reiatsu, or the Reiatsu being Low 2-C offensively is just much too inconsistent to be used at those levels. The choice here is yours.
And keep in mind, this is under the assumption that the Reiatsu would be Low 2-C in the first place, which the many points given here explains why it shouldn't.
Low 2-C power cannot be quantifiably divided like lower tiers can. At all. No matter how much the power is divided, it is still Low 2-C in every single way, just unquantifiably lower. Meaning, Yhwach was still unleashing Low 2-C reiatsu against them, making this inconsistent.
And no? They were handling the Reio gremlins incredibly easily, their strength was fodder compared to the Captains and Assistant captains. Hisagi, Ikkaku, and Yumcihka attacked them and were dwindling down the groups of them without any difficulty. Omeada was crushing through them easily too. Sui-Fung didnt receive so much as a scratch against them when activating Bankai. And Byakuya blasted away an entire wave of these creatures incredibly easily with Senbon-Zakura. The strength of the creatures were 0 threats to them, Aizen was needed to get rid of them all at once because of the vast difference in numbers against them. While stronger, Aizen being used doesnt negate the fact that these guys can go up against what your side adamantly claims is Low 2-C reiatsu and be just fine.
TL;DR- This point is irrelevant, it was dealt with at length already and nothing new was brought here to change this.
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So if you agree the realms are universes... what’s the issue with the numerous statements that Yhwach is going to destroy them?
Are the issues the eyeball creatures and the arrow? Among issues with the stability feat?
If the only issue are these “potential anti-feats” among finding a new way to scale the WSK based on the new rules, I’ll shift to just addressing that.
I’m a bit confused here.
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Oh im sorry, I thought this issue from the original post was understandable. I'll explain it again.
Yes, the reio eyeball monsters and arrow are glaring issues, but they're minor supporting issues. The main core issue at hand with Yhwach's feat is that now he'd be lacking supporting feats and scaling to validate the statements of him destroying the worlds. Think of it like this. Lets go under the idea that the Weakened Soul King's feat is no longer quantifiable for 3-A or Low 2-C for a second, okay?
With it being unquantifiable, that makes the Weakened Soul King's tier unquantifiable because the feat no longer qualifies for 3-A or Low 2-C. Which means, Yhwach being > the Weakened Soul King and him absorbing his, Mimihagi's, and Ichigo's Quincy/Hollow powers are also unquantifiable, not 3-A or Low 2-C. Which means, Peak Yhwach by the time of the arc's conclusion doesnt get to 3-A or Low 2-C anymore with amps. Peak Yhwach's tier would be unquantifiable when going off of that.
The Reio creatures and Yhwach's Reiatsu being dealt with by non god tiers, and the arrow, are further supporting points, but the stability feat being invalidated was the original post's main core argument for downgrading Yhwach's stats.
With those factored in, the only evidence left now that would support Yhwach's statements, without any supporting feats or supporting scaling being factored in, would purely be the statements themselves.
Thats why, for Yhwach, it would come down to if whether or not statements as the only evidence would be good enough evidence for the god tiers to climb these number of tiers all at once:
- High 6-A
- 5-C
- Low 5-B
- 5-B
- 5-A
- High 5-A
- Low 4-C
- 4-C
- 4-B
- 4-A
- 3-C
- 3-B
- 3-A
- High 3-A
- Low 2-C
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I'm going to tackle the Soul King being unquantifiable last as it takes the longest to address.
The Eyeball Creatures
The Eyeball Creatures
- The only information we are directly told about these small fellas is that they are a torrent of Reio's power that escaped the seal, and presumably excess power leaking out of Yhwach from absorbing Reio and Mimihagi. We aren't told any information on how much potency of the Reio's power they hold, all we know is that they are unquantifiably weaker than the Reio's full power.
- So let's address the actual anti-feat argument: If the Reio's power was beyond 3D (Low 2-C/2-C/blah blah tier 2 power) and the eyeball creatures are a linear percentage of that power (like 1e-10% or something tiny) it would still be tier 2 power and infinitely above 3D power, yet captains who's best feats are tier 6 can cut them.
- The first issue with this is assuming that the dregs of Reio's power are a linear decrease from the Reio's original power. Regardless of if the Reio is tier 10 or tier 1, we aren't told how much power they contain. Thus the only valid form of scaling for them would be based on their own feats. Such feats include scaring some Captains and being implied to potentially consume Soifon before being crushed by Aizen. So based on what we know and what we are shown we can only claim that they are unquantifiably less than Reio's full power (as they are excess power Yhwach didn't absorb) and that they are likely capable of hurting captain level Shinigami that are far below Aizen's level. Point being you can't assert that these eyeballs are 'x' percent of the Reio's power, you can only claim they are a portion of it. And because that portions only showing is being around Lieutenant and Captain level Shinigami we can say they are at that level, and if you wanted to you could find what "percent" of the Reio's power they are based on that.
- My second issue lies in the assumption that if something is just a portion of something else it must be a linear percentage of the whole. Think of this to help you understand: imagine an infinite volume of sand stretching out in every direction forever, there's an infinite amount of sand granuals, if I grab a handful of sand from the infinite volume do I hold infinite sand? No, I can pick 1 single granual of sand from the infinite volume and that single piece is finite despite coming from an infinite source. Think of the eyeball creatures as the single piece of sand in this case, while they may come from a a nonfinite source, they can still be finite. A portion of something does not have to be a numerical percentage of the whole.
- For those two above reasons, I believe using the eyeballs as means of an anti-feat relies on an unprovable (nor supportable) assumption and the eyeballs should be judged on their own merits.
- So let's address the actual anti-feat argument: If the Reio's power was beyond 3D (Low 2-C/2-C/blah blah tier 2 power) and the eyeball creatures are a linear percentage of that power (like 1e-10% or something tiny) it would still be tier 2 power and infinitely above 3D power, yet captains who's best feats are tier 6 can cut them.
- The arrow that pierced Yhwach held the capabilities of halting his powers due to being made of the silver formed from Yhwach's own Auswahlen.
- The anti-feat arguments goes as follows: Uryu piercing Yhwach with this silver arrow is an anti-feat because Uryu isn't tiered at Yhwach's tier.
- The Still Silver arrow doesn't scale to Uryu and it never did (even back when the God Tiers were tier 5 here we didn't scale Uryu to the arrow). All of Uryu's attacks are comprised of his own reiatsu and the reishi he gathers, hence why he scales to his regular attacks; however, the Silver arrow is not composed of any reishi or any of Uryu's reiatsu. The arrow is composed from Yhwach's own Auswahlen and because of this it is it's own entity and doesn't scale to Uryu in any way.
- This analogy will help you understand: if I fire a bullet from a rifle, do I physically scale to the bullet and gun? No I don't, because the rifle is not my own power it is its own weapon, I would just be the vessel of transporting of activating said weapon (i.e pulling the trigger). Similarly, this arrow is like the rifle and ammo in my analogy and Uryu is merely the vessel for transporting said weapon.
- The arrow doesn't scale to Uryu as it isn't Uryu's own power. That same arrows only feat is piercing Yhwach, so that would mean that the Still Silver arrow scales directly to Yhwach. Claiming it as an anti-feat because it has no prior showings would be equivocal to me saying Dangai Ichigo cutting Fourth Fusion Aizen is an anti-feat for Aizen.
- The Still Silver arrow doesn't scale to Uryu and it never did (even back when the God Tiers were tier 5 here we didn't scale Uryu to the arrow). All of Uryu's attacks are comprised of his own reiatsu and the reishi he gathers, hence why he scales to his regular attacks; however, the Silver arrow is not composed of any reishi or any of Uryu's reiatsu. The arrow is composed from Yhwach's own Auswahlen and because of this it is it's own entity and doesn't scale to Uryu in any way.
- The anti-feat arguments goes as follows: Uryu piercing Yhwach with this silver arrow is an anti-feat because Uryu isn't tiered at Yhwach's tier.
- Arguing that the statements are invalid due to the tier jump being large is an argument from incredulity. This wiki has a precedence for allowing characters to climb solely based on statements, so not allowing Bleach to do the same is a bit disingenuous. That being said Bleach actually possesses a few tier 5 and tier 4/3/2 feats.
- In Memories of Nobody, Senna uses the power of the Blanks (Blanks being souls that escaped the Soul Cycle) was able to begin slamming planets together and later push them away, which has been calculated at around planetary give or take. The amount of souls Senna used would be minuscule in comparison to the souls Reio controls, as losing Blanks isn't enough to disrupt the Soul Cycle. The point being Senna was able to perform a planetary feat a negligible amount of souls (in comparison to those Reio controls). So we know from this, Weakened Reio is at least massively above planetary.
- Here's a calculation for how much joules needed to overcome the gravitational potential energy between the planets at their closest interaction (I can explain the science behind it in great detail if you'd really like).
- Here Gremmy creates outer space. To which the notion that Gremmy actually created this outer space is repeated multiple times in CFYOW II. It goes as far to see that what he imagines is turned into reality, which would mean everything you see within the outer space Gremmy is real as everything you see within is the outer space Gremmy imagined. I'm going to say this for those in the back, I am NOT saying that Gremmy's normal statistics scale to this. However, we see that an ability derived from Yhwach's own soul is capable of creating an actual galaxy among numerous stars. After Gremmy dies his schrift returns to Yhwach and it is hypothesized that Gremmy was the brain of the Soul King. So here is a tier 4/3 feat that exists within Bleach (not claiming it inherently scales to anyone that's an argument for another time, but nonetheless it is a high tier feat within the series).
- Not to mention the kanji used on the panel says literally "space of the universe or universe space", I'd still argue that that is just in reference to outer space (as irl outer space is the space of the universe), but it's interesting nonetheless that the kanji for universe are used.
- Finally a dimensional quake with it's epicenter within the Royal Palace/Soul Society causes a an earthquake of unprecedented magnitude all the way on parts of Earth in the World of the Living (the largest recorded magnitude earthquake is 9.5). Magnitude 4 earthquakes across the observable universe have been calculated around the higher end of tier 4, so an earthquake of a much higher magnitude across multiple universal spaces would logically yield a much higher value. This feat at bare minimum should be very high into tier 4 if not reaching into tier 3 (likely qualifying for "significantly affecting" if you believe the Bleach cosmos is a tier 2 construct). This all occurred because Reio was killed and could no longer stabilize Soul Society, the Soul Cycle, and potentially the rest of the cosmos. However, as soon as Reio was reinstated the shaking stopped immediately, and once Yhwach becomes the new Reio, Jugram states the world cannot exist without Yhwach's power.
- In Unmasked, Aizen's goal is stated to be: 藍染は霊王になり代わり、新しい世界を創造する。This translates to “Aizen sought to become the Soul King, to create a new sekai.” We know Aizen is aware of what Reio’s existence really means, as well as knowing the true nature of the Hogyoku from the startgives credence to Aizen being aware of what Reio can do. Aizen is the self-proclaimed second smartest guy outside of Urahara, with showings to back it up, he should be very reliable.
- Sekai can mean society, world, or universe. In this context it is likely referring to universe in the sense of Bleach's entire universe, as the Reio originally created the whole Bleach universe. Either way Aizen is saying that the power of Reio is that to create and destroy worlds/universes, and you already agree the realms are universes anyway.
- In Memories of Nobody, Senna uses the power of the Blanks (Blanks being souls that escaped the Soul Cycle) was able to begin slamming planets together and later push them away, which has been calculated at around planetary give or take. The amount of souls Senna used would be minuscule in comparison to the souls Reio controls, as losing Blanks isn't enough to disrupt the Soul Cycle. The point being Senna was able to perform a planetary feat a negligible amount of souls (in comparison to those Reio controls). So we know from this, Weakened Reio is at least massively above planetary.
- So we have a tier 5 feat that Weakened Reio would massively outscale, a tier 4/3 feat that has direct connections to Yhwach, a tier 4/3 feat that is directly caused by the Weakened Reio (might qualify for tier 2 even under the "significantly affecting" portion of tier 2 definitions), and finally a databook statement backing all this up.
- Requirement 1: From this that Reio is at least stabilizing the Soul Society and regulating the flow of souls (not keeping their numbers in check just controlling their literal flow, as we see Mayuri has to correct the numbers issue). We also have numerous scans saying that not just Soul Society but everything from the other realms, Dangai, and even the Garganta are in danger without the Soul King. So it is possible Weakened Reio stabilizes the entire cosmos, but I can still say with 100% certainty that Reio stabilizes Soul Society.
- Requirement 2: In We Do Knot Always Love You we find out that it's a vast amount of reiryoku that is needed for the Soul King to perform it's duties as the lynchpin and stabilize.
- Requirement 3: As shown in the previous section that when Reio stopped stabilizing, an extremely high magnitude earthquake rippled across all existence in Bleach. We also get several statements that everything will be gone from Yhwach, Kisuke, and many others as I'm sure you all are aware.
- Requirement 4: Here Urahara says you need reiryoku to fight and use powers as a soul, which proves that it's the power, that scales consistently to the statistics of any soul, that stabilizes.
- As you can see Reio actually does satisfy the new stabilization feat rules. Reio stops a high magnitude quake that spans across multiple universal realms with his reiryoku, reiryoku being someone's spiritual power/energy and as per Kisuke is what determines their fighting capabilites/statistics.
- Isshin states that Soul Society and World of the Living are split by a separate space-time. Giriko and CFYOW II, confirms that general relativity is canon to Bleach, further supporting the realms being space-times. When Yukio appears in front of Ginjo in CFYOW II, it confirms again that Bleach cosmology has space-time. This would make the three realms, three separate universal space-times.
- Mayuri also says this in the anime. If the tier 2 qualifications are revised and changed this rating would be subject to change based on the new qualifications for tier 3/2, but until then I’ll use our current definitions.
- As I see it we can tier the Reio one of four ways: calculating the energy required to shake multiple universal realms with a high magnitude, give him 3-A based on the complete destruction statements, give him Low 2-C since he significantly affects a universal space-time, give him 2-C because there's a high degree of evidence that the realms are their own space-times and are split by a separate space-time (meaning Reio significantly affected 2+ universal space-times).
- Method 1: I was digging around universal shakes and all I found were contentious blogs or I'd calc it myself. I think this is a bit of extreme lowball as the dimensional quake nearly shattered the boundaries of the realms that spatially and temporally separate them.
- Method 2: I think just giving 3-A falls under the same issues as method 1.
- Method 3: We do know that the entire Bleach universe is at least one big space-time and being that Reio significantly affected it with a dimensional quake that was recorded at magnitudes greater than 9.5, we also are only told that Soul King directly stabilizes Soul Society which is a universal time-space, so Low 2-C could be very valid.
- Method 4: We see multiple arguably Low 2-C structures significantly affected by Reio which would qualify for 2-C.
- As a footnote for all who weren't part of the original CRT I have compiled a large preponderance of evidence for the realms being universes in size and can drop it for any who want it, but as Kukui has said he (and everyone else) agree the realms are universes so I won't bother making this longer than it has to. I'll compile a quick scaling chain and updated justifications that reflect this post.
- Reio: Low 2-C, possibly 2-C (Stated to directly stabilize the Soul Society, his spiritual energy is used to prevent a high magnitude quake from destroying all the realms, Aizen sought to become Reio to gain the power to create a new universe) | At least Low 2-C, possibly 2-C(Should be above his vegetative state, created the current Bleach universe)
- Keys: Weakened | Prime
- Yhwach: At least Low 2-C, possibly 2-C (Stated to be stronger than Weakened Reio, tanked a Getsuga Tenshou from True Shikai Ichigo) | At least Low 2-C, possibly 2-C (Stated capable of destroying the three realms and creating something new, absorbed the power of Reio and Mimihagi, injured True Shikai Merged Hollow Ichigo) | At least Low 2-C, possibly 2-C(Stronger than before after absorbing some of Ichigo's power)
- Keys: Almighty | Reio + Mimihagi Absorbed (he doesn't need two keys for this lol he absorbs them at the same time) | Ichigo's Powers Absorbed
- Ichigo: Low 2-C, possibly 2-C (Yhwach equated this power to True Shikai Ichigo) | Low 2-C, possibly 2-C (Cut Weakened Reio in half and intercepted an attack from Almighty Yhwach intended to kill Weakened Reio, this power was called Ichigo's true power), higher with Merged Hollow Form (Cut Reio/Mimihagi Absorbed Yhwach with a Gran Rey Cero Getsuga Tenshou), higher with True Bankai (Reio/Mimihagi Absorbed Yhwach feared Ichigo's True Bankai, bisected and killed Ichigo's Powers Absorbed Yhwach twice)
- Keys: Final Getsuga Tenshou (I don't know why we treat FGT as equal to Dangai, the databooks refer to it as a separate form) | True Zanpakuto
- Aizen: At least Low 2-C, possibly 2-C(Capable of fending off Ichigo's Powers Absorbed Yhwach, who was convinced he was fighting True Bankai Ichigo instead of Aizen)
- Keys: Muken
- Mimihagi: Unknown, possibly Low 2-C or 2-C (Capable of stagnating Reio's death stabilizing the universe, blocked an attack from Almighty Yhwach)
- A quick aside, the "Low 2-C, possibly 2-C" is just my placeholder for their tiers based on the information, obviously others can comment and it might change, just think of it as "tier 3/2" if you don't inherently agree with their specific tiering.
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OKay, thank you for sharing that Arc. I will compile counters to that.
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Eh what the hell, I’ll give another reply
1. I agree with you on the Reio’s portion of power thing to some extent, the sand metaphor did make sense to me and I could see how your interpretation is valid
2. Still Arrow doesn’t really matter much for either side tbh, it doesn’t have much stake in the debate IMO
3. Those other feats you brought up don’t actually matter at the present moment, they don’t mean much in this specific debate at all, what you did was provide possible feats that the weakened Soul King could scale too if we didn’t make him 3-A or Low 2-C or 2-C, but that isn’t defending why the Soul King would still be 3-A or Low 2-C or 2-C, regardless about how I feel about the Senna Feat, Gremmy Feat, or Universal Earthquake feat, this discussion isn’t about that, it’s about whether the current ratings are still valid, and I still don’t think they are supported due to my first arguments reasoning, what the God Tiers scale to if we don’t accept the current ratings will need a separate CRT in itself
4. I am still fine with Yhwach’s strongest key and Prime Soul King getting the universal rating via specifically the Almighty, but not for his regular attacks and durability
In conclusion I still don’t think that the 3-A, Low 2-C, or 2-C are valid for the God Tiers regular attacks and durability
Debating is fun
1. I agree with you on the Reio’s portion of power thing to some extent, the sand metaphor did make sense to me and I could see how your interpretation is valid
2. Still Arrow doesn’t really matter much for either side tbh, it doesn’t have much stake in the debate IMO
3. Those other feats you brought up don’t actually matter at the present moment, they don’t mean much in this specific debate at all, what you did was provide possible feats that the weakened Soul King could scale too if we didn’t make him 3-A or Low 2-C or 2-C, but that isn’t defending why the Soul King would still be 3-A or Low 2-C or 2-C, regardless about how I feel about the Senna Feat, Gremmy Feat, or Universal Earthquake feat, this discussion isn’t about that, it’s about whether the current ratings are still valid, and I still don’t think they are supported due to my first arguments reasoning, what the God Tiers scale to if we don’t accept the current ratings will need a separate CRT in itself
4. I am still fine with Yhwach’s strongest key and Prime Soul King getting the universal rating via specifically the Almighty, but not for his regular attacks and durability
In conclusion I still don’t think that the 3-A, Low 2-C, or 2-C are valid for the God Tiers regular attacks and durability
Debating is fun
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How so?
The scans here show that the Weakened Reio stabilizes everything with Reiryoku (not the Almighty) and as Urahara explains Reiryoku is what determines how well you can fight it's your power level per se.
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They're being used to discredit the Weakened Reio's tier so I mentioned them anyhow.
I disagree because this thread suggests a new tier for the God Tiers (High 6-A) meaning part of this thread is deciding the new tier if the God Tiers lose their current scaling. This thread isn't just about reversing the upgrades, it's also about assigning a new tier.
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Well yeah, the since the Reio used his Reiryoku to stabilize the worlds, he would scale to whatever value the feat of stabilizing the worlds would result in
But what I am saying is that the stabilization feat isn’t 3-A to Low 2-C to begin with, the worlds began to shake, that’s not a 3-A or Low 2-C feat, you would need immediate or relatively fast destruction of everything at once to justify that rating, at best you could maybe get Tier 4 for the feat and they would scale to that (Not endorsing this rating at all, I know little to nothing on universal earthquakes)
Eh while that might be what the OP said, I don’t agree with talking about possible other ratings here, I think what the God Tiers will be if the current ratings get rejected needs it’s own separate discussion
That in itself is a controversial discussion
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To that I say does a multi-universal time-space quake of magnitude >9.5 not count as "significantly affecting" a universal time-space? Also destroying a tier 2 construct over a finite time is still tier 2. "merging the structure with another one" This is what is said regarding "significantly affecting", the Weakened Reio was preventing tier 2 constructs from merging with one another, which by site definitions is justification for that tier.
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Im just going to put it out there again before I make my overall counters to the new response that I already explained that being just 4-D, or any X dimensional level of power, doesnt account as being a tier anymore.
We no longer go by default that 4-D is > infinite 3-D without the verse in particular proving that is the case with an actual feat of evidence proving that is the case. This is why beings who possess even 20-Dimensional power (which would normally be in the range of, like, 1-C) can still be as weak as 10-C. Without actual feats and evidence, the X dimensional power is just unquantifiable on that scale.
We no longer go by default that 4-D is > infinite 3-D without the verse in particular proving that is the case with an actual feat of evidence proving that is the case. This is why beings who possess even 20-Dimensional power (which would normally be in the range of, like, 1-C) can still be as weak as 10-C. Without actual feats and evidence, the X dimensional power is just unquantifiable on that scale.
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I should choose my wording more carefully, but when I say 4D it's in reference to Low 2-C/2-C. I updated my posts to reflect such.
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W
Well the issue with that is that an earthquake that shakes multiple universes is kinda unquantifiable in some regard, but I will flat out admit that I am not super knowledgeable on how you would rate an earthquake on that size, as for the destruction of a 4D construct stuff, being 4D, doesn’t mean you have 4D levels of destruction necessarily
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When I say 4D construct I'm specifically talking on a tier 2 construct, I should have clarified.
But as per this site's definitions, merging tier 2 constructs qualifies for tier 2 and Weakened Reio is the power that prevents the merging of tier 2 constructs.
I'm fairly certain a magnitude >9.5 earthquake shaking apart a tier 2 construct is well within the umbrella of "significantly affect" as the tiering page puts it.
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Holding time-spaces in place and not allowing them to merge is even more unquantifiable than just stabilizing them
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No because we see that Reio’s power can stop the shaking and merging in an instant. He’s not holding them in place he’s keeping them from being destroyed.
If two charged molecules want to slam together I have to provide force that’s equal to or greater than the force trying to slam them together. Even simpler let’s say you and I are grappling, if you can stalemate me then you’d say we have comparable strength, it’s the exact same with Reio. Reio is in a grappling match with a force that can destroy the universe and he’s stalemating it.
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Then tell me what is the KE of a universe moving is? If you say you don’t know, that’s the issue, you cannot calc the result of preventing a universe from moving to slam into another, especially if these universes are infinite like you say they are, it’s unquantifiable as hell, you cannot scale the Reio to the actual collision as that’s not a result of his power, it’s a result of two universes slamming into each other
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