Bleach Downgrades (Staff Only)

[Duedate8898]

Guess I'll respond this time:

I'm going to tackle the Soul King being unquantifiable last as it takes the longest to address.

The Eyeball Creatures

• The only information we are directly told about these small fellas is that they are a torrent of Reio's power that escaped the seal, and presumably excess power leaking out of Yhwach from absorbing Reio and Mimihagi. We aren't told any information on how much potency of the Reio's power they hold, all we know is that they are unquantifiably weaker than the Reio's full power.
  • So let's address the actual anti-feat argument: If the Reio's power was beyond 3D (Low 2-C/2-C/blah blah 4D power) and the eyeball creatures are a linear percentage of that power (like 1e-10% or something tiny) it would still be 4D power and infinitely above 3D power, yet captains who's best feats are tier 6 can cut them.
    • The first issue with this is assuming that the dregs of Reio's power are a linear decrease from the Reio's original power. Regardless of if the Reio is tier 10 or tier 1, we aren't told how much power they contain. Thus the only valid form of scaling for them would be based on their own feats. Such feats include scaring some Captains and being implied to potentially consume Soifon before being crushed by Aizen. So based on what we know and what we are shown we can only claim that they are unquantifiably less than Reio's full power (as they are excess power Yhwach didn't absorb) and that they are likely capable of hurting captain level Shinigami that are far below Aizen's level. Point being you can't assert that these eyeballs are 'x' percent of the Reio's power, you can only claim they are a portion of it. And because that portions only showing is being around Lieutenant and Captain level Shinigami we can say they are at that level, and if you wanted to you could find what "percent" of the Reio's power they are based on that.
    • My second issue lies in the assumption that if something is just a portion of something else it must be a linear percentage of the whole. Think of this to help you understand: imagine an infinite volume of sand stretching out in every direction for ever, there's an infinite amount of sand granuals, if I grab a handful of sand from the infinite volume do I hold infinite sand? No, I can pick 1 single granual of sand from the infinite volume and that single piece is finite despite coming from an infinite source. Think of the eyeball creatures as the single piece of sand in this case, while they may come from a a nonfinite source, they can still be finite. A portion of something does not have to be a numerical percentage of the whole.
  • For those two above reasons, I believe using the eyeballs as means of an anti-feat relies on an unprovable (or supportable) assumption and the eyeballs should be judged on their own merits.

The Silver of Stillness

• The arrow that pierced Yhwach held the capabilities of halting his powers due to being made of the silver formed from Yhwach's own Auswahlen.
  • The anti-feat arguments goes as follows: Uryu piercing Yhwach with this silver arrow is an anti-feat because Uryu isn't tiered at Yhwach's tier.
    • The Still Silver arrow doesn't scale to Uryu and it never did (even back when the God Tiers were tier 5 here we didn't scale Uryu to the arrow). All of Uryu's attacks are comprised of his own reiatsu and the reishi he gathers, hence why he scales to his regular attacks; however, the Silver arrow is not composed of any reishi or any of Uryu's reiatsu. The arrow is composed from Yhwach's own Auswahlen and because of this it is it's own entity and doesn't scale to Uryu in any way.
      • This analogy will help you understand: if I fire a bullet from a rifle, do I physically scale to the bullet and gun? No I don't, because the rifle is not my own power it is its own weapon, I would just be the vessel of transporting of activating said weapon (i.e pulling the trigger). Similarly, this arrow is like the rifle and ammo in my analogy and Uryu is merely the vessel for transporting said weapon.
      • The arrow doesn't scale to Uryu as it isn't Uryu's own power. That same arrows only feat is piercing Yhwach, so that would mean that the Still Silver arrow scales directly to Yhwach. Claiming it as an anti-feat because it has no prior showings would be equivocal to me saying Dangai Ichigo cutting Fourth Fusion Aizen is an anti-feat for Aizen.

I actually find these two points agreeable.
Yhwach's strange attack with Reio's power doesn't really look quantifiable, since we have no idea how much power was put into or anything like that. It should be left as just unquantifiable.

On the point of the arrow, while I think the analogy falls short due to how bullets only work as weapons due to the power given by the gun that fire thems, I do find the overall idea on point. Simply put, this arrow is Yhwach's kryptonite and while its mechanics are specified as mixing with his blood in order to neutralize his power (another knock against non-corporeal for Yhwach), Yhwach's passive spirit pressure has never been shown notable enough to the point that it does what Aizen's does, case in point Renji fighting against Yhwach alongside the likes of Ichigo and Aizen without issue. So this could simply be that Yhwach still needs Blut Vene in order to properly defend himself.

Now onto everything else:

Massive Tier Jumps

• Arguing that the statements are invalid due to the tier jump being large is an argument from incredulity. This wiki has a precedence for allowing characters to climb solely based on statements, so not allowing Bleach to do the same is a bit disingenuous. That being said Bleach actually possesses a few tier 5 and tier 4/3/2 feats.
  • In Memories of Nobody, Senna uses the power of the Blanks (Blanks being souls that escaped the Soul Cycle) was able to begin slamming planets together and later push them away, which has been calculated at around planetary give or take. The amount of souls Senna used would be minuscule in comparison to the souls Reio controls, as losing Blanks isn't enough to disrupt the Soul Cycle. The point being Senna was able to perform a planetary feat a negligible amount of souls (in comparison to those Reio controls). So we know from this, Weakened Reio is at least massively above planetary.
    • Here's a calculation for how much joules needed to overcome the gravitational potential energy between the planets at their closest interaction (I can explain the science behind it in great detail if you'd really like).
  • Here Gremmy creates outer space. To which the notion that Gremmy actually created this outer space is repeated multiple times in CFYOW II. It goes as far to see that what he imagines is turned into reality, which would mean everything you see within the outer space Gremmy is real as everything you see within is the outer space Gremmy imagined. I'm going to say this for those in the back, I am NOT saying that Gremmy's normal statistics scale to this. However, we see that an ability derived from Yhwach's own soul is capable of creating an actual galaxy among numerous stars. After Gremmy dies his schrift returns to Yhwach and it is hypothesized that Gremmy was the brain of the Soul King. So here is a tier 4/3 feat that exists within Bleach (not claiming it inherently scales to anyone that's an argument for another time, but nonetheless it is a high tier feat within the series).
    • Not to mention the kanji used on the panel says literally "space of the universe or universe space", I'd still argue that that is just in reference to outer space (as irl outer space is the space of the universe), but it's interesting nonetheless that the kanji for universe are used.
  • Finally a dimensional quake with it's epicenter within the Royal Palace/Soul Society causes a an earthquake of unprecedented magnitude all the way on parts of Earth in the World of the Living (the largest recorded magnitude earthquake is 9.5). Magnitude 4 earthquakes across the observable universe have been calculated around the higher end of tier 4, so an earthquake of a much higher magnitude across multiple universal spaces would logically yield a much higher value. This feat at bare minimum should be very high into tier 4 if not reaching into tier 3 (likely qualifying for "significantly affecting" if you believe the Bleach cosmos is a tier 2 construct). This all occurred because Reio was killed and could no longer stabilize Soul Society, the Soul Cycle, and potentially the rest of the cosmos. However, as soon as Reio was reinstated the shaking stopped immediately, and once Yhwach becomes the new Reio, Jugram states the world cannot exist without Yhwach's power.
  • In Unmasked, Aizen's goal is stated to be: 藍染は霊王になり代わり、新しい世界を創造する。This translates to “Aizen sought to become the Soul King, to create a new sekai.” We know Aizen is aware of what Reio’s existence really means, as well as knowing the true nature of the Hogyoku from the startgives credence to Aizen being aware of what Reio can do. Aizen is the self-proclaimed second smartest guy outside of Urahara, with showings to back it up, he should be very reliable.
    • Sekai can mean society, world, or universe. In this context it is likely referring to universe in the sense of Bleach's entire universe, as the Reio originally created the whole Bleach universe. Either way Aizen is saying that the power of Reio is that to create and destroy worlds/universes, and you already agree the realms are universes anyway.
• So we have a tier 5 feat that Weakened Reio would massively outscale, a tier 4/3 feat that has direct connections to Yhwach, a tier 4/3 feat that is directly caused by the Weakened Reio (might qualify for tier 2 even under the "significantly affecting" portion of tier 2 definitions), and finally a databook statement backing all this up.

Don't know anything about Memories of Nobody and while I do plan to watch it soon I have not so I can't tackle that point.

For Gremmy scaling, this very much has to do with an issue that I haven't spoken about but I feel needs to spoken of. Yhwach is never shown to actually possess any of the powers that he apparently absorbs. And in fact, we have a direct contradiction to this in how after absorbing the power of Gerard, that's not what resurrects him but All-Mighty. If he hasn't shown any of the abilites, I don't think he should constitute as having them.

Dimensional Quake, it shouldn't scale simply because that wasn't something Reio caused directly. That was a side effect of his death. Secondly, the shaking actually stopped long before Yhwach had finished absorbing the Soul King. Not to mention how the manga directly contradicts CFYOW in how the earthquake on human world is shown, where we even had a character directly state probably because it's so small. The scale of the earthquake might've been large, but shaking the world has only ever been Low 6-B so it isn't even meaningful support for the ratings. The earthquake being universal is never stated or really shown from what I can see.

The point about what Aizen wished to do, actually I think could be fair supporting evidence for those that become Soul King being 3-A, so I think its fine as well.

Weakened Reio's Stability Requirements

• Requirement 1: From this that Reio is at least stabilizing the Soul Society and regulating the flow of souls (not keeping their numbers in check just controlling their literal flow, as we see Mayuri has to correct the numbers issue). We also have numerous scans saying that not just Soul Society but everything from the other realms, Dangai, and even the Garganta are in danger without the Soul King. So it is possible Weakened Reio stabilizes the entire cosmos, but I can still say with 100% certainty that Reio stabilizes Soul Society.
• Requirement 2: In We Do Knot Always Love You we find out that it's a vast amount of reiryoku that is needed for the Soul King to perform it's duties as the lynchpin and stabilize.
• Requirement 3: As shown in the previous section that when Reio stopped stabilizing, an extremely high magnitude earthquake rippled across all existence in Bleach. We also get several statements that everything will be gone from Yhwach, Kisuke, and many others as I'm sure you all are aware.
• Requirement 4: Here Urahara says you need reiryoku to fight and use powers as a soul, which proves that it's the power, that scales consistently to the statistics of any soul, that stabilizes.
• As you can see Reio actually does satisfy the new stabilization feat rules. Reio stops a high magnitude quake that spans across multiple universal realms with his reiryoku, reiryoku being someone's spiritual power/energy and as per Kisuke is what determines their fighting capabilites/statistics.

Space-Time Continua in Bleach

• Isshin states that Soul Society and World of the Living are split by a separate space-time. Giriko and CFYOW II, confirms that general relativity is canon to Bleach, further supporting the realms being space-times. When Yukio appears in front of Ginjo in CFYOW II, it confirms again that Bleach cosmology has space-time. This would make the three realms, three separate universal space-times.
  • Mayuri also says this in the anime. If the tier 2 qualifications are revised and changed this rating would be subject to change based on the new qualifications for tier 3/2, but until then I’ll use our current definitions.

Once again, controlling all these souls is hax. You shouldn't try to apply it to AP since they're unrelated, even with mention of their being a certain power level needed to do so that doesn't mean the power needed to control universal soul flow is actually universal in nature. And while I agree that the Soul King is one of the pillars for soul society, he is not the sole pillar since both the Soul King being alive and the proper balance of souls are needed for everything to stay in place, if either one goes wrong then the other isn't enough to maintain Soul Society on its own. This is illustrated very clearly at the start of the series and is the sole reason for the original war with the quincies. This is the main reason why I believe the Soul King doesn't properly qualify.

The earthquake itself isn't ever stated to reach outside of the planets or shown to do so. Sure, it seems to cross dimensions but that doesn't really illustrate its power at all. That just means it looks like it was localized to the planetary bodies.

Also Reio doesn't directly stop the quake itself, at least that doesn't seem to be the case. More that everything is back in order so the quake naturally stops as a side effect.

And this last point, about the space-times. Isshin never says that Soul Society and The World of the Living are split by a seperate space-time. That's not at all what that quote is saying. The quote is saying that the dangai is cut off from time and space. It gives no indication to either of those two places being separate spacetimes.

And that all pretty much covers my two cents on Arc's latest points.

 

[Duedate8898]

Apologies for cutting into that conversation, but I've been working on this since Arc posted his points and would like to have my bit said before Kukui says his own.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Then tell me what is the KE of a universe moving is? If you say you don’t know, that’s the issue, you cannot calc the result of preventing a universe from moving to slam into another, especially if these universes are infinite like you say they are, it’s unquantifiable as hell, you cannot scale the Reio to the actual collision as that’s not a result of his power, it’s a result of two universes slamming into each other

If an infinite universe is moving with any speed it’s infinite joules.

No because we see the Reio stop the collision immediately. Reio is stabilizing a tier 2 construct with his raw power, WHICH as per this own sites standards counts as means for the tier by the stabilization page.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

For Gremmy scaling, this very much has to do with an issue that I haven't spoken about but I feel needs to spoken of. Yhwach is never shown to actually possess any of the powers that he apparently absorbs. And in fact, we have a direct contradiction to this in how after absorbing the power of Gerard, that's not what resurrects him but All-Mighty. If he hasn't shown any of the abilites, I don't think he should constitute as having them.

No we are still told the schrifts return to him. You’d have to prove that that statement is false. I’m not using Gremmy’s feat to scale anyone it was more so showing that the Soul King’s brain can create galaxies (its support).

Once again, controlling all these souls is hax. You shouldn't try to apply it to AP since they're unrelated, even with mention of their being a certain power level needed to do so that doesn't mean the power needed to control universal soul flow is actually universal in nature. And while I agree that the Soul King is one of the pillars for soul society, he is not the sole pillar since both the Soul King being alive and the proper balance of souls are needed for everything to stay in place, if either one goes wrong then the other isn't enough to maintain Soul Society on its own. This is illustrated very clearly at the start of the series and is the sole reason for the original war with the quincies. This is the main reason why I believe the Soul King doesn't properly qualify.

Incorrect, if you review my scans for requirements 2 and 4, Reio is doing so with Reiryoku which directly scales to your statistics.

The earthquake itself isn't ever stated to reach outside of the planets or shown to do so. Sure, it seems to cross dimensions but that doesn't really illustrate its power at all. That just means it looks like it was localized to the planetary bodies.

This is incorrect as we are told that the quake nearly shattered the barriers of the realms on impact which means it travelled to and through the outside to in or inside to out.

Also Reio doesn't directly stop the quake itself, at least that doesn't seem to be the case. More that everything is back in order so the quake naturally stops as a side effect.

Yes he does, he stabilizes the realms with his Reiryoku. It’s the reinstation of the Reio that stops the quake. Jugram confirms this when Yhwach becomes Reio by saying the world cannot stand without his power.

And this last point, about the space-times. Isshin never says that Soul Society and The World of the Living are split by a seperate space-time. That's not at all what that quote is saying. The quote is saying that the dangai is cut off from time and space. It gives no indication to either of those two places being separate spacetimes.

I address that all we know for certain is that the universe is a Low 2-C structure while only possibly a 2-C structure. That would just change the ratings to 3-A (or whatever the quake is calc’d at) to Low 2-C.

 

[ShieldsPlus]

Then tell me what is the KE of a universe moving is? If you say you don’t know, that’s the issue, you cannot calc the result of preventing a universe from moving to slam into another, especially if these universes are infinite like you say they are, it’s unquantifiable as hell, you cannot scale the Reio to the actual collision as that’s not a result of his power, it’s a result of two universes slamming into each other

If I may ask, why is it that it is a requirement to specifically figure out the kinetic energy of a moving universe when standard definitions of math & physics (limited to 3-D) no longer apply when dealing with feats that clearly go and beyond the scope of it?

If there is a feat where it involves the merging of two different space-time continuums together, this would automatically make it Low Multiverse Level, correct?

To prevent the in-case scenario from happening above, it would require equal amounts of energy applied directly towards the continuums that are being merged in order to prevent them from doing so.

Finding out the actual value of the KE wouldn't be necessary here as it is accepted that feats that involve merging (or even creation) of two or more space-time continuums automatically places these feats at Tier 2, and the energy required to perform such a feat is not necessary.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

“If an infinite universe is moving with any speed it’s infinite joules.“

Except we don’t except KE feats that involve infinite mass and infinite speed, we cannot even begin to quantify that kind of calc, we don’t even accepted light speed KE feats, so this should be no different, the feat is unquantifiable by our standards, if said thing was supported by other Tier 2 feats like Ichigo almost nuking the universe with a Getsuga Tensho, then maybe we’d have some legit Tier 2, but as it stands, the Tier 2 for regular AP and Durability doesn’t work at all for the God Tiers

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

“If an infinite universe is moving with any speed it’s infinite joules.“

Except we don’t except KE feats that involve infinite mass and infinite speed, we cannot even begin to quantify that kind of calc, we don’t even accepted light speed KE feats, so this should be no different, the feat is unquantifiable by our standards, if said thing was supported by other Tier 2 feats like Ichigo almost nuking the universe with a Getsuga Tensho, then maybe we’d have some legit Tier 2, but as it stands, the Tier 2 for regular AP and Durability doesn’t work at all for the God Tiers

Refer to shields post.

But again, significantly affecting a tier 2 construct is tier 2 on this site.

Stopping a magnitude >9.5 quake across a tier 2 construct is tier 2.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Refer to shields post.

But again, significantly affecting a tier 2 construct is tier 2 on this site.

This is the last thing I’m gonna post since I have nothing more to say and I kinda have to sleep, curse you human body

It isn’t actually, in the Tier 2 thread it was brought up that the explanation behind Tier 2 needs to more defined actually and that the standards for getting the Tier 2 rating are far more complicated, significantly effecting alone, despite what the tiering page says doesn’t qualify for Tier 2

Otherwises Neo Eclipse may have beeb able to be Tier 2

I just don’t think the rating is solid enough at all to give Tier 2 to the God Tiers regular stats, it’s all reliant on statements alone and the statements themselves do not directly indicate Tier 2

Anyway I got to go as I said, I had quite a bit of fun debating here, doing research and getting to know Bleach scaling better was enjoyable

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

This is the last thing I’m gonna post since I have nothing more to say and I kinda have to sleep, curse you human body

It isn’t actually, in the Tier 2 thread it was brought up that the explanation behind Tier 2 needs to more defined actually and that the standards for getting the Tier 2 rating are far more complicated, significantly effecting alone, despite what the tiering page says doesn’t qualify for Tier 2

Otherwises Neo Eclipse may have beeb able to be Tier 2

I just don’t think the rating is solid enough at all to give Tier 2 to the God Tiers regular stats, it’s all reliant on statements alone and the statements themselves do not directly indicate Tier 2

Anyway I got to go as I said, I had quite a bit of fun debating here, doing research and getting to know Bleach scaling better was enjoyable

It’s not all reliant on statements, we have the feat, the quake. And until the tiering page is revised it meets its justification standards.

If anyone wants to calc the result of a magnitude >9.5 earthquake across 3 universe size realms I’m down to tier them at that value as I mentioned in thread.

 

[Duedate8898]

No we are still told the schrifts return to him. You’d have to prove that that statement is false. I’m not using Gremmy’s feat to scale anyone it was more so showing that the Soul King’s brain can create galaxies (its support).

I cited a specific instance in which a schrift should've been used, and it wasn't. Gerard's miracle works automatically, yet Yhwach wasn't revived with it but with the All-Mighty. That directly contradicts him having that power.

Incorrect, if you review my scans for requirements 2 and 4, Reio is doing so with Reiryoku which directly scales to your statistics.

Neither scan contradicts what I said. Just because he's helping control the flow with his spiritual pressure, that doesn't mean his pressure correlates to being universal in AP. That's a hax feat and a range one.

This is incorrect as we are told that the quake nearly shattered the barriers of the realms on impact which means it travelled to and through the outside to in or inside to out.

That doesn't make the quakes universal in scale. My point directly addresses them crossing dimensions not really telling us their power. We're only shown the quakes affecting two worlds and the barriers that keep them seperate. Neither really points to the quakes being universal in scale.

Yes he does, he stabilizes the realms with his Reiryoku. It’s the reinstation of the Reio that stops the quake. Jugram confirms this when Yhwach becomes Reio by saying the world cannot stand without his power.

My point here is that the quakes themselves are caused because the Soul King is no longer doing their job, so they stop because the Soul King is once again doing their job. That job not just being the stabilization of Soul Society but the soul cycle flow. So instead of directly stopping the quakes, the soul king just needs to be doing their normal duties so that everything else gets back in order.

I address that all we know for certain is that the universe is a Low 2-C structure while only possibly a 2-C structure. That would just change the ratings to 3-A (or whatever the quake is calc’d at) to Low 2-C.

The quake itself will not yield anything meaningful due to how its presented. Shaking two worlds and almost destroying dimensional barriers is at best At least Low 6-B and at worst unquantifiable, since the actual distance crossed isn't possible to calc.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I cited a specific instance in which a schrift should've been used, and it wasn't. Gerard's miracle works automatically, yet Yhwach wasn't revived with it but with the All-Mighty. That directly contradicts him having that power.

Yhwach rewrote his death meaning he never technically died so that doesn’t work.

Neither scan contradicts what I said. Just because he's helping control the flow with his spiritual pressure, that doesn't mean his pressure correlates to being universal in AP. That's a hax feat and a range one.

Urahara verbatim states Reiryoku correlates to stats.

That doesn't make the quakes universal in scale. My point directly addresses them crossing dimensions not really telling us their power. We're only shown the quakes affecting two worlds and the barriers that keep them seperate. Neither really points to the quakes being universal in scale.

Occam’s razor says they do as Reio affects things on a universal scale. You have to make more assumptions to say it was localized on just the planets and barriers.

My point here is that the quakes themselves are caused because the Soul King is no longer doing their job, so they stop because the Soul King is once again doing their job. That job not just being the stabilization of Soul Society but the soul cycle flow. So instead of directly stopping the quakes, the soul king just needs to be doing their normal duties so that everything else gets back in order.

If you hold back a force that can destroy the universe there’s not much difference between that and holding back the destruction of the universe.

The quake itself will not yield anything meaningful due to how its presented. Shaking two worlds and almost destroying dimensional barriers is at best At least Low 6-B and at worst unquantifiable, since the actual distance crossed isn't possible to calc.

It’s a universal quake as per my early points in this response.

 

[Duedate8898]

Yhwach rewrote his death meaning he never technically died so that doesn’t work.

Yhwach's All-Mighty isn't passive nor automatic in its fate manipulation while Gerards Miracle is Automatic. It should've activated automatically and before All-Mighty. However, we shall not argue this here. It has very little to do with the current CRT and I apologize for bringing it up.

Urahara verbatim states Reiryoku correlates to stats.

That doesn't mean Hax correlates with stats though.

Occam’s razor says they do as Reio affects things on a universal scale. You have to make more assumptions to say it was localized on just the planets and barriers.

You're saying: Reio controls soul flow on universal scale= Reio can affect things on a universal scale= Reio dies and we see two planets start shaking and are told the barriers between them almost broke= Earthquake must've been universal in scale.

I'm saying: We're shown two planets shaking and are told the barriers between them almost broke=Earthquake only covers these two areas.

I'm only going off of what we're shown in the manga and a statement from one of the light novels.
You're taking a statement and then making an inference off of that statement and then combining it with what we're shown on screen to assume that it is much larger than what we're directly shown.

I'm not making more inferences here.

If you hold back a force that can destroy the universe there’s not much difference between that and holding back the destruction of the universe.

Reio isn't holding back a force that can destroy the universe. Reio is just helping keep the universe stable. Those two are not the same thing, nor do I believe they should be equalized without a statement saying they're comparable.

It’s a universal quake as per my early points in this response.

It’s not a universal quake as per my early points in this response.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Yhwach's All-Mighty isn't passive nor automatic in its fate manipulation while Gerards Miracle is Automatic. It should've activated automatically and before All-Mighty. However, we shall not argue this here. It has very little to do with the current CRT and I apologize for bringing it up.

I’ll say one last thing he could’ve rewrote the future before he died, but I’ll agree to move on.

That doesn't mean Hax correlates with stats though.

No it means that Reio stabilizing and controlling souls isn’t a hax. Lol if he does it with Reiryoku it’s not hax it’s a statistic.

I'm only going off of what we're shown in the manga and a statement from one of the light novels.
You're taking a statement and then making an inference off of that statement and then combining it with what we're shown on screen to assume that it is much larger than what we're directly shown.

And going off statements we are told the realms are being destroyed. That means the entire universal space. That means logically the quake would happen on a universal scale as we are told that the realms (which we agree are universes) are falling apart. We are directly told it’s the realms being affected.

Reio isn't holding back a force that can destroy the universe. Reio is just helping keep the universe stable. Those two are not the same thing, nor do I believe they should be equalized without a statement saying they're comparable.

Reio is preventing the universes destruction. When he is no longer using his Reiryoku to stabilize something everything starts to be destroyed. If you prevent a Low 2-C construct, and universe, an entire space-time continuum as Mayuri puts it, from being destroyed that is Low 2-C.

 

[Duedate8898]

No it means that Reio stabilizing and controlling souls isn’t a hax. Lol if he does it with Reiryoku it’s not hax it’s a statistic.

We shall agree to disagree on this point until new information is brought up in that case.

And going off statements we are told the realms are being destroyed. That means the entire universal space. That means logically the quake would happen on a universal scale as we are told that the realms (which we agree are universes) are falling apart. We are directly told it’s the realms being affected.

We're directly showed and told only about the World of the Living and Soul Society shaking. Nothing about anything else besides those barriers being affected by that earthquake is ever mentioned or shown. Just because the planets are shaking, that doesn't mean the universes are. And besides, I don't think we should be scaling Reio to these quakes in the first place. They happen as a side effect of him no longer stabilizing Soul Society not as a direct result of anything he controls. And once he assumes his position again, the quakes stop.

Reio is preventing the universes destruction. When he is no longer using his Reiryoku to stabilize something everything starts to be destroyed. If you prevent a Low 2-C construct, and universe, an entire space-time continuum as Mayuri puts it, from being destroyed that is Low 2-C.

You know who else prevented a universal structure from destroying itself?
Mayuri.
But we can both agree that scaling Mayuri to Low 2-C cause of that makes no sense.
And that's because context matters.
Reio being alive is not the sole factor for the stability of Soul Society.
And since he's not the soul thing keeping everything stable, I don't think him in his weakened state should scale to universal.

 

[Damage3245]

I'm in agreement with Mitch and Duedate.

We don't have a reason to think that the quakes are happening across the entire universe.

 

[Duedate8898]

Now, I need to rest for the night. So Arc, any more points you have I will have to respond to later or someone else will before me.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

We shall agree to disagree on this point until new information is brought up in that case.

This isn’t a point of contention. We are told the Reio does it through Reiryoku and Kisuke tells us Reiryoku correlates to your physical stats. What’s so hard to understand?

We're directly showed and told only about the World of the Living and Soul Society shaking. Nothing about anything else besides those barriers being affected by that earthquake is ever mentioned or shown. Just because the planets are shaking, that doesn't mean the universes are. And besides, I don't think we should be scaling Reio to these quakes in the first place. They happen as a side effect of him no longer stabilizing Soul Society not as a direct result of anything he controls. And once he assumes his position again, the quakes stop.

Exactly and World of the Living and Soul Society are their own respective universes. What do you mean he shouldn’t scale he literally stops the quake. His entire purpose is keeping the worlds from collapsing and he does so with raw power. He does this with literal statistics correlating power.

You know who else prevented a universal structure from destroying itself?
Mayuri.
But we can both agree that scaling Mayuri to Low 2-C cause of that makes no sense.
And that's because context matters.
Reio being alive is not the sole factor for the stability of Soul Society.
And since he's not the soul thing keeping everything stable, I don't think him in his weakened state should scale to universal.

You know what the difference here is Mayuri did so by correcting the Soul balance. On the other hand we are told that Reio with his raw power stabilizes the actual realms. We are never told Reio stabilizes the soul cycle. We are only told he stabilizes the realms.

 

[Damage3245]

On the other hand we are told that Reio with his raw power stabilizes the actual realms. We are never told Reio stabilizes the soul cycle. We are only told he stabilizes the realms.

If Reio stabilizies the soul cycle (as he is stated to do so in the novels), then as a consequence the realms are kept stable. That is what could be meant by "The Soul King stabilizies the realms".

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

If Reio stabilizies the soul cycle (as he is stated to do so in the novels), then as a consequence the realms are kept stable. That is what could be meant by "The Soul King stabilizies the realms".

You know two pages after that statement in the novels it’s revealed to be a lie right.

The. Soul. King. Does. Not. Stabilize. The. Cycle. He. Stabilizes. The. Realms.

 

[Damage3245]

You know two pages after that statement in the novels it’s revealed to be a lie right.

The. Soul. King. Does. Not. Stabilize. The. Cycle. He. Stabilizes. The. Realms.

Where is it stated that that part specifically is a lie?

It was the circumstances for how the Soul King became the Soul King that was covered up with deception.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Where is it stated that that part specifically is a lie?

It was the circumstances for how the Soul King became the Soul King that was covered up with deception.

It’s on you to prove that only specific parts were lies. As it’s just said that in general “adults spoke in lies” which implies everything his dad just said is a lie.

 

[Damage3245]

It’s on you to prove that only specific parts were lies. As it’s just said that in general “adults spoke in lies” which implies everything his dad just said is a lie.

A person can tell a lie, or multiple lies, without everything they say being a lie. We may just have to agree to disagree on this point.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

A person can tell a lie, or multiple lies, without everything they say being a lie. We may just have to agree to disagree on this point.

No damage, the second we are told his dad was lying we cannot assume any of it is true.

Unless you can prove that that portion of his statement was 100% truth, then the default assumption is that it was a lie. You know why? Because it was stated he lied.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

We have Yhwach say that Reio stabilizes Soul Society the realm, never mentioning anything about Reio stabilizing the soul cycle.

Then we have Tokinada’s dad say Reio stabilizes soul cycle and immediately after he’s revealed to be a liar.

Which statement is more credible?

You cannot in good faith assert that the words of Tokinada’s dad are truthful. You cannot even prove they’re truthful, there is no evidence to suggest anything he said was truthful. Especially when the ONLY thing we are told is that he lied.

You do know the entire purpose of the Tsunayashiro clan is to fabricate lies about the Soul King right? And as of now the crux of the downgrade is being argued off of a lie from a clan labeled as notorious liars.

To add one last point if the Soul King truly did control and manipulate the Soul Cycle why didn’t he correct the imbalance? Mayuri was the one who had to fix the imbalance of souls, it wasn’t Soul King. So there’s even proof that the Soul King doesn’t do anything with the Soul Cycle. Similar thing happened with Azashiro in the novels he posed a threat because he was going to kill all Hollows. If the Soul King could manipulate and control the Cycle then he’d be able to correct this no problem and Azashiro wouldn’t have been a threat. However, that’s not the case, because the Soul King doesn’t do anything with the Soul Cycle. All he does is stabilize the realms.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Okay. I know there was a bit of responding after he made this response, but here are my counters against Arc's big response from earlier.

Counters for Arc’s Argument:​

Points I Disagree With:​

Reio Eyeball Creatures​

Okay, I will be a bit fair here and say that I can somewhat see where Arc is coming from on this part of the argument by using the infinite sand example. However, as it was said earlier with another kind of example, this isn’t really a good comparison since in this case, we are talking about the levels of energy itself being infinite while in the of case of this example, it is dealing with an infinite amount of a physical object in some form, which can be quantifiably “divided” apart unlike the former. Just as you can’t have “half of a space-time”, you can't possess “half of infinite energy” in a quantifiable sense. No matter the divided portion, a portion of infinite power is still going to be infinite power and this is the case with how we treat the very basics of Low 2-C power and power within higher tiers in our tiering system.

But to get back on track with addressing this case here with Bleach, it is ultimately as I said before. Whether divided numerically or just divided to vague extents as “portions” or “remnants” of power, Low 2-C energy is still going to exist out of all of that in some form. Low 2-C power will still be an existing thing here. Needing to be told of a “linear percentage” of how much potency the creatures power possesses is setting forth a reverse burden of proof that already gets fulfilled by the energy itself being assumed to be Low 2-C in the first place, since as said already, Low 2-C power divided up into smaller portions will always remain Low 2-C power, they will just become unquantifiably weaker the more it is divided up. How much weaker? That's of course unknown. But whether its done in a linear sense to say 10% of Low 2-C power, or just a random percentage level of that power as a “portion”, “fraction”, “remnant”, the power nonetheless would still be Low 2-C on some level and in some fashion. It can never be quantifiably divided up to the point where the power will be weakened enough to magically drop out of Low 2-C tier. If this were still the case of 5-A or tiers lower than Low 2-C, you could make this argument because those tiers can be quantifiably divided with quantifiably limited power and have this argument prevent that from being the case in lower tiers. Dividing, say, 5-A power isn’t going to automatically be 5-A within the divided portions, it can very easily drop to something as low as 7-B or 8-A. But now, as said before, we are dealing with tiers of power with energy that is infinite and thus cannot be judged the same way as that anymore.

TL;DR- While I can see and sort’ve understood where Arc is coming from on this part of the argument, it ultimately doesnt change what I already said before on this. Low 2-C power, no matter the division and no matter how much it gets divided, will still remain as Low 2-C power as per the basis of how we treat Low 2-C and our tiering system. The Reio eyeball creatures would, in some fashion and on some level, still retain Low 2-C power if Weakened Reio’s power is to be assumed as Low 2-C, which again, returns us back to square one on the anti-feats and inconsistencies of non-Low 2-C god tiers being able to fend off and destroy these remnants of the Soul King’s power extremely easily with no difficulties or present issues set against them. Which again, leaves the choice in either making these characters randomly scale to the upgrades and become Low 2-C, or make the notion of the Weakened Soul King’s Reiatsu being Low 2-C too inconsistent.

The Silver of Stillness (Again)​

Before I address this part of the argument again involving the arrow, I just want to reiterate a point again that seems to keep getting misinterpreted for some reason. The original post was not suggesting Uryu himself scales to Yhwach’s statistics or the arrows. The original post was addressing the matter of why the power of the Silver Arrow individually doesn’t scale to Yhwach if it isn’t an anti feat. It wasn’t suggesting Uryu becomes Low 2-C, it was pointing out why the Silver Arrow specifically wasn’t becoming Low 2-C from the upgrades. Just wanted to help clarify this point again.

Anywho, I don’t really have much left to say on this point about the arrow itself physically scaling to Yhwach’s level. We never considered that before with the arrow here, showing that there was room for doubt on this and being somewhat skeptical, but if scaling it physically to Yhwach is viable, I don't mind conceding on this part of the original post’s argument and disagreeing with it being an anti-feat as well. I just would rather us not go with an option that never became a thing before without being entirely sure its a viable option or not.

Massive Tier Jumps​

Getting to this point, im just going to clear some of this up somewhat. Like I said before in my counters to Reio, mentioning over verses to use this “2 wrongs don’t make a right” type of argument isn’t really a viable counter, because all you are doing is just putting those verses on the chopping block to be analyzed and downgraded as well. Just because other over verses do one thing, doesn’t make it automatically the same as this. Or even moreso, it does not make them necessarily correct. I wont go into detail about this again as you can look at it in my counters against Reio.

Now, while it is true that we tend to take statements as viable evidence to allow characters and verses to perform tier climbs in upgrades, part of the difference between what those verses do and what's being proposed here for Bleach isn't the concept of tier climbing, but the extent of the tier climbing itself. I obviously cannot speak for everyone here, but I don’t recall a single time anywhere on this site where statements by themselves are viable enough evidence for a verse to be able to climb 15 whole different tiers at once, which is practically climbing a decent fraction of our entire tiering system all in one go. Like I said earlier before, more evidence should be required the higher you climb tiers, as each tier is bigger and higher than the other by different leaps and bounds. Statements are of course good supporting evidence, but when they become the main core evidence behind the upgrade and there’s no supporting feats, scaling or context to help reinforce it, that becomes a problem. It leaves skepticism and doesn't make the gigantic tier leap ironclad.

Going right along with that, we get to other strong evidence that is supporting feats, scaling and context. When statements are used as main evidence for a big upgrade, and get reinforced by supporting feats and scaling, it makes the statements more viable and more likely to be acceptable evidence for the upgrade as opposed to only statements being used as evidence. That is another key difference. And this leads me back into the points related to Memories of Nobody and Gremmy, which i’ll be getting to next.

TL;DR- This part of the argument comes down to whether or not statements, and only statements, are solid enough or not good enough evidence to grant an upgrade on a drastic scale as this one without requiring more to reinforce it. The people who, so far, have been in support of the upgrade agree with statements not being viable enough for whats being asked of here.

Gremmy & Memories of Nobody Feats ​

As I said earlier in this thread, Gremmy and Memories of Nobodies need their own threads to discuss replacement scaling. The purpose of this thread’s topic, which by itself is quite obviously its own controversial matter that's sparked a great deal of attention and discussion related to it, is to propose the removal of the upgrades and downgrade them. Not to discuss new replacement upgrades. Those will need their own threads to be given the proper attention and discussions that won't ultimately derail this one.

Gremmy especially will definitely be needing his own thread for what his Visionary does, as a recent thread made for him already sparked up its own controversy that cant and shouldn't be handled in the same thread as this topic.

Dimensional Quaking​

This I will address here since it’s directly related to the topic.

First things first, the statement about the magnitude of the quaking being unprecedented. Let’s try and not use this scan to try and make this sound more impressive than it actually is. After all, this is literally quaking that's stretching across dimensions (i’ll be getting to this point in a second), which certainly doesn’t fall under what quaking is normally perceived to be. Of course it’s unprecedented, because this is something that is far far far outside the realm of what normal quaking does that it can’t be explained in the eyes of ordinary people in the World of the Living. This is very evident by the fact that this quaking in the World of The Living was point blank said to be so small, and long lasting, by Ichigo’s friends and sisters, so small that it was not even being reported on news stations as any kind of mass world-ending phenomena that doesn’t send the World of the Living into any kind of chaotic disorder.

But more importantly, the quaking itself. We can’t quantify these dimensional quakes, as I figured this might've been brought up as a possibility here at some point. We can’t quantify these dimensional quakes due to the simple and blatant fact that these quakes are, in-fact, dimensional. They don’t operate by ordinary quantifiable means of quaking in any way. These quakes literally stretch across space-time, through dimensions that are considered separate space-times, which already makes it incapable of being quantified. This just returns to the previous point before about it being a feat that uses unquantifiable levels of 4-D power. 4-D power because of it going across space-time, and through different space-times, but unquantifiable due to it not destroying much of anything in the given timeframe and it's just affecting the worlds in different unknown manners.

To clarify, while it is true that we give tiers for feats that shake universes, this is only the case when its done on a quantifiable scale, like it is the case with shaking being done on a 3-D scale by shaking the observable universe. If Bleach’s universes weren’t proven to be separate space-time continuums, or if the shaking was done in just one of the universes, you’d probably be able to quantify this under the normal means since it wouldn't be quaking that's stretching across space-time, but normal physical distances that can be quantified normally. But that isn't the case here with the verse having a 4-D cosmology with the worlds being their own separate space-time continuums, making it a different case compared to feats with ordinary quaking done. Effecting the universe without destroying it on levels that can be tiered are, just that, effecting the universe. Its too unknown and too unquantifiable to be given a tier.

And for what it's worth, this isn’t even the first time this was brought up for Bleach and rejected either actually. This was proposed before already. Back when the God Tiers were still 5-A, someone here attempted to calc and apply the dimensional quaking to make the 5-A ratings even higher. But it was rejected because it was strictly made clear that quaking that's being done across different dimensions is impossible to be quantified under normal means. This case here is more or less the same thing, only we would replace it with the quaking using unknown levels of 4-D energy that can’t be granted a tier either.

TL;DR- Just as the destruction of the worlds isn’t quantifiable as 3-A or Low 2-C for the reasons given, the worlds being shaken by the dimensional quaking isn’t quantifiable on either tier either. This quaking isn’t the same as if normal quaking across the observable universe is being done to reach 4-A like results. This is a case where the quaking is literally traversing through different space-time continuums that are separated from each other. Had Bleach’s worlds not been proven and accepted as separate space-times? The argument for the quaking getting a tier could probably be made. But that’s not the case. Quaking that goes across space-time is entirely impossible to quantify like normal quaking can be under the normal means, the only thing the dimensional quaking could be given is the fact that its applying 4-D energy on some level, which again returns us back to the point that its just unquantifiable 4-D energy that cant be granted a tier.

Weakened Reio Fitting The New Stability Standards​

This was already explained and dealt with before in the original post and in earlier counter arguments made by myself. The Soul King’s feat was explained on why it doesn't fit any of the new stability standards besides Requirement 2 at the most.

The Soul King stabilizing both the worlds and the flow of souls is an impossibility, it’s either one or the other. And as I said before, arguing that he stabilizes both just makes the opposition's case even more questionable on what exactly the Soul King sustains and where his power is actually being applied. This kind of clarification is very important under the new stability standards. More importantly, this argument of Arc’s still has yet to address the inconsistency of the Quincies threatening the Cosmology despite the Soul King’s existence, which i’ll quote here again so that it isn’t missed:

Evidence 2: The Threat of the Quincies​

This will be where most of the support comes in for the Soul King stabilizing the soul cycle as I saw this mentioned elsewhere here. And that is the threat the Quincies posed to the Bleach cosmology. These scans will explain the details:

Quincies and Shinigami differed from each other in how they disposed of hollows. Shinigami are considered balancers who cleanse hollows and send them to the Soul Society, while Quincies eradicate them completely. As a result, the Quincies removed those souls from the soul cycle of sending souls between the Soul Society and Living World. By doing that, they would unbalance the amount of souls between the two worlds, which as explained, would cause the collapse of the universe as a result. Being a threat to the worlds in this manner was the reason why Shinigami actively sought to prevent Quincies from disrupting the balance in the first place, even going as far as to kill majority of them.

The Soul King stabilizing the entire Cosmology conflicts with this. The Quincies are, narratively and consistently, treated as threats to the Bleach cosmology in-universe. Why would the Quincies be regarded as such a threat to the worlds if the Soul King directly stabilizes these said worlds? No matter what the Quincies would do to the soul cycle, Reio stabilizing the worlds would prevent them from getting collapsed. Even more so, Shinigami's would not have been required to dispose of Quincies if the Soul King sustaining the worlds was actually the case. The only way this doesn't conflict with this plot-point is if the Soul King only sustains the flow of souls.

Simply put, regardless of Yhwach’s statement and what CFYOW has to say on the matter, this part of the original post was never refuted and still gives a strong point against the Soul King sustaining the worlds. Not that it ultimately matters much anyway given the arguments against the sustaining feat being quantifiable, but it stands nonetheless. The quincies would never be able to threaten the Cosmology in the first place if the Soul King sustained the cosmology directly, which implies that the only way his existence doesn’t conflict with this plot-point is if he only sustains the flow of souls, not the cosmology.

The Soul King doesn’t fit requirement 3 either for the reasons given many times in the thread on why his feat is not quantifiable. Neither in destruction or the quaking.

And the Soul King doesn’t fit Requirement 4 based off the anti-feat inconsistencies with non god tiers that are as weak as Ichigo’s son to as strong as Captains like Byakuya being able to fight against and destroy Reiatsu from Yhwach and the Soul King, which for the reasons given before too, would still have the Reiatsu be Low 2-C and would again return us to the inconsistencies of the Reiatsu being Low 2-C offensively, assuming the Weakened Soul King’s sustenance feat qualifies for any tier to begin with.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

That response will also be it for me for tonight. Im signing off for now and will be back sometime tomorrow to address more stuff it comes up by then.

 

[Jvando]

I have to agree with Duedate’s points more than Arc. So far, while I have seen information that suggests the God Tiers could all be low 2-C if X and Y interpretation of statements was taken, I haven’t seen anything decisive or conclusive in that regard. As noted in the back and forth between Arc and Duedate, they have different interpretations and one can’t honestly claim, with 100% certainty and no bias, that one interpretation is true and the other is false. As such, I believe the lower end should be taken (disagree with the upgrades) until further more conclusive evidence comes up that says otherwise.

Another aspect of this that I don’t think has been talked about enough is the idea that even if we granted that SK was low 2-C and above for stabilizing the worlds with his energy (I don’t believe he is, but for arguments sake), how would that scale to his other stats? If all his energy is going into stabilizing the world, how much does he have otherwise? I just don’t think things are so straightforward when it comes to upgrading these individuals so high compared to their previous rating.

In any case, if I haven’t made it clear, I can’t support keeping the characters at Low 2-C

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

I don't know how to format and this is really my first time posting and linking scans on the new forum, so if it comes out ugly, it's just your eyes are bad.

Also apologies for how late this response is, I started my first semester at my new university, it's pretty prestigious and course heavy as those who know me have been hearing me complain about. I was blindsided by how busy I was going to be, I dropped my work to finish this up sooner.

I'll be going through each section and clearing things up because I know AKM didn't write this himself and Kukui using outdated info did instead.

Also, I've read the latest comments in this thread and frankly you're all just diverging off the main points of the threads, but I'll address a few I think are valid in some of the points here.

---

First Issue: Soul Kings Passive Feat Is Gone - Actually Still Exists​

The feat still exists, the Soul King is passively maintaining the worlds and dimensions, this is misleading. I will explain further.

Reason 1: Stability Feat Standards Being Revised​

I don't know anything about this, but Warren covered this anyways, so I will copy what he wrote:

The main thing I want to mention is that this belief that the current rankings are solely based on the Soul King’s stability feat is ludicrous.

And while, I think a good case can be made to argue that the stabilization feat is legitimate, as it is described that it is via Reiatsu or owns power that the worlds are held up as stated by Jugram here about how without Reio, Yhwach’s power is the only thing that can keep the world standing up.

There are other quotes, I believe, that state the same thing - that the stabilization of the world is done via the person’s power or Reiatsu. But I don’t have the time, resources, or willpower to make the arguments or search for the scans.

For a reminder of the requirements:

Requirement 1: Specify what exactly is being stabilized so that it is made clear what the character's sustainability is doing precisely.

Requirement 2: Prove that the stabilized structure is being directly sustained by the power of the character and not from the character's abilities, life force, existence, magical properties or any unknown connection that is independent of their statistics.

Requirement 3: Prove that the character's stabilization is comparable to the scale of the structure they are stabilizing. Preferably, it should be proven that the character's sustainability is comparable to the destruction of the structure to best show that their power rivals the destructive output of what would destroy the structure in the first place. Please keep in mind that this may vary depending on how the structure's destruction would occur. For example, if a character sustains the existence of a universe that would not be instantly or immediately destroyed when no longer supported, the power of their sustainability would not be comparable to destructive output that completely and immediately destroys a universe, and would not be sufficient enough to be given a 3-A or Low 2-C rating. However, their sustainability could be given either rating if the universe they sustain would be completely destroyed instantly or immediately without support.

Requirement 4: Prove that the power of the character's stabilization consistently scales to their regular statistics, similar to our standards for creation feats.

The Weakened Soul King obtains these requirements by:

Requirement 1: Numerous mentions that all three realms are sustained by the Soul King

Requirement 2: It is mentioned that it is through Reiatsu or power that all three realms are being held up.

Requirement 3: Creation began falling apart as soon as the Soul King died, and nowhere was there any mention that there was any time to try and fix this problem, just the opposite, everyone was shouting that they were going to die. And the CFYOW novel says, the one you showed, that the world will “crumble immediately”. Not “START crumbling immediately”, but crumble immediately. This is a direct statement stating immediate destruction.

Requirement 4: Reiatsu is the pressure of their level of energy, and thus, scales to their strength.

I would argue that this is grounds alone for allowing the Weakened Soul King’s stabilization feat to be legitimate.

There are more scans, proof, and arguments on the matter, but as I said earlier, I am not the one who will force himself to find them, that task should be done by a more passionate and knowledgeable member like the ones I have named above.

At the very worst though, all this would do is make the WSK’s tier Unknown, but again, this character’s tiering doesn’t affect the stronger God Tiers of the verse because they scale to different feats.

- @Warren_Valion

Reason 2: The Soul King & The Soul Cycle - Soul King Doesn't Maintain the Universe Through the Soul Cycle​

This one felt insulting because whoever lazily came up with this reasoning just didn't bother to do their work nor remain consistent with their arguments as I will proceed to explain.

Evidence 1: Cant Fear Your Own World Novel​

Before posting this scan you should've read Volume 3, the full page, and the following page.

As you can see in the initial scan posted in the OP, if you literally read the following lines you will see that the speaker who said what the Soul King's purpose was is literally told to be a lie that the main character immediately realizes.

In the next page this is proven true as the main character is shown to be Tokinada who then goes the archives of his Royal Family's library to find out that the speaker who described the Soul King was lying indeed and did not tell the truth.

This character lied, we can't trust any aspect of his statements, they are a liar and can't be believed.

This point is null.

Evidence 2: The Threat of the Quincies Isn't True​

This point was valid in the past, but it turned out to be not true as we learned that the balance of souls was never an issue. As I pointed out in the previous comment, the Royal Family lied to the Shinigami and the world about what the Soul King's purpose and power was. No one besides a select few knew the actual truth; therefore, this point is also null.

There are no balancers and such, this was a lie spread by the Royal Families to hide the truth of the past. None of the Quincy statements and Shinigami balancing statements are true as the Flow of Souls in the Soul Cycle is not real.


As we learn from Yhwach's own words, the balance of souls is not how the Souls maintain the worlds and dimensions. I've

noticed some people don't know how English works and are trying to twist Yhwach's sentence to mean something that it does not. I just so happen to be trying to get a PhD for English in the best English Graduate University in the US (why I'm so busy)! Let's break it down!

"Reio was created to stabilize the Soul Society, where massive numbers of Konpaku pass through!"

-Reio is the subject.

-Reio being created is the verb.

-The complete thought of the sentence is it's purpose, that the Reio was created to stabilize the Soul Society.

However, the sentence is split down the middle by the comma, the purpose of the comma is it's adding additional information to the sentence (this is called a parenthetical expression/comma). It's not really "parenthetical" here as it's moved to the end of the sentence. Thus there is no second comma as it's replaced with the period. The point of this comma and expression is it's placed after what it is providing extra information for... and it's placed after Soul Society.

The complete thought was Reio's creation being for stabilization, the parenthetical comma was additional information about Soul Society's Konpaku. The Konpaku amount has nothing to do with Reio, it has to do with Soul Society.



As we learn from Ichibei's description of the past and Soul King's powers, the Soul King made and moved the dimensions into their positions and maintains them there. The balance of souls was never mentioned. I will post these down below in another point that I explain upon further.

These two characters are literally the most credible sources on the Soul King given Ichibei is the only known character to have been alive during that time and gave us the exposition of the Soul King. Yhwach is stated multiple times to be the Soul King's son and demonstrates knowledge of the Soul King and past others did not.

Reason 3: The Soul King's Stability Done With Alternate Methods Reiatsu/Reiryoku and the Almighty​

It's literally told to us by Ichibei that it's done with the Almighty and Reiatsu/Reiryoku as always with Bleach.

In order to turn this division into a reality, what was required was the power of a man who transcended everything.

...

A man who was later named the Rei-o.

Using his powers of the Almighty as the 'keystone', the five of them created the foundation of a new world. Soul Society, the Material World and Hueco Mundo. Life and death were separated. The Soul Cycle ushered in a new era. (Volume 3 of CFYOW)

There are no alternate methods, we are literally told it was the Soul King's own powers and his Almighty done to make these worlds and keep them in their place, there is no Soul Cycle being manipulated to make the worlds nor maintain them.

This point is null.

Evidence 1: Soul King Is a Lynchpin​

The Soul King sustaining the world's is only ever said to be the case when he is a lynchpin for the world, which would imply that his role as a lynchpin specifically is a special competent for doing it, not his power. - The OP

Well yes and no? Yeah it's special, but it's special because the lynchpin is a state of being, not a power. You must have the power in order to be installed as the lynchpin to sustain the worlds, if you do not have this power then you can not be the lynchpin. I've proven with my quote above from CFYOW Volume 3. It's his powers and his Almighty that performs all the feats. The lynchpin portion was only so he serves his duty to the Bleachverse. Being a lynchpin doesn't grant powers, you need the power to be the lynchpin which are why Ichibei wanted to use Ichigo to serve as the Soul King in case of emergency.

Yhwach is also evidence for this because Yhwach wasn't a similar lynchpin like the Soul King, he absorbed the Soul King's being and became the lynchpin as a side product. Yhwach's body was filled with such immense Reiatsu/Reiryoku that he was passively maintaining the Bleachverse similar to the Soul King had done and even death wasn't extinguishing this Reiatsu/Reiryoku as once again explained by Ichibei. He was similar to the Soul King, but different at the same time:

"But luckily for the boy, Yhwach had all of the Reio's power. That guaranteed that the Soul Society would escape destruction whether or not Ichigo Kurosaki won." - (Volume 1 of CFYOW)

and

"After Kurosaki Ichigo had triumphed over Yhwach, his remains were transported to the Soul King Palace at the hands of Squad Zero soldiers. Hundreds of binding seals were placed around the corpse which still contained a vast amount of Reiryoku even after death, by storing it as the new lynchpin in the Soul King Greater Palace area, the world was spared from collapse." - We Do knot Always Love You

This is why Ichigo was going to be installed as the lynchpin for the Bleachverse... it was explicitly because of the power he was going to attain as Kyoraku literally explains in Volume 1 of CFYOW.

Evidence 2: Soul King's Life Force Means Nothing, Like What Kinda Point is This?​

To counteract the crumbling of the worlds, Ukitake unleashes from inside of him Mimihagi, the right arm of the Soul King who he has now become:
By unleashing Mimihagi, Ukitake stops the crumbling of the worlds:
Mimhagi does this by physically latching itself onto Reio's sliced-apart corpse, replacing him as the Soul King to keep the worlds stabilized. However, this is outright said to only last as long as Ukitake's life lasts:
Mimihagi was able to become a temporary soul king by physically latching itself onto Reio's corpse, stopping the crumbling of the worlds, and it’s outright said that the stabilization of the worlds would only last as long as Ukitake’s lifespan does since Ukitake and Mimihagi became the same entity. This implies that stabilizing the worlds with life force is another possibility to consider here for this. Even moreso, Mimihagi is the right arm of the Soul King, so by physically attaching itself to the one it was once apart of, it temporarily becoming a lynchpin makes sense, even if not done with the soul kings life force.

Where you mess up here is on two points; what Mimihagi's power is and what Ukitake's roll is in supporting Mimihagi.

Ukitake is a vessel for Mimihagi, Mimihagi is powerful unto itself; however, it's attached to Ukitake due to the Kamikake. If Ukitake dies, so does Mimihagi because it no longer has a vessel to exist. This is made worse because Mimihagi was what was keeping Ukitake alive in the first place. Therefore, by no longer using it's power to keep Ukitake alive, Mimihagi did not have much time left either.

Now what was Mimihagi doing that allowed it to keep Ukitake and the Soul King alive? Using it's power of stagnation. As your own scans state, Ukitake was supposed to die as a child, he only lived because Mimihagi's power of stagnation/stillness kept him alive.
When Mimihagi was no longer using it's power on Ukitake is why Ukitake's lifespan shortened dramatically. Mimihagi grabbing onto the Soul King literally stabilized the worlds once more due to it's power and explicitly due to it grabbing onto the Soul King's corpse.
Life force was just a time-limit Mimihagi had to use it's powers to keep the worlds from ending, it's not a method of maintaining the worlds, Mimihagi's power was.

Reason 4: The Soul King Stabilizing The Cosmology Isn't 3-A or Low 2-C (AKA Where IMade Doesn't Know So Go Look at Warren and Arc's Comments For Now)​

I don't know shit about the stabilization page, I just know it was recently made apparently for Bleach. But I can respond to the OP:

So if for example, for stabilization to be 3-A or Low 2-C, the character's sustenance would need to be able to rival the destructive output of a universe being completely destroyed instantly, or immediately. And that's not the case here for Bleach.

We're not shown this because the Soul King dying meant the dimensions and worlds were falling back into their original places at a natural pace. The Soul King did make these worlds and dimensions rather instantly as I showed above where it's described by Ichibei that the Soul King made everything with his Almighty.
As we all saw with Yhwach (who initially has a weaker Almighty), the effects of the Almighty are instant.

That's all I can say about this.

Second Issue: Yhwach Destroying The Worlds He Is Still Destroying the Worlds​

Yeah, he's still destroying the worlds and undoing the Soul King's creation and feat.

Reason 1: Yhwach Doesn't Have a Lack of Power​

He is literally undoing the Soul King's feat. He literally absorbed the Soul King, Mimihagi (who could stabilize the Soul King directly), Ichigo's power (who could not only fight Yhwach, killed the Soul King, and was stated to be a replacement for the Soul King by Ichibei who is the most credible character in Bleach Cosmology). Ichibei even says Yhwach absorbing the Soul King is why the Bleachverse was saved, Yhwach had that power in him to maintain the worlds and destroy them.

Reason 2: Yhwach "Destroying" the Garganta​

Yhwach was going to destroy Garganta, how is this even up for debate? The Soul King made the Garganta and Yhwach was undoing the Soul King's creations.

How is this literally a reason, how is anyone agreeing with this?

Problem 1: Ganju's NOT IS a Credible Source Here​

GANJU IS LITERALLY A SHIBA! HE IS A MEMBER OF THE ROYAL FAMILIES. ROYAL FAMILIES ARE THE ONLY CHARACTERS WHO KNOW OF THE TRUE PAST OF THE BLEACHVERSE AND THE SOUL KING! HE IS MORE CREDIBLE THAN 95% OF THE CAST.

Dude he literally whips out a goddamn map of the Royal Palace dimension and knew about it's layers when that was unknown to pretty much everyone else, no one even knew about a map or such things and he just pulls it out of his ass as if it's common knowledge!

You gotta be embarrassed forgetting that, bruh.

Problem 2: Ganju's Statement Supposedly Being About Yhwach (Doesn't Matter if it Was or Wasn't Because It's Applicable)​

Simple. It's referring to the death of the Soul King causing it. Without this, there is no known evidence of Yhwach being able to destroy the Garganta. Moving on.

What did the Soul King do? Make everything in the Bleachverse, all the worlds and dimensions.

What was happening when he died? It was all being undone since they no longer were being maintained by him.

This is what Ganju was talking about. The Soul King's death meant all of creation was going to be destroyed since it wasn't being maintained.

Why did creation not cease to exist? Because Yhwach became the new Soul King and was maintaining the Bleachverse.
What did Yhwach want to do? Oh yeah, he wanted to undo the Soul King's creation which includes destroying the Garganta since the Soul King made it.

Reason 3: The Silver Arrow Penetrating Yhwach Has Nothing To Do With Tiering​

1) Uryu's Anti-Thesis was stated to be a counter to the Almighty according to an Almighty user.

2) Yhwach himself states that Uryu has an innate power superior to his own.

3) The Still Silver Arrow is stated to be a counter and nullifier to Yhwach's powers which included the Almighty.

4) Anti-Thesis is hax ability that switches the state of two targets, Uryu isn't going to be scaling to Yhwach for his hax and Still Silver being able to work on Yhwach.


Stop talking about this dumb thing, it serves no purpose and waste time. It's a badly written deus-ex machina to defeat Yhwach, but Kubo at least explained why it work, it's just stupid because it was introduced the chapter it was used.

Reason 4: Yhwach Doesn't Stabilize The Worlds​

My previous scans and quotes literally say Yhwach was stabilizing and maintaining the worlds.

This point is null.

Reason 5: Yhwach Destroying The Worlds Isnt 3-A or Low 2-C Destruction AKA Look Back at Reasons 1 and 2 of Second Issue​

Go back to the previous reasons for this one. It's repeated talking points I went over already.

---

I don't think Gremmy, the Hell-Verse, Memories of Nobody, infinite souls, and such matter in this discussion. Just stick to the main topics at hand from the OP.


Why are the Reio Eyeballs even being discussed? They're just the passive Reiryoku that leaked during the process of Yhwach absorbing the Soul King, they have no rating as it's unquantifiable in their amount. Yhwach wasn't even controlling them, it was literally leaked energy of the Soul King that had malice towards the Soul Reapers. It's not a quantifiable thing.

---

End Results:​

Don't use outdated information and information literally contradicted by the source material.

In my actual opinion, I'm not a fan of the current scaling between some keys and characters, but the reasonings in this thread to remove the ratings aren't valid reasonings. I do think the scaling can use some cleaning up.

I say try again, or another thread be done to discuss the outcome of Viz's translations of Volume 3 which may turn the entire thing upside on it's head or make it even bigger than we thought. It comes out in March. Just wait a month and a half so we can all do this again.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I was going to respond to Kukui but IMade kinda hit all the points so to avoid overwhelming you I’ll let you respond to IMade before I comment again.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

Oh I forgot to add this, it's a scan of Haschwalth stating how Almighty relates to strength.
If you aren't strong enough, you can't use the Almighty.
Plus, you need Reiatsu and Reiryoku still in Bleach.

This is why Haschwalth using the Almighty had an inferior version to Yhwach.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@IMadeThisOn8-1-2017

Thank you very much for being able to respond here. Seriously, regardless of the sides at play here, I appreciate you being able to help with this and i am sorry if this has been troublesome for you IRL. I know the feeling as I will be starting school tomorrow myself again haha.

But really, thank you for responding, good luck in school and I will formulate a response later.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Ovy brings up this so I’ll drop it here:


I know what he is arguing with the eyeballs, I am questioning how he is arguing the exact opposite for something else.

Kukui’s eye argument: Any part of 4D has to be 4D which scales everyone else to 4D.

Arc’s quake argument: The quakes are effecting multiple universal space times which is 4D.

Kukui’s quake counter: The quakes are an unquantifiable level of 4D but since we don’t know what level of 4D so we can’t give a tier.

TLDR: How does one go from saying “X must be 4D because 4D is always 4D” to saying “Y is 4D but we can’t say it’s 4D”????

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

**** 4D it genuinely doen't matter how many Ds something is without feats.

 

[Damage3245]

A response is being written up, that is good to see, but regardless of the outcome I do believe that the most sensible course of action at the end of this thread is to temporarily remove the upgrades and revisit the topic when the Viz translation of the 3rd novel comes out.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

A response is being written up, that is good to see, but regardless of the outcome I do believe that the most sensible course of action at the end of this thread is to temporarily remove the upgrades and revisit the topic when the Viz translation of the 3rd novel comes out.

There's enough info we do have from translations which is why the ratings were put in the first place. Disagree.

4-A and 5-A was put in using these same translations, it's realizing that the cosmology is bigger than we first interpreted that lead to the 3-A and Low 2-C.

 

[Damage3245]

Well, if it is only a matter of a month and a half away, I don't see the harm in removing the ratings until a proper discussion can be had.

While a counter to what has been posted so far is being drawn up, I will lock the thread as it was before and open it when a post is ready.

 

[AKM sama]

I've noticed some people don't know how English works and are trying to twist Yhwach's sentence to mean something that it does not. I just so happen to be trying to get a PhD for English in the best English Graduate University in the US (why I'm so busy)! Let's break it down!

Well, you didn't need to dox yourself (if that's true) and play it like your language comprehension is better than everybody else's, even though we are all fully capable of understanding basic English here. It's insulting to everybody and a really unneeded remark.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Alright, here's my counters against IMade for what im assuming is the final counters to be made before staff come to give agreement/disagreement.

Counters for IMade’s Argument:​

Points To Ignore:​

Mimihagi Stuff​

• I'm going to ignore this, again, since I'm guessing IMade did not actually read through the entire thread’s counters and just plainly dealt with the original post’s points for the most part. Otherwise, he would have seen that I agreed with Mimihagi being irrelevant when I countered Warren’s argument.

Soul King Being a Lynchpin

I'm also ignoring this point because my counters through the entire thread never had anything to do with this from the original post. Both this and the Mimihagi points were seemingly very minor supporting points that do not matter compared to the main arguments for the downgrade, so my own counters are not using them.

Points I Disagree With: ​

The Soul King’s Passive Feat “Actually Still Exists” ​

Alright. I appreciate IMade taking the time to finally give a response here, but...I have to question how much of the thread he’s actually read and how much he’s actually kept up in reading this thread.

IMade’s counter argument here starts off by quoting Warren’s counter argument. A counter argument that I already dealt with, at length, very early into this thread. Or was this just not seen?

Weakened Reio Fitting The New Stabilization Requirements

Requirement 2 is the only requirement in the new standards that Weakened Reio arguably fits in with, and even that's shaky as I will address in my response to Arc after this.

It is not mentioned “numerous times” that he sustains the worlds. It's mentioned ONCE, through a statement that’s open to more than one interpretation of what it means. Adding to that, if it’s said “numerous times”, then those numerous examples should be very easy to be gathered and SHOWN here. But the lack of evidence should be telling enough on this part of the argument.

That, and Warren just completely missed the points about the quincies and the official English translation from CFYOW stating point blank that the Soul King stabilizes the universal flow of souls.

Counter Point: “Creation began falling apart as soon as the Soul King died”

Again, im going to ask if the original post was read entirely or not. This was, again, already addressed in great detail in the original post too, and was explained why that doesn’t matter here. At all. The fact of the matter is, creation STARTED to fall apart immediately. But it did not HAPPEN and FINISH immediately, which is a blatant requirement for 3-A / Low 2-C feats. Look at the original post's point on this again guys:


It doesn't matter when creation begins to fall apart here. What matters is how long it takes for creation to be destroyed and the extent of it.

Counter Points:

“Nowhere was there any mention that there was any time to try and fix this problem”
“The CFYOW novel says, the one you showed, that the world will “crumble immediately”. Not “START crumbling immediately”, but crumble immediately."

Okay. Les try and not turn this into a "Color of the sky is stated red vs Sky is shown as blue" discussion because outright ignoring what the source material clearly shows us is the only possible way this argument is going to have any standing here.

We don't care about it “not being mentioned”, nor do we “need a mention”, because WE OUTRIGHT SEE the destruction unfolding after the death of the Soul King. Why do we need to pivot to asking for clarification on the timeframe of the destruction? Why pivot to avoiding what the manga can, and does, show us? It is shown to not be immediate. The destruction across the worlds is happening slowly, over an extensively long timeframe, with the worlds all being affected differently from each other with the destruction being absolutely NO WHERE close to the scale of 3-A, let alone Low 2-C. The Soul Society shook violently and had buildings falling over. Hueco Mundo did the same thing more or less. And The Living World literally has no more than a MILD long lasting quake where not a single thing was getting destroyed, which was even noted to be the case ON-PANEL. Trying to get this argument accepted relies on an unsubstantiated reverse burden of proof that the original post already fulfilled, and strongly. The destruction by no means was going to be completed in the span of seconds or minutes to show destruction on that scale was happening in that instance. To ignore this point would be to completely ignore what the manga shows us and rely on statements whose interpretations do not at all align with what’s being depicted and given in the source material. And that, for a lack of a better word, is being intellectually dishonest.

And on that note about the novel statement, a small reminder should be pointed out here that the "Cant Fear Your Own World" novel is considered secondary canon on this site. The manga for Bleach is the source material, and is 100% the primary canon source to be taking evidence from. The very fact that a novel statement about the worlds "likely crumbling immediately" comes from a source of lesser canonicity, and doesn't align with the depiction that the primary canon shows us, should be telling enough to everyone on both sides on why these statements have 0 bearing. And are ultimately irrelevant to use as a counter argument against this downgrade.

Counter-Point: “Reiatsu is the pressure of their level of energy, and thus, scales to their strength.”

This also isn’t enough to sustain this scaling to AP/Durability (not that it really matters). Even if the sustaining is done with Reiatsu, the fact that it’s being focused into sustaining the cosmology as proclaimed, would mean that the reiatsu when used for anything else isn't anywhere close to as strong and would need more evidence to prove that amount of power can be used all at once towards attack potency and durability. This is actually precisely why it’s outlined as a requirement in the new standards in the first place, since sustenance feats are assumed by default to not scale.

After all, if non god tiers are able to fight against and dispose of Yhwach’s and Reio’s Reiatsu when going against them, it becomes a fairly large anti feat against Reiatsu being used at Low 2-C levels when not used for sustenance due to these major inconsistencies. And these non god tiers includes a CHILD mind you.

First Evidence: Reio's Eyeball Creatures

When in the middle of devouring the Soul King, Yhwach releases torrents of Reio's reiatsu in the form of eyeball creatures and sends them to attack Shinigami:

Shinigami as high into Captain class and lower than assistant captain class were able to fight against these creatures made by Reio's power. Easily.

Sui-Feng receives no much as a scratch against an entire gang of them when using her Bankai, and Omaeda smashes through them with no trouble either.

Hisagi, Ikkaku and Yumichika can attack these creatures and not get wiped out by being so much as near them.

Byakuya literally blasts away an entire wave of these creatures with extreme ease using Senbon-Zakura. The strength of these creatures, who are supposed to be made by Low 2-C Reiatsu, are treated as blatant fodder compared to these guys, making the disadvantage in numbers and an attrition battle the only difficulty in wiping them all out. Which is why Aizen was used to dispose of them all at the same time in one shot.

Thats not where this ends either.

Second Evidence: Yhwach's Reiatsu Remnants

By the end of the Bleach manga, remnants of Yhwach's reiatsu appear in the Soul Society. Byakuya and other captains go to dispose of it:

But before they get the chance to, Ichigo's son Kazui Kurosaki destroys the last remnant of Yhwach's power that also appeared in The World of The Living, confirmed by Aizen:

This supposed Low 2-C Reiatsu is shown, one way or another, to be countered by people who have absolutely no business touching this tier of power, and aren't acknowledged to despite the upgrades. This leaves a great deal of skepticism on this argument, much less how scaling is supposed to be done in comparison. Is this Reiatsu simply not Low 2-C when used offensively? Are Low 2-C non-god tiers a thing now for fighting against Low 2-C power without so much as getting a scratch? Low 2-C Captains? Low 2-C Lieutenants? Or biggest of all, Low 2-C Kazui? How can they so much as even stand in the general presence of Low 2-C energy...without being Low 2-C themselves?

TL;DR- This entire part of the argument, no offense, amounts to pretty much nothing to argue against the main actual point from the original post. The main point is that the destruction of the worlds when no longer supported by the Soul King isn't 3-A or Low 2-C as the destruction isn’t immediate, it happens over an extensively long timeframe, and is just unquantifiable at the most. To say otherwise is to take statements over a blatant portrayal, which is being intellectually dishonest and going against the source material. The Soul King fits almost none of the newly created stability standards besides arguably Requirement 2, and that’s a stretch itself since, more or less, there’s major inconsistencies with the reiatsu scaling to Low 2-C offensively as non god tiers are capable of fighting against both the Soul King and Yhwach’s Reiatsu, which suggests that their Reiatsu isn’t anywhere close to that strong when used offensively, assuming the stability feat is Low 2-C to begin with.

A clear choice needs to be made here. Either these several characters get a Low 2-C upgrade, or this Reiatsu being Low 2-C when used offensively is too inconsistent, which as a result, invalidates Yhwach using reiatsu that wouldn't be strong enough to destroy the worlds.

These counters against the Soul King’s passive feat still fitting within our new standards on Stability feats were already countered early in, and were explained many times over on why they do not fit in the new standards.

TL;DR- Quoting a counter argument that was debunked very very early in and leaving it at that isn’t a strong start to this.

Can’t Fear Your Own World Novel Statement On Flow of Souls​

First things first, the use of volume three translations of the novel. The original post already made a point in addressing the fact that the official translations for CFYOW’s volume 3 novel will not be made available until the incoming months. This novel scan on the universal flow of souls is from the officially translated version of the novel’s 2nd volume. Why are Volume 3’s non-official translations beig used as a supporting counter point against this?

Even despite that, the flow of souls argument from the original post only used this statement from CFYOW as supporting evidence and not the main evidence, so it being invalidated by any chance does not deem the whole point or later points invalidated, even if this lying argument checks out.

TL;DR- This part of the counter argument doesn’t mean or do much. Its using material from a part of the novel that has yet to be officially translated, its going under the assumption that a character lying automatically devalues anything they say permanently, and even if this novel statement can’t be used, the main argument for the flow of souls only uses it as a supporting point, not as main evidence. There is more to use.

The Threat of the Quincies “Isn't True”​

Finally, I will give credit here for someone actually giving an attempt to counter this point that the original post layed out and wasn't countered for several pages. That said, this evidence doesn’t change a thing about this point either, because this scan has absolutely nothing to do with the threat of the quincies, or the roles Shinigami played as balancers.

The scans here from the counter argument are only addressing the role of the Soul King himself being a lie told by the royal family, that him stabilizing the flow of souls is a lie told by them. The argument from IMade itself says this is the case as I will quote:

"As I pointed out in the previous comment, the Royal Family lied to the Shinigami and the world about what the Soul King's purpose and power was. No one besides a select few knew the actual truth; therefore, this point is also null." -IMade

This lie told from the Royal has to specifically do with the soul king’s role and what his power does. Let's assume for a moment that this is the case. What does this have to do with Quinicies threatening the balance of souls, and Shinigami being balancers, as told consistently and numerously in the series? The Soul King stabilizing the flow of souls being a lie does not mean that the Quincies destroying souls and removing them from the cycle permanently (which we know is obviously true) was also a lie. These are 2 completely and entirely separate points disjointed together under speculation that doesn't use actual supporting evidence.

We know that Quincies can permanently remove souls from the soul cycle as they eradicate hollows entirely. We know that Shinigami act as balancers to monitor and maintain the balance of souls between the Soul Society and World of the Living. Sending dead souls to the Soul Society to live there, and then re-sending them back into the Living World as living beings. The lie told by the Royal Family, even if that is the case, has absolutely nothing to do with this. It has to do with the Soul King and what he does in the Bleach Cosmology.

There is no specific evidence brought here from these novel scans that explicitly says the Quincies threatening the soul cycle, a consistent and major plot point in the series, was a lie fabricated by anyone.

TL;DR- This evidence does not amount to really anything either in the end. Even if the argument on this being a lie is true, this doesn’t have anything to do with what the Quincies were threatening to do to the Soul Cycle. The lie told here has to do with information related to the Soul King, a separate matter.

Yhwach’s Stability Statement​

This argument about exposition and trying to “twist” Yhwach’s statement, again, is not the case here, because the original post was never assuming anything on this. It was pointing out that the statement has another possible interpretation to it instead of it only being the highest one that's taken right now. And here’s why.

The structure of the statement that IMade tries to break down here for us means very little, to nothing, because the original post’s point on this part of the argument was talking about why the massive flow on Konpaku was even mentioned in the first place. It being “additional information” is a copout to go against the other viable interpretation, that the Soul King stabilizes the soul society through the massive numbers of Konpaku passing through it. If the Konpaku were not a factor into this sustenance statement for Reio, why would Yhwach bring it up in the first place? This is what the original argument, from my PoV, was addressing or was trying to address. It wouldn't have been brought up if it wasn’t an actual relevant factor in this, yet it was.

Even then, Yhwach’s statement again is not the only thing used by the original post to go against the Soul King’s passive feat.

The Soul King's Stability Done With Reiatsu/Reiryoku & The Almighty​

No offense to IMade, but this point is just a complete non factor to what the original post said from the very beginning. This part of the argument had to do with the Soul King stabilizing the worlds, not creating them. And we all already know the Soul King split the original universe with the Almighty, what does it have to do with the sustenance feat here? Why was this mentioned?

The stability being done with Reiatsu isn’t mentioned here anyway, and the original post and later counters already made very extensive arguments on why it being down with Reiatsu doesn’t stop the downgrade from happening.

TL;DR- This counter point here is entirely pointless.

Yhwach “Doesn't” Have a Lack of Power​

Okay. IMade doesn’t seem to actually understand what he didn’t try addressing earlier, so i’ll explain this once again.

Yhwach absorbing the Soul King, Mimihagi, and Ichigo’s power is completely and utterly irrelevant to this point. Why? Because their power is neither 3-A or Low 2-C without the sustenance feat being 3-A or Low 2-C in the first place. This was explained several times, and I will quote the most recent clarification I gave to Arc earlier before you responded.

Lets go under the idea that the Weakened Soul King's feat is no longer quantifiable for 3-A or Low 2-C for a second, okay?

With it being unquantifiable, that makes the Weakened Soul King's tier unquantifiable because the feat no longer qualifies for 3-A or Low 2-C. Which means, Yhwach being > the Weakened Soul King and him absorbing his, Mimihagi's, and Ichigo's Quincy/Hollow powers are also unquantifiable, not 3-A or Low 2-C. Which means, Peak Yhwach by the time of the arc's conclusion doesnt get to 3-A or Low 2-C anymore with amps. Peak Yhwach's tier would be unquantifiable when going off of that.

The Reio creatures and Yhwach's Reiatsu being dealt with by non god tiers, and the arrow, are further supporting points, but the stability feat being invalidated was the original post's main core argument for downgrading Yhwach's stats.

With those factored in, the only evidence left now that would support Yhwach's statements, without any supporting feats or supporting scaling being factored in, would purely be the statements themselves.

Thats why, for Yhwach, it would come down to if whether or not statements as the only evidence would be good enough evidence for the god tiers to climb these number of tiers all at once:

• High 6-A
• 5-C
• Low 5-B
• 5-B
• 5-A
• High 5-A
• Low 4-C
• 4-C
• 4-B
• 4-A
• 3-C
• 3-B
• 3-A
• High 3-A
• Low 2-C

More or less, 15 whole different tiers. All given just by the use of statements and no other evidence. The people who are for the downgrade dont think statements are viable enough evidence for an upgrade as drastic as this.

Yhwach absorbing their power, which would be unquantifiable, only means Peak Yhwach by the time of the arc’s conclusion does not get amped by 3-A / Low 2-C power anymore, he would be amped by unquantifiable levels of power. Meaning, he doesn't reach either tier with this method.

TL;DR- Yhwach would indeed have a lack of power and supporting feats to do his feat, and IMade himself ignored the argument on why the sustenance feat itself is not quantifiable under the new standards, so his word on this line of argumentation should be less credibitable by that alone. This point is entirely null.

Ganju’s Credibility​

I was going to originally respond to this in that response Arc made about this small point specifically, but I might as well sum it up here seeing as we're reaching the threads conclusion.

Just to correct you IMade, you do know that the map to the Royal Palace wasn’ aquired by Ganju in the first place, right? It was given to his sister, Kukaku Shiba? The literal clan leader of the Shiba Family, who would quite very obviously be an exception compared to her younger brother? Zero Squad gave her the map, who then gave it to Ganju, which ironically speaks to the point that not just any run of the mill person gets access to very secretive information like this on a whim all because of their royal lineage. But that's a minor point I thought would be good to correct you on real quick.

Yhwach Planning To Destroy The Garganta​

Thank you for, what i'm assuming to be, conceding to the original posts point about Ganju’s statement, credible or not, referring to the death of the Soul King and not Yhwach’s plans. But no, that kinda doesn’t make it “still applicable”. Because Yhwach “planning” to destroy everything, which by your words has to include Garganta, isn’t how we measure and give large feats like this here. What matters at the end of the day isn’t character intention, its capability and confirmation. What matters at the end of the day is the character being confirmed to do what's claimed of them, not what the character themselves intend to do. And before you try and formulate a response to this point, i’ll just direct you to this quote on an earlier counter I already made:

This is the last thing that I will say here on this point about “planning” arguments coming from characters.

Character Intentions vs Burden of Proof​

I'll be honest here. Our standards for requiring concrete evidence, which are not perfect by any sense of the word and have already been set on a bar with new lows, has been lowered even further to levels where the intention of the character and statements by themselves are somehow solid enough evidences to accept upgrades so drastically large like this one. And that's a problem.

There was a time where our standards were held to a much, much higher level of scrutiny than this and required much more evidence and supportive backing in order to make a notable change in profiles, whether that be a large change in hax abilities or bumping characters to being several tiers above what they were previously. Now we go with accepting things that go anywhere from characters lacking tier 7 feats, having genuine anti-feats and a large lack in supporting feats to being bumped to Multiversal level on the basis of what could very easily be considered flowery language or statements lacking in the credibility department. This, however, was at least manageable where arguments have some kind of a basis behind them, right or wrong. But now, we’re dealing with "intention arguments" where people are accepting intentions from what a character has for an objective as core evidence.

If far more concrete evidence than this have led to characters getting only a “Possibly” or “Likely” rating for upgrades on this site, it should make an upgrade like this one here, under this premise, very questionable. It’s almost as if people have forgotten the concept of what extraordinary evidence actually means, because this most certainly doesn’t fall under that definition. Climbing tiers means you need to give more evidence the higher you go, and a character's intentions for what they want to do don’t mean they are guaranteed to be able to do that. If this evidence is used purely as a supporting argument? Then sure, that is solid to back main evidence up. But this evidence being used as the main core reason to keep an upgrade in its entirety? Without any supporting feats, viable scaling, or factors that can actually be considered concrete evidence? That just doesn’t seem to be concrete enough to give a proper rating and it needs to make us more self-aware of what should and what shouldnt be good enough to give upgrades here.

The Silver Arrow Penetrating Yhwach and Uryu’s Antithesis​

Once again, you kinda need to be following along with everything happening in the thread and not what the original post says only. I already gave counters against Uryu using Antithesis, quoted here:

Silver Arrow Being Unreliable​

The argument of Uryu using the Antithesis to fire the arrow at Yhwach is headcanon. We know the Antithesis as a whole is a viable counter to the Almighty, but that hardly matters when there’s no direct evidence that Uryu did use Antithesis against Yhwach, especially when he couldn’t have used it against Yhwach.

Uryu’s Antithesis’s abilities work by being able to completely reverse anything that already happened between two targets. Pay close attention to the word TWO.

For Warren’s argument on the Antithesis being used to make sense, Uryu would have needed to have another target present with him to shoot first before reversing what happened to that target onto Yhwach. And there’s no evidence of this being present in that moment. This would be stacking an assumption, on-top of another assumption, in an attempt to counter the silver arrow. Without a second target being proved to be involved, it would be impossible for Uryu to use Antithesis on the arrow and then on Yhwach. As a smaller nitpick, this argument also assumes the Antithesis can transport physical objects when reversing the events, despite Uryu never displaying a feat like this with Antithesis. Going off this, that's stacking 3 assumptions on top of each other.

Adding to the aforementioned points, going off the “crumbs” of the scene, we see smoke coming out of Uryu’s quincy bow immediately after Yhwach is hit with the arrow, while facing Yhwach's direction:

This strongly goes against the Antithesis argument and supports the arrow being fired normally. Which anyone under normal circumstances would assume that Uryu just up and fired the bow at Yhwach. You’d have to go through a number of different mental gymnastics to deny this being the case, just as the argument on positioning does.

A viable and less argumentative assumption to make, instead of making leaps in logic on Uryu's position, is to blame Kubo for terrible paneling. The depiction of the arrow is displayed as Uryu shooting Yhwach from the back, which has to imply he’s behind Yhwach to do that. The arrow being portrayed as shooting Yhwach from behind, when the implication from Warren’s argument is supposed to be Uryu being in front of Yhwach, makes no sense.

TL;DR- Uryu didn't use Antithesis here, he couldn’t have used Antithesis and no direct evidence says he did. The more viable explanation here is that he just shot Yhwach normally with his bow, which has direct support and takes far less assumptions to make.

And you're still missing the point of why this was brought up as an anti-feat to begin with. The arrow nulling Almighty (which we know is a PIS / D.E.M) has nothing to do with the fact that the arrow physically penetrated him in order to do that. The arrow would need to be as strong as Yhwach in order for it to null his abilities.

Personally speaking, I'm fine with dropping with the Silver Arrow point too, but i'm clarifying why the original post brought this up. Because either the arrow is Low 2-C in strength in order to physically penetrate Yhwach, or it's not Low 2-C and it's an anti feat.

Yhwach Stabilizing The Worlds​

I know they said he stablized them, and they are irrelevant because of one simple thing that's been repeated this whole thread. Feats >>> Statements. That's how this works. And Yhwach stabilizing the worlds isn’t consistent with those statements.

He was killed 2x against Ichigo, the first time having to literally rewrite his death with the Almighty in order to save himself from dying. Which means, even if only for a moment, that was a real death. And the dimensional quaking did not restart despite that happening when Reio died and when Mimihagi was absorbed. If Yhwach dies for even a moment, and the quaking does not restart, how is he stabilizing them? No one has yet to actually counter this.

And as said many times before, this wouldn’t matter much anyway because Yhwach’s own stability feat gets invalidated just like the Soul King’s feat does. One way or another, the stability feat from Yhwach does nothing either.

Reio Eyeball Monsters​

They’re being discussed because the gang of people who side with you against the downgrades don’t actually seem to fully understand the tier they are trying to defend, Low 2-C. Low 2-C was explained many many times over in this thread THAT cannot be quantifiably divided up in power like lower tiers can because it's dealing with infinite energy. Divided up power will always remain Low 2-C, no matter what. It becomes weaker by unquantifiable extents the more it is divided up, but it still remains Low 2-C. That's how the tier works and that's how tiers above it in our tiering system works.

Meaning, as was said several times, if you argue the Weakened Soul King’s tier to be Low 2-C, then the Reio eyeball monsters created by his Low 2-C reiatsu are still going to be Low 2-C in power no matter how much weaker they are than the Weakened Soul King’s total amount of power. Which still generates anti feats and inconsistencies with non god tiers fighting against the Low 2-C reiatsu.

Almighty Scaling to AP​

Sorry IMade, but once again, this was already addressed and in very big detail in previous counters:

Almighty Scaling To AP​

Large misconception, and inconsistency, here with this. Nothing in Jugrams statement means the Almighty scales to Yhwach’s Attack Potency here.

First Issue: The Misconception​

Where in this statement does Jugram say the Almighty needs strength to be used in the first place? That's not what was said at all. The Almighty IS able to be used before Yhwach’s 9 years of restoring his power is up. What ISN’T able to happen is the Almighty being freely controlled. Jugram explicitly says that the Almighty could have gone out of control and absorbed the power of the Sternritters if Yhwach opened his eyes earlier, implying that Yhwach does not need his strength restored to activate Almighty to begin with, but that he does need his strength in order to freely wield it. This would have to be the case or else “going out of control” wouldn't be a viable possibility to begin with since the ability wouldn't be able to activate under this logic. Your arguments going under the idea that Almighty can’t be “used” in the sense that it cant be used at all without restored power, which is wrong.

Second Problem: Scaling to Attack Potency​

How is this supposed to mean Almighty scales to Yhwach’s attack potency? This isn’t as if Yhwach’s raw power is being put into Almighty when using it. What’s said is that for Ywhach to even open his eyes without losing control, he has to be strong, but that does not mean that the Almighty itself buffs his strength, nor does it mean Yhwach’s AP is regularly put into whatever the Almighty does. His raw power had to be strong enough, right before opening his eyes, to have control over the Almighty. Having the stats to control the Almighty is a prerequisite to using the power, not a result of activating the power itself. In other words, it is a caveat to using the Almighty, not a benefit from using it. It is a weakness, which is basic common sense for any character with an ability or technique and needing enough strength to, you know, use it properly.

This can be compared to an analogy of why this type of scaling doesnt work. This is like a child trying to carry a rocket launcher. He won’t be able to do it at his age, but when he grows up, he’ll be able to carry the rocket launcher and shoot out 8-B missles. Doesn’t mean the dude is anywhere near 8-B after growing up when doing that. It just means he became strong enough to support and fire the 8-B weapon.

And for what its worth, we also dont do this kind of scaling here for other series with similar circumstances. Is Deku now 7-B because he needed to be physically strong enough to wield and handle One for All, despite not being anywhere close to All Might's level when first using it? Is Roshi now 5-C reguarly because he needs to use up all of his energy to use Mafuba, a seal that can fail even when Low 2-C Goku tried using it without dying? Is Nagato 6-C regularly for having and Rinnegan, something that requires massively large quantities of chakra, and is something even above Nagato's individual power?

Third Problem: HUGE Scaling Inconsistencies​

Adding to the above, this creates HUGE scaling issues that makes the upgrades even more of a mess than already seen as.

Lets go under the assumption that Weakened Reio is still Low 2-C. Almighty Yhwach is treated by us as being above Weakened Reio. This gives big problems, because going by the logic of this argument, Low 2-C power in general is needed to use the Almighty, since if Almighty Yhwach is >>> Weakened Soul King, who you guys still consider to be Low 2-C, and Almighty scales to Yhwach's attack potency, that would mean Yhwach was always Low 2-C and Yhwach regularly is Low 2-C as he would need Low 2-C power to wield Almighty in the first place.

This then scales to a lot of different characters. Yamamoto would be scaling to Low 2-C since he and Yhwach 1000 of years prior to the series could not kill each other and Yhwach considered Prime Yamamoto a beast; The 5 War Potentials would arguably scale based off the very fact that Yhwach was concerned with them and made the Sternritter be wary of them, which makes no sense unless they were Low 2-C themselves for Yhwach to see them as a threat; On top of that, Ichibei would at least be the one member of Zero Squad who’d be scaling to Low 2-C since he outright fights Yhwach before and after the Almighty appeared without getting instantaneously stomped.

After that comes Jugram once again; Jugram was able to use Almighty in Yhwach’s place, which would mean he would need Low 2-C power to even remotely wield the Almighty; And no, it being a weaker Almighty does not change the fact that he’d need to be in the same realm of Low 2-C power as Yhwach is, or else using the Almighty is impossible from the start for a non Low 2-C. A weaker Almighty just means Jugram is a weaker Low 2-C than Yhwach is, so Low 2-C Jugram for using Almighty on some level now comes from this.

And after that, we get Low 2-C Uryu and likely Low 2-C Sternritters; Uryu lasted against Almighty Jugram, and made Jugram struggle afterwards, so he’d scale, and Sternritters likely scale to either Jugram or Uryu if memory serves me right.

And after that, we get Low 2-C Captains and Assistant Captains who'd be Low 2-C for fighting the Sternritters .

Very easily, this logic results in over 20+ characters magically scaling to the upgrades, which creates inconsistency after inconsistency with every passing moment and makes this much more outlierish. And this is all on the premise that Almighty scales to Yhwach’s attack potency, which as explained, shouldn't be scaling.

So a choice needs to be made. Either the Almighty doesn’t scale to attack potency and is treated as pure hax, or many characters end up scaling to the upgrades to make this incredibly inconsistent.

Overall TL;DR:​

I appreciate IMade getting a chance to give a response after all this time of waiting before getting to staff members giving judgement, but ultimately, it is still the same result as it was before. The downgrade argument still remains largely unrefuted. His responses and input have changed nothing about the downgrades main arguments and main points, besides debunking at best minor points that were already dropped throughout the 4 pages this thread has spanned through, and minor points that most certainly don’t weaken the downgrade’s argument. His response here does not actually address the main core arguments on why AKM made this downgrade in the first place.

The main arguments being that, one way or another, the stability feat used to support the upgrades is invalid. Regardless of whether the Soul King maintains the flow of souls, or maintains the actual universes, and whether or not Reiatsu is used to maintain the worlds, it’s not a 3-A or Low 2-C quantifiable feat to be used as many counter arguments here have explained and expressed why it isn't over and over and over again. The destruction of the worlds when no longer supported by the Soul King is not 3-A or Low 2-C as they get destroyed over an extensive timeframe, where nothing dimensionally gets destroyed, the worlds all get effected differently, and that doesnt align with our newly made standards to scrutinize sustenance feats more. IMade himself even admits to not understanding this part of the argument on why the stability feat doesn’t count as an acceptable feat anymore, which should show just how much his argument counters and what it doesn’t counter. Much of IMade’s argument involves points that were discussed and countered to death throughout these 4 pages in the thread already, which should be somewhat telling on the opposition’s credibility on said counter arguments.

Point about the Almighty scaling to Attack Potency? Addressed already on why it doesn’t. Point about the Antithesis? Addressed already on why it wasn’t used. Point about the Reio Creatures not being Low 2-C in power? Addressed already on why they would and why the opposition doesn’t seem to understand how Low 2-C works to argue against it. The list can grow from there on what's already been addressed here. Even the very beginning of IMade’s counter argument here starts out by quoting points from Warren’s counter argument, an argument that I already countered very early into this thread as my first set of counters. Adding even more to this is the fact that other inconsistencies, like Ichigo’s son destroying Reiatsu that would still be Low 2-C, or the inconsistent scaling the Almighty brings by being argued as AP, were not addressed by IMade’s counter arguments either.

Ultimately, a lot of what was brought into this thread in favor of the downgrades was either ignored by IMade, not understood by IMade, or both. And it's due to these very things that IMades responses here have not changed much of anything, just as previous counter arguments to defend the upgrades have not been able to. And thats why its imperative, for people reading and voting in this thread all around, to analyze everything from both sides in full.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

IMade has said he won't be able to partake again until the weekend so allow me to defend his points for him in the mean time.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

What else needs to be said though? Im going to be honest, but at this point, we are doing nothing but bringing looped and circular arguments.

Ive had to quote and repeat points I already gave several times again in these recent counters. If no other totally new points are to be added here, then this is the time for other staff to come and give input on which side they agree / disagree with.