Alright, here's my counters against IMade for what im assuming is the final counters to be made before staff come to give agreement/disagreement.
Counters for IMade’s Argument:
Points To Ignore:
Mimihagi Stuff
- I'm going to ignore this, again, since I'm guessing IMade did not actually read through the entire thread’s counters and just plainly dealt with the original post’s points for the most part. Otherwise, he would have seen that I agreed with Mimihagi being irrelevant when I countered Warren’s argument.
Soul King Being a Lynchpin
I'm also ignoring this point because my counters through the entire thread never had anything to do with this from the original post. Both this and the Mimihagi points were seemingly very minor supporting points that do not matter compared to the main arguments for the downgrade, so my own counters are not using them.
Points I Disagree With:
The Soul King’s Passive Feat “Actually Still Exists”
Alright. I appreciate IMade taking the time to finally give a response here, but...I have to question how much of the thread he’s actually read and how much he’s actually kept up in reading this thread.
IMade’s counter argument here starts off by quoting Warren’s counter argument. A counter argument that
I already dealt with, at length, very early into this thread. Or was this just not seen?
Weakened Reio Fitting The New Stabilization Requirements
Requirement 2 is the only requirement in the new standards that Weakened Reio arguably fits in with, and even that's shaky as I will address in my response to Arc after this.
It is not mentioned “numerous times” that he sustains the worlds. It's mentioned
ONCE, through a statement that’s
open to more than one interpretation of what it means. Adding to that, if it’s said “numerous times”, then those numerous examples should be very easy to be gathered and SHOWN here. But the lack of evidence should be telling enough on this part of the argument.
That, and Warren just completely missed the points about the quincies and the official English translation from CFYOW stating point blank that the Soul King stabilizes the universal flow of souls.
Counter Point: “Creation began falling apart as soon as the Soul King died”
Again, im going to ask if the original post was read entirely or not. This was, again, already addressed in great detail in the original post too, and was explained why that doesn’t matter here. At all. The fact of the matter is, creation
STARTED to fall apart immediately. But it did not
HAPPEN and FINISH immediately, which is a blatant requirement for 3-A / Low 2-C feats. Look at the original post's point on this again guys:
It doesn't matter when creation
begins to fall apart here. What matters is
how long it takes for creation to be destroyed and
the extent of it.
Counter Points:
“Nowhere was there any mention that there was any time to try and fix this problem”
“The CFYOW novel says, the one you showed, that the world will “crumble immediately”. Not “START crumbling immediately”, but crumble immediately."
Okay. Les try and not turn this into a
"Color of the sky is stated red vs Sky is shown as blue" discussion because outright ignoring what the source material clearly
shows us is the only possible way this argument is going to have any standing here.
We don't care about it “not being mentioned”, nor do we “need a mention”, because
WE OUTRIGHT SEE the destruction unfolding after the death of the Soul King. Why do we need to pivot to asking for clarification on the timeframe of the destruction? Why pivot to avoiding what the manga can,
and does, show us? It is
shown to
not be immediate. The destruction across the worlds is happening slowly, over an extensively long timeframe, with the worlds all being affected differently from each other with the destruction being absolutely
NO WHERE close to the scale of 3-A, let alone Low 2-C. The Soul Society shook violently and had buildings falling over. Hueco Mundo did the same thing more or less. And The Living World literally has no more than a
MILD long lasting quake where not a single thing was getting destroyed, which was even noted to be the case
ON-PANEL. Trying to get this argument accepted relies on an unsubstantiated reverse burden of proof that the original post already fulfilled, and strongly. The destruction by no means was going to be completed in the span of seconds or minutes to show destruction on that scale was happening in that instance. To ignore this point would be to completely ignore what the manga shows us and rely on statements whose interpretations do not at all align with what’s being depicted and given in the source material. And that, for a lack of a better word, is being
intellectually dishonest.
And on that note about the novel statement, a small reminder should be pointed out here that the "Cant Fear Your Own World" novel is considered
secondary canon on this site. The manga for Bleach is the source material, and is 100% the primary canon source to be taking evidence from. The very fact that a novel statement about the worlds "likely crumbling immediately" comes from a source of lesser canonicity, and doesn't align with the depiction that the primary canon shows us, should be telling enough to everyone on both sides on why these statements have 0 bearing. And are ultimately irrelevant to use as a counter argument against this downgrade.
Counter-Point: “Reiatsu is the pressure of their level of energy, and thus, scales to their strength.”
This also isn’t enough to sustain this scaling to AP/Durability (not that it really matters). Even if the sustaining is done with Reiatsu, the fact that it’s being focused into sustaining the cosmology as proclaimed, would mean that the reiatsu when used
for anything else isn't anywhere close to as strong and would need more evidence to prove that amount of power can be used all at once towards attack potency and durability. This is actually precisely why it’s outlined as a requirement in the new standards in the first place, since sustenance feats are assumed by default to
not scale.
After all, if
non god tiers are able to fight against and dispose of Yhwach’s and Reio’s Reiatsu when going against them, it becomes a fairly large anti feat against Reiatsu being used at Low 2-C levels when not used for sustenance due to these major inconsistencies. And these non god tiers includes a CHILD mind you.
First Evidence: Reio's Eyeball Creatures
When in the middle of devouring the Soul King, Yhwach releases torrents of Reio's reiatsu in the form of eyeball creatures and sends them to attack Shinigami:
Shinigami as high into Captain class and lower than assistant captain class were able to fight against these creatures made by Reio's power. Easily.
Sui-Feng receives no much as a scratch against an entire gang of them when using her Bankai, and Omaeda smashes through them with no trouble either.
Hisagi, Ikkaku and Yumichika can attack these creatures and not get wiped out by being so much as near them.
Byakuya literally blasts away an entire wave of these creatures with extreme ease using Senbon-Zakura. The strength of these creatures, who are supposed to be made by Low 2-C Reiatsu, are treated as blatant fodder compared to these guys, making the disadvantage in numbers and an attrition battle the only difficulty in wiping them all out. Which is why Aizen was used to dispose of them all at the same time in one shot.
Thats not where this ends either.
Second Evidence: Yhwach's Reiatsu Remnants
By the end of the Bleach manga, remnants of Yhwach's reiatsu appear in the Soul Society. Byakuya and other captains go to dispose of it:
But before they get the chance to, Ichigo's son Kazui Kurosaki destroys the last remnant of Yhwach's power that also appeared in The World of The Living, confirmed by Aizen:
This supposed Low 2-C Reiatsu is shown, one way or another, to be countered by people who have absolutely no business touching this tier of power, and aren't acknowledged to despite the upgrades. This leaves a great deal of skepticism on this argument, much less how scaling is supposed to be done in comparison. Is this Reiatsu simply not Low 2-C when used offensively? Are Low 2-C non-god tiers a thing now for fighting against Low 2-C power without so much as getting a scratch? Low 2-C Captains? Low 2-C Lieutenants? Or biggest of all, Low 2-C Kazui? How can they so much as even stand in the general presence of Low 2-C energy...without being Low 2-C themselves?
TL;DR- This entire part of the argument, no offense, amounts to pretty much nothing to argue against the main actual point from the original post. The main point is that the destruction of the worlds when no longer supported by the Soul King isn't 3-A or Low 2-C as the destruction isn’t immediate, it happens over an extensively long timeframe, and is just unquantifiable at the most. To say otherwise is to take statements over a blatant portrayal, which is being intellectually dishonest and going against the source material. The Soul King fits almost none of the newly created stability standards besides arguably Requirement 2, and that’s a stretch itself since, more or less, there’s major inconsistencies with the reiatsu scaling to Low 2-C offensively as non god tiers are capable of fighting against both the Soul King and Yhwach’s Reiatsu, which suggests that their Reiatsu isn’t anywhere close to that strong when used offensively, assuming the stability feat is Low 2-C to begin with.
A clear choice needs to be made here. Either these several characters get a Low 2-C upgrade, or this Reiatsu being Low 2-C when used offensively is too inconsistent, which as a result, invalidates Yhwach using reiatsu that wouldn't be strong enough to destroy the worlds.
These counters against the Soul King’s passive feat still fitting within our new standards on Stability feats were already countered early in, and were explained many times over on why they do not fit in the new standards.
TL;DR- Quoting a counter argument that was debunked very very early in and leaving it at that isn’t a strong start to this.
Can’t Fear Your Own World Novel Statement On Flow of Souls
First things first, the use of volume three translations of the novel. The original post already made a point in addressing the fact that the official translations for CFYOW’s volume 3 novel will not be made available until the incoming months. This novel scan on the universal flow of souls is from the officially translated version of the novel’s 2nd volume. Why are Volume 3’s non-official translations beig used as a supporting counter point against this?
Even despite that, the flow of souls argument from the original post only used this statement from CFYOW as supporting evidence and not the main evidence, so it being invalidated by any chance does not deem the whole point or later points invalidated, even if this lying argument checks out.
TL;DR- This part of the counter argument doesn’t mean or do much. Its using material from a part of the novel that has yet to be officially translated, its going under the assumption that a character lying automatically devalues anything they say permanently, and even if this novel statement can’t be used, the main argument for the flow of souls only uses it as a supporting point, not as main evidence. There is more to use.
The Threat of the Quincies “Isn't True”
Finally, I will give credit here for someone actually giving an attempt to counter this point that the original post layed out and wasn't countered for several pages. That said, this evidence doesn’t change a thing about this point either, because this scan has absolutely nothing to do with the threat of the quincies, or the roles Shinigami played as balancers.
The scans here from the counter argument are only addressing the role of the Soul King himself being a lie told by the royal family, that him stabilizing the flow of souls is a lie told by them. The argument from IMade itself says this is the case as I will quote:
"As I pointed out in the previous comment, the Royal Family lied to the Shinigami and the world about what the Soul King's purpose and power was. No one besides a select few knew the actual truth; therefore, this point is also null." -IMade
This lie told from the Royal has to specifically do with the soul king’s role and what his power does. Let's assume for a moment that this is the case. What does this have to do with Quinicies threatening the balance of souls, and Shinigami being balancers, as told consistently and numerously in the series? The Soul King stabilizing the flow of souls being a lie does not mean that the Quincies destroying souls and removing them from the cycle permanently (which we know is obviously true) was also a lie. These are 2 completely and entirely separate points disjointed together under speculation that doesn't use actual supporting evidence.
We know that Quincies can permanently remove souls from the soul cycle as they eradicate hollows entirely. We know that Shinigami act as balancers to monitor and maintain the balance of souls between the Soul Society and World of the Living. Sending dead souls to the Soul Society to live there, and then re-sending them back into the Living World as living beings. The lie told by the Royal Family, even if that is the case, has absolutely nothing to do with this. It has to do with the Soul King and what he does in the Bleach Cosmology.
There is no specific evidence brought here from these novel scans that explicitly says the Quincies threatening the soul cycle, a consistent and major plot point in the series, was a lie fabricated by anyone.
TL;DR- This evidence does not amount to really anything either in the end. Even if the argument on this being a lie is true, this doesn’t have anything to do with what the Quincies were threatening to do to the Soul Cycle. The lie told here has to do with information related to the Soul King, a separate matter.
Yhwach’s Stability Statement
This argument about exposition and trying to “twist” Yhwach’s statement, again, is not the case here, because the original post was never assuming anything on this. It was pointing out that the statement has
another possible interpretation to it instead of it only being the highest one that's taken right now. And here’s why.
The structure of the statement that IMade tries to break down here for us means very little, to nothing, because the original post’s point on this part of the argument was talking about why the massive flow on Konpaku was even mentioned in the first place. It being “additional information” is a copout to go against the other viable interpretation, that the Soul King stabilizes the soul society through the massive numbers of Konpaku passing through it. If the Konpaku were not a factor into this sustenance statement for Reio, why would Yhwach bring it up in the first place? This is what the original argument, from my PoV, was addressing or was trying to address. It wouldn't have been brought up if it wasn’t an actual relevant factor in this, yet it was.
Even then, Yhwach’s statement again is not the only thing used by the original post to go against the Soul King’s passive feat.
The Soul King's Stability Done With Reiatsu/Reiryoku & The Almighty
No offense to IMade, but this point is just a complete non factor to what the original post said from the very beginning. This part of the argument had to do with the Soul King
stabilizing the worlds, not
creating them. And we all already know the Soul King split the original universe with the Almighty, what does it have to do with the sustenance feat here? Why was this mentioned?
The stability being done with Reiatsu isn’t mentioned here anyway, and the original post and later counters already made very extensive arguments on why it being down with Reiatsu doesn’t stop the downgrade from happening.
TL;DR- This counter point here is entirely pointless.
Yhwach “Doesn't” Have a Lack of Power
Okay. IMade doesn’t seem to actually understand what he didn’t try addressing earlier, so i’ll explain this once again.
Yhwach absorbing the Soul King, Mimihagi, and Ichigo’s power is completely and utterly irrelevant to this point. Why? Because their power is neither 3-A or Low 2-C without the sustenance feat being 3-A or Low 2-C in the first place. This was explained several times, and I will quote the most recent clarification I gave to Arc earlier before you responded.
Lets go under the idea that the Weakened Soul King's feat is no longer quantifiable for 3-A or Low 2-C for a second, okay?
With it being unquantifiable, that makes the Weakened Soul King's tier unquantifiable because the feat no longer qualifies for 3-A or Low 2-C. Which means, Yhwach being > the Weakened Soul King and him absorbing his, Mimihagi's, and Ichigo's Quincy/Hollow powers are also unquantifiable, not 3-A or Low 2-C. Which means, Peak Yhwach by the time of the arc's conclusion doesnt get to 3-A or Low 2-C anymore with amps. Peak Yhwach's tier would be unquantifiable when going off of that.
The Reio creatures and Yhwach's Reiatsu being dealt with by non god tiers, and the arrow, are further supporting points, but the stability feat being invalidated was the original post's main core argument for downgrading Yhwach's stats.
With those factored in, the only evidence left now that would support Yhwach's statements, without any supporting feats or supporting scaling being factored in, would purely be the statements
themselves.
Thats why, for Yhwach, it would come down to if whether or not statements as the only evidence would be good enough evidence for the god tiers to climb these number of tiers all at once:
- High 6-A
- 5-C
- Low 5-B
- 5-B
- 5-A
- High 5-A
- Low 4-C
- 4-C
- 4-B
- 4-A
- 3-C
- 3-B
- 3-A
- High 3-A
- Low 2-C
More or less,
15 whole different tiers. All given just by the use of statements and no other evidence. The people who are for the downgrade dont think statements are viable enough evidence for an upgrade as drastic as this.
Yhwach absorbing their power, which would be unquantifiable, only means Peak Yhwach by the time of the arc’s conclusion does not get amped by 3-A / Low 2-C power anymore, he would be amped by unquantifiable levels of power. Meaning, he doesn't reach either tier with this method.
TL;DR- Yhwach would indeed have a lack of power and supporting feats to do his feat, and IMade himself ignored the argument on why the sustenance feat itself is not quantifiable under the new standards, so his word on this line of argumentation should be less credibitable by that alone. This point is entirely null.
Ganju’s Credibility
I was going to originally respond to this in that response Arc made about this small point specifically, but I might as well sum it up here seeing as we're reaching the threads conclusion.
Just to correct you IMade, you do know that the map to the Royal Palace wasn’ aquired by Ganju in the first place, right? It was given to
his sister, Kukaku Shiba? The
literal clan leader of the Shiba Family, who would quite very obviously be an exception compared to her younger brother? Zero Squad gave her the map, who then gave it to Ganju, which ironically speaks to the point that not just any run of the mill person gets access to very secretive information like this on a whim all because of their royal lineage. But that's a minor point I thought would be good to correct you on real quick.
Yhwach Planning To Destroy The Garganta
Thank you for, what i'm assuming to be, conceding to the original posts point about Ganju’s statement, credible or not, referring to the death of the Soul King and not Yhwach’s plans. But no, that kinda doesn’t make it “still applicable”. Because Yhwach “planning” to destroy everything, which by your words has to include Garganta, isn’t how we measure and give large feats like this here. What matters at the end of the day isn’t character intention, its capability and confirmation. What matters at the end of the day is the character being confirmed to do what's claimed of them, not what the character themselves intend to do. And before you try and formulate a response to this point, i’ll just direct you to this quote on an earlier counter I already made:
This is the last thing that I will say here on this point about “planning” arguments coming from characters.
Character Intentions vs Burden of Proof
I'll be honest here. Our standards for requiring concrete evidence, which are not perfect by any sense of the word and have already been set on a bar with new lows, has been lowered even further to levels where the intention of the character and statements by themselves are somehow solid enough evidences to accept upgrades so drastically large like this one. And that's a problem.
There was a time where our standards were held to a much, much higher level of scrutiny than this and required much more evidence and supportive backing in order to make a notable change in profiles, whether that be a large change in hax abilities or bumping characters to being several tiers above what they were previously. Now we go with accepting things that go anywhere from characters lacking tier 7 feats, having genuine anti-feats and a large lack in supporting feats to being bumped to Multiversal level on the basis of what could very easily be considered flowery language or statements lacking in the credibility department. This, however, was at least manageable where arguments have some kind of a basis behind them, right or wrong. But now, we’re dealing with "intention arguments" where people are accepting intentions from what a character has for an objective as core evidence.
If far more concrete evidence than this have led to characters getting only a “Possibly” or “Likely” rating for upgrades on this site, it should make an upgrade like this one here, under this premise, very questionable. It’s almost as if people have forgotten the concept of what extraordinary evidence actually means, because this most certainly doesn’t fall under that definition. Climbing tiers means you need to give more evidence the higher you go, and a character's intentions for what they want to do don’t mean they are guaranteed to be able to do that. If this evidence is used purely as a supporting argument? Then sure, that is solid to back main evidence up. But this evidence being used as the main core reason to keep an upgrade in its entirety? Without any supporting feats, viable scaling, or factors that can actually be considered concrete evidence? That just doesn’t seem to be concrete enough to give a proper rating and it needs to make us more self-aware of what should and what shouldnt be good enough to give upgrades here.
The Silver Arrow Penetrating Yhwach and Uryu’s Antithesis
Once again, you kinda need to be following along with everything happening in the thread and not what the original post says only. I already gave counters against Uryu using Antithesis, quoted here:
Silver Arrow Being Unreliable
The argument of Uryu using the Antithesis to fire the arrow at Yhwach is headcanon. We know the Antithesis as a whole is a viable counter to the Almighty, but that hardly matters when there’s no direct evidence that Uryu did use Antithesis against Yhwach, especially when
he couldn’t have used it against Yhwach.
Uryu’s Antithesis’s abilities work by being able to completely reverse anything that already happened between two targets. Pay close attention to the word
TWO.
For Warren’s argument on the Antithesis being used to make sense, Uryu would have needed to have
another target present with him
to shoot first before reversing what happened to that target onto Yhwach. And there’s no evidence of this being present in that moment. This would be stacking an assumption, on-top of another assumption, in an attempt to counter the silver arrow. Without a second target being proved to be involved, it would be impossible for Uryu to use Antithesis on the arrow and then on Yhwach. As a smaller nitpick, this argument also assumes the Antithesis can transport physical objects when reversing the events, despite Uryu never displaying a feat like this with Antithesis. Going off this, that's stacking 3 assumptions on top of each other.
Adding to the aforementioned points, going off the “crumbs” of the scene, we see
smoke coming out of Uryu’s quincy bow immediately after Yhwach is hit with the arrow, while facing Yhwach's direction:
This strongly goes against the Antithesis argument and supports the arrow being fired normally. Which anyone under normal circumstances would assume that Uryu just up and fired the bow at Yhwach. You’d have to go through a number of different mental gymnastics to deny this being the case, just as the argument on positioning does.
A viable and less argumentative assumption to make, instead of making leaps in logic on Uryu's position, is to blame Kubo for terrible paneling. The depiction of the arrow is displayed as Uryu shooting Yhwach from the back, which has to imply he’s behind Yhwach to do that. The arrow being portrayed as shooting Yhwach from behind, when the implication from Warren’s argument is supposed to be Uryu being in front of Yhwach, makes no sense.
TL;DR- Uryu didn't use Antithesis here, he couldn’t have used Antithesis and no direct evidence says he did. The more viable explanation here is that he just shot Yhwach normally with his bow, which has direct support and takes far less assumptions to make.
And you're still missing the point of why this was brought up as an anti-feat to begin with. The arrow nulling Almighty (which we know is a PIS / D.E.M) has nothing to do with the fact that the arrow physically penetrated him in order to do that. The arrow would need to be as strong as Yhwach in order for it to null his abilities.
Personally speaking, I'm fine with dropping with the Silver Arrow point too, but i'm clarifying why the original post brought this up. Because either the arrow is Low 2-C in strength in order to physically penetrate Yhwach, or it's not Low 2-C and it's an anti feat.
Yhwach Stabilizing The Worlds
I know they said he stablized them, and they are irrelevant because of one simple thing that's been repeated this whole thread.
Feats >>> Statements. That's how this works. And Yhwach stabilizing the worlds isn’t consistent with those statements.
He was killed 2x against Ichigo, the first time having to literally rewrite his death with the Almighty in order to save himself from dying. Which means, even if only for a moment, that was a real death. And the dimensional quaking did not restart despite that happening when Reio died and when Mimihagi was absorbed. If Yhwach dies for even a moment, and the quaking does not restart, how is he stabilizing them? No one has yet to actually counter this.
And as said many times before, this wouldn’t matter much anyway because Yhwach’s own stability feat gets invalidated just like the Soul King’s feat does. One way or another, the stability feat from Yhwach does nothing either.
Reio Eyeball Monsters
They’re being discussed because the gang of people who side with you against the downgrades don’t actually seem to fully understand the tier they are trying to defend, Low 2-C. Low 2-C was explained many many times over in this thread THAT cannot be quantifiably divided up in power like lower tiers can because it's dealing with
infinite energy. Divided up power will always remain Low 2-C, no matter what. It becomes weaker by unquantifiable extents the more it is divided up, but it still remains Low 2-C. That's how the tier works and that's how tiers above it in our tiering system works.
Meaning, as was said several times, if you argue the Weakened Soul King’s tier to be Low 2-C, then the Reio eyeball monsters created by his Low 2-C reiatsu are still going to be Low 2-C in power no matter how much weaker they are than the Weakened Soul King’s total amount of power. Which still generates anti feats and inconsistencies with non god tiers fighting against the Low 2-C reiatsu.
Almighty Scaling to AP
Sorry IMade, but once again, this was already addressed and in very big detail in previous counters:
Almighty Scaling To AP
Large misconception, and inconsistency, here with this. Nothing in Jugrams statement means the Almighty scales to Yhwach’s Attack Potency here.
First Issue: The Misconception
Where in this statement does Jugram say the Almighty needs strength to be used in the first place? That's not what was said at all. The Almighty IS able to be used before Yhwach’s 9 years of restoring his power is up. What ISN’T able to happen is the Almighty being
freely controlled. Jugram explicitly says that the Almighty
could have gone out of control and absorbed the power of the Sternritters if Yhwach opened his eyes earlier, implying that Yhwach does not need his strength restored to activate Almighty to begin with, but that he does need his strength in order to freely wield it. This would have to be the case or else “going out of control” wouldn't be a viable possibility to begin with since the ability wouldn't be able to activate under this logic. Your arguments going under the idea that Almighty can’t be “used” in the sense that it cant be used at all without restored power, which is wrong.
Second Problem: Scaling to Attack Potency
How is this supposed to mean Almighty scales to Yhwach’s attack potency? This isn’t as if Yhwach’s raw power is being put into Almighty when using it. What’s said is that for Ywhach to even open his eyes without losing control, he has to be strong, but that does not mean that the Almighty itself buffs his strength, nor does it mean Yhwach’s AP is regularly put into whatever the Almighty does. His raw power had to be strong enough, right before opening his eyes, to have control over the Almighty. Having the stats to control the Almighty is a prerequisite to using the power, not a result of activating the power itself. In other words,
it is a caveat to using the Almighty, not a benefit from using it. It is a weakness, which is basic common sense for any character with an ability or technique and needing enough strength to, you know, use it properly.
This can be compared to an analogy of why this type of scaling doesnt work. This is like a child trying to carry a rocket launcher. He won’t be able to do it at his age, but when he grows up, he’ll be able to carry the rocket launcher and shoot out 8-B missles. Doesn’t mean the dude is anywhere near 8-B after growing up when doing that. It just means he became strong enough to support and fire the 8-B weapon.
And for what its worth, we also dont do this kind of scaling here for other series with similar circumstances. Is
Deku now 7-B because he needed to be physically strong enough to wield and handle One for All, despite not being anywhere close to
All Might's level when first using it? Is
Roshi now 5-C reguarly because he needs to use up all of his energy to use Mafuba, a seal that can fail even when
Low 2-C Goku tried using it without dying? Is
Nagato 6-C regularly for having and Rinnegan, something that requires massively large quantities of chakra, and is something
even above Nagato's individual power?
Third Problem: HUGE Scaling Inconsistencies
Adding to the above, this creates HUGE scaling issues that makes the upgrades even more of a mess than already seen as.
Lets go under the assumption that Weakened Reio is still Low 2-C. Almighty Yhwach is treated by us as being above Weakened Reio. This gives big problems, because going by the logic of this argument, Low 2-C power in general is needed to use the Almighty, since if Almighty Yhwach is >>> Weakened Soul King, who you guys still consider to be Low 2-C, and Almighty scales to Yhwach's attack potency, that would mean Yhwach was always Low 2-C and Yhwach regularly is Low 2-C as he would need Low 2-C power to wield Almighty in the first place.
This then scales to
a lot of different characters. Yamamoto would be scaling to Low 2-C since he and Yhwach 1000 of years prior to the series could not kill each other and Yhwach considered Prime Yamamoto a beast; The 5 War Potentials would arguably scale based off the very fact that Yhwach was concerned with them and made the Sternritter be wary of them, which makes no sense unless they were Low 2-C themselves for Yhwach to see them as a threat; On top of that, Ichibei would at least be the one member of Zero Squad who’d be scaling to Low 2-C since he outright fights Yhwach before and after the Almighty appeared without getting instantaneously stomped.
After that comes Jugram once again; Jugram was able to use Almighty in Yhwach’s place, which would mean he would need Low 2-C power to even remotely wield the Almighty; And no, it being a weaker Almighty does not change the fact that he’d need to be in the same realm of Low 2-C power as Yhwach is, or else using the Almighty is impossible from the start for a non Low 2-C. A weaker Almighty just means Jugram is a weaker Low 2-C than Yhwach is, so Low 2-C Jugram for using Almighty on some level now comes from this.
And after
that, we get Low 2-C Uryu and likely Low 2-C Sternritters; Uryu lasted against Almighty Jugram, and made Jugram struggle afterwards, so he’d scale, and Sternritters likely scale to either Jugram or Uryu if memory serves me right.
And after that, we get Low 2-C Captains and Assistant Captains who'd be Low 2-C for fighting the Sternritters .
Very easily, this logic results in over 20+ characters magically scaling to the upgrades, which creates inconsistency after inconsistency with every passing moment and makes this much more outlierish. And this is all on the premise that Almighty scales to Yhwach’s attack potency, which as explained, shouldn't be scaling.
So a choice needs to be made. Either the Almighty doesn’t scale to attack potency and is treated as pure hax, or many characters end up scaling to the upgrades to make this incredibly inconsistent.
Overall TL;DR:
I appreciate IMade getting a chance to give a response after all this time of waiting before getting to staff members giving judgement, but ultimately, it is still the same result as it was before. The downgrade argument still remains largely unrefuted. His responses and input have changed nothing about the downgrades main arguments and main points, besides debunking at best minor points that were already dropped throughout the 4 pages this thread has spanned through, and minor points that most certainly don’t weaken the downgrade’s argument. His response here does not actually address the main core arguments on why AKM made this downgrade in the first place.
The main arguments being that, one way or another, the stability feat used to support the upgrades is invalid. Regardless of whether the Soul King maintains the flow of souls, or maintains the actual universes, and whether or not Reiatsu is used to maintain the worlds, it’s not a 3-A or Low 2-C quantifiable feat to be used as many counter arguments here have explained and expressed why it isn't over and over and over again. The destruction of the worlds when no longer supported by the Soul King is not 3-A or Low 2-C as they get destroyed over an extensive timeframe, where nothing dimensionally gets destroyed, the worlds all get effected differently, and that doesnt align with our newly made standards to scrutinize sustenance feats more. IMade himself even admits to not understanding this part of the argument on why the stability feat doesn’t count as an acceptable feat anymore, which should show just how much his argument counters and
what it doesn’t counter. Much of IMade’s argument involves points that were discussed and countered to death throughout these 4 pages in the thread already, which should be somewhat telling on the opposition’s credibility on said counter arguments.
Point about the Almighty scaling to Attack Potency? Addressed already on why it doesn’t. Point about the Antithesis? Addressed already on why it wasn’t used. Point about the Reio Creatures not being Low 2-C in power? Addressed already on why they would and why the opposition doesn’t seem to understand how Low 2-C works to argue against it. The list can grow from there on what's already been addressed here. Even the very beginning of IMade’s counter argument here starts out by quoting points from Warren’s counter argument, an argument
that I already countered very early into this thread as my first set of counters. Adding even more to this is the fact that other inconsistencies, like Ichigo’s son destroying Reiatsu that would still be Low 2-C, or the inconsistent scaling the Almighty brings by being argued as AP, were not addressed by IMade’s counter arguments either.
Ultimately, a lot of what was brought into this thread in favor of the downgrades was either ignored by IMade, not understood by IMade, or both. And it's due to these very things that IMades responses here have not changed much of anything, just as previous counter arguments to defend the upgrades have not been able to. And thats why its imperative, for people reading and voting in this thread all around, to analyze everything from both sides in full.
