Black Clover downgrade

[DivineAura44]

NGL this argument sounds childish. The argument is based off of if something said Skash or Flash or sumn. I would love to see this played out for another 2 pages.

 

[KingTempest]

What chapter is this

 

[Epsilon_R]

NGL this argument sounds childish. The argument is based off of if something said Skash or Flash or sumn. I would love to see this played out.

How is this childish? The sfxs literally help us find out if light magic was being used or not

 

[Epsilon_R]

What chapter is this

What

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

No it's not, "Flash" sfx is only used when there's light or when Light Magic is in movement.

And when an onomatopoeia is black it indicates that the sound is created by black magic (Created by Yami). It's simple reasoning with the context of the fight, every attack created by light magic created a white onomatopoeia, every attack created by black magic created a black onomatopoeia. It is not a rule that only light magic creates the "Flash" sound. And what I say is very consistent considering the scene in the anime

Also, the Yami creates the "Flash" here:

 

[Epsilon_R]

And when an onomatopoeia is black it indicates that the sound is created by black magic (Created by Yami). It's simple reasoning with the context of the fight, every attack created by light magic created a white onomatopoeia, every attack created by black magic created a black onomatopoeia. It is not a rule that only light magic creates the "Flash" sound, that is imaginary. And what I say is very consistent considering the scene in the anime

Also, the Yami creates the "Flash" here:

Dude, that's Patry's attacks...

Also we have instances where flash sfx is Black even when Yami's not here

 

[KingTempest]

What

What chapter is this

No it's not, "Flash" sfx is only used when there's light or when Light Magic is in movement.

The sfx for the cloaked katana is "Skash" not Flash.

A katana doing a camera sound makes 0 sense to begin with

 

[SupremeNiva]

These scenes have a difference, but not the specific one. Dragon Ball Z for example, has millions of differences between anime and manga, but yet we use scenes that are the same to calculate

CMIIW but didn't DBZ anime>DBZ manga? That's why we seperate two of them and called DBZ anime Toeiverse instead right.

 

[DivineAura44]

How is this childish? The sfxs literally help us find out if light magic was being used or not

I said sounds like, inferring that it isn't. Imagine your seeing an argument and it sounds like this. (P1: It said Boom and Swish not Bam and Slink. P2: No it totally said Slink, Bam, and Pshhh.)

 

[Epsilon_R]

First link is chapter 72, second is 77 and third is 63

 

[Epsilon_R]

And when an onomatopoeia is black it indicates that the sound is created by black magic (Created by Yami).

False
Not true
Wrong
Not right

 

[KingTempest]

These are the raws, check them out for the original kanji

 

[Epsilon_R]

Flash sfx Jap version

Also notice how the Japanese has the Flash sfx in white for that scene

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

False
Not true
Wrong
Not right

I said Yami vs Licht

 

[Epsilon_R]

I said Yami vs Licht

Doesn't matter. The Japanese has the flash sfx in white anyway

 

[USklaverei]

That doesn't change the fact that he needs to have this reaction speed in prefer to stop himself in such a short distance....

No, you are making an assumption that he is doing this based on a vague scan, since he never did it during the whole fight, when I get home I will write a text about why this is vague and invalid.

 

[USklaverei]

For the original calculation blog, the feats being calculated should be linked to.

The link is in the OP

 

[Epsilon_R]

No, you are making an assumption that he is doing this based on a vague scan, since he never did it during the whole fight, when I get home I will write a text about why this is vague and invalid.

You don't need to have 160IQ nor make any assumption to know that Patry obviously need to have such Reaction Speed to stop himself from moving at Lightspeed in a short distance

 

[USklaverei]

Again, he doesn’t do this, you’re assuming it by a single vague panel, where you’re just calculating the distance Patry traveled with the light magic, in the calculation you’re assuming he was changing the course still moving at the speed of light , since this NEVER happens during every fight, Patry always activates and deactivates her when she moves to a certain moment.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

I still don't understand the logic of the calculation. Why does moving at speed X need reaction Y?

Exemple

Speed of a normal punch = 11.176m/s
Size of a normal arm = 0.71 meters
Time = 0.71/11.176
Time = 0.06352899069 seg

Superhuman perception

The reaction of a normal human is superhuman with this logic

 

[StrawHatArslan]

I think USk is putting up a really good argument now, I'm neutral again.

 

[Epsilon_R]

"Patry always activates and deactivates her when she moves to a certain moment."


Going with your logic. You see Patry at point A then he moves at lightspeed to point B and deactivates his magic. The distance he travelled from point A to point B at lightspeed gives us a time. He needs to have Reactions good enough to deactivate the movement spell in that short period of time so where's the problem?

 

[USklaverei]

The problem is in supposing that he is changing course while moving at the speed of light, since he never does that, in all scans he goes from one point to another and just stops moving.

 

[Epsilon_R]

That's not the case, if he was just moving from point A to B in a straight line, he would have run into Yami here

We also see him moving behind Yami despite the fact that he moved from the side

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

I still don't understand the logic of the calculation. Why does moving at speed X need reaction Y?

Exemple

Speed of a normal punch = 11.176m/s
Size of a normal arm = 0.71 meters
Time = 0.71/11.176
Time = 0.06352899069 seg

Superhuman perception

The reaction of a normal human is superhuman with this logic

In fact, the normal size of an arm is 0.743 meters. Anyway, still shows that it is wrong

 

[Epsilon_R]

Sure, you're calculating the timeframe of a punch which isn't different from me calculating the timeframe of patry.

But the difference is Patry was able to turn his body around while moving at lightspeed, while a human can't turn his body in the timeframe of a punch

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Dude, its the same logic. You are assuming that Licht reacted at FTL speed by moving his body at the speed of light, in the case of the example I showed it is the same sense of your calculation, a character X moving at speed Y needs reaction V, which makes no sense. About "The example is a simple punch, Licht is moving his body" is irrelevant, I react when my punchs moves, or do you think a normal human is able to attack faster than his reaction perspection? If it were this way UFC fights would be finished in the first second

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

As we see in the image, a black '' line '' separating them, which shows that in one frame it is a movement and in another frame, a different one, that is, the calculation is completely wrong by the assumption that it changed its trajectory based on this scan.

Those are not different frames; they are Yami’s Black lightless slash that Patry is Dodging.

The second calculation uses the same method that was used here (for me even included) to determine the minimum distance that the beam traveled, but, exactly as in the other calculation, it was pointed out that the pixel scale is flawed because it is not consistent, so you can always end up inflating trying to get distances using this method (I don't have the topic in that this has been discussed, if anyone has, I would be grateful.)

if it's an error of pixel scaling then I don't have an issue with this.

“Yami cant react to Lightspeed because he says Patry will just dodge him anyway”

Saying someone can dodge your attacks ≠ Not being able to react

The context here is in reference as a response to Patry’s RANGED attack, meaning his talking about his dark magic.

This is because DARK Magic is Inherently Slower and the times he caught Patry off guard are illuding to that as seen here

Yami is also Physically slower than Patry, meaning that the latter is always going to be a bit faster, it’s for this reason why we separate Reaction and Attack speed on this wiki and how outpacing someone is different from Blitzing them.

“Yami got blitzed earlier in the Fight by Patry

No, he didn't, this is not what a blitz is, Yami isn't engaging with Patry at all, he seems more interested by the fact that Patry looks Familiar

Even if we Steelman this argument and say Patry Blitzed Yami completely no cap, it would still be a non sequitur because that Yami is being completely casual as proven by the fact that he goes all out later and reacts to both Patry and Raia.

“Patry’s attack was stated to be undodgeable and confirmed to be Speed of Light by Gaush which he couldn't react to”

Okay, first these are technically two separate arguments so ill have to break them down separately.

The speed you'll never avoid” doesn't mean anything because it’s not being used in Isolation, the phrase is part of a larger sentence thats there to emphasize the spell retaining all of Patry’s strengths increasing the potency while circumventing the issues he faced earlier.
The speed you'll never avoid is referencing to evading it Physically by either running out of it’s way or escaping, this is why instead of escaping Yami and Asta just take a defensive role, we know this to be true because of what directly follows that line, “a Spell with such wide range and high output that pulling it in that spell you used will do you no good” why do you think Patry is increasing his AOE ?, it’s to counter Yami’s Black hole that sucks up light and his sword cloaked in darkness, because even if the black hole sucks in his magic there’s an entire area left exposed, including Yami and asta.

Why would Patry even bother doing this if his attack alone is enough to utterly blitz Yami, Yami isn't pulling any blackholes if the attack moves faster than he can react.

“Gauche cant react to Lightspeed”

No. Gauche not being able to “see it” is referencing the Literal attack, he can't see it because It’s blinding and doesn't know if patry dodged it or not, he then says it was lightspeed so it should be Impossible to dodge right with a ?, this is him reassuring himself because he literally could not see.

And here is some anime footage that isn't actually contradicted by the manga.

This is supported by the fact that even the English dub who work closely with the Official Japanese team translated it as “I’m not sure if I hit the bastard but there’s no way he could have dodged it”


There’s a huge difference between, I couldn't see the attack, But that was light speed and I couldn't see the attack because it was moving at lightspeed.

One is making a statement followed by an Observation the other is making a conclusion based on cause and effect, this horrible equivocation needs to stop.

“Gauche said it would be Impossible for Patry to dodge”

Lightspeed doesn't mean Solely SOL, in fiction, it’s a blanket term meaning Speed of Light or more, in the same way lightning speed doesn't equate to Speed of Lightning as in its exact value, Lightning speed can mean a lot of things from hyperbole movements to actual potentially real lightning speed or lightning that's way way way faster than real lightning but “The Speed of lightning” means something specific, it’s why we can have MFTL+ characters that say stuff like “my lightspeed attacks will overcome you and blah blah”

This is while avoiding the fact Gauche has the least amount of context here in regards to Patry, making him an Unreliable narrator.

“Patry couldn't dodge his own attack”

He reacted to it and chose not to evade it because of Gauche, this is ignoring the fact that even moving at lightspeed he would still get caught in it thanks to the AOE.

“Yami didn't react to Raia”

An exhausted Yami who was still in the middle of a conversation and caught off guard still reacted and tagged Raia.

And no, Raia didn't lightspeed back and then move out of the way, if this was true the panelling would indicate this either by splitting the two actions up in their own panels or giving us a visual through-line of Raia’s last position followed by his current one. None of this happens, we see the lightspeed flash and Raia’s movement lines pulling away from Yami’s slash.

and that's it for today for me. there are a few typos here but I wrote most of this at work, while also having to change patry's name back because it kept auto-correcting it to Party. but oh well.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

I hate comments like that. If you have to show a lot of scans use links

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

I hate comments like that. If you have to show a lot of scans use links

Dont have the time, it's not even formatted the way I want it.

 

[Epsilon_R]

I react when my punchs moves, or do you think a normal human is able to attack faster than his reaction perspection?

Then you're contradicting yourself since the punching speed you got is faster than a human Reaction Speed

IfIf it were this way UFC fights would be finished in the first second

Being able to perceived at X Timeframe is different from moving your entire body around at X Timeframe. UFC fighters barely have the time to move away from a punch at close range, let alone turn their entire body around.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Even if we Steelman this argument and say Patry Blitzed Yami completely no cap, it would still be a non sequitur because that Yami is being completely casual as proven by the fact that he goes all out later and reacts to both Patry and Raia.

Yeah, Yami was only able to react and follow Licht's attacks after he got serious and was able to use all his power. This is 100% correct and there is no way to refute this. The only problem is that Licht was as well not using all his magic power, this is extremely explicit with his reactions, Licht was not impressed by anything Yami did by reflecting his light magic. Basically Licht was just testing Yami's power. This becomes even more obvious after he says that he didn't even know about Yami and thought that nobody could defeat him.

And even using the reasoning "Oh, lol he was not using his full power" is not relevant. Even after he used full power Yami still wasn't able to hit Licht, even if Licht didn't prepare for a big speed boost. Here again Yami attacks Licht by surprise, and still fails to hit him. LITERALLY the only attack Yami managed to hit Licht was when he was completely immobilized.

The speed you'll never avoid is referencing to evading it Physically by either running out of it’s way or escaping, this is why instead of escaping Yami and Asta just take a defensive role, we know this to be true because of what directly follows that line, “a Spell with such wide range and high output that pulling it in that spell you used will do you no good” why do you think Patry is increasing his AOE ?, it’s to counter Yami’s Black hole that sucks up light and his sword cloaked in darkness, because even if the black hole sucks in his magic there’s an entire area left exposed, including Yami and asta.

The diameter of light is 5 meters. The distance in the best perspective is 21 meters

Time = 21.2703096547/299792458
Time = 7.09501159e-8

Speed = 5.40207407407/7.09501159e-8
Speed = 76139045.0959m/s

0.04c, this is the speed they need to dodge. And they can't get away from it (You said it yourself)

No. Gauche not being able to “see it” is referencing the Literal attack, he can't see it because It’s blinding and doesn't know if patry dodged it or not, he then says it was lightspeed so it should be Impossible to dodge right with a ?, this is him reassuring himself because he literally could not see.

The problem with the reaction is that the calculation is wrong and is incalculable with the shitty proportion of the chapter. I don't think anyone said anything about this, only @KingTempest.

Lightspeed doesn't mean Solely SOL, in fiction, it’s a blanket term meaning Speed of Light or more

The 0.04c calculation explanation this. He doesn't need to move at SoL speed at this distance. And if the speed in light is not defined why do we use 299792458 meters per second in the calculation?

An exhausted Yami

Wait, exhausted? He did not receive a scratch in the battle. Come on, he... Easily beat Licht

And no, Raia didn't lightspeed back and then move out of the way, if this was true the panelling would indicate this either by splitting the two actions up in their own panels or giving us a visual through-line of Raia’s last position followed by his current one. None of this happens, we see the lightspeed flash and Raia’s movement lines pulling away from Yami’s slash.

I... I don't understand anything in this comment. Raia did not move at the speed of light to dodge Yami attack, there is nothing to indicate that, simply existing some movement effects in the scan do not indicate anything at all, even because they are jumping, this is common. The "Flash" is also not a justification, it is not a rule of magic, many times the same thing happens and this onomatopoeia does not appear, like here. This becomes even more obvious in the anime, where it is clearly shown that Raia did not use light magic to dodge Yami's katana attack

Don't say something like "The anime is not valid". I understand that the production of Black Clover is a real shit, but in this scene I honestly can't see anything that contradicts the manga, just shows the scene in a better context. Tell me the sense of them changing something so simple in the anime. Also, Raia was admiring Yami's magic book, he was not prepared to use his light magic

Saying someone can dodge your attacks ≠ Not being able to react

Nobody said that

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Also, "sorry" for taking so long to comment

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Yeah

Will reply tomorrow, when I have time to format my stuff and avoid walls of text.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Also, "sorry" for taking so long to comment

No stress lol

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Summing, I agree with SoL's reaction speed (I don't think anyone disagreed with that here), but I don't agree that the attacks are close to the speed of light

 

[DaReaperMan]

oh its BEUTIFUL! I can watch a thread turn into a shitshow again!

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

oh its BEUTIFUL! I can watch a thread turn into a shitshow again!

If you have nothing productive to add to either side, please leave and stop adding unnecessary comments.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Those are not different frames; they are Yami’s Black lightless slash that Patry is Dodging.



if it's an error of pixel scaling then I don't have an issue with this.

Saying someone can dodge your attacks ≠ Not being able to react

The context here is in reference as a response to Patry’s RANGED attack, meaning his talking about his dark magic.

This is because DARK Magic is Inherently Slower and the times he caught Patry off guard are illuding to that as seen here

Yami is also Physically slower than Patry, meaning that the latter is always going to be a bit faster, it’s for this reason why we separate Reaction and Attack speed on this wiki and how outpacing someone is different from Blitzing them.



No, he didn't, this is not what a blitz is, Yami isn't engaging with Patry at all, he seems more interested by the fact that Patry looks Familiar

Even if we Steelman this argument and say Patry Blitzed Yami completely no cap, it would still be a non sequitur because that Yami is being completely casual as proven by the fact that he goes all out later and reacts to both Patry and Raia.

Okay, first these are technically two separate arguments so ill have to break them down separately.

The speed you'll never avoid” doesn't mean anything because it’s not being used in Isolation, the phrase is part of a larger sentence thats there to emphasize the spell retaining all of Patry’s strengths increasing the potency while circumventing the issues he faced earlier.
The speed you'll never avoid is referencing to evading it Physically by either running out of it’s way or escaping, this is why instead of escaping Yami and Asta just take a defensive role, we know this to be true because of what directly follows that line, “a Spell with such wide range and high output that pulling it in that spell you used will do you no good” why do you think Patry is increasing his AOE ?, it’s to counter Yami’s Black hole that sucks up light and his sword cloaked in darkness, because even if the black hole sucks in his magic there’s an entire area left exposed, including Yami and asta.

Why would Patry even bother doing this if his attack alone is enough to utterly blitz Yami, Yami isn't pulling any blackholes if the attack moves faster than he can react.

No. Gauche not being able to “see it” is referencing the Literal attack, he can't see it because It’s blinding and doesn't know if patry dodged it or not, he then says it was lightspeed so it should be Impossible to dodge right with a ?, this is him reassuring himself because he literally could not see.

And here is some anime footage that isn't actually contradicted by the manga.

This is supported by the fact that even the English dub who work closely with the Official Japanese team translated it as “I’m not sure if I hit the bastard but there’s no way he could have dodged it”


There’s a huge difference between, I couldn't see the attack, But that was light speed and I couldn't see the attack because it was moving at lightspeed.

One is making a statement followed by an Observation the other is making a conclusion based on cause and effect, this horrible equivocation needs to stop.


Lightspeed doesn't mean Solely SOL, in fiction, it’s a blanket term meaning Speed of Light or more, in the same way lightning speed doesn't equate to Speed of Lightning as in its exact value, Lightning speed can mean a lot of things from hyperbole movements to actual potentially real lightning speed or lightning that's way way way faster than real lightning but “The Speed of lightning” means something specific, it’s why we can have MFTL+ characters that say stuff like “my lightspeed attacks will overcome you and blah blah”

This is while avoiding the fact Gauche has the least amount of context here in regards to Patry, making him an Unreliable narrator.



He reacted to it and chose not to evade it because of Gauche, this is ignoring the fact that even moving at lightspeed he would still get caught in it thanks to the AOE.

“Yami didn't react to Raia”

An exhausted Yami who was still in the middle of a conversation and caught off guard still reacted and tagged Raia.

And no, Raia didn't lightspeed back and then move out of the way, if this was true the panelling would indicate this either by splitting the two actions up in their own panels or giving us a visual through-line of Raia’s last position followed by his current one. None of this happens, we see the lightspeed flash and Raia’s movement lines pulling away from Yami’s slash.

and that's it for today for me. there are a few typos here but I wrote most of this at work, while also having to change patry's name back because it kept auto-correcting it to Party. but oh well.

I agree with this

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

At this point saying "I agree" is also useless