• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Bill Cipher revisions

Status
Not open for further replies.
@Ricsi

  • "not because everyone has it, redundant because its covered by another power"
Nothing wrong with Limited Energy Creation really & Petrification has its own page, so "redundancy" for that wouldn't apply.
 
Another thing I almost forgot to mention, well since Bill Cipher exists as a state of Quantum Uncertainty (being both alive and dead), I suggest he should also have Immunity to Soul Manipulation.
 
Magi Hussie said:
Another thing I almost forgot to mention, well since Bill Cipher exists as a state of Quantum Uncertainty (being both alive and dead), I suggest he should also have Immunity to Soul Manipulation.
Click to expand...
No, that is completly wrong. Being an abstract entity never stopped anyone from being soulhaxed, being schordinger never stoped alucard from being soulhaxed.
 
Magi Hussie said:
Another thing I almost forgot to mention, well since Bill Cipher exists as a state of Quantum Uncertainty (being both alive and dead), I suggest he should also have Immunity to Soul Manipulation.
Click to expand...
That doesn't make a lot of sense. At best it would give him Acausality or type 5 immortality, but the latter is too much of a stretch.
 
@Ricsi "The page litiraly links transmutation and says that petrification is a subpower of it."

You're complaining about an ability that already has its own page and can be linked specifically to there, you don't want a page to be considered very useless here you know.

@Ricsi, @Steven, and @DMB Then why do characters like Palkia has it using that reason and inb4 "Predating souls = Immunity to Soul Manipulation."
 
because in pokemon lore they existed beofre all else in reality, being a mathematical being does not mean he existed before souls.


And it has its own page to be specific, like how there is a page for elemental manipukation, heat manipulkation and fire manipulation. We do not give all three.

If the character has multiple elemental manipulations then we simply give that, and then at most further explain by naming them instead of linking each on its own,

If its only for, we only give fire

If its heat and can create fire, we give heat, and mention it can make fire with it.


Putting all possible subcategories of powers would make ability kists uneededly long and complicaed.
 
@Ricsi

  • "cause in pokemon lore they existed beofre all else in reality, being a mathematical being does not mean he existed before souls."
Not really a good reason since there are various characters besides those legendary Pokemon that existed before existence of all life existed and they still don't have that immunity on their profiles.

  • "And it has its own page to be specific, like how there is a page for elemental manipukation, heat manipulkation and fire manipulation. We do not give all three."
Actually, we still do and Heat & Fire Manip. is closer to Limited Temperature Manip. than Elemental Manip.

  • "If the character has multiple elemental manipulations then we simply give that, and then at most further explain by naming them instead of linking each on its own,"
We link multiple elements in Elemental Manip. like this: "Elemental Manipulation (Fire, Water, Ice, and Wood Manipulation)," its honestly not really hard.

  • "If its only for, we only give fire
If its heat and can create fire, we give heat, and mention it can make fire with it."

We put this for this case actually, "Limited Temperature Manipulation (Heat and Fire Manipulation)."

  • "Putting all possible subcategories of powers would make ability kists uneededly long and complicaed."
Then we should make them short as possible & simplify them properly, and I don't want to the "this doesn't matter" excuse or anything similar from any of your responses that relates to Powers & Abilities, thank you.
 
Bill is never said to predate or to not have a soul. He shouldn't have that immunity.

Dialga, Palkia and Giratina have immunity to it because they were created before souls were a thing, meaning that they don't have one. I fact, I don't know why you are saying that quantum physics can determine if you have a soul or not.
 
Not really a good reason since there are various characters besides those legendary Pokemon that existed before existence of all life existed and they still don't have that immunity on their profiles.

Wrong, all other pokemon were created after them when the concept of souls already existed.


Actually, we still do and Heat & Fire Manip. is closer to Limited Temperature Manip. than Elemental Manip.

No, we do not give heat manipulation for pyrokinesis, and temperature manmipulation isnt a thing on the wiki.


We link multiple elements in Elemental Manip. like this: "Elemental Manipulation (Fire, Water, Ice, and Wood Manipulation)," its honestly not really hard.


For multiple elements to further explain, not for just one element. Same with energy. If the only thing he could ever use it for is to create chaos, then its plain chaos


Then we should make them short as possible & simplify them properly, and I don't want to the "this doesn't matter" excuse or anything similar from any of your responses that relates to Powers & Abilities, thank you.

Except putting a subcategory of a power he already has is not needed. Arceus doesnt have every elemental manipulation. Why give petrification as its own power when he has a power that specificly allows petrification?
 
@DMB

  • "Bill is never said to predate or to not have a soul. He shouldn't have that immunity."
Destroying souls by devouring them is not an automatic immunity to Soul Manipulation by default since basically, a being with a more powerful soul can destroy them from the inside out + that sounds like easily flawed logic as well. Also, the other part in the first thing you mentioned is true though. The main purpose of Soul Manipulation is to affect the souls of living beings, so being both dead & alive is not immunity to it, then it has to be a form of resistance to Soul Manipulation when you really think carefully about it.

  • "Dialga, Palkia and Giratina have immunity to it because they were created before souls were a thing, meaning that they don't have one. I fact, I don't know why you are saying that quantum physics can determine if you have a soul or not."
Why wasn't something like that already mentioned in their profiles? And for the second thing, when did I ever claimed that....? I never it mentioned that misinterpretation you made anywhere on this comment section.

@Ricsi-viragosi

  • "Wrong, all other pokemon were created after them when the concept of souls already existed."
I literally said characters in general, not other pokemon, you missed the point by a long shot and it still stands.

  • "No, we do not give heat manipulation for pyrokinesis, and temperature manmipulation isnt a thing on the wiki."
Don't take an example too literally and nobody said that. Also, another common ability that we don't have on on this wiki...sigh.

  • "For multiple elements to further explain, not for just one element. Same with energy. If the only thing he could ever use it for is to create chaos, then its plain chaos"
No thanks, I'm not going back with the "Weirdness = Chais"-related argumrnts which I already refuted hours enougb, enough of that please. Limited Energy Creation stays.

  • "Except putting a subcategory of a power he already has is not needed. Arceus doesnt have every elemental manipulation. Why give petrification as its own power when he has a power that specificly allows petrification?"
Blame the wiki if you want to complain about it so bad. So what if Petrification has its own page? It's not the end of the world and if you don't want to complain to the wiki about it, otherwise I suggest you should get over it & drop it please as this topic will continue no longer, thank you.
 
I literally said characters in general, not other pokemon, you missed the point by a long shot and it still stands.


please tell me a character stated to predate souls not having resustence to it them

No thanks, I'm not going back with the "Weirdness = Chais"-related argumrnts which I already refuted hours enougb, enough of that please. Limited Energy Creation stays.

Exept you cannot just decide what stays and what doesn't. And the refute was not aknowledged here, so we simply outvote you in numbers.

Blame the wiki if you want to complain about it so bad. So what if Petrification has its own page? It's not the end of the world and if you don't want to complain to the wiki about it, otherwise I suggest you should get over it & drop it please as this topic will continue no longer, thank you.


What are you talking about? I am saying that giving a subcategory of a power he has is uneeded, much like listing every power ditto can mimic would be useless
 
@Ricsi

  • "please tell me a character stated to predate souls not having resustence to it them"
You missed the main point by a long shot 2x + I never even remotely claimed this + this is irrelevant to my earlier points + Strawman fallacy.

  • "Exept you cannot just decide what stays and what doesn't. And the refute was not aknowledged here, so we simply outvote you in numbers."
Numbers doesn't always matter since the majority of the powers & abilities I claimed were directly shown in Weirdmageddon as displayed by Bill Cipher himself. Also, you do realize that you're technically admitting that you didn't aknowledge the simple logic that Weirdness & Chaos are clearly 2 different terms right? No offence but your argument about it was basically showing ignorance by indirectly arguing against its definition + mix the 2 terms up while implying that they both work the same (which is considered wrong in various ways).

  • "What are you talking about? I am saying that giving a subcategory of a power he has is uneeded, much like listing every power ditto can mimic would be useless"
Sorry, it almost sounds you're implying about that petrification argument again and assuming by reading this response, its not the case then.

Continuing on with the rest of this, it honestly depends and having an in-depth explanations for various subcategories on how they work is very important. You don't want dozens of powers being merged into this 1 single power & having to read 1 huge paragraph each time until reaching to the next one. Subcategories breaks it down and makes it easier to read each individually-separated one.
 
Magi Hussie said:
@Ricsi

Continuing on with the rest of this, it honestly depends and having an in-depth explanations for various subcategories on how they work is very important. You don't want dozens of powers being merged into this 1 single power & having to read 1 huge paragraph each time until reaching to the next one. Subcategories breaks it down and makes it easier to read each individually-separated one.
Click to expand...

You missed the main point by a long shot 2x + I never even remotely claimed this + this is irrelevant to my earlier points + Strawman fallacy.

Not really a good reason since there are various characters besides those legendary Pokemon that existed before existence of all life existed and they still don't have that inmmunity on their profiles.

OK then, please explain why being a mathematical being gives immunity to soul hax.

Also, you do realize that you're technically admitting that you didn't aknowledge the simple logic that Weirdness & Chaos are clearly 2 different terms right?

We aren't talking about terms, only abilities. If we were talking about textbook terms all superpowers would count as weird. We are talking about powers, and you have yet to mention onepower that isnt covered by everything else he has and your ignoring that it isn't on this wiki at all.

Powers and abilities should not give in-deőth explaination of powers, only proof that they have it. It can be mentioned in the notable attacks section what his transmutation or all other powers do, but to give a power that is a subcategory of another one he has is completly uneeded.


And no, numbers do matter. If people aren't agreeing with you, then it cannot be added. There are people who believe bill to be tier 1, but it was decided that it is not so by the majority, so it was downgraded
 
no, because that can be objectivly proven to be true. Saying that a fictional power fits a character than another does not.
 
@Ricsi

  • "OK then, please explain why being a mathematical being gives immunity to soul hax."
Barely even close to the main point that I'm trying to explain.

  • "We aren't talking about terms, only abilities. If we were talking about textbook terms all superpowers would count as weird. We are talking about powers, and you have yet to mention onepower that isnt covered by everything else he has and your ignoring that it isn't on this wiki at all."
The abilities that are based on these terms? No, that second part you said would be mostly false. Like I said earlier, if Bill Cipher had not created & spread a wave of weirdness everywhere, then Chaos would have not occurred.

  • "Powers and abilities should not give in-de┼æth explaination of powers, only proof that they have it. It can be mentioned in the notable attacks section what his transmutation or all other powers do, but to give a power that is a subcategory of another one he has is completly uneeded."
Why would the members here click on a random link to a scans that they may not 100% understand what is it explaining about without context? A power & ability without an actual name cannot be added in the notable attacks section.

  • "And no, numbers do matter. If people aren't agreeing with you, then it cannot be added. There are people who believe bill to be tier 1, but it was decided that it is not so by the majority, so it was downgraded"
I never said numbers "never" matter, I clearly said numbers "don't always matter" as in this logic does not always work such as being in a large community like DB, for example, where you go in one of those communities, provide strong evidence which easily disproves their wank "claims" and the huge majority regardlessly still doesn't believe you. This is basically the claim you're defending.

Also, see @Lightbuster's example.
 
Barely even close to the main point that I'm trying to explain.

Then what is the point? because you said he should have immunity to soul hax and we said that nothing about him implies that he is souless.


The abilities that are based on these terms? No, that second part you said would be mostly false. Like I said earlier, if Bill Cipher had not created & spread a wave of weirdness everywhere, then Chaos would have not occurred.


weird

w╔¬əd

adjective


suggesting something supernatural; unearthly.

"weird, inhuman sounds"

synonyms: uncanny, eerie, unnatural, preternatural, supernatural, unearthly, other-worldly, unreal, ghostly, mysterious, mystifying, strange, abnormal, unusual; More


Why would the members here click on a random link to a scans that they may not 100% understand what is it explaining about without context? A power & ability without an actual name cannot be added in the notable attacks section.

You know that thing called "notable attacks"? thats the place to explain that stuff.

I never said numbers "never" matter, I clearly said numbers "don't always matter" as in this logic does not always work such as being in a large community like DB, for example, where you go in one of those communities, provide strong evidence which easily disproves their wank "claims" and the huge majority regardlessly still doesn't believe you. This is basically the claim you're defending.

I am saying that if others do not agree with whatyou said than its not going to be added. Say that something is downgrade of wank , if people do not agree with it, then it will not be added, much like 2B alien X will not be added whiteout further feats
 
@Ricsi

  • "Then what is the point? because you said he should have immunity to soul hax and we said that nothing about him implies that he is souless."
(Read the whole paragraph first before responsing back) The point is I changed my mind about quantum uncertainty (being both alive & dead) being an immunity but rather just a form of resistance which I explained my reasons why to @DMB, just as predating souls should be just a form of resistance to Soul Manipulation as well and never an automatic immunity to the abilitiy since it has obvious flaws. Also, you should clearly know that I'm discussing it with @DMB since this is the question he asked first and should the only one that is supposed to answer this, mind you.

  • "weird
w╔¬əd

adjective


suggesting something supernatural; unearthly.

"weird, inhuman sounds"

synonyms: uncanny, eerie, unnatural, preternatural, supernatural, unearthly, other-worldly, unreal, ghostly, mysterious, mystifying, strange, abnormal, unusual; More"

Thanks, this further backed up my points + proved that it isn't considered as only a "subjective" term since Bill Cipher using weirdness can be and was used to cause supernatural events to occur, so I rest my case there.

  • "You know that thing called "notable attacks"? thats the place to explain that stuff."
You completely ignored what I just said & I just stated reasons against that.

  • "I am saying that if others do not agree with whatyou said than its not going to be added. Say that something is downgrade of wank , if people do not agree with it, then it will not be added, much like 2B alien X will not be added whiteout further feats"
And I'm saying that this logic is not always (sometimes not = not always =/= never) applicable in debates nor content revisions and your second statement literally ignores the main point of my explanation and mentions the complete opposite of it.
 
(Read the whole paragraph first before responsing back) The point is I changed my mind about quantum uncertainty (being both alive & dead) being an immunity but rather just a form of resistance which I explained my reasons why to @DMB, just as predating souls should be just a form of resistance to Soul Manipulation as well and never an automatic immunity to the abilitiy since it has obvious flaws. Also, you should clearly know that I'm discussing it with @DMB since this is the question he asked first and should the only one that is supposed to answer this, mind you.


No, being alive or dead does not give resistance to soul manipulation, which is why type 7 is worthless on its own while facing soul haxers. And existing before the concept of souls means you do not have one.


Thanks, this further backed up my points + proved that it isn't considered as only a "subjective" term since Bill Cipher using weirdness can be and was used to cause supernatural events to occur, so I rest my case there.


Exept every superpower would fit the description. And that is just reality warping. Plus it is subjective, because what view assupernatural does not coincide with the fictional worlds. Seriously, you want to add it? Ask for the skill to get a page


You completely ignored what I just said & I just stated reasons against that.


Your reason involves scans, which I did not even mention. Notable attacks is made to describe a power in depth and explain its mechanics and possible weaknesess, scans are only a plus.


And I'm saying that this logic is not always (sometimes not = not always =/= never) applicable in debates nor content revisions and your second statement literally ignores the main point of my explanation and mentions the complete opposite of it.

Wellm not always does not aply here, as crts cannot be aplied whitout the agreement of either admins or the majority.
 
@Ricsi

  • "No, being alive or dead does not give resistance to soul manipulation, which is why type 7 is worthless on its own while facing soul haxers. And existing before the concept of souls means you do not have one."
The main purpose of Soul Manipulation is to affect the souls of living beings, being both dead & alive would clearly allow you to have resistance against that ability and again, this is not your question you're supposing to be responding back. This question is for only @DMB who should be actually answering this.

  • "Exept every superpower would fit the description. And that is just reality warping. Plus it is subjective, because what view assupernatural does not coincide with the fictional worlds. Seriously, you want to add it? Ask for the skill to get a page"
Except that would be false in this case and no, Weirdness is rather considered as mainly its own category despite being loosely associated with reality warping in a few way. I did told you to stop with continuing this argument as its getting us nowhere again and delaying the thread due to its repetitiveness.

  • "Your reason involves scans, which I did not even mention. Notable attacks is made to describe a power in depth and explain its mechanics and possible weaknesess, scans are only a plus."
That's literally not the only & not the important thing I mentioned, which is why I stated that you completely ignored it. The thing is that I'm specifically referring to Powers & Abilities, so "notable attacks" is currently irrelevant in this part of the argument. You can't leave random links without context in the Powers and Abilites section and expect the members here to click on them & 100% understand what its trying to show or explain to them.

Also, once again (I really don't want to repeat this), a power & ability without an actual name cannot be added in the notable attacks section.

*"Wellm not always does not aply here, as crts cannot be aplied whitout the agreement of either admins or the majority."

"Not always" almost always applies and reread my explanation from earlier about this carefully before giving responses like these.
 
Being dead and alive sounds more like type 5 than it does soul manip resistance.

How about we just call it weirdness manipulation, while linking it to chaos manipulation? Like this Weirdness Manipulation. Gets both points across, and I'm pretty sure I've seen characters with powers listed in that manner.

Ignoring that point since it is irrelevant to me. Not interested in "notable attacks".

No, that isn't how crt should work. It shouldn't be based on who has the most votes, it should be based on evaluation, and finding out which side has the most sensible argument. Not: "We decide this because a bunch of people think it's true." Why people think it is true is whats important, not how many.
 
Being dead and alive sounds more like type 5 than it does soul manip resistance.

How about we just call it weirdness manipulation, while linking it to chaos manipulation? Like this Weirdness Manipulation. Gets both points across, and I'm pretty sure I've seen characters with powers listed in that manner.

Ignoring that point since it is irrelevant to me. Not interested in "notable attacks".

No, that isn't how crt should work. It shouldn't be based on who has the most votes, it should be based on evaluation, and finding out which side has the most sensible argument. Not: "We decide this because a bunch of people think it's true." Why people think it is true is whats important, not how many.
 
@Lightbuster

  • "Being dead and alive sounds more like type 5 than it does soul manip resistance."
Type 5 is transcending life & death, not being both alive & dead simultaneously and Soul Manipulation mainly affects living beings and being both dead & alive would allow a person to have resistance to that ability.

  • "How about we just call it weirdness manipulation, while linking it to chaos manipulation? Like this Weirdness Manipulation. Gets both points across, and I'm pretty sure I've seen characters with powers listed in that manner."
I disagreed with this option a long time ago, I prefer mentioning Weirdness Inducement without being linked and mentioned alongside with Weirdmageddon in the notable attack section.

  • "No, that isn't how crt should work. It shouldn't be based on who has the most votes, it should be based on evaluation, and finding out which side has the most sensible argument. Not: "We decide this because a bunch of people think it's true." Why people think it is true is whats important, not how many."
^ Yet @Ricsi keeps continuing on ignoring that clear fact after I just explained him something similar to this response.
 
Magi Hussie said:
@Lightbuster
  • "No, that isn't how crt should work. It shouldn't be based on who has the most votes, it should be based on evaluation, and finding out which side has the most sensible argument. Not: "We decide this because a bunch of people think it's true." Why people think it is true is whats important, not how many."
.
Click to expand...
Type 5 is transcending life & death, not being both alive & dead simultaneously and Soul Manipulation mainly affects living beings and being both dead & alive would allow a person to have resistance to that ability.

The main purpose of Soul Manipulation is to affect the souls of living beings, being both dead & alive would clearly allow you to have resistance against that ability and again, this is not your question you're supposing to be responding back. This question is for only @DMB who should be actually answering this

No, soul hax has a hystory of affecting dead people, which is why necromancy is a thing. Meither being dead or alive gives resistance, there is no reason for it to do here, being dead does not mean you resist soul hax on its own.

^ Yet @Ricsi keeps continuing on ignoring that clear fact after I just explained him something similar to this response

That is not my point tough. My point is that either admins or majority decides which logic is more sound. There are people out there who believe in 1C bill as well. Majority disagreed with the logic behind it. Because if the majority disagrees with an evalutation then it will not be added


hat's literally not the only & not the important thing I mentioned, which is why I stated that you completely ignored it. The thing is that I'm specifically referring to Powers & Abilities, so "notable attacks" is currently irrelevant in this part of the argument. You can't leave random links without context in the Powers and Abilites section and expect the members here to click on them & 100% understand what its trying to show or explain to them.


But that is not how it works, you do not give links or explainations in powers and abilities, at most a throw away line to prove it exists. If it needs to be explained then it needs to be explained in notable abilities, not powers and abilities.
 
@Ricsi

  • "No, soul hax has a hystory of affecting dead people, which is why necromancy is a thing."
Then resistance to Necromancy for Bill Cipher as well. A necromancer cannot affect a being who is alive and a Soul Manipulator cannot affect a being who is dead.

  • "Meither being dead or alive gives resistance, there is no reason for it to do here, being dead does not mean you resist soul hax on its own."
^ This proves my point further as being both alive & dead is a form of resistance to both soul manip. and necromancy.

  • "That is not my point tough. My point is that either admins or majority decides which logic is more sound. There are people out there who believe in 1C bill as well. Majority disagreed with the logic behind it. Because if the majority disagrees with an evalutation then it will not be added"
You're explaining this in a way that works for only your viewpoint without taking our (@Lightbuster and I) viewpoints into consideration.

  • "But that is not how it works,"
Neither does "explaining dozens of unamed abilities in Notable Attacks/Techniques (which clearly does not belong there)" works either.

  • "you do not give links or explainations in powers and abilities, at most a throw away line to prove it exists."
How will members know whether its confirmed true/reliable, especially if it could be speculated, assumed, and may even be false?

That really sounds like repetitive Burden of Proof which needs to stop tbh.

  • "If it needs to be explained then it needs to be explained in notable abilities, not powers and abilities."
We only have Notable Attacks/Techniques for this wiki and that's not what we use it for.

@Edward

  • "Why are we debating powers that don't exist again?
Haventbeen following it that well"

Back at it again with the "I never heard on this power & its not on this wiki, so therefore it doesn't exist," logic. Dude, hundreds of common abilities doesn't exist here, so its pointless to claim that.
 
Then resistance to Necromancy for Bill Cipher as well. A necromancer cannot affect a being who is alive and a Soul Manipulator cannot affect a being who is dead.

Both of those statements are absolutly false. Prehaps in some verses, but they can very much affect alive and dead. Being dead does not make you souless.

^ This proves my point further as being both alive & dead is a form of resistance to both soul manip. and necromancy.

we asume Ainz Ooal Gow has a soul because it wasn't stated otherwise.

Oh and look what I found on the definition o necromancy!

  • Manipulation of Souls: A form that targets the soul rather than the body, it allows the Necromancer to summon, control, and instill the souls of the dead in various objects and living beings. In the most advanced cases, the necromancer is able to manipulate not only the souls of the dead, but still living beings, bringing them under their thrall or killing them by tearing out their soul entirely.


You're explaining this in a way that works for only your viewpoint without taking our (@Lightbuster and I) viewpoints into consideratio

I am not saying you cannot present your points. A crtis about presenting your ideas, and having them either accepted or rejected.


How will members know whether its confirmed true/reliable, especially if it could be speculated, assumed, and may even be false?

As I already said, explaining them in notable attacks. Look at here, where the character only has skills that can be explained with one line explained, and everything else is explained in notable attacks

We only have Notable Attacks/Techniques for this wiki and that's not what we use it for.


Exept that Ant allowed me to use it so.
 
First off, neither type 7 or 5 give resistance to Soul Manipulation.

Second, why are we mentioning weirdness manipulation again? It's not on this wiki, and it's either put in with Reality Warping or Chaos Manipulation.
 
@Ricsi-viragosi

  • "Both of those statements are absolutly false. Prehaps in some verses, but they can very much affect alive and dead."
That's Mortality Manipulation dude, Necromancy mainly involves anything related to the dead only.

  • "Being dead does not make you souless."
Back at it again with the random strawman of something I never said and this is why you r people's claims/points throughly more often.

  • "we asume Ainz Ooal Gown has a soul because it wasn't stated otherwise."
Dude, I literally never said Bill Cipher has no soul, stop with that strawman.

  • "Oh and look what I found on the definition o necromancy!
Manipulation of Souls: A form that targets the soul rather than the body, it allows the Necromancer to summon, control, and instill the souls of the dead in various objects and living beings. In the most advanced cases, the necromancer is able to manipulate not only the souls of the dead, but still living beings, bringing them under their thrall or killing them by tearing out their soul entirely."

You mean VSBW's definition of Necromancy? Why am I not surprised? (Time to see what excuse you have for this one)

The thing is that Necromancy is a form of magic while Soul Manip. does or does not require the use of magic. Keyword: Advanced, so in that context, only high-level Necromancers can do this and that's technically manipulating mortality at that level. Yet again, you given me even more proof & further support that being both alive & dead without a doubt does gives you resistance to Necromancy and Soul Manipulation. Most (by "most," I specifically mean the people who are not high-leveled) necromancers would have a hard time using their magic against someone who is half alive and same logic applies for most Soul Manipulators against someone who is half dead, so I rest my case there and I'm very close to wrapping up this debate as well.

  • "I am not saying you cannot present your points. A crtis about presenting your ideas, and having them either accepted or rejected."
Stop. Only. Focusing. On. Your. Viewpoint. And. Focus. On. Our. Viewpoints. As. Well.

When debating/arguing about something against a biased community that does not believe in the truth and you disproven their all of their points with strong evidence and the majority does not agree with you without evidence to back up their personal opinions is when "majority > minority" logic obviously cannot be applied which is basically what we have been trying to tell you this whole time.

  • "As I already said, explaining them in notable attacks. Look at here, where the character only has skills that can be explained with one line explained, and everything else is explained in notable attacks"
Once again, Notable Attacks/Techniques is irelevant in this part of the debate + Without scans/links/sources/justification/actual evidence/proof? That's still worse + This is only about Powers & Abilities, not about about the Notable Attacks/Techniques, try to stay on topic + This is not what we use this section for.

  • "Exept that Ant allowed me to use it so."
Good grief, now you're pulling the Appealing to Authority on this one. Dude, no one mentioned anything about restricting to which section can you use, the only thing I am telling you is don't improperly use the Notable Attacks/Techniques section if its clearly not supposed to be used like that.

@Edward

  • "First off, neither type 7 or 5 give resistance to Soul Manipulation."
Why are you mentioning this if nobody is making an argument about that....?

  • "Second, why are we mentioning weirdness manipulation again? It's not on this wiki, and it's either put in with Reality Warping or Chaos Manipulation."
Weirdness Inducement (Not Manipulation) will be mentioned alongside in the description of Weirdmageddon in the notable attack section. Also no, Weirdness =/= Reality Warping & Weirdness =/= Chaos (I already refuted "Weirdness = Chaos" argument a long time ago and no, we are not continuing any arguments relating to that topic since its pointless & waste of time, so no thanks).
 
"That's Mortality Manipulation dude, Necromancy mainly involves anything related to the dead only."

Check the wiki definition, as that is a direct quote from it.later on you say that i am using this wikis definition, and let me ask you: why are you on this wiki? Because aparently using its definitions is not a valod point.

"Back at it again with the random strawman of something I never said and this is why you r people's claims/points throughly more often."

You said soul manipulation cannot affect the dead, wich is only true to the souless

"Stop. Only. Focusing. On. Your. Viewpoint. And. Focus. On. Our. Viewpoints. As. Well."

But I am. Edward does not agree with soul resistance and dmb also disagreed with your points.

"Once again, Notable Attacks/Techniques is irelevant in this part of the debate + Without scans/links/sources/justification/actual evidence/proof? That's still worse + This is only about Powers & Abilities, not about about the Notable Attacks/Techniques, try to stay on topic + This is not what we use this section for"

First, yes it has to do with it. You explain the powers there. By extension, giving scans, explaining its limitations etc is done there.

Secondly, ant had zero problems with it. You cannot say that it cannot be used for that when the dude who made it says thst it can, ANT is the one making the rules here.


"Why are you mentioning this if nobody is making an argument about that....?"

Let me give you another quote then:"Soul Manipulator cannot affect a being who is dead." type 7 means your dead.
 
@Ricsi

  • "Check the wiki definition, as that is a direct quote from it.later on you say that i am using this wikis definition, and let me ask you: why are you on this wiki? Because aparently using its definitions is not a valod point."
Once again you decide to make another strawman and I assumed I said that using definitions cannot be considered as valid points.

  • "You said soul manipulation cannot affect the dead, wich is only true to the souless"
Soul Manipulation doesn't affect the souls of the dead regardless as that's only possible through mainly Necromancy and Mortality manip.

  • "But I am. Edward does not agree with soul resistance and dmb also disagreed with your points."
This is specifically about Lightbuster and I response to you abou...wait a second....wow. This is just what I expected from you. I just love how you nitpicked one part of the response, completely ignored the other just to show how objectively oblivious you are (no offence but it seems you keep doing this too much on purpose repetitively) over certain points, and gave me an irrelvant answer to something I mentioned earlier for this response.

Honestly, your "Majority > Minority always" claim is about as accurate as saying "Appealing to Popularity is always right."

  • "First, yes it has to do with it. You explain the powers there. By extension, giving scans, explaining its limitations etc is done there.
Secondly, ant had zero problems with it. You cannot say that it cannot be used for that when the dude who made it says thst it can, ANT is the one making the rules here."

(Read the whole thing before you actually answer first, thx) Does all of Bill Cipher's attacks/abilities have actual names? No, only a very few of them exist (literally only 2 of his abilities actually has names) and only those can be added to the Notable Attacks section while every other unamed ability will be explained & be shown with scans provided in the powers and abilities section + Powers and Abilities is one of the first sections people see when they read through a VSBW character profile and your idea will make the Powers and Abilities section less reliable and take far more effort on it than necessary + we have been doing this method for years, so honestly there's nothing you can say will change that, so...

Appealing to Authority 2×, stop throwing Admins into debates they never suggested upon being a part of. You know better than that.

  • "Let me give you another quote then:"Soul Manipulator cannot affect a being who is dead." type 7 means your dead."
Okay, type 7 + Resistance to Soul Manipulation and Necromancy (Exists as a state of Quantum Uncertainty, as being dead makes one resistant to the effects of Soul Manipulation from most Soul Manipulators who are unable to use their ability on dead entities whereas as being alive makes one resistant to the effects of Necromancy casted by necromancers due to most of them unable to use their magic on living beings). There, now everybody is satisfied now.


Also, keyword: "most," not "all"
 
Side-Note, I don't think it should be "Low-Godly with the Nightmare Realm"

Cause it's not the Nightmare Realm recreating Bill's body is it? It's Bill.

Should just be straight Low-Godly.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Bill Cipher CRT
Replies
13
Views
3K
VIZION99
Lord_Farquaad69420
Gravity falls: Bill Cipher a/p downgrade
Replies
39
Views
2K
Monsters_fight
Monsters_fight
StrymULTRA
Bill Cipher addition
Replies
23
Views
1K
AbaddonTheDisappointment
AbaddonTheDisappointment
ShionAH
Minor Bill Cipher Additions
2
Replies
41
Views
2K
Ti58
Ti58
MaybeWantsToEdit
Immeasurable Bill Cipher has Blaring Problems
2 3
Replies
109
Views
6K
StrymULTRA
StrymULTRA
Back
Top