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Bill Cipher revisions

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@Monarch Laciel ""with a snap of my fingers" is just an expression of doing something quickly and easily."

Yea...if he wasn't actually doing that literally.

"It doesn't literally mean Bill has a special power that will instantly kill someon..."

(Start at 1:05): ttps://youtu.be/NOFPEMYQJRk

You were saying?
 
Kaltias said:
That's not death manipulation
Click to expand...
You're causing someone's death with just by snapping your fingers without using any normal/traditional method to kill them, how is that not Death Inducement?
 
Nightmare manipulation is a subcategory of dream manipulation, but it can be specified.

If he litiraly turns into a shadow then i do not see why it is not shapeshifting


Data manipulation can alter media as long as well controlled enough. And we have a page for tecnocomunication manipulation?

We only use abilities listed by this wiki, so it isnt, and hes weirdness is pretty much chaos.


Having a bidy made out of pure energy can possibly mean that neither part of his body is more important than the other, but beyond that, it is nothing combat amplicable

Bill created a rule gideon could not break, and comand manipulation isnt a thing, either.

Voice manipulation is still sound manipulation. Has he shown to change it how he wants? Is not, then it really shouldnt be an ability.


Exept he does not know quiet a few things, like the whole fake stan that got him killed, him not knowing the barrier around the mystery shack robot and its weaknes, not knowing that dippers body weakness is tickling, and that mabel was going to tickle her etc.

Look at law manipulations page, it litiraly has realit, warping and probability manipulation as possible subcategories of it.

  • "Can create magical chains using magic is creation."
He can create alive items as well, so creation.


He's a 2-A being that possesses infinite power, how can't he do that...?

Thats not how burden of proof works.

Atransforming people into flags is transmutation.


If he already knew everything exept a very fe things he would not need to read others mind.


Why would stopping organs from working a slow death?
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
"Low-Godly with the Nightmare Realm" is alright, but likely not combat aplicable
Click to expand...

I mean, weirdmaggedon literally can't happen unless Bill has the Nightmare Realm fused with the multiverse. Otherwise Bill is just a disembodied consciousness, with limited power in the physical world.
 
I am fine with Azathoth's conclusions.

Is anybody experienced interested in editing the profile page?
 
@Ricsi-viragosi

  • "Nightmare manipulation is a subcategory of dream manipulation, but it can be specified."
Okay, if you will be satifised with this, then Nightmare Inducement will be linked to that page.

  • "If he litiraly turns into a shadow then i do not see why it is not shapeshifting"
Its basically just Stealth (without having to change your shape) + Limited Darkness Manip. Shapeshifting is irrelvant.

  • "Data manipulation can alter media as long as well controlled enough. And we have a page for tecnocomunication manipulation?"
2 different meanings and actually, Data Manip. is a sub-power of that.

  • "We only use abilities listed by this wiki, so it isnt, and hes weirdness is pretty much chaos."
Weirdness: the quality of being very strange.

Chaos: complete disorder and confusion

Not even remotely the same nor is it synonymous to each other. Regardless, both abilities are still gonna be added, so that should be enough.

  • "Having a bidy made out of pure energy can possibly mean that neither part of his body is more important than the other, but beyond that, it is nothing combat amplicable"
The thing is that either both of Bill Cipher's bodies are made out of pure energy, or its either one or the other.

  • "Bill created a rule gideon could not break, and comand manipulation isnt a thing, either."
Okay, Law Inducement it is.

  • "Voice manipulation is still sound manipulation. Has he shown to change it how he wants? Is not, then it really shouldnt be an ability."
Yea, he did this when he shapeshifted into Soos and sounded exactly like him.

  • "Exept he does not know quiet a few things, like the whole fake stan that got him killed, him not knowing the barrier around the mystery shack robot and its weaknes, not knowing that dippers body weakness is tickling, and that mabel was going to tickle her etc."
They look exactly the same and Bill Cipher got distracted by a deal he couldn't resist. Yea, he didn't notice the barrier but didfigured out its weakness all by himself. The last one was exception, he never possessed a human body in a long time.

  • "Look at law manipulations page, it litiraly has realit, warping and probability manipulation as possible subcategories of it."
Ik.

  • "He can create alive items as well, so creation."
I suppose that seems fair.

  • "Thats not how burden of proof works."
I never claimed that.

  • "Atransforming people into flags is transmutation."
Wait nvm, you're right.

  • "If he already knew everything exept a very fe things he would not need to read others mind."
That's why Bill Cipher has Nigh-Omniscience but not Omniscience, and he has already shown the requirements for Nigh-Omniscience.

  • "Why would stopping organs from working a slow death?"
It depends on which organs he might affect and again, this is kind of irrevelant as he's trying to kill them instantly.
 
Updated the accepted list of abilities that are considered acceptable and left the remaining powers & abilities on the other list since they have not been mentioned yet & still being discussed.

@DMB It could be just both. .
 
Its basically just Stealth (without having to change your shape) + Limited Darkness Manip. Shapeshifting is irrelvant.

No, darkness manipulation does not entail becoming a shadow.


2 different meanings and actually, Data Manip. is a sub-power of that.

Firstly, not completly different (works on the same basis) , secondly, data manipulation is not the subpower, its the other way around.


Weirdness: the quality of being very strange.

Chaos: complete disorder and confusion

Not even remotely the same nor is it synonymous to each other. Regardless, both abilities are still gonna be added, so that should be enough.

Weirness is not an ability, and it is a subjective quality that would be given to nearly every character on the wiki, exept it isnt, because we inly give powers that are on tge wiki

The thing is that either both of Bill Cipher's bodies are made out of pure energy, or its either one or the other.

Exept that changes nothing, what a body is made out of does not mean its intangible. Mindscaper bill is a plain out a ghost, as he himself described it.

Bills body, even if made out of energy, has shown to be corporeal. Diagon id not incorporeal and he is made out of energy to

Yea, he did this when he shapeshifted into Soos and sounded exactly like him.

That is just shapeshifting.

They look exactly the same and Bill Cipher got distracted by a deal he couldn't resist. Yea, he didn't notice the barrier but didfigured out its weakness all by himself. The last one was exception, he never possessed a human body in a long time

That is not how it works, a night-omniscient knows past present and future. Him being distracted does not change that he should have known before stan was even born, because otherwise its just him being well informed.


That's why Bill Cipher has Nigh-Omniscience but not Omniscience, and he has already shown the requirements for Nigh-Omniscience.

No, night omnicsiense means that he knows everything that is not higher then him in the pecking order and very few informations. He lacks far too much knowlege to be night omnisient.


It depends on which organs he might affect and again, this is kind of irrevelant as he's trying to kill them instantly.

No, if he affects hearth and brain he can kill instantly.
 
It has no impact on the story, and Bill has never once used it to his own advantage. It's closer to a 4th wall break than to actual plot manipulation.
 
@Ricsi

  • "No, darkness manipulation does not entail becoming a shadow."
That's literally found under Darkness Manip. and anyine who is at least an expert at using this ability could easily do that.

  • "Firstly, not completly different (works on the same basis) , secondly, data manipulation is not the subpower, its the other way around."
Media =/= Data & the second thing you mentioned is false regardless,so there's really no argument. Moving on.

  • "Weirness is not an ability, and it is a subjective quality that would be given to nearly every character on the wiki, exept it isnt, because we inly give powers that are on tge wiki"
No, not exactly. Weirdmageddon is one of the best examples that Weirdness is indeed an ability. There are various powers like this one that people usually & commonly use that are not found in this wiki.

  • "Exept that changes nothing, what a body is made out of does not mean its intangible. Mindscaper bill is a plain out a ghost, as he himself described it.
Bills body, even if made out of energy, has shown to be corporeal. Diagon id not incorporeal and he is made out of energy to"

There's clearly nothing wrong with my suggestion for Bill Cipher's Non-Coporeality and Intangibility, so it stay the way it is since this not sufficient enoygh evidence to disprove that it should be any different. Moving on.

  • "That is just shapeshifting."
I was clearly referring to how Bill Cipher made his voice sound exactly like Soos, so I was correct on that. Moving on.

  • "That is not how it works, a night-omniscient knows past present and future. Him being distracted does not change that he should have known before stan was even born, because otherwise its just him being well informed."
Which Bill Cipher literally displayed throughout the series, like for example, he already knows about Dipper's past experiences with Mabel and don't get me started of how he sees through the future (which he has done a couple of times) since he displayed this during his first debut in the show. Lastly, Bill Cipher sees everything dude (Yes, Bill Cipher can see from every single cameo & drawn versions of himself: http://gravityfalls.wikia.com/wiki/Bill_Cipher#Cameos), just because he's not there doesn't mean he can't see you. Bill Cipher doesn't have the Eye of Providence for nothing. So moving on.

  • "No, night omnicsiense means that he knows everything that is not higher then him in the pecking order and very few informations. He lacks far too much knowlege to be night omnisient."
Bill Cipher doesn't know a few things not a lot of things (stop exaggerating, thx) and even then, this isn't enough to disprove him being Nigh-Omniscient as his intelligence continuously increases everyday as like he said, "THE MORE I SEE, THE MORE I KNOW." So moving on.

  • "No, if he affects hearth and brain he can kill instantly."
Yea but regardless, this is still considered irrelvant though as this will not disprove him having Death Inducement. Also, claiming that Bill Cipher making someone instantly die just by snapping his fingers is not considered death inducdment is like saying Infinity War Thanos killing half of the universe by snappping his fingers isn't death incducement either.

@DMB I suppose you're right, I might as well remove it from the list then.
 
Once again, updated the accepted list of abilities that are considered acceptable and there's only 10 things left to be discussed and after that, we're done.
 
That's literally found under Darkness Manip. and anyine who is at least an expert at using this ability could easily do that.

Please qoutw the part that describes such power on its page. A link to it too.

No, not exactly. Weirdmageddon is one of the best examples that Weirdness is indeed an ability. There are various powers like this one that people usually & commonly use that are not found in this wiki.

No, superpowers arent allowed to be added unless on the wiki, and no, weirdmageddon was reality warpin, chaos manipulation and animation mostly. Also, nearly every character in the wiki fits the dictionary definition of weirdness.

There's clearly nothing wrong with my suggestion for Bill Cipher's Non-Coporeality and Intangibility, so it stay the way it is since this not sufficient enoygh evidence to disprove that it should be any different. Moving on.

No, 11A bill is lower dimensional, which is why he cannot interacts with phisical matter. 2A bill is a 3D version which is shown to be solid, what he is made out of does not change direct showings.

I was clearly referring to how Bill Cipher made his voice sound exactly like Soos, so I was correct on that. Moving on.

But that is just shapeshifting. Nearly all users of it can change their voice to mimic that of others.


Which Bill Cipher literally displayed throughout the series, like for example, he already knows about Dipper's past experiences with Mabel and don't get me started of how he sees through the future (which he has done a couple of times) since he displayed this during his first debut in the show. Lastly, Bill Cipher sees everything dude (Yes, Bill Cipher can see from every single cameo & drawn versions of himself: http://gravityfalls.wikia.com/wiki/Bill_Cipher#Cameos), just because he's not there doesn't mean he can't see you. Bill Cipher doesn't have the Eye of Providence for nothing. So moving on.

But that is still not the point, he directly showed that he doesnt know everything about the future, only showing a few pics and showing lack of knowlege of it later on.


Bill Cipher doesn't know a few things not a lot of things (stop exaggerating, thx) and even then, this isn't enough to disprove him being Nigh-Omniscient as his intelligence continuously increases everyday as like he said, "THE MORE I SEE, THE MORE I KNOW." So moving on.

I do not think you even understand how much you have to know to be night omnicsient. If he is constantly learning then he has stuff to constantly learn.
 
@Ricsi

  • "Please qoutw the part that describes such power on its page. A link to it too."
Claiming that becoming a shadow is not under Darkness Manip. makes as much sense as someone who embodies Darkness & manipulates it skillfully cannot become a shadow and somehow requires proof.

  • "No, superpowers arent allowed to be added unless on the wiki, and no, weirdmageddon was reality warpin, chaos manipulation and animation mostly. Also, nearly every character in the wiki fits the dictionary definition of weirdness."
The first part in this paragraph you said sounds very ironic and literally a huge importance to all character profiles. Weirdmageddon also (keyword: also) uses Weirdness which is basically the entire point of the ability itself and I accepted both Weirdness + Chaos Manipulation, so your arguing against someone for no major or any actually good reason at all. The last thing you said is false, not everyone can simply use/have weirdness as an energy source or as an ability unlike such characters like Bill Cipher and Uncle Grandpa especially, who actually can.

  • "No, 11A bill is lower dimensional, which is why he cannot interacts with phisical matter. 2A bill is a 3D version which is shown to be solid, what he is made out of does not change direct showings."
This disproves nothing for the extra justification of Mindscape/Dreamscape Bill Cipher's Non-Corporeality nor for the Intangiblity of True form/Physical Bill Cipher. So I'm moving on with this.

  • "But that is just shapeshifting. Nearly all users of it can change their voice to mimic that of others."
This is not the main point of what I'm talking about and you're ignoring what I'm saying. The main point in my claim is that Bill Cipher made his voice sound exactly like Soos (Limited Voice Manip.) and that's it. There's nothing else you should mention besides that and no, nobody can perfectly mimic someone's voice in seconds.

So I'm moving on with this as there's clearly nothing wrong with him having Limited Voice Manip.

  • "But that is still not the point, he directly showed that he doesnt know everything about the future, only showing a few pics and showing lack of knowlege of it later on.
I do not think you even understand how much you have to know to be night omnicsient. If he is constantly learning then he has stuff to constantly learn."

Now you're pulling Argumentum ad nauseum at this point and even then, you should have noticed that by now that Bill Cipher didn't have to constantly learn everything. Bill Cipher has already bee learned everything with his Nigh-Omniscience.

Bill Cipher displayed the following throughout the series of Gravity Falls which objectively proves his Nigh-Omniscience:

  • Bill Cipher is older than Time itself & has trillions of years worth of knowledge
  • Bill Cipher knows about the trillion-year-old prophecy that's about to happen in Gravity Falls
  • Bill Cipher has seen & knows the past, present, and future
  • Bill Cipher perceives, seen, aware, and has the knowledge of infinite dimensions/timelines, infinite amount of other Bill Ciphers and the infinite variations of what they do in each timeline using his All-Time Sense
  • Bill Cipher can read your Mind and knows exactly of what you're thinking right now
  • Bill Cipher has Fourth Wall Awareness
  • Bill Cipher knows basically every event that will & has occurred in Gravity Falls before anyone else know
  • Bill Cipher's Intelligence continuously increases as like he clearly just said, "THE MORE I SEE. THE MORE I KNOW" due to his All-Seeing ability through the cameos and drawn versions of himself throughout Gravity Falls. Bill Cipher doesn't have the Eye of Providence for nothing.
Since you basically made up some excuses & has not ever provide evidence to disprove my claims, any further thing you say is considered false & no offence but I'm going to have to honestly tell you that I see no point in continuously argue back and forth since your claims has been disproven. So anyways,that's a wrap with this argument and I rest my case.
 
@Steven and @Nedge Don't bump if its not passed one day yet.

Okay, its time to wrap it up. Before I do, here's what you need to know:

  • Retrocog = Opposite of Precog
  • Xeno- = "other; different in origin"
  • Psychic = "Mind"
Now that you guys understand it, Xenopsychic Reality Warping = Bending reality using the thoughts/imaginations from the minds of other people/beings. So "Xenopsychic" should be linked to Mind Manip. and linking "Reality Warping" to younowwhat page is obvious at this point guys.

  • Telecommunication Manip. relates specificially Media and I suggest that it should be linked under Information Manip.
  • Weirdness Manipulation...well, don't be surprised about this ability since yes, even Weirdness can be an ability because IIRC correctly in Uncle Grandpa, its treated as an energy source. So I have nothing else to say about that and please don't pull the "i-its not on the wiki" yea but a lot of other common abilities aren't on this wiki either, there's that as well.
Btw, this should be linked to Reality Warping since that's the closest category for it.

Here's the final list of things needed to be discussed as I previously mentioned earlier:

  • Retrocognitio (Bill shown Dipper's past experiences to Dipper about his situation with him and his sister Mabel)
  • Nightmare Inducement + Xenopyschic Reality Warping while within Mabelland which I explained it in my list of responses.
  • Telecommunication Manipulation actually according to @The real cal's explanation under Data Manipulation.
  • Limited Energy Creation and Manipulation (Creates and manipulates energy made out of pure weirdness & spreads a wave of it throughout the town of Gravity Falls; Created energy bubbles of pure madness)
  • Bill Cipher embodying a mathematical form since, by technicalities, he is made up by mathematical probability based on the amount of info. found about him since he is implied to contain numbers inside his body & geometrically-shaped as well.
  • Conceptual Perception and Possible Conceptual Creation according to @The real cal's explanation under Conceptual Manipulation
  • Likely Death Inducement (If Stanford & Stanley had not stopped Bill Cipher, he would have killed Dipper and Mabel instantly with a single snap of his fingers)
  • More justification to add to his age is that he's older than Time itself
  • I think Bill Cipher should have Type 6 Immortality when making deals since he basically takes over the bodies of his victims by transferring his consciousness into them and has control over their bodies for as long as he wants should he leave his physical form/his physical form be destroyed.
  • Durability Negation with Lasers at a molecular level (He vaporized Time Baby and reduced him to molecules)
  • Remove Intangiblity for True form/Physical Bill Cipher as he never displayed Intangibility throughout Weirdmageddon Part 1, 2, and 3 whatsoever.
  • Petrification (Turned one of the deputies in Gravity Falls into stone)
 
Magi Hussie wrote

So what about Law and Causality manipulation? Bill was basically going to re-write the laws of the multiverse so cause did not come before effect. And Low Godly fra? I'm not sure how much you discussed it.
 
@Christian Those last 10 abilities are the last things that needs to be agreed by everyone and everything else not on that list are added on the "What has been agreed upon" which is the accepted list.

@Lightbuster Everything else not mentioned on that list are on the my "What has been agreed upon" list where all powers & abilities that are accepted are placed there. I decided that "Low-Godly regen with the Nightmare Realm" should be added since that's the reason how Bill Cipher regenerated from his consciousness.
 
Claiming that becoming a shadow is not under Darkness Manip. makes as much sense as someone who embodies Darkness & manipulates it skillfully cannot become a shadow and somehow requires proof.

Having good control over something does not mean you can turn into it. And what about it being directly on its page?

The first part in this paragraph you said sounds very ironic and literally a huge importance to all character profiles. Weirdmageddon also (keyword: also) uses Weirdness which is basically the entire point of the ability itself and I accepted both Weirdness + Chaos Manipulation, so your arguing against someone for no major or any actually good reason at all. The last thing you said is false, not everyone can simply use/have weirdness as an energy source or as an ability unlike such characters like Bill Cipher and Uncle Grandpa especially, who actually can.

Weirdness is a subjective term, and as a power it simply acts as either realizy warping or chaos manipulation, it is extremly redundant. Or describe one effect weirdness has that isnt covered by his other abilities.


This disproves nothing for the extra justification of Mindscape/Dreamscape Bill Cipher's Non-Corporeality nor for the Intangiblity of True form/Physical Bill Cipher. So I'm moving on with this.

Bills dreamscape state is intangible. It shows to have a form, but it cannot be interacted with phisicaly unless the user is in a mindscaper form as well.

Bills body has been shown to be phisical, it has been hit, it has sat on a throne and has never shown to pass through objects.

This is not the main point of what I'm talking about and you're ignoring what I'm saying. The main point in my claim is that Bill Cipher made his voice sound exactly like Soos (Limited Voice Manip.) and that's it. There's nothing else you should mention besides that and no, nobody can perfectly mimic someone's voice in seconds.

Yes, but that is part of shapeshifting, every shapeshifter I can think of can do that, its still extremly redundant to add an ability that another ability already gives.


But that is still not the point, he directly showed that he doesnt know everything about the future, only showing a few pics and showing lack of knowlege of it later on.

Hell, flowey can have sound manipulation too then, he can do that. Or an, other decent shapeshifter as well.


Now you're pulling Argumentum ad nauseum at this point and even then, you should have noticed that by now that Bill Cipher didn't have to constantly learn everything. Bill Cipher has already bee learned everything with his Nigh-Omniscience.

You cannot be constantly learning with night omniscience, you already know the past present and future perfectly.

Bill Cipher displayed the following throughout the series of Gravity Falls which objectively proves his Nigh-Omniscience:

  • Bill Cipher is older than Time itself & has trillions of years worth of knowledge
That does not mean omniscience, he would need to know everything about the future as well, and I mean everything.

*Bill Cipher knows about the trillion-year-old prophecy that's about to happen in Gravity Falls

Knowing about something that happened long ago does not mean anything on its own.

*Bill Cipher has seen & knows the past, present, and future

Only parts of the future, as he obviusly didnt see his own death.

*Bill Cipher perceives, seen, aware, and has the knowledge of infinite dimensions/timelines, infinite amount of other Bill Ciphers and the infinite variations of what they do in each timeline using his All-Time Sense Feeling infinite versions of himself gives no night-omiscience, and he incredibly failed to predict and stop his own demise. *Bill Cipher can read your Mind and knows exactly of what you're thinking right now

Reading minds is not something a night omniscient should need to do, he should know everything I will think in the future as well.


*Bill Cipher has Fourth Wall Awareness #nightomiscientdeadpool

*Bill Cipher knows basically every event that will & has occurred in Gravity Falls before anyone else know

Exept mixing up stan I guess, that was just beyong hes ability to see, kr that he was going to be tickled once possesing dipper.

*Bill Cipher's Intelligence continuously increases as like he clearly just said, "THE MORE I SEE. THE MORE I KNOW" due to his All-Seeing ability through the cameos and drawn versions of himself throughout Gravity Falls. Bill Cipher doesn't have the Eye of Providence for nothing.

You cannot get constantly smarter and be night-omniscient


Since you basically made up some excuses & has not ever provide evidence to disprove my claims, any further thing you say is considered false & no offence but I'm going to have to honestly tell you that I see no point in continuously argue back and forth since your claims has been disproven. So anyways,that's a wrap with this argument and I rest my case.

Wow, you should be put into the definition of arrogance
 
@Ricsi-viragosi

  • "Having good control over something does not mean you can turn into it. And what about it being directly on its page?"
Not every single thing has to be automatically listed on a page, why do think this wiki constantly updates their pages every day?

  • "Weirdness is a subjective term, and as a power it simply acts as either realizy warping or chaos manipulation, it is extremly redundant. Or describe one effect weirdness has that isnt covered by his other abilities."
This is fiction, not irl, so a power being considered subjective is not only false but also irrelvant.

  • "Bills dreamscape state is intangible. It shows to have a form, but it cannot be interacted with phisicaly unless the user is in a mindscaper form as well.
Bills body has been shown to be phisical, it has been hit, it has sat on a throne and has never shown to pass through objects."

A disembodied consciousness is Non-Coporeal and Non-Corporeality is a type of lntangibility. so basically you're arguing against something you're defending & has already been accepted at this point. Not to mention that I'm just adding further justification to it.

Wait a second....you could actually be right about that since I just realized that not once has physical Bill has ever displayed Intangibility while having a physical form. So I'll suggest everyone that Intangiblity should be removed for physical Bill Cipher then.

  • "Yes, but that is part of shapeshifting, every shapeshifter I can think of can do that, its still extremly redundant to add an ability that another ability already gives.
Hell, flowey can have sound manipulation too then, he can do that. Or an, other decent shapeshifter as well."

Fine, I'll remove Limited Voice Manip. then.

  • "But that is still not the point, he directly showed that he doesnt know everything about the future, only showing a few pics and showing lack of knowlege of it later on.
You cannot be constantly learning with night omniscience, you already know the past present and future perfectly."

No proof of that whatsoever.

Who and when is it ever said that he's constantly learning everything that he already knows? Knowing the past meaning knowing everyone's past, not only yours and knowing the future requires a certain level of intellect to do so.

  • "Bill Cipher is older than Time itself & has trillions of years worth of knowledge
That does not mean omniscience, he would need to know everything about the future as well, and I mean everything."

When was I ever arguing for Bill Cipher having Omniscience? I clearly said I was arguing for Nigh-Omniscience several times. Bill Cipher has displayed being able to know about the future in multiple instances throughout the show.

  • "Bill Cipher knows about the trillion-year-old prophecy that's about to happen in Gravity Falls
Knowing about something that happened long ago does not mean anything on its own."

This simply supports his Nigh-Omniscience and once again, not the main reason why he's Nigh-Omniscient.

  • "Bill Cipher has seen & knows the past, present, and future
Only parts of the future, as he obviusly didnt see his own death."

Bill Cipher didn't really "died," he simply said a secret chant to prevent himself from permanently dying.

  • "Bill Cipher perceives, seen, aware, and has the knowledge of infinite dimensions/timelines, infinite amount of other Bill Ciphers and the infinite variations of what they do in each timeline using his All-Time Sense
Feeling infinite versions of himself gives no night-omiscience, and he incredibly failed to predict and stop his own demise."

Like I said, Bill Cipher's All-Time Sense supports his Nigh-Omniscience and once again, not the main reason why he's Nigh-Omniscient.

  • "Bill Cipher can read your Mind and knows exactly of what you're thinking right now
Reading minds is not something a night omniscient should need to do, he should know everything I will think in the future as well."

TOAA needed to read Thano's mind to know exactly what he requests from him, so I guess he isn't Omniscient nor can be considered Nigh-Omniscient either. So I rest my case with this terrible argument.

  • "Bill Cipher has Fourth Wall Awareness
  1. nightomiscientdeadpool"
Now you're just nitpicking to get your point across and I literally just said, reasons like these supports his Nigh-Omniscience, not the main reason why he's Nigh-Omniscient.

  • "Bill Cipher knows basically every event that will & has occurred in Gravity Falls before anyone else know
Exept mixing up stan I guess, that was just beyong hes ability to see, kr that he was going to be tickled once possesing dipper."

Bill Cipher was simply distracted over a deal he couldn't resist & he stated himself before that he has not been in a body in a long time, so that's an exception and not enough to disprove his Nigh-Omniscience.

  • "Bill Cipher's Intelligence continuously increases as like he clearly just said, "THE MORE I SEE. THE MORE I KNOW" due to his All-Seeing ability through the cameos and drawn versions of himself throughout Gravity Falls. Bill Cipher doesn't have the Eye of Providence for nothing.
You cannot get constantly smarter and be night-omniscient"

Once again, this just supports his Nigh-Omniscience, not the main reason why he's Nigh-Omniscient.

  • "Wow, you should be put into the definition of arrogance"
More like you should be put into the definition of ignorance since I can't believe you don't understand what it means to be Nigh-Omniscient and the clear, obvious requirements of being one.
 
Oh, and there is a weakness I forgot to mention. Apparently, you can be too stupid to possess for Bill. He notes that he tried before on the gnomes.
 
First things first, I noticed that many of my prwvious comments were rather... passive agressive, I suppose. I am sorry for that, just a lot of stress lately.


Not every single thing has to be automatically listed on a page, why do think this wiki constantly updates their pages every day?

Seriously, his only use of it is to turn into it. To claim that has nothing to do with shapeshifting is just wrong.

This is fiction, not irl, so a power being considered subjective is not only false but also irrelvant.

First, are you serious, are you seriously claiming that subjective interpretations of powers are not a thing in fiction?

Secondly, did you ignore what I write after? List one efect it has that arent covered by bills other abilities. If not its simply redundant.


A disembodied consciousness is Non-Coporeal and Non-Corporeality is a type of lntangibility. so basically you're arguing against something you're defending & has already been accepted at this point. Not to mention that I'm just adding further justification to it.

But bill is a 2D being, and has been shown to have a body, even if it cannot be interacted with. Not all disembodued consciusnesess are non-corporeal, as many can have an intangible body (which is why it was discussed that hitting a ghost means that you can hit am intangible or a soul). To be non-corporeal would mean that he isnt in one place qnd cannot be directly interacted with even by other intangibles. But still, this is not so important, so I will no longer discuss this, whichever is added wont change much.

No proof of that whatsoever.

Burden of proof fallacy, I need not to prive a negative.

Knowing the past meaning knowing everyone's past, not only yours and knowing the future requires a certain level of intellect to do so.

A certain level of knowlege is not night-omniscient, we dont give that to deadpool, and he can read and change the script.

When was I ever arguing for Bill Cipher having Omniscience? I clearly said I was arguing for Nigh-Omniscience several times.Bill Cipher has displayed being able to know about the future in multiple instances throughout the show.

He shouldnt just know abojut it, he should know everything about it, once again, deadpool knows the future as well through the script, doesnt mean much.


Bill Cipher didn't really "died," he simply said a secret chant to prevent himself from permanently dying.

Yes, I know he was reborn in another form in another time, but he tecnicaly died and then got ressurected.

He still didnt know everything that was going to happen.

Like I said, Bill Cipher's All-Time Sense supports his Nigh-Omniscience and once again, not the main reason why he's Nigh-Omniscient.

Yes, but not preducting his premise is a proof against it.

TOAA needed to read Thano's mind to know exactly what he requests from him, so I guess he isn't Omniscient nor can be considered Nigh-Omniscient either. So I rest my case with this terrible argument.

That is a horrible plot point that goes against his own lore, just as like that one time someone almost stole his power, something that is obviously not aplicable to omnipotents, its because writers dont know how it works.


' 'Now you're just nitpicking to get your point across and I literally just said, reasons like these supports his Nigh-Omniscience, not the main reason why he's Nigh-Omniscient.

I am simply refuting the points one by one, if I didnt I am pretty sure your complaint would be that I ignored the support arguments.

Bill Cipher was simply distracted over a deal he couldn't resist & he stated himself before that he has not been in a body in a long time, so that's an exception and not enough to disprove his Nigh-Omniscience.


But he should have known in advance, he should have known that he was going to be tickled before he possesed dippers body and he should have known that the deal was a trap before he was even in hos prime.


More like you should be put into the definition of ignorance since I can't believe you don't understand what it means to be Nigh-Omniscient and the clear, obvious requirements of being one.

Then why isnt deadpool night omniscient? He knows all of the script, he sometimes wrote it!
 
The real cal howard said:
Oh, and there is a weakness I forgot to mention. Apparently, you can be too stupid to possess for Bill. He notes that he tried before on the gnomes.
Click to expand...
@The real cal Which episode mentioned about this btw?
 
@Ricsi

  • "First things first, I noticed that many of my prwvious comments were rather... passive agressive, I suppose. I am sorry for that, just a lot of stress lately."
Okay and I'm sorry for what I mentioned earlier that you may find insulting to you and still, we can't continuously keep arguing to each other about this as its getting very tiresome and repetitive.

  • "Seriously, his only use of it is to turn into it. To claim that has nothing to do with shapeshifting is just wrong."
And to claim that turning into a shadow has nothing to do with Darkness Manip. is far worse. Also dude, I don't want to repeat myself again, Shadow Stealth is basically Limited Darkness Manip. + Stealth/Camouflage and nothing else. We're moving on whether you like it or not, arguing back & forth constantly will lead to nowhere.

  • "First, are you serious, are you seriously claiming that subjective interpretations of powers are not a thing in fiction?
Secondly, did you ignore what I write after? List one efect it has that arent covered by bills other abilities. If not its simply redundant."

Not exactly and you're claiming in a way that fiction always follows irl logic and manipulating Weirdness is never an ability which is proven false already.

Weirdness can be used as an ability to affect reality, the supernatural, and natural laws. Basically, manipulating 1 thing can also lead to manipulating multiple things.

  • "But bill is a 2D being, and has been shown to have a body, even if it cannot be interacted with. Not all disembodued consciusnesess are non-corporeal, as many can have an intangible body (which is why it was discussed that hitting a ghost means that you can hit am intangible or a soul). To be non-corporeal would mean that he isnt in one place qnd cannot be directly interacted with even by other intangibles. But still, this is not so important, so I will no longer discuss this, whichever is added wont change much."
A non-corporeal being can still harm another non-corporeal being regardless & I'm only adding further justification to Mindscape/Dreamscape Bill Cipher's Non-Corporeality, so not discussing this any further was the right decision to do and thanks for understanding that.

  • "Burden of proof fallacy, I need not to prive a negative."
Yet to do or otherwise, its false until your evidence to back it up is provided.

  • "A certain level of knowlege is not night-omniscient, we dont give that to deadpool, and he can read and change the script."
Yes it is as its one of the levels of Intelligence & technically its basically the entire purpose of why there's Intelligence section in the character's profile template to know the level of intelligence a character has. Having knowledge of the script is merely a part of Fourth Wall Awareness and that alone will not give someone Nigh-Omniscience.

  • "He shouldnt just know abojut it, he should know everything about it, once again, deadpool knows the future as well through the script, doesnt mean much."
Bill Cipher does know everything about the future and the way you questioned it doesn't make sense & enough with that False analogy already.

  • "Yes, I know he was reborn in another form in another time, but he tecnicaly died and then got ressurected."
Okay, just pointing that out though.

  • "He still didnt know everything that was going to happen."
Nothing wrong with a Nigh-Omniscient being having a few minor Intellect limitations.

  • "Yes, but not preducting his premise is a proof against it."
Nothing wrong with a Nigh-Omniscient being having a few minor Intellect limitations but ok.

  • "That is a horrible plot point that goes against his own lore, just as like that one time someone almost stole his power, something that is obviously not aplicable to omnipotents, its because writers dont know how it works."
Not being able to read someone's mind is an obvious Intellect limitation.

  • "I am simply refuting the points one by one, if I didnt I am pretty sure your complaint would be that I ignored the support arguments."
I wouldn't really say that though.

  • "But he should have known in advance, he should have known that he was going to be tickled before he possesed dippers body and he should have known that the deal was a trap before he was even in hos prime."
I already mentioned that the first part is an exception & for the second part that he was clearly distracted and off-guard by this irresistible deal and they looked exactly alike.

  • "Then why isnt deadpool night omniscient? He knows all of the script, he sometimes wrote it!"
No offence but you're pretty much proving my point from earlier + False analogy.
 
I did not claim it is not darkness manipulation,at least I belive not.


I did not, I simply say that chaos and weirdness tend to work nearly the same way. With all the powers you said being already covered by others.

But why would we give a being with no consistence knowlege of the future give night omniscience if we do not give it to beings able to know the litiral script?

Not knowing the most important points in the future does go against night omnisciense, not knowing one thing is acceptable, beyond that it becomes wery streched and only really allowed if for beings higher to the night omniscient.

But a night omniscient still should know every tought one had, will have and is having.

You cannot cach a night omniscient off guard, he should have known in advance, before mabel even tought of it, before he possesed dipper. He should directly know everything at least in gravity falls, future past and present, and there being two exeptions to it is two too many.
 
@Ricsi

  • "I did not claim it is not darkness manipulation,at least I belive not."
So there is no need to further continue this part of the argument then.

  • "I did not, I simply say that chaos and weirdness tend to work nearly the same way. With all the powers you said being already covered by others."
Doesn't mean an additional ability can't be added along with them.

  • "But why would we give a being with no consistence knowlege of the future give night omniscience if we do not give it to beings able to know the litiral script?"
I just told you this earlier, tha's not the main reason why Bill is Nigh-Omniscient as it only supports that + False Analogy for the 2nd part you said.

  • "Not knowing the most important points in the future does go against night omnisciense, not knowing one thing is acceptable, beyond that it becomes wery streched and only really allowed if for beings higher to the night omniscient.
But a night omniscient still should know every tought one had, will have and is having.

You cannot cach a night omniscient off guard, he should have known in advance, before mabel even tought of it, before he possesed dipper. He should directly know everything at least in gravity falls, future past and present, and there being two exeptions to it is two too many."

Dude, there's nothing wrong with a Nigh-Omniscient being not knowing a few minor things. Why do you think we call it "Nigh-Omniscience" for a reason?
 
No, redundant abilities do not need to be addded, it is an uneeded thing.

Night omniscience is for not knowing very few things, like chuck norris not knowing mercy, or the living tribunal not knowing TOAA.

Not knowing multiple things repetedly is a proof against it.
 
@Ricsi

  • "No, redundant abilities do not need to be addded, it is an uneeded thing."
That wouldn't be considered an redundant ability since its relevant in this case and has uses for specific characters like Bill Cipher.

  • "Night omniscience is for not knowing very few things, like chuck norris not knowing mercy, or the living tribunal not knowing TOAA.
Not knowing multiple things repetedly is a proof against it."

Not knowing 2 or 3 minor things won't change the clear fact that he is indeed Nigh-Omniscient & displayed the obvious requirements of being one and arguing about it any further is getting pointless as it will lead to nowhere.
 
What specific uses that arent covered by other abilities?

Minor thing does not entail the cause of someones defeat, nearly being hit by the one weapon that could defeat him (only not being defeated because it missed) and not knowing about a barrier that ruined everything for him
 
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