Big Mom Pirates VS Marineford (Kaido alliance)

[Superßull]

this topic was probably already spammed but whatever i'm curious also this time we have the beast pirtes around for a little hand

.

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The big mom pirates invade marineford to rescue their beloved sweet commander Smoothie (i'm picking her since her abilities aren't as fleshed out as the other sweet commanders.)

The events of the war are pretty much the same ..


- Big mom arrives from under water like heeeeeyyyy MAMAMAMAAAMAAAA

- Aokiji creates an ice platform for them to fight on

- this time it's just straigth to action no crazy revalations no chit chat no nothing just gogogo

- Big Mom imediatly unleashes her conqueror's haki

- therefore knocking out several thousand soliders and turning the tides of the battle in her favor early on

So how does it play out ?

the fodders / the low tiers / the mid tiers / the high tiers / and the top tiers

which character goes against which ?

and more importantly

Does miss THICCNESS get rescued ?

do the big mom pirates win the paramount war ?

 

[Modernmyrmidon]

following

 

[CinCameron20]

The only one who can fight the Admirals is Big Mom herself, and unless they are easily susceptible to her Fear manip and Soul manip, the Admirals should conquer her if they work together.

Katakuri's abilities would allow him to hold his own against an Admiral due to his ability to easily aim-dodge. But the other Admirals like Akainu have shown the ability to also evade attacks in a similar manner, so I think he'd go down in short order due simply to the power gap.

Cracker's Biscuit soldiers would be a massive help since they each could match and even exceed the likes of Gear 3rd Luffy.

We can probably even throw in Jinbe on Big Mom's side since he was an ally until post time-skip.

Here's the issue though: The Shichibukai are here, which includes Mihawk, Doflamingo, and Hancock.

No one, not even Katakuri is going to stand up to Mihawk, and Doflamingo alone can likely fend off the commanders by himself--hell, his nature might allow him to simply ambush Cracker, who is the crutch in this fight.

Big Mom might take out one or two of the Admirals, but having 3 Dura negating opponents that managed to dance around WB would certainly be her downfall. Not to mention if Mihawk also decides to try and fight her.

Marineford takes it mid diff. The most damage they'd take is their low tier forces being wiped out and an Admiral or two possibly being KO'd/Killed.

 

[Dr.Fix]

@Cin is right. Were this posted a little earlier I'd say the BM pirates have a good chance. With the latest changes to the Admirals the pirates are ridiculously out matched. BM's entire crew is staright up useless when even Kizaru is 1000 times stronger than her strongest commander. Mama herself could take any of the Marines 1-1 but she's out-matched 4-1 here (Garp, SenGoku, and Mihawk each equal one while the admirals combined equal another).

So yea, this should be closed on account of it is a massive stomp. Hopefully the profiles get adjusted in the future.

P:S what is stopping Kizaru right now from hitting Toto-Land, neg diff the whole population, and making it back in time for tea?

 

[Ryope]

There is no Yonko crew which can alone win against all Marineford,this is simple impossible

 

[Ryuga21]

Marines takes this. mid-diff

 

[Js250476]

Yeah Marineford wins fra

I could see an similar scenario happening if Luffy's allies all gather together to form a united army in the final war.

 

[CinCameron20]

Well, I forgot to mention Garp and Sengoku are also present, but they are seen in "reserve", sitting in the background (honestly, if they simply fought, the war would have been pretty one-sided against WB).

The marines simply have too much w/ the Shichibukai factoring in, since Doffy and Mihawk each have the AP to match or exceed the commanders in a contest of power, and Hancock/Moria/Kuma all have some form of hax that can potential one-shot all the executives.

Marines Vice Admirals and Lower wont be able to do too much except fend off executives of the BM crew, so it is up to the Admirals, Garp, Tsuru (She a beast, dont even deny it), and Sengoku if need be to deal with the commanders and BM herself.

It might even take 2 entire Yonko crews to stand a chance against ALL the marines.

 

[Dr.Fix]

@Cin the only war-lord who is still a factor here is Mihawk. Duffy is as meaningless as everyone else with the current estimates of the admirals. 2 Yonko crews stil wouldn't be enough. You'd need all five and somehow have Gura Teach and WB exising at the sametime.:

Shanks VS Mihawk

Big Mom VS SenGoku

Kong VS White Beard

Garp VS Kaido

Admirals VS Teach

Honestly none of it makes sense with what actually went down at MF. :S

 

[Ryope]

3 Admirals on Teach alone is overkill

 

[Superßull]

@Cin is right. Were this posted a little earlier I'd say the BM pirates have a good chance. With the latest changes to the Admirals the pirates are ridiculously out matched. BM's entire crew is staright up useless when even Kizaru is 1000 times stronger than her strongest commander. Mama herself could take any of the Marines 1-1 but she's out-matched 4-1 here (Garp, SenGoku, and Mihawk each equal one while the admirals combined equal another).
So yea, this should be closed on account of it is a massive stomp. Hopefully the profiles get adjusted in the future.

P:S what is stopping Kizaru right now from hitting Toto-Land, neg diff the whole population, and making it back in time for tea?

lol okay that last bit was funny kizaru may be just that fast

 

[Superßull]

There is no Yonko crew which can alone win against all Marineford,this is simple impossible

hmmmmmm Akagami no kaizoku dan .... ? i mean they were ready to take on everybody sengoku was still active kizaru and aokiji were pretty much untouched garp and the vice admirals ... but yeah fair pint i guess

 

[CinCameron20]

In terms of power-level, Marineford straight up low to mid-low diffs Big Mom's crew.

But if we throw in strategy and such, it wouldn't be THAT easy. There'd be serious losses. We also have to assume that Big Mom must be physically superior to each Admiral, and possibly low/mid diffs each 1v1 (WB bodied Akainu anyways). So while most of the top tiers on the marine-side are playing in-character against the BM pirate forces (which, while they stomp in stats, some character abilities would allow each to hold their own for some time, even in a straight up stomp match), Big Mom might take out an Admiral before we have her attacked by Sengoku + Garp or someone else.

(But tbh, BM has the initiation on her side. The marines are sitting idle waiting for her to make her move, so watch Brulee have a large portion of the forces including Mama invade from a mirror on the inside, then the commanders and rest of the forces attack from the front. An Admiral may be assassinated by BM before everyone can even properly react)

 

[Jo-Smooth]

Mom is far more durable than Whitebeard is. Attacks that mortally wounded WB (over time) would literally have no effect on Big Mom. The Admirals have their devil fruits, but Big Mom has her own as well, along with her homies. And on top of that armament haki hardening added onto her already extremely durable body. The admirals would be hard pressed to damage her with her haki defense on top of her natural defense.

As for her Sweet Commanders, Cracker's indivudual biscuit soldier alone can greatly change the tide of the battle. Let alone a countless amount of them. An individual Biscuit Soldier scales above G3 Post timeskip to Whole Cake Luffy. A far weaker version of Luffy in G2 was able to one shot a Pacifista. Cracker can clap and create an entire army of beings above G3 Luffy. Cracker himself was able to harm G4 Luffy and had the strongest or hardest Armament he'd ever faced. Including Doffy who he literally fought just before. Katakuri is just a monster. Doflamingo won't be a threat to him or Cracker at all, comparing how they performed against G4. Now how they'd do against Admirals, based on WB's crew....the two of them wouldn't be that bad. However they're outnumberd in quality. So at best they could stall for a few before they get serious. If they do get serious then they're dead. We saw that Akainu shrugged off haki infused attacks with full killing intent from a bloodlusted Marco and Vista at the same time so.......rip. I could see Katakuri lasting longer because of future sight, though we don't know how durable Cracker + Armament hardening would be (in lore, not by wiki standards where a tap from an admiral would still one shot). After that, Big Mom would get picked apart by their team work unless one or two were already taken down.

 

[CinCameron20]

@Jo

Mom being far durable doesn't mean that she can tank through attacks that melt/freeze/vape her body. She may be able to perform better than WB did since she isn't sick or too "old", but the Admirals would each be capable of posing a credible threat to her, even if 1v1ing her will result in a loss for each. Sengoku and Garp are also present. Mihawk is also there, and will likely fight her as well at some point.

In regards to Cracker, Luffy never said his haki was stronger than anything he had come across. It was discovered to be a mis-translation. Luffy simply referred to it as being "too" or "really" hard. But yes, each of his biscuit soldiers would pose a serious threat, which is why I suspect someone to attempt an assassination on him very early on. Perhaps Doflamingo, Mihawk, or ESPECIALLY Kizaru are the 3 most likely people to attempt this. None of the Vice Admirals would be able to reliably defeat a biscuit soldier, and it would be a high diff fight, so it's down to someone at least High 7-A, or one of the Low 6-B/6-B players (which there are quite a handful on the marine's side). Hell, Kuma may have low stats, but he might just pop in right next to Cracker and slap him across the world. He might even be entranced by Hancock. Many people present can possibly deal with Cracker, either directly, or through trickery.

Either way, even if we assume the Commanders wipe out the VA's and most of the Shichibukai, Mihawk and any Admiral stomp them.

 

[Ttenrr]

The Marines would win but I do believe BM chances is better than that of white beard

 

[The_Calaca]

Just a little note: I noticed that some of the God Tiers' profiles are unaccurate. Sengoku and Garp have no feats to put them as 6-Bs once their prime is past so treat them as Low 6-Bs instead.

 

[Js250476]

^ Yeah I was thinking about making a thread about making Prime keys for Garp and Sengoku. Scaling them to the admirals is probably fine.

 

[Dr.Fix]

Just a little note: I noticed that some of the God Tiers' profiles are unaccurate. Sengoku and Garp have no feats to put them as 6-Bs once their prime is past so treat them as Low 6-Bs instead.

They're old but so is WB along with sick. Big Mm isn't much younger either but I still see 6-B on her profile. Roger=Garp=WB (give or take) so I see no reason Old Garp doesn't equal old and dieing WB as a minimum.

SenGoku fought off Gura Gura BB.

 

[Dr.Fix]

Jo makes a good post but as I said before the Marines are too stacked. Even if the Admirals die off they're 3 characters far more powerful than them to battle next. They gang up on BM then no diff the rest of them. Personally I see this going to the marines with high difficulty based on feats since her forces should provide substantial assistance, but based on this site's ratings of the strongest characters by comparison they take this no difficulty, maybe low difficulty at the very most.

 

[The_Calaca]

Gura BB avoided a fight with Shanks and Sakazuki.

Garp and Sengoku fought him, so they would scale to him, but why would Teach escape from Sakazuki if he's stronger than him, can null his powers and all that?

Low 6-B fits Gura Teach. I'll create a CRT about it because he needs 3 keys.

It's true that Shirohige = Roger = Garp, but that was 24 years ago. There's no indication that Garp's still 6-B. In fact, Sengoku stopping him before he could kill Sakazuki suggests that he's above him, but Sakazuki's Low 6-B and far from being high end.

 

[Dr.Fix]

BB being low-6-B is ridiculous. He scales to the power WB had, not Akainu.

Yes, he fled from Akainu, but he also made Kuzan is subrdinate and he threatened Akainu's turf until Shanks showed up. I think we can reasonably attribute his fleeing was either out of character for plot or he simply did not want to risk any losses at this point in the game from even someone weaker than himself.

I find this scaling more reasonable

BB At leas high 7-A, likely 6-C. Defeated Ace and took Attacks from Whitebeard. His Fruit doubles the damage he receives. ; 6-C Post timeskip. Should be somewhat comparable to the other Yonko with the power of the gura gura fruit.

 

[The_Calaca]

Show me where's the proof for Kurohige having the exact same power as Shirohige.

Kuzan's subordination is an unknown factor. We shouldn't go by it since we know nothing about that at all.

He said that he wasn't prepared to face Akainu yet.

6-C? Update yourself.

Anyway, this is not the place. Like I said, we'll eventually talk about the profiles that need some adjustements.

 

[Dr.Fix]

When and where? A new scaling thread has not been posted.

 

[The_Calaca]

Because those threads have concluded. They fulfilled their main purpose. Now we'll work on the classic method, with different threads for different things instead of clutting the thread with 3 topics at the same time.

 

[Dr.Fix]

It didn't conclude. there are still at least three topics on the table which haven't been addressed:

• Improve Luffy's profile and explore avenues for scaling that may have been overlooked.
• Discussing the scaling for the Whole Cake Island characters, and Yonkou Commanders in general.
• Create Queen's and King's profiles.

Probably more than that tbh.

 

[The_Calaca]

Luffy's profile will be discussed in its own thread.

The current scaling for the Whole Cake characters is fine. I don't know what are you talking about.

Queen and King have to do something to get a profile because right now we're going by scaling alone and we'll get more feats from them. We have lots of profiles already and instead of just adding more of them with little to no content to date will only increase the work it supposes to fix any problem that might appear.

We actually have things to discuss, but like I said, these are things that deserves their own threads and not just a general thread that'd let a lot of things forgotten.

 

[Dr.Fix]

Sounds like you are going to make a lot of unilateral decisions about this. As you're Staff I can't and won't refute it. I just want to voice my disagreement and that another thread where it can all be discussed by everyone is better than waiting on multiple threads to be made and unilateral decisions.

Also this has gone way off topic. My apologies for contributing to that. Please do not respond unless its about the matchup

 

[Damage3245]

Calaca isn't the only one making decisions on it; I was primarily the one decided not to continue the general CRT threads because I felt like they had served their purpose well enough.

Apologies for responding even though you requested otherwise, but I wanted to note that.

It's fine to make a thread for specific topics (and something like making profiles for characters can even be discussed on the General Discussion thread tbh).

 

[The_Calaca]

Like I have the authority to make people obey me lol. Really funny.

 

[The_Prince_of_Counters]

Thanks to the new chapter I'm pretty sure Big Mom takes this if we give her the new thing she just got.

 

[Superßull]

In terms of power-level, Marineford straight up low to mid-low diffs Big Mom's crew.
But if we throw in strategy and such, it wouldn't be THAT easy. There'd be serious losses. We also have to assume that Big Mom must be physically superior to each Admiral, and possibly low/mid diffs each 1v1 (WB bodied Akainu anyways). So while most of the top tiers on the marine-side are playing in-character against the BM pirate forces (which, while they stomp in stats, some character abilities would allow each to hold their own for some time, even in a straight up stomp match), Big Mom might take out an Admiral before we have her attacked by Sengoku + Garp or someone else.

(But tbh, BM has the initiation on her side. The marines are sitting idle waiting for her to make her move, so watch Brulee have a large portion of the forces including Mama invade from a mirror on the inside, then the commanders and rest of the forces attack from the front. An Admiral may be assassinated by BM before everyone can even properly react)

yoooo brulee as the x factor instead of cracker ? i like it

 

[The_Calaca]

It makes a lot of sense actually. They probably don't know about the Mirror World and Brulee's ability. Put a lot of Biscuit Soldiers in there and Marineford would get serious problems to try to even stop the invasion.

 

[CinCameron20]

Well... 954 spoilers ofc, but it has been out for over a day, so i suspect everyone to understand.

Big Mom wont be the only Yonko present if we allow her alliance here. Kaido will be here, so I think the two of them could likely take on all 3 Admirals and then some together.

Kaido's 3 Calamities honestly lack anything beyond phyiscal power (all High 7-A range, so RIP). Jack and Queen are virtually useless in being proper distractions for anyone tier 6. King is an unknown.

The overall numbers for each force (2 Yonko crews + potential allies... which now Doflamingo flips over to Kaido's side, so RIP vs The full force of the marines) seems only slightly in favor of the marines, but both Doffy and Cracker circumvent this.

But all that matters here is: can Big Mom and Kaido defeat the Admirals, Sengoku, Garp, and Mihawk? Mihawk might simply leave if he doesn't think the whole situation is worth it, since I doubt he would like to dedicate himself to fighting two Yonko. In terms of combat, the Yonko themselves seem to have the advantage.

Big Mom's crew alone loses the war mid-diff. W/ Kaido, it's high-diff either way.

 

[Dr.Fix]

With Kaido they should win by lore. Kaido has taken them on by homself before and emerged unscathed. With Lin etc there for crowd control and make sure he doesn't get captured/drunk, Kaido can probably clear.

 

[CinCameron20]

Kaido was stated to have lost battles against his rivals, thus captured, but they just... couldn't kill him for x reasons.

 

[RexofLM]

Mont dor's book world could be clutch. 11 hours worth of biscuit soldiers coming out of mirrors on the island is a problem

 

[Dr.Fix]

"X-Reasons"? Umm he's WSC, enough said. "X-Reasons" is applied to the losses. You don't have to lose a contest of strength to "lose". Lin is in Wano right now specifically because of her "loss" to Luffy.

 

[Superßull]

Well... 954 spoilers ofc, but it has been out for over a day, so i suspect everyone to understand.
Big Mom wont be the only Yonko present if we allow her alliance here. Kaido will be here, so I think the two of them could likely take on all 3 Admirals and then some together.

Kaido's 3 Calamities honestly lack anything beyond phyiscal power (all High 7-A range, so RIP). Jack and Queen are virtually useless in being proper distractions for anyone tier 6. King is an unknown.

The overall numbers for each force (2 Yonko crews + potential allies... which now Doflamingo flips over to Kaido's side, so RIP vs The full force of the marines) seems only slightly in favor of the marines, but both Doffy and Cracker circumvent this.

But all that matters here is: can Big Mom and Kaido defeat the Admirals, Sengoku, Garp, and Mihawk? Mihawk might simply leave if he doesn't think the whole situation is worth it, since I doubt he would like to dedicate himself to fighting two Yonko. In terms of combat, the Yonko themselves seem to have the advantage.

Big Mom's crew alone loses the war mid-diff. W/ Kaido, it's high-diff either way.

oh yeah if kaido is on her side then that's just overkill and oda also said the events of marineford will look cute in comparison to wano as if to say that big mom and kaido being together is a much bigger deal ...

 

[Ryope]

Even with Kaido Marineford stilll win

Marines+ Shichibukai= 4 Yokno,you need all the 4 Yokno crews in order to match/win.

this is 2 top tier(Big Mom and Kaido) against 6 Top tier(Sengoku Garp Kuzan Sakazuki Borsalino Mihawk)

Big Mom can't win here