Ben 10 Hyperversal upgrade

[Reiner04]

I'm leaning more towards with what Everything12 said.

Honestly the argument that what naljians said aren't related to spatiotemporal dimensions doesn't makes much sense given no evidence for it and the context is specifically not up for it. Contemilias has exactly same piece of evidence for 5D hde and @DontTalkDT said that it's looks enough and they do have HDE as well in the profile. Several ppls did noted it down as well.

When the Naljian talks about how humans can only perceive "only" 3 dimensions, she's pretty clearly talking about spatial dimensions like up-down, left-right, and forwards-backward. When Ben asks for clarification on how many dimensions there are, he's still referencing what she just said, so they're still talking about dimensions of the same nature. I'm not sure what this "we're not sure what they mean" rhetoric is about. There are more than 3 spatial dimensions (the ones humans can perceive) and at least 26 based on piecing together the conversation's basic sequence. Given that these are specific directions they're talking about, the Omniversal Force extending endlessly throughout every direction would apply as well.

At what point will there be enough evidence to support this? This upgrade literally marks all the checkpoints in describing what is meant by, "dimensions" and even elaborated on the size of them as well. This is all extra stuff that apparently needs to be proven to stop this upgrade, how specific does it have to be? Asking, "what is the nature of these dimensions" and of the sorts is weird, because it literally tells us what it means lol. We humans can perceive 3 dimensions, obviously talking about spatial dimensions, and not like parallel universes or something similar. It goes onto say there are literally 26 dimensions at least.

Also, once my friend asked DT if Contimelias statement is enough for HDE and he said it looks enough.

Additions to the HDE page (Staff Thread)

Then the ability from Aliex X should probably be removed.

vsbattles.com

I'll put down these comments as well so u can check.

 

[TiltedFN]

Like the standards changed so that you have to have statements of the dimensions being significant in size in every direction, that's verbatim stated here basically, yet its still not enough. I feel like what is being asked for is way to specific.

 

[Georredannea15]

Like the standards changed so that you have to have statements of the dimensions being significant in size in every direction, that's verbatim stated here basically, yet its still not enough. I feel like what is being asked for is way to specific.

The main problem is whether it is spatial in this context, another problem is that extending in different directions does not always mean extending in different geometric and dimensional axes, and another is the fundamental nature of this dimensions. So... there's a lot of inferences and assumptions being made from just one scene, but I don't think that's going to make much sense to you, man.

Real Madrid maçından yatınca erkekler...

 

[Greenshifter]

The main problem is whether it is spatial in this context

Context says it is

another problem is that extending in different directions does not always mean extending in different geometric and dimensional axes

It does

and another is the fundamental nature of this dimensions

Is what you said before + their size

So... there's a lot of inferences and assumptions being made from just one scene

That’d be 2 inferences made from 2 scenes, each scene lasting about a minute.

 

[Reiner04]

Man, I wasn't sure that hde was this hard to prove. Literally even higher dimensions were used to be enough before and now higher dimensions + beyond 3d beings range to perceive and 3D beings in specific at that referred as lower dimensionals aren't enough anymore is... Beyond me. It's just being too demanding from author to explain each thing in pure mathematical and theoretical way as if context doesn't hold any value. They're writing a story not theoretical book, we eventually have to go with best interpretation possible and have it at that.

 

[Georredannea15]

Context says it is

I don't want to repeat, but the context mentions 26 dimensions

It does

No lmao

Different dimensional axes always means different directions but different directions doens't always mean different dimensional axes.

In fact, they should be geometrically different directions of movement rather than a simple different directions. You can move to multiple points within the scope of a basic dimensional axis, but you cannot move to different axes of movement. In short, both are different.

That’d be 2 inferences made from 2 scenes, each scene lasting about a minute.

And that's... that's really not enough, man.

Man, I wasn't sure that hde was this hard to prove. Literally even higher dimensions were used to be enough before and now higher dimensions + beyond 3d beings range to perceive and 3D beings in specific at that referred as lower dimensionals aren't enough anymore is... Beyond me. It's just being too demanding from author to explain each thing in pure mathematical and theoretical way as if context doesn't hold any value.

Yes for the rest rather than the mathematical expression.

That is why in the previous staff thread it was said that special expression(s) were needed for this. I don't know what happens next. Context is important, but the phrase "26 dimensions" from a single scene is... very vague.

To interpret it that way with no context or wording other than a single sentence and scene is basically absurd and very extreme.

 

[Reiner04]

Sometimes, it barely matters if the evidence is convincing or not because certain ppls are bound to stay unconvinced. I'm pretty much baffled that Naljians and contimilias mentioned dimensions are being doubted and being argued to not be spatiotemporal so bad that my words can't express. Welp, whatever. Diversity of way of thinking maybe, never Fails to amaze me

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

“Not another one of these!”



The Naljians state that reality is composed of at least 26 (maybe 27) spatio-temporal dimensions which should scale them (sike, they’re fodder) the Omniversal Force to hyperversal.

"You only perceive in 3 dimensions"
"There are 26"

That's as straightforward as it gets, but...

It extends infinitely in every direction, through every reality, so all of its dimensions are obviously fully-sized.

While the Omniversal force itself may extend unendingly, attributing that to the directions themselves seems a bit iffy for me.

Possibly probably works but a straight upgrade just doesn't have much for it in my view. Especially when it's inevitable going to be used for a bunch of upgrades.

I have to agree with this sentiment

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

"You only perceive in 3 dimensions"
"There are 26"

That's as straightforward as it gets, but...

While the Omniversal force itself may extend unendingly, attributing that to the directions themselves seems a bit iffy for me.


I have to agree with this sentiment

So do you agree with a possibly?

 

[Reiner04]

"You only perceive in 3 dimensions"
"There are 26"

That's as straightforward as it gets, but...

Just for the sake of future, I think this thread should also deal with either those 26D were spatiotemporal or not aside from it being 1-B. So that in future there won't be any needless debate over it.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

So do you agree with a possibly?

Yeh

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Just for the sake of future, I think this thread should also deal with either those 26D were spatiotemporal or not aside from it being 1-B. So that in future there won't be any needless debate over it.

Nothing suggests they are temporal. Spatial however seems a given, by the comparison to the 3-dimensional perspective of humans.

 

[Reiner04]

Nothing suggests they are temporal. Spatial however seems a given, by the comparison to the 3-dimensional perspective of humans.

My bad, I meant only spatial.

 

[Greenshifter]

While the Omniversal force itself may extend unendingly, attributing that to the directions themselves seems a bit iffy for me.

So you are technically fine with the Omniversal Force being full on hyperversal, but not the cosmology? Did I get that right? Or are you arguing something else?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

So you are technically fine with the Omniversal Force being full on hyperversal, but not the cosmology? Did I get that right? Or are you arguing something else?

Without a proper size for these extra directions, the Omniversal Force would only be (whatever is accepted for cosmology right now)+1 in size imo, as it completely dwarves it and is unending.

However, a possible 26+1 case is acceptable to me, as again, the comparison is as straightforward as it gets to the "normal" three spatial ones (in terms of the extra dimensions the Omniversal Force dwarves).

Edit: I phrased this very weirdly, my apologies. I'm arguing for a "possible 26-D" cosmology, yeah, with the Omniversal Force itself being 26+1-D

 

[RedReaper]

I think possibly is the correct way to go here.

For one, think the opposition’s caution is valid. It’s not truly defined, after all.

However, on the other end, every argument they’ve posed is straight up mental gymnastics, because it is objective fact they meant directional/spatial/geometric dimensions, and that the Omniversal Force is infinitely going through all of them. Meaning that you can only really argue against if through the mechanisms they’ve elected to use—Incredulity.

To me, being incredulous of this IS valid here, but not to the degree you just “No” objective evidence proving you wrong and don’t actually engage with it. (And there is no way to engage with it that actually proves it’s wrong). So a “possibly” rating seems to be the best way to go—At least to me.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I think possibly is the correct way to go here.

For one, think the opposition’s caution is valid. It’s not truly defined, after all.

However, on the other end, every argument they’ve posed is straight up mental gymnastics, because it is objective fact they meant directional/spatial/geometric dimensions, and that the Omniversal Force is infinitely going through all of them. Meaning that you can only really argue against if through the mechanisms they’ve elected to use—Incredulity.

To me, being incredulous of this IS valid here, but not to the degree you just “No” objective evidence proving you wrong and don’t actually engage with it. (And there is no way to engage with it that actually proves it’s wrong). So a “possibly” rating seems to be the best way to go—At least to me.

Very much agreed.

 

[Greenshifter]

@LephyrTheRevanchist Ah uh, I’m only arguing the Omniversal Force is infinite 26D (or infinite 27D) though, not that it is a higher dimension than the dimensions that the Naljians are talking about.

But thanks for your input.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

@LephyrTheRevanchist Ah uh, I’m only arguing the Omniversal Force is infinite 26D (or infinite 27D) though, not that it is a higher dimension than the dimensions that the Naljians are talking about.

But thanks for your input.

some standards change have likely transpired and I may not be aware of them, but

Considering how the Omniversal Force encompasses every direction and keep on going unendingly, wouldn't it be 26+1?

 

[Greenshifter]

To me, being incredulous of this IS valid here

Isn’t being incredulous and basing your arguments on that just a logical fallacy?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Isn’t being incredulous and basing your arguments on that just a logical fallacy?

Not necessarily. The show doesn't elaborate on these spatial dimensions beyond "well, they are indeed spatial dimensions". Questions of their size for the purposes of our tiering system are completely valid and going with the lower interpretation is our usual go to. That's what they are referring to.

 

[Greenshifter]

Considering how the Omniversal Force encompasses every direction and keep on going unendingly, wouldn't it be 26+1?

Nah it’s like saying a realm which extends infinitely in 4 spatial dimensions is 2-A (not accounting for temporal dimensions here, if you are talking about that then I just misunderstood), not Low 1-C.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Nah it’s like saying a realm which extends infinitely in 4 spatial dimensions is 2-A (not accounting for temporal dimensions here, if you are talking about that then I just misunderstood), not Low 1-C.

Alright then

 

[Greenshifter]

Questions of their size for the purposes of our tiering system are completely valid and going with the lower interpretation is our usual go to. That's what they are referring to.

Uhuh, but the second clip is explicitly for the size.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Uhuh, but the second clip is explicitly for the size.

Of the Omniversal Force, not these directions.

The directions aren't elaborated at all.

 

[Greenshifter]

Ah uh basically the Omniversal Force needs space to exist in, so the individual spatial dimensions would have to extend infinitely for the Omniversal Force to be able to exist.

Also technically the upgrade is just about the Omniversal Force at this moment, not the space which holds it.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Ah uh basically the Omniversal Force needs space to exist in, so the individual spatial dimensions would have to extend infinitely for the Omniversal Force to be able to exist.

I didn't get that from the clip, is it elaborated elsewhere?

Also technically the upgrade is just about the Omniversal Force at this moment, not the space which holds it.

I'll have to disagree with this. If you introduce these 23 extra dimensions to the usual 3 for the purposes of establishing that the Omniversal Force encompasses them, then you kinda have to also accept the 26-D right here and now. Not half-assing here.

 

[RedReaper]

Isn’t being incredulous and basing your arguments on that just a logical fallacy?

While yes, that’s correct, it’s valid in some scenarios. At least in my eyes. Like, if we see someone regenerate (uh, imagine the visual of GoW 2018 Kratos’, for example) and someone on wiki proposes it’s actually Time Manipulation undoing the injuries because the only ability ever stated by the character to have is Time Manip. (Think Seraphina, from unOrdinary) There’s no proof against it, but the stuff is vague and relatively unexplained (not stated to be used for their regenerative power), so by all technicality their argument is valid.

But I imagine no one would fully accept that argument because of a substantial lack of information. While this case isn’t identical, but you get the idea. While there is objective evidence here, it’s not some explicit in detail explanation that goes into depth on how it exactly fits our tiering. It fits just enough to roughly qualify. So I think it should only roughly be accepted. Hence, possibly.

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

Why are people trying to deny that the 26 dimensions aren’t spacial, they outright say there are 26 dimensions instead f the three Ben views. Very blatant, however change my vote to a possibly as well because I’m not sure if “direction” is enough to warrant all 26 dimensions being infinite

 

[Greenshifter]

I didn't get that from the clip, is it elaborated elsewhere?

Definition of space: “the dimensions of height, depth, and width within which all things exist and move.”

Things need space to exist, unless fiction says they don’t.

I'll have to disagree with this. If you introduce these 23 extra dimensions to the usual 3 for the purposes of establishing that the Omniversal Force encompasses them, then you kinda have to also accept the 26-D right here and now. Not half-assing here.

It’s more-so got to do with the argument that the Omniversal Force could partially exist in non-space (cause fiction), which maybe isn’t supported. This would still make the Omniversal Force Hyperversal, but wouldn’t change the tier of all of space-time (it’s like a character transcending all of space and time in a verse). So I was keeping that for the scaling thread where I was going to bring up some other stuff as well. This is also why I initially didn’t make the connection that it would upgrade Alien X.

 

[Greenshifter]

@RedReaper I see what you mean now

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Definition of space: “the dimensions of height, depth, and width within which all things exist and move.”

Things need space to exist, unless fiction says they don’t.

??????

The quote says the Omniversal Force goes through every reality, every dimension and keeps on going unendingly. You are trying to establish now that these directions "have" to be unending too, because the OF is.

"These dimensions are infinite, because the OF which goes beyond and through them is infinite."

That doesn't work here.

It’s more-so got to do with the argument that the Omniversal Force could partially exist in non-space (cause fiction), which likely isn’t supported. This would still make the Omniversal Force hyperversal but wouldn’t change the tier of the cosmology. So I was keeping that for the scaling thread where I was going to bring up some other stuff as well. This is also why I initially didn’t make the connection that it would upgrade Alien X.

If you posit that the OF could be 26-D even if these dimensions actually don't have the proper size for the purposes of our tiering system, I completely disagree with such notion. The OF's tier is completely dependent of the size of the cosmology for this to work. So nah, establish the cosmology proper here and deal with scaling elsewhere.

 

[Georredannea15]

I think possibly is the correct way to go here.

For one, think the opposition’s caution is valid. It’s not truly defined, after all.

However, on the other end, every argument they’ve posed is straight up mental gymnastics, because it is objective fact they meant directional/spatial/geometric dimensions, and that the Omniversal Force is infinitely going through all of them. Meaning that you can only really argue against if through the mechanisms they’ve elected to use—Incredulity.

To me, being incredulous of this IS valid here, but not to the degree you just “No” objective evidence proving you wrong and don’t actually engage with it. (And there is no way to engage with it that actually proves it’s wrong). So a “possibly” rating seems to be the best way to go—At least to me.

If there was a reference to the geometrical axis, yes, what you say would be true but fundamentally different "direction" does not mean different geometric/dimensional axis.(And yes, there are many more default thoughts like this.) The reason I fundamentally disagree is that so much is achieved through extremely limited and vague statement. As such, these are just assumptions and interpretations

 

[Greenshifter]

??????

The quote says the Omniversal Force goes through every reality, every dimension and keeps on going unendingly. You are trying to establish now that these directions "have" to be unending too, because the OF is.

"These dimensions are infinite, because the OF which goes beyond and through them is infinite."

Uh, judging by your reaction I’m not entirely sure that you’re getting me. But sure, that kind of tends to be the default?

Though Tbf I am open to the alternative which only upgrades the OF.

If you posit that the OF could be 26-D even if these dimensions actually don't have the proper size for the purposes of our tiering system, I completely disagree with such notion. The OF's tier is completely dependent of the size of the cosmology for this to work. So nah, establish the cosmology proper here and deal with scaling elsewhere.

Not really what I’m saying. A dimension is an abstract thing really which measures the extent of something. What I’m saying is that if what we call space is only a 1x1x1x… (26 times) hypercube then it wouldn’t qualify for hyperversal. But the Omniversal Force would be an infinityxinfinityxinfinityx… hypercube and thus qualify for hyperversal.

Now dimensions of a certain construct scaling to “space” is by default assumed to be the case. Though there is certain context (like Celestialsapiens creating the multiverse (this scan hasn’t been brought up yet) which one could argue that the OF predates “space” and thus “space” doesn’t scale to it). But I think this argument is far too complicated (and relies on things which aren’t accepted yet) to include in this thread.

TLDR; All of space-time and the Omniversal Force scale to hyperversal until I make a thread with a very specific scan to potentially debunk the former, not the latter. (Aka the Omniversal Force exists beyond space)

Edit: CRT was made and debunk failed.

 

[RedReaper]

Uh, judging by your reaction I’m not entirely sure that you’re getting me. But sure, that kind of tends to be the default?

Though Tbf I am open to the alternative which only upgrades the OF.

Not really what I’m saying. A dimension is an abstract thing really which measures the extent of something. What I’m saying is that if what we call space is only a 1x1x1x… (26 times) hypercube then it wouldn’t qualify for hyperversal. But the Omniversal Force would be an infinityxinfinityxinfinityx… hypercube and thus qualify for hyperversal.

Now dimensions of a certain construct scaling to “space” is by default assumed to be the case. Though there is certain context (like Celestialsapiens creating the multiverse (this scan hasn’t been brought up yet) which one could argue that the OF predates “space” and thus “space” doesn’t scale to it). But I think this argument is far too complicated (and relies on things which aren’t accepted yet) to include in this thread.

TLDR; The cosmology and the Omniversal Force scale to hyperversal until I make a thread with a very specific scan to potentially debunk the former, not the latter.

If this is the case, I disagree. That’s just not how things work, as far as I’m aware. The OF is only as powerful as the Cosmology itself, not the other way around.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Uh, judging by your reaction I’m not entirely sure that you’re getting me. But sure, that kind of tends to be the default?

Though Tbf I am open to the alternative which only upgrades the OF.

There's no alternative here. If the cosmology isn't 26-D, then the OF isn't either. That's what I'm getting at

Given the rest of your post, where you yourself admit there's a scan that suggests the cosmology isn't 26-D, then I take back my agreement and switch to neutral leaning to disagree.

 

[Greenshifter]

If this is the case, I disagree. That’s just not how things work, as far as I’m aware. The OF is only as powerful as the Cosmology itself, not the other way around.

Hmm, I think you’re misunderstanding me. I’m doing nothing different from “x realm is y size, thus space-time/the cosmology is that big”.

Tbf maybe the term cosmology is causing the confusion here. With cosmology I mean “all of space-time” in this context. If you define it as “all constructs in the verse”, then just ignore what I said before.

 

[Greenshifter]

There's no alternative here. If the cosmology isn't 26-D, then the OF isn't either. That's what I'm getting at

Given the rest of your post, where you yourself admit there's a scan that suggests the cosmology isn't 26-D, then I take back my agreement and switch to neutral leaning to disagree.

With cosmology I mean “all of space-time”, not “the sum of all constructs” in the verse.

Big oopsie on my part, should have clarified.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

With cosmology I mean “all of space-time”, not “the sum of all constructs” in the verse.

Big oopsie on my part, should have clarified.

Doesn't really change things for me. The only reason the OF would be 1-B is because it also goes through and beyond the 26 directions. If there isn't anything that truly supports these directions/dimensions from being properly tierable (thus, upgrading the base cosmology, as they certainly would be a part of unless there's even more omitted scans here), then the OF wouldn't get the upgrade either for me.

 

[Reiner04]

I think it's better to get cosmology done to possible 1-B, whatever OF is can be part of its own thread.