Ben 10 Classic Series Revision Thread Part 1

[Greenshifter]

I'd be against this kind of scaling - we explicitly do not allow for additive durability based on withstanding an attack overtime or taking multiple attacks from the same character.

What was applied to DC Comics is either a massive exception based on a large amount of context that likely isn't held for the Atomix/Malgax fight or it's something that should be updated/removed.

We could treat Atomix like a kind of battery or well nuclear reactor in this case. The Omnitrix also supplies certain aliens with a certain amount of energy which they can use of the bat without absorbing energy. This could potentially be applied to Atomix and thus we’re more estimating the amount of attacks it takes Atomix to deplete his given energy rather than scaling Malgax to multiple attacks, Malgax’s dura would still only be superior to 1/x of Atomix’s sun statement (where x is the amount of attacks it took for him to get tired).

The DC stuff should probably be replaced with other scaling then yes. My concentration analogy still stands tho.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

this would purely be based on the author statement and not the feat itself. @Dargoo_Faust can decide whether he thinks that is enough proof, keep in mind that the quasar stuff might have been the possibility that Duncan was referring to rather than Gravattack being capable of creating a black hole which was sort of treated like a given I think.

Honestly the legitimacy of these WoGs in general is extremely sus. Some of these are very obviously asked by battleboarders who are familiar with the Tiering System of VSBW (heck in that specific one how is Duncan even supposed to know what "Multiversal+ levels of energy" means, that's pure battleboarding lingo) and much of them are asked by the same 2-3 twitter users. I recall this being explicitly against the rules but I might be misremembering, I'll consult with Ant and others about that.

I don't even think Duncan is properly responding to / is knowing what the questions being asked are much of the time, too.

So if we're to rate something purely on WoG I'd be against it, personally. Especially since Ben 10 has a multitude of authors, artists, etc. that aren't solely represented by him.

Like the Moon viewed from Earth here

I mean, that's a close-up shot on Ben's head, and is also not that unrealistic.

Galvan B has been drawn further than that if not at least the same as it.

The difference with Galvan B is that every conceivable optic has them right up close to each other, not just a single outer-space shot that could conceivably have one at a distance from the other.

We’ve also never seen the Earth viewed from the Moon in Omniverse and both of your images that you showed are the same one.

You guys brought up the examples from AF/UA to start with, which is why I'm still using them to argue here. I feel like this is sort of just shifting goalposts from "the series has bad optics" to "some parts of the series has good optics, but this specific part has bad optics".

But just Artistic Representation of alien planets
which is fairly common.

This argument is sort of a double-edged sword, if you're really pushing for it. If the animators placed the planets arbitrarily closer as a rule of cool, that throws everything else about that feat into a state of questionable-ness. If they shortened the distance they probably also shortened the timeframe due to how speed works, and we're using the episode itself to make judgements on timeframe, which is where they're drawn so close, not author statements. So if Duncan is saying the feat somehow happened differently than it did on-screen; we shouldn't cherrypick a timeframe from the on-screen feat and a distance from WoG when both severely contradict eachother to start with.

Regardless the calc/feat doesn't work. Honestly I should have brought up earlier why we're trying to use a punch from Malgax, a Tier 5, to get a lower tier rating for Diamondhead, when @Zamasu_Chan correctly pointed out that their entire interaction is just an outlier or inconsistency for Diamondhead considering logically Malgax should have pulverized him with a decent punch.

 

[Daddybrawl]

ngl I’m all for not using WoG statements, I’ve told some Green multiple times he shouldn’t be doing that

 

[Lollipop_The_King]

Not all of them are complete bs.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Not all of them are complete bs.

Such as?

 

[Lollipop_The_King]

Can one not play Devil's Advocate?

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

I was just asking because there are a looooot of Ben 10 WOG statements.

 

[Lollipop_The_King]

Oh, I thought you were referring to Duncan's specifically.
Yeah, many writers = many, many contradictions.

 

[Jag50]

If this wiki can casually scale Kamen Riders and Precures off of one another via crossover movies and interactions then Rex can scale to Ben Tennyson via crossover and word of god. Should be that simple.

If you want to add a "Heroes United" section then go for it, I guess. Granted I don't think that's necessary.

 

[SinsofMan]

I am going to watch this, but it would help if we focus on one thing in particular.

Lets go through some quick ground rules though.

A. Using 'if the wiki can do X' argument is not valid. I used to argue like this, but honestly the verses on the wiki have different scaling standards and requirements. Some staff are far more strict with statements than others. Ben Ten is a big verse, but it has it's own nuances we need to take into account.

B. Ben Ten Scaling as a whole...is a little tricky. To put it nicely, the show has multiple shots to scale and when the animation style changed, I can also argue the consistency of using these shots; cross over or not is a little suspect. This is also not including feats and sort of 'haha' inconsistencies when we talk about the level of ben ten's aliens ranging from not too much more powerful/weaker then ben, to literal reality warpers.

C. Fine with scaling to other universes/spin offs on principle, not sure if my buddy Dargoo agrees but honestly I doubt it matters. This includes WOG as well but it is not like I am going to die on this hill. Clearly it is case by case. No 'Alien X can destroy the multiverse in 6 thoughts'.
Partly because it is cherry picking and partly because we shouldnt use it as primary evidence to scale to a new tier; especially if it is not a universal opinion with all writers/artists who do the show.

D. As for the changes proposed, I see some I am fine with and others not so much. (Primarily AP as far as I can see but that is neither here nor there.)

I will come back to this, but if we are currently talking about Galvin A and B; I agree with Dargoo. To put it bluntly, this particular arguments reads as cherry picking screen shots to scale a certain way. Nothing against using A or B per se, I am just a little skeptical. The optics just are bad but this one works just fine seems like we are hand waving one while ignoring the others.

 

[Lollipop_The_King]

Where did the whole "Alien X destroys the multiverse in 6" come from and why do I keep seeing it being mentioned? Did one of the writers say that then go back on it or something?

 

[Daddybrawl]

Derrick J Wyatt said it, then refuted it later. He’s not only just an Artist, but he isn’t a very reliable source of information and mostly says information in the heat of the moment.

 

[Electro7101]

It is the epitome of B10 wog debates,
So long as we discuss wog it will continue to be brought up with the subtext to tint all else via association.

 

[DemonicDude]

This thread has nothing to do with 6 thoughts statement to begin with.

 

[DemonicDude]

Duncan himself has said he puts efforts into answering question 0:40 If Feedback energy absorption was something he wasn't familiar with why would he even answer there are many questions about the series he doesn't answer but the one he do are the ones he is familiar with so someone who created a show which explores the Multiverse/Omniverse wouldn't know what Multiversal+ means, that can be further debated down the line. Back to Tier 4-C Atomix, Omnitrix gave Chromastone free energy immediately after his transformation which was enough to deal great amount of damage to Vilgax, It makes sense to treat him the same way since he's described as a nuclear reactor.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Duncan himself has said he puts efforts into answering question 0:40 If Feedback energy absorption was something he wasn't familiar with why would he even answer there are many questions about the series he doesn't answer but the one he do are the ones he is familiar with so someone who created a show which explores the Multiverse/Omniverse wouldn't know what Multiversal+ means, that can be further debated down the line.

Yeah, no. That video doesn't really tell me anything that would suggest that Duncan took the time to research battleboarding/VSBW semantics in order to understand what that question meant, and his answer was kind of dodged the question even if we were to assume this, since he just goes into talking about if the universes operate on the same set of physics.

Even if he did, it's also very much against our policy to try to extract WoGs via asking leading questions to authors in order to increase statistics, and this question was clearly asked by a battleboarder familiar with indexing wikis.

Do not pester or harass the authors of various works on social media about versus debating or character statistics. They are often bombarded by numerous questions from fans, and thus are rarely interested in giving a serious response. In addition, the statements they give to appease users are often contradictory to the feats in the stories of the works they have written. Thus it is frowned upon to bother them over these topics.

Additionally;

Author statements will only be accepted when they clarify what has been shown or implied in the series itself, and will be rejected when they contradict what has been shown to the audience. Statements that technically do not contradict anything shown in the series will still be rejected if there is no evidence that they are accurate.

Regarding direct information from the author/creator of a character: We do not use statements from them that are phrased in an uncertain, uncaring, and/or unspecific manner, such as "Could be", "Maybe", "Probably", "Possibly" etcetera. Brief or vague answers to fan-questions via social media are also generally disregarded, whereas more elaborate explanations in serious interviews are usually considered more reliable.

Unless there's supporting evidence in the series itself we wouldn't use that WoG, as it's heavily above anything Feedback has demonstrated in the series.

 

[Greenshifter]

Don't have a lot of time now, but I will say that said Feedback statement is the only real thing that uses battleboard terms and that's also exactly why I haven't brought it up yet. However I can get Feedback to multiversal+ absorption without that author statement most likely.

There are other examples such as the Omnitrix speed feat (someone else can give a scan) which show he puts effort into his replies and couples to the show (I personally consider Duncan to be one of the best WoG's) as well as supporting evidence from the interview with the Ink Tank where we got confirmation he loves these questions + that it is him answering them.

I do agree that vague ones such as the "possibility" quasar can get yeeted (although there is some backing in the show due to Gravattack getting close to a black hole) however this is the most extreme example of him not putting in effort, all the other author statements are better.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

However I can get Feedback to multiversal+ absorption without that author statement most likely.

OK, go ahead with that, then.

There are other examples such as the Omnitrix speed feat (someone else can give a scan) which show he puts effort into his replies and couples to the show (I personally consider Duncan to be one of the best WoG's) as well as supporting evidence from the interview with the Ink Tank where we got confirmation he loves these questions + that it is him answering them.

The Ink Tank interview actually just goes into the sheer volume of WoGs he likes to dish out, making it far more believable that he's answering in quantity over quality, which makes sense because well, he's doing it via Twitter. With how many questions Duncan answered before his departure from social media recently I find it hard to believe that these are much more than passing remarks, especially with responses like "possibility".

all the other author statements are better.

I can individually go over the WoGs listed in the OP, if this helps clear out some points on the OP that shouldn't be pursued or should be justified with more in-show evidence.

 

[Greenshifter]

Well sure, however that might lead to a bit too much at once. For now we should probably just focus on the Atomix one which does have backing in the show since it’s asking about a feat that he already did and it’s limit.

 

[Greenshifter]

Honestly the legitimacy of these WoGs in general is extremely sus. Some of these are very obviously asked by battleboarders who are familiar with the Tiering System of VSBW (heck in that specific one how is Duncan even supposed to know what "Multiversal+ levels of energy" means, that's pure battleboarding lingo) and much of them are asked by the same 2-3 twitter users. I recall this being explicitly against the rules but I might be misremembering, I'll consult with Ant and others about that.

We have no idea who that guy is so (probably Badri who’s banned if you ask me) while it could definitely be with the intention to upgrade characters we don’t know for sure since we don’t know which wiki this guy is using. Most of the other people are us (when it comes to WoG in this thread but there are tens of people asking Duncan questions every day and Duncan always gives them a good answer) but the people who asked the questions genuinely wanted to know the answer (Cookie asked the 4-C sun stuff and he doesn’t care about Atomix’s scaling) or it’s some sort of confirmation type of stuff such as Way Big countering the Conquest Ray (which is accepted) or the size/distance of Galvan B.

I don't even think Duncan is properly responding to / is knowing what the questions being asked are much of the time, too.

I doubt that, he’s a smart guy and is aware of stuff like String Theory, you got a point about debating terms but the other stuff?

So if we're to rate something purely on WoG I'd be against it, personally. Especially since Ben 10 has a multitude of authors, artists, etc. that aren't solely represented by him.

I can agree with that.

Malgax should have pulverized him with a decent punch

Malgax holding back to torture Ben? That said I ain’t too happy with this either.

ngl I’m all for not using WoG statements, I’ve told some Green multiple times he shouldn’t be doing that

I already addressed this in private but I didn’t push anyone to ask stuff to Duncan and like 90% of my revisions aren’t based on WoG.

 

[Daddybrawl]

I already addressed this in private but I didn’t push anyone to ask stuff to Duncan and like 90% of my revisions aren’t based on WoG.

And I told you I know, I was just using you as an example as the first name that came to mind. Relax, lol

 

[Electro7101]

None of the things I propose will be based on wog but I have no issue discussing for what I believe is fair.

 

[Greenshifter]

OK, go ahead with that, then.

Sure, first we need to do a lot of other revisions tho (including cosmology and what not)

he's answering in quantity over quality

No, Duncan goes out of his way to couple (Phil and the Rooters researching the Omnitrix) to the show, compares it to another a theoretical physics concept such as tachyons which he then states is not theoretical in Ben 10 (because of the Hyperspace Jumpgate and Malware’s tachyon cannon which is again referencing the show) and interacts with fans after that including Firestorm who asked if his numbers were correct. So if you pull the Duncan doesn’t put effort into his arguments card then you might as well yeet every WoG on the site. Why would he be doing an interview in the first place if he doesn’t care for what he says? He’s like the literal opposite of DJW. (Oh and I already said that the “possibility” stuff is the literal worst example, it’s not like he could answer much more anyways, and I already conceded on that specific statement, as in you can decide what we do with it)

I can individually go over the WoGs listed in the OP, if this helps clear out some points on the OP that shouldn't be pursued or should be justified with more in-show evidence.

Perhaps one time but preferably in private or after we’ve got some stuff done since the risk is that we’re gonna argue literally everything at the same time.

And I told you I know, I was just using you as an example as the first name that came to mind. Relax, lol

I’m aware I was mostly talking to the other people who wouldn’t be aware of that.

 

[Greenshifter]

Anyways about the actual discussion:

@Dargoo_Faust I’m open to compromise for the 10 minutes timeframe for his sun feat but I’d first like a good explanation on why we can’t treat him as a sort of nuclear reactor and essentially treat him like the sun itself (High 6-A output of a 4-C object, only Atomix’s time of burning out is much shorter thus his output is higher) because even if we lowball the Malgax fight and say he used 100 full power attacks before he got tired then that still gives a higher result than the 10 minute timeframe so that doesn’t sound accurate at all.

Also Dargoo could you tell me what exactly Gravattack’s LS with his gravity manipulation would be for getting close to the gravity of a black hole?

I am also aware that Electro has some arguments left for DH getting punched to the moon but I will say that we should really move on to other stuff so unless the argument is really good then I’m kinda forced to agree with Dargoo here.

I’ll probably make a list of everything that was brought up in this thread and that still needs to be discussed, unless someone else does it before me.

 

[Firestorm808]

If Galvan B had the mass of Ganymede with orbital properties the same as the moon, the orbital distance is calculated to be 386313 km.

@Dargoo_Faust Is this value acceptable?

 

[Lollipop_The_King]

Unrelated Interjection

The whole AF Vil =/= OV gax, any progress on that or still busy with other matters?

 

[Firestorm808]

@Lollipop_The_King i How major are the changes again?

 

[Lollipop_The_King]

@Lollipop_The_King i How major are the changes again?

It was simply supposed to be separating Vilgax's AF/OV key since he doesn't retain his UAF powers, as confirmed by Matt Wayne.
Not sure what would really change from what he can and can't do.

 

[Firestorm808]

Ah, thanks. With that in mind, OV Vilgax is still comparable AP to AF but lacks certain abilities. I added an Omniverse Abilities Tab.

 

[Greenshifter]

Eh Firestorm, if the powers of all of those aliens are gone then that also implies his AF AP is gone since that came from Ultimos and the other warriors who would have regained all their abilities including super strength. We also see Ultimos have his powers in the future in Ben 10K. Thus OV Vilgax’s AP = OS Vilgax’s AP, only without his amp most likely.

 

[Firestorm808]

@Greenshifter

Did OV show any difference in AP for Vilgax's fights with Ben?

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

@Greenshifter

Did OV show any difference in AP for Vilgax's fights with Ben?

Vilgax in OV doesn’t have feats on the level of AF. Unfortunately.

 

[Firestorm808]

@Zamasu_Chan

What fights did he lose to?

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

All these aliens, except for Atomic X, Vilgax would’ve been able to handle quite well. Except they all one shot him.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

except for Atomic X, Vilgax would’ve been able to handle quite well.

To play Devil's Advocate, Diamondhead kicks AF Vilgax's ass in his first appearance in AF.

Cannonbolt and Shocksquach beating him up is kind of silly if we assume he's at the same AP as AF Vilgax.

 

[Lollipop_The_King]

Yeah, Vil isn't all that strong in OV.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Mind you, that version of Cannonbolt is from a ten year old Gwen, who should be comparable to ten year old Ben's Cannonbolt.

 

[Greenshifter]

And said 10 year old Ben's Cannonbolt can match Kevin 11 so it's consistent (not that OV Vilgax has that many feats anyways, I don't think he ever even landed a hit on anyone aside from Base Ben 10000 except as Malgax) and this Vilgax taking a punch from OV DH without getting KO'd also proves that mid tiers don't get stomped by top tiers.

Also if DH would have punched AF Vilgax like that it wouldn't have ended nearly as well since Mid-size Humungousaur who should be stronger than him got punched into the ground. I already explained how AF DH beating AF Vilgax is basically skill + certain attacks that have higher AP.

 

[Greenshifter]

Can we actually scale off of dream episodes? I’m talking about “Perfect Day” and “Night of the Living Nightmare”. The former is supposed to be an accurate simulation by the Forever Knights I think. I’m mostly interested in in-character moves such as BFR for Vilgax (twice), OS DH’s crystal control and interesting tidbits such as Vilgax stomping Ult Spidermonkey after the latter has gotten several hits in and Eatle being a match for Julie with Ship armor. There’s also Aggregor reversing the polarity of Lodestar’s magnetic field. Oh and obviously when the episodes start getting weird such as base Ben getting superpowers or wrecking NRG doesn’t count anymore.

 

[Firestorm808]

So just have OV Vilgax as at least OS, likely higher?