Bayonetta's Witch Time is not a time slow.

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Interviews and twitter questions are two differnt medias,the former is acceptable the latter is not

So Witch Time isn't Time Stop since he said it in an interview inside an official guidebook.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

So are people going with

Really strong Speed Amp

Or self Time Accel.

I mean, let's be blunt, the end result is the same lol

 

[Comicgyal]

Oh I’ll be making my response now, just woke up so don’t decide too much yet ;;

 

[Lightning_XXI]

So are people going with

Really strong Speed Amp

Or self Time Accel.

I mean, let's be blunt, the end result is the same lol

Do we have a number for how much it increases her speed ?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Do we have a number for how much it increases her speed ?

Seeing opponents that move at 1e+16 times fastr than the speed of light as motionless

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Nope. We just know that it's enough to make it seem like the foe is so slow that time appears to have slowed to a near stop. But an exact number is never given.

 

[Comicgyal]

So OP is right in some areas, witch time is in fact a speed boost among other things, however it’s ultimately still a time manipulation. I apologize if I reference anything you all have discussed already, I haven’t caught up entirely.



Anyways starting off with the Twitter post, kamiya doesn’t really say “"both Witch Time and Light Speed are not about manipulating time, but rather speeding up the user." All Kamiya says is that both abilities are faster than time manipulation, meaning the two are well.. moving faster than time when using it. That doesn’t confirm OPs original point, all it really does is give them an even further speed feat? However in these Twitter responses, it’s fairly obvious Kamiya isn’t entirely into the conversation. Since when directly asked about the time manipulation part by another, he just gives this response which confirms nor denies anything. Though that’s just my take on the Twitter response, it’s Twitter anyways..



Now I’ve watched his documentary plenty of times, so I already knew what Op was referencing when they brought it up. However I believe there are some rules in place for author statements? Even if it is wog, if there’s enough lore in game to disregard it then it’s not true. It’s similar to how people will disregard kamiya calling Rodin the strongest character in the game, because in lore / gameplay he’s done nothing that supports it too much. This situation is very similar, except witch time has been regarded as a time slow numerous times in lore / gameplay.



Starting off with Antonio’s own notebooks, it’s good to post the entire chapter in order to gain full context. As I said before, OP is right in thinking it boosts their normal attributes, however that chapter doesn’t debunk it being time manipulation.



“Temporal control is not just simply being able to recognize this world, it also enables one to boost their physical abilities and move freely within that single moment.”



This statement is proof enough that witch time is both time manipulation, and also the boosting of their regular attributes.



“Witch time.... it seems that the witches on this earth fell victim to our worlds passage of time and vanished into the abyss of eternity.”



Antonio is very clearly acknowledging witch time as a time manipulating ability as well, so it’s not that good to reference it solely. In Antonio’s notebooks he briefly references the witches again, saying the crystal witch and sage were used to aid their control over time. As you all know gameplay wise, a lightning strike comes from the heavens once activated, and you have to dodge at the last second. It’s very clearly again, an ability used to manipulate time itself. How couldn’t it be? That is the exact reason they have the Eyes of the world, to be overseers of history and time. Not witches and sages that can move really fast.



Going into Bayonetta 2, we have our very first direct mention of time manipulation. Madam Khepri, a goddess contracted to Rosa who is also able to control time itself. Witches gain their abilities from demons they’re contracted to, time is a very important factor in their power set. So much so, that a witch made the bracelet of time. Which enables a witch to control witch time at will, helping novice witches that weren’t able to grasp the concept very easily. Witch time effects the world around them, it couldn’t be as simple as a “speed boost” or else the intense training and discipline wouldn’t be needed.



In Bayonetta 1, the very first chapter gives us a good glimpse of how witch time works. In gameplay, when using witch time you can see that their actions are sped up, while the world around them slows down. However witch time is something that you can stack. Bayonetta activates witch time, slowing everything around her to a crawl, however she limited hers to the environment. Jeanne activates witch time, slowing down the angels around them and also the environment. It’s very obviously a time slow that can be increased.

I hope I can sway some of you? In all honesty, the way witch time is described by kamiya, then represented in lore is very inconsistent. However I believe that’s due to Kamiya being kept out of the loop a bit. The developers would often put things in the game without telling, or tell him about it last moment. You all can watch the document for yourselves, he says that a lot.

 

[RoyGundam]

"slows down time in game" clearly isn't the same as slows down time

 

[WeeklyBattles]

First game stuff



28:16 The first instance of Witch Time, and 29:25 Witch Time stacking. Of note, the fodder angels are visibly not slowed down by the original Witch Time, which going by the assumption that it is a speed amp would make the weakest of the weak angels faster than Jubileus.

31:52 Jeanne deactivates Witch Time to make the truck that separated them move faster so she could make a getaway. Unless Jeanne can somehow turn off Bayonetta's speed amp by deactivating her own, this instance in particular heavily points toward it being a time slow.

1:16:24 "Perhaps if i were to unleash some Temporal Witch Power on it, my situation would improve."

1:42:43 Another instance of an Angel that isnt Jubileus being unaffected by Witch Time. Either theyre faster than Jubileus or its time slow, the latter of which is further supported by Bayo moving the rocks she touches as they are being interacted with by her but the ones she doesnt arent moving until she deactivates it and they immediately fall, consistent with the mechanics of the door feat above.

2:12:38 Another instance of an Angel that isnt Jubileus being unaffected by Witch Time. Bayo also uses Witch Time here to set up chain a reaction attack which move at normal speed when Bayo is touching them but slow down to a near stop when she launches them but then move at normal speed when she deactivates Witch Time, the mechanics of which would make little sense if it were just a speed amp.

3:04:43 Witch Time allows the user to physically grab and stand on watdr as if it were solid. Not just running across the surface like in the previous clip Matt showd but physically treating water as a solid surface without sinking into it. If it were just a speed amp it wouldnt make sense for her to not sink when she stands still.

4:06:48 Another instance of an Angel that isnt Jubileus being unaffected by Witch Time when everything else in the environment is.

5:44:37 Bayonetta once again treats water like a solid object that she can rab and use as a solid weapon. This would not be possible if it was just a speed amp.

 

[Ican'tthinkof1goodname]

Breaking physics via being a magical being is 100% possible

 

[Comicgyal]

That’s not a good counter argument, if you’re using that against Weekly.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Seeing opponents that move at 1e+16 times fastr than the speed of light as motionless

Last time I saw the profiles, they were MFTL at best, is that Irenic's feat ?

But I got it, basically makes people comparable to her as if they were frozen

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Last time I saw the profiles, they were MFTL at best, is that Irenic's feat ?

But I got it, basically makes people comparable to her as if they were frozen

Irenic's feat is MFTL+, 1e+16c

 

[Comicgyal]

Oh and by the way, in the game Wonderful 101 also created by Kamiya, you can purchase an ability called “Hero time” which has the same functions as witch time, showcasing very clearly that Kamiya intends for it to be a time slow as well.

 

[RoyGundam]

5:44:37 Bayonetta once again treats water like a solid object that she can rab and use as a solid weapon. This would not be possible if it was just a speed amp.

Well actually, if you interact with water faster than it can move out of the way, it does behave like a solid object. A person falling at terminal velocity (on Earth) would find the surface of water just as solid as concrete

 

[Antvasima]

Should Comicgyal and Weekly summarise their arguments, and the other side summarise their arguments as well, after which I call more staff members here to help evaluate this?

 

[Antvasima]

First game stuff



28:16 The first instance of Witch Time, and 29:25 Witch Time stacking. Of note, the fodder angels are visibly not slowed down by the original Witch Time, which going by the assumption that it is a speed amp would make the weakest of the weak angels faster than Jubileus.

31:52 Jeanne deactivates Witch Time to make the truck that separated them move faster so she could make a getaway. Unless Jeanne can somehow turn off Bayonetta's speed amp by deactivating her own, this instance in particular heavily points toward it being a time slow.

1:16:24 "Perhaps if i were to unleash some Temporal Witch Power on it, my situation would improve."

1:42:43 Another instance of an Angel that isnt Jubileus being unaffected by Witch Time. Either theyre faster than Jubileus or its time slow, the latter of which is further supported by Bayo moving the rocks she touches as they are being interacted with by her but the ones she doesnt arent moving until she deactivates it and they immediately fall, consistent with the mechanics of the door feat above.

2:12:38 Another instance of an Angel that isnt Jubileus being unaffected by Witch Time. Bayo also uses Witch Time here to set up chain a reaction attack which move at normal speed when Bayo is touching them but slow down to a near stop when she launches them but then move at normal speed when she deactivates Witch Time, the mechanics of which would make little sense if it were just a speed amp.

3:04:43 Witch Time allows the user to physically grab and stand on watdr as if it were solid. Not just running across the surface like in the previous clip Matt showd but physically treating water as a solid surface without sinking into it. If it were just a speed amp it wouldnt make sense for her to not sink when she stands still.

4:06:48 Another instance of an Angel that isnt Jubileus being unaffected by Witch Time when everything else in the environment is.

5:44:37 Bayonetta once again treats water like a solid object that she can rab and use as a solid weapon. This would not be possible if it was just a speed amp.

Anyway, this seems to make sense to me.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

I don't think using other games counts here, they are not the same universe

However I gotta agree that some people apparently having "resistance" to Witch Time could help being a Field Time Slow, unless they can resist to someone going into super speed mode, which is...unlikely

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Well actually, if you interact with water faster than it can move out of the way, it does behave like a solid object. A person falling at terminal velocity (on Earth) would find the surface of water just as solid as concrete

Whil thats true in the case here its Bayonetta standing on top of the water for several sconds as though it is a solid,not just falling on it and immediately jumping off

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

She should be able to do that with her default speed, and if the "seconds" are so short that people on her level can't even move in it then that is not much.

Angels resisting it would point to it being time slow though, yes.

 

[RoyGundam]

1:42:43 Another instance of an Angel that isnt Jubileus being unaffected by Witch Time. Either theyre faster than Jubileus or its time slow, the latter of which is further supported by Bayo moving the rocks she touches as they are being interacted with by her but the ones she doesnt arent moving until she deactivates it and they immediately fall, consistent with the mechanics of the door feat above.

Honestly this (bolded part) is all you need

 

[swaggyzealot]

Anyways starting off with the Twitter post, kamiya doesn’t really say “"both Witch Time and Light Speed are not about manipulating time, but rather speeding up the user." All Kamiya says is that both abilities are faster than time manipulation, meaning the two are well.. moving faster than time when using it. That doesn’t confirm OPs original point, all it really does is give them an even further speed feat? However in these Twitter responses, it’s fairly obvious Kamiya isn’t entirely into the conversation. Since when directly asked about the time manipulation part by another, he just gives this response which confirms nor denies anything. Though that’s just my take on the Twitter response, it’s Twitter anyways..

You cannot use the auto translate for an accurate translation, he explicitly say this, "both Witch Time and Light Speed are not about manipulating time, but rather speeding up the user. Since you distrust my translation, for whatever reason, you should try to outsource it to someone else who can provide an accurate translation not via software (i.e. use a translation subreddit). But I am not lying to you, that is what the translation reads.

Even if it is wog, if there’s enough lore in game to disregard it then it’s not true

Once more, this is not true.

“Witch time.... it seems that the witches on this earth fell victim to our worlds passage of time and vanished into the abyss of eternity.”



Antonio is very clearly acknowledging witch time as a time manipulating ability as well

He is literally stating that the Witches died out, not referring to their ability of Witch Time. Please re-read his sentence.

I hope I can sway some of you? In all honesty, the way witch time is described by kamiya, then represented in lore is very inconsistent

And again, this is outright not true. Witch Time is never said to be time manipulation by any characters. Witch Time is never shown to be time manipulation. Witch Time is never said to be time manipulation even in tutorials. Witch Time is referred to as a "speed-boosting ability" by reputable, in-game texts, an-info prompt, and multiple WoG statements: a recent twitter post, and an interview 3 months after the game was released.

And again, on all points regarding Witch Time in gameplay, I have repeatedly explained why a time-slow and speed boost would function the same. again, as I do not wish to repeat all my argument once more, please re-read my points.

Comicgyal and WeekelyBattle have not brought up any relevant points that I have not already addressed or explained, they are repeatedly re-claiming their arguments, despite my clear, and concise explanations.

 

[swaggyzealot]

Once more, I will repeat, just it case it isn't somehow clear, as I am the one who linked the gameguide in the first place, Bayonetta's Witch Time only referred to as a time slow in within this guide.
"...there is an official game guidebook, that states Bayonetta "slows time." However these statements are later contradicted by Kamiya himself, as he makes an appearance in the same book, with the above interviews I've posted in the OP. And in my mind, WoG + in-game statements > Guidebook.

Basically, if we look at all the available information/sources, in-game texts and out of game interviews/statements, there is overwhelming evidence towards Temporal Control: Witch Time and Light Speed, being an actual speed boost. The only evidence (that I've found), for Witch Time being a time slow, is within 5 lines of the game guide, and the Smash Bro's trailer (which wouldn't matter anyway, since it isn't canon).

All other sources, multiple WoG statements and in-game texts, state Bayonetta can speed herself up. (In-game feats can be said for either way, since as I said before, time is relative, so it wouldn't make a difference to how the ability looks.) Again, multiple WoG + in-game statements > Guidebook."

 

[Lightning_XXI]

"Comicgyal and WeekelyBattle have not brought up any relevant points that I have not already addressed or explained, they are repeatedly re-claiming their arguments, despite my clear, and concise explanations."

Can you repeat the part where you explained the part of Angels being resistant to Bayonetta's Witch Time, where was addressed or explained ? Don't mind me, really, but I lost that part

In my view, Angels being resistant to a self-speed-mode used by Bayo doesn't make much sense

 

[swaggyzealot]

"Comicgyal and WeekelyBattle have not brought up any relevant points that I have not already addressed or explained, they are repeatedly re-claiming their arguments, despite my clear, and concise explanations."

Can you repeat the part where you explained the part of Angels being resistant to Bayonetta's Witch Time, where was addressed or explained ? Don't mind me, really, but I lost that part

In my view, Angels being resistant to a self-speed-mode used by Bayo doesn't make much sense

"Cutscenes, where angels break out of a supposed "time slow," are suspect at first, but it can said they are simply "powering up," so to speak, in order to speed themselves up to match Bayo's WT speed. Other scenes, such as the boss fights with Fortitudo, or Sapientia, where they fight "under Witch Time," the same thing is occurring: angels aren't demonstrating "time slow/stop resistance," but instead are just moving really fast.

One also has to remember that time is relative; it makes no difference to how these cutscenes appear. If Bayonetta was slowing time or speeding herself up, everything would look the same - she is simply "existing faster" than everything else in both cases."

Again, to re-address Weekly's point on the rocks:

"As for the chain attacks, Witch Time can extend to objects of her choosing. Again, even if Witch Time were a time slow, it wouldn't make sense for her bullets to move past a few meters, yet they do anyway. Bayonetta can choose to extend her Witch Time to objects around her, as she does with her bullets in gameplay and cutscenes, or choose not to, as she does here. In your example of the rocks, the same would apply, Bayonetta is choosing to speed up other objects with her. (And theoretically, this is in line with how super speed would work; I'll quote someone else who can put it more precisely, "Bayo isn't just moving faster - if she doubles her speed with witch time, then every property of Bayo related to time doubles in favor of increasing her forces-over-time and reducing all other forces-over-time, but only relative to each other. This is how Flash is able to lift a giant gorilla over his head like it's nothing when running at super-speed. When he travels at ten times normal speed, he's multiplying his forces-over-time by ten relative to his environment, so he's also receiving less force from his cargo, because his cargo is accelerating downwards relatively ten times slower and he's accelerating it upwards ten times faster, even though from his perspective he's just raising his arms.")

And in those examples of Bayo and Jeanne stacking Witch Time, we can see the angels move slower when they "stack" Witch Time, they are amping their speed. For the same reason Bayonetta would be able to instantly and suddenly amp her speed normally, they are both doing the same here.

Again, time is relative, so all examples in-game cannot be used accurately to determine if either Witch Time slows time or is a speed boost. We need to use texts, and WoG (if you are so inclined), to interpret this ability, since again - if Bayonetta was slowing time or speeding herself up, everything would look the same - she is simply "existing faster" than everything else in both cases. We don't say Quicksilver has a timeslow (since we explicitly know he's just increasing his speed), even though time "slows" down."

 

[Comicgyal]

You cannot use the auto translate for an accurate translation, he explicitly say this, "both Witch Time and Light Speed are not about manipulating time, but rather speeding up the user. Since you distrust my translation, for whatever reason, you should try to outsource it to someone else who can provide an accurate translation not via software (i.e. use a translation subreddit). But I am not lying to you, that is what the translation reads.


Once more, this is not true.

He is literally stating the Witch died out, not referring to their ability of Witch Time. Please re-read his sentence.


And again, this is outright not true. Witch Time is never said to be time manipulation by any characters. Witch Time is never shown to be time manipulation. Witch Time is never said to be time manipulation even in tutorials. Witch Time is referred to as a "speed-boosting ability" by reputable, in-game texts, an-info prompt, and multiple WoG statements: a recent twitter post, and an interview 3 months after the game was release.

And again, on all points regarding Witch Time in gameplay, I have repeatedly explained why a time-slow and speed boost would function the same. again, as I do not wish to repeat all my argument once more, please re-read my points.

Comicgyal and WeekelyBattle have not brought up any relevant points that I have not already addressed or explained, they are repeatedly re-claiming their arguments, despite my clear, and concise explanations.

Okay, I will no longer argue the relevance of a Twitter response. I could ask kamiya right now if Aesir is 1-A, and the madman might tell me to ask Jubileus or something.

You focused on the last part of my paragraph, while not referencing the fact that the speed boost is regarded as an addition to witch time. Must I reiterate :

“Temporal control is not just simply being able to recognize this world, it also enables one to boost their physical abilities and move freely within that single moment.”


It also enables them to boost their abilities, not just “Witch time gives them a physical boost” like the argument you’re making. You cannot make a concise witch time argument, while also ignoring the many in game inconsistencies. Much like weekly said, you can’t just “resist” someone speed boosting themselves, that makes no sense.

“He is literally stating the Witch dies out, not referring to their ability of Witch Time. Please re-read his sentence.”

He is very clearly making a metaphor on witch time, an ability that manipulates time, and how the witches vanished from their passage of time due to their deaths. I read it plenty of times.

As weekly posted, they do reference witch time as much more than a speed boost. “Unleash temporal witch powers.” What part of that sounds like a speed boost? She even uses the statues, which I again pointed out is used to aid their control over time. To say that witches don’t manipulate time.. is to deny entire plot points established in Bayonetta 2, and why the eyes of the world exist in the first place. The witches are described as overseeers of history and time, it’s very in your face about it.

 

[Comicgyal]

The only evidence (that I've found), for Witch Time being a time slow, is within 5 lines of the game guide, and the Smash Bro's trailer (which wouldn't matter anyway, since it isn't canon).

All other sources, multiple WoG statements and in-game texts, state Bayonetta can speed herself up. (In-game feats can be said for either way, since as I said before, time is relative, so it wouldn't make a difference to how the ability looks.) Again, multiple WoG + in-game statements > Guidebook.

You realize the inconsistent logic in this, right? You acknowledge that the guide calls it a time slow, then say that Kamiya and other game texts say it’s a speed boost. However the same texts you’re referencing, say that the boosts are another attribute of witch time, and not what makes up the entire ability.

 

[swaggyzealot]

“Temporal control is not just simply being able to recognize this world, it also enables one to boost their physical abilities and move freely within that single moment.”

Yes, he says, "boost their physical abilities." Not time control/a time slow, but "boost their physical abilities." This is not an "addtion," this is how the power is stated to work, just as a boost in their physical abilities.

while also ignoring the many in game inconsistencies. Much like weekly said, you can’t just “resist” someone speed boosting themselves, that makes no sense

There are no in-game inconsistencies. They aren't resisting someone's speed boosting themselves, the angels are moving faster. How is this hard to grasp?

“He is literally stating the Witch dies out, not referring to their ability of Witch Time. Please re-read his sentence.”

He is very clearly making a metaphor on witch time, an ability that manipulates time, and how the witches vanished from their passage of time due to their deaths. I read it plenty of times.

He brings it up because of the word "time," and how the witches faded from "the passage time." This is not in reference to Witch Time's powers. And yes, it is a metaphor, which by definition reads, "a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable."

As weekly posted, they do reference witch time as much more than a speed boost. “Unleash temporal witch powers.” What part of that sounds like a speed boost? She even uses the statues, which I again pointed out is used to aid their control over time. To say that witches don’t manipulate time.. is to deny entire plot points established in Bayonetta 2, and why the eyes of the world exist in the first place. The witches are described as overseeers of history and time, it’s very in your face about it.

Once more, as I said in the OP:

"Witch Time, the Umbra's technique, and Light Speed, the Lumen's, are a form of "Temporal Control." Temporal Control is described as a "technique [that] sharped all of the five senses, and enables one to boost their physical abilities." Now, that doesn't really sound like time manipulation, and nothing in the document suggests that this ability is time control, besides the name itself; but even then, "temporal" can refer to "relating to worldly as opposed to spiritual affairs," which is in line with describing the physical body/perceived world."

You realize the inconsistent logic in this, right? You acknowledge that the guide calls it a time slow, then say that Kamiya and other game texts say it’s a speed boost. However the same texts you’re referencing, say that the boosts are another attribute of witch time, and not what makes up the entire ability.

Again, I really only find the inconsistent logic within your reasoning.
"The only evidence (that I've found), for Witch Time being a time slow, is within 5 lines of the game guide, and the Smash Bro's trailer (which wouldn't matter anyway, since it isn't canon).

All other sources, multiple WoG statements and in-game texts, state Bayonetta can speed herself up. (In-game feats can be said for either way, since as I said before, time is relative, so it wouldn't make a difference to how the ability looks.) Again, multiple WoG + in-game statements > Guidebook."

A guidebook written by an employee, shouldn't be taken over multiple WoG + in-game statements.

 

[swaggyzealot]

One more, AGAIN, all your points on how Witch Time is explicitly said to be time manipulation ARE NOT TRUE.

Witch Time is never said to be time manipulation by any characters. Witch Time is never shown to be time manipulation. Witch Time is never said to be time manipulation even in tutorials.

Reading the in-game documents will tell you this, and you are literally linking documents where Witch Time is NOT explicitly said to be time manipulation.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Y'know....Witch Time could also be more than one power. It doesn't have to be one or the other. I still believe that going by this speed boost logic, it seems to be Time Acceleration. But even without counting it as Time Manipulation, and just Powerful Speed amp, the end result ends up the same.

 

[swaggyzealot]

Y'know....Witch Time could also be more than one power. It doesn't have to be one or the other. I still believe that going by this speed boost logic, it seems to be Time Acceleration.

There is no conclusive evidence to say that. There are no in-game visual representations of Witch Time explicitly being a time slow or speed, by virtue of how these powers would work. Time is relative, so slowing down time for the world is the same thing as speeding up time for yourself - in both cases, what you're doing is manipulating the relationship your time has with your environment's time. When Bayo uses witch time to change the relationship between her time and her environment's time, all "[property] over time" equations and all equations related to those are affected at once. Force, velocity, weight, inertia, everything."

Again, since this is the most readily apt example, "We don't say Quicksilver has a timeslow (since we explicitly know he's just increasing his speed), even though time "slows" down - he is manipulating the relationship his time has with his environment's time (but it is still considered a speed boost).

And again, Kamiya has stated that "both Witch Time and Light Speed are not about manipulating time, but rather speeding up the user."

 

[Comicgyal]

Yes, he says, "boost their physical abilities." Not time control/a time slow, but "boost their physical abilities." This is not an "addtion," this is how the power is stated to work, just as a boost in their physical abilities.

There are no in-game inconsistencies. They aren't resisting someone's speed boosting themselves, the angels are moving faster. How is this hard to grasp?

He brings it up because of the word "time," and how the witches faded from "the passage time." This is not in reference to Witch Time's powers. And yes, it is a metaphor, which by definition reads, "a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable."


Once more, as I said in the OP:

"Witch Time, the Umbra's technique, and Light Speed, the Lumen's, are a form of "Temporal Control." Temporal Control is described as a "technique [that] sharped all of the five senses, and enables one to boost their physical abilities." Now, that doesn't really sound like time manipulation, and nothing in the document suggests that this ability is time control, besides the name itself; but even then, "temporal" can refer to "relating to worldly as opposed to spiritual affairs," which is in line with describing the physical body/perceived world."


Again, I really only find the inconsistent logic within your reasoning.
"The only evidence (that I've found), for Witch Time being a time slow, is within 5 lines of the game guide, and the Smash Bro's trailer (which wouldn't matter anyway, since it isn't canon).

All other sources, multiple WoG statements and in-game texts, state Bayonetta can speed herself up. (In-game feats can be said for either way, since as I said before, time is relative, so it wouldn't make a difference to how the ability looks.) Again, multiple WoG + in-game statements > Guidebook."

A guidebook written by an employee, shouldn't be taken over multiple WoG + in-game statements.

Are you simply not reading?

“Yes, he says, "boost their physical abilities." Not time control/a time slow, but "boost their physical abilities." This is not an "addtion," this is how the power is stated to work, just as a boost in their physical abilities.”

The quote itself says;
“As “Overseers of History,” they possessed the ability to literally see everything in an instant, also known as Temporal Control. This technique sharpened all of the five senses, and pushed one’s emotional energy to its very limits. It is a world where a falling drop of water can become a crown, and a humming-bird slowly and elegantly flaps its wings. Temporal Control is not just simply being able to recognize this world, it also enables one to boost their physical abilities and move freely within that single moment.”

“They possessed an ability to see everything in an instant, this is also known as temporal control.” This is statement 1.

“Temporal Control is not just simply being able to recognize this world, it also enables one to boost their physical abilities and move freely within that single moment.” This is statement 2. You are focusing on just ONE ASPECT of the entire quote, when Antonio broke it into TWO segments. Temporal control, and how it enables you to boost your physical abilities. As I said before, witch time is both Temporal Manipulation AND a physical boost. How is this flying past you? Or better yet, why are you choosing to ignore the first part of evidence that YOU brought?

“There are no in-game inconsistencies. They aren't resisting someone's speed boosting themselves, the angels are moving faster. How is this hard to grasp?”
This is just a baseless assumption, only one that you can make because of the in game inconsistency. Nothing hints that the angels are moving faster, when Jeanne stacks witch time AGAIN the angels move slower for the duration of that level. They are not moving faster, infact when you witch time some angels they barely move at all.

"Witch Time, the Umbra's technique, and Light Speed, the Lumen's, are a form of "Temporal Control." Temporal Control is described as a "technique [that] sharped all of the five senses, and enables one to boost their physical abilities." Now, that doesn't really sound like time manipulation, and nothing in the document suggests that this ability is time control, besides the name itself; but even then, "temporal" can refer to "relating to worldly as opposed to spiritual affairs," which is in line with describing the physical body/perceived world."

“This technique sharpened all the five senses (allowing to see the world in a single instant) and pushed one’s emotional energy to its very limits.” This doesn’t sound time manipulation to someone ignoring lore, but Ingame it clearly tells you that witch time is tied to their emotions. Not whatever physical body/perceived world nonsense, it literally tells you that due to temporal control, it sharpens their senses and allows them to see the world in just one moment.

“A guidebook written by an employee, shouldn't be taken over multiple WoG + in-game statements.”
You realize that kamiya isn’t the only one who made the game? Kamiya isn’t the one who wrote the official Bayonetta website, or designed angels, and plenty of other choices in the game. If you watched the documentary to the end, the “employees” sitting right next to him are the ones who helped with a lot of it. The 2-C feat we have right now was brought up by an “Employee” people who actually helped design the game has just as much leverage. If anything Kamiya is inconsistent, since he himself stated that the design team didn’t tell him certain information before adding it.

Y'know....Witch Time could also be more than one power. It doesn't have to be one or the other. I still believe that going by this speed boost logic, it seems to be Time Acceleration. But even without counting it as Time Manipulation, and just Powerful Speed amp, the end result ends up the same.

This is what I’ve been arguing. It is a speed boost, but it is also time control to a degree. It’s two powers crafted into one, which is what ACTUALLY fits the description Antonio makes.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Note how I also said that even noting it isn't Time Accel, the result pretty much stays the same.

I will say, Kamiya's tweet has some odd wording. He says they are faster than manipulating time which would put Witch Time above say Time Manipulation or something which is weird.

Also, any counter for this?

"1:42:43 Another instance of an Angel that isnt Jubileus being unaffected by Witch Time. Either theyre faster than Jubileus or its time slow, the latter of which is further supported by Bayo moving the rocks she touches as they are being interacted with by her but the ones she doesnt arent moving until she deactivates it and they immediately fall, consistent with the mechanics of the door feat above."

 

[swaggyzealot]

I will say, Kamiya's tweet has some odd wording. He says they are faster than manipulating time which would put Witch Time above say Time Manipulation or something which is weird.

You cannot use the auto translate for an accurate translation, he explicitly say this, "both Witch Time and Light Speed are not about manipulating time, but rather speeding up the user. Since you distrust my translation, for whatever reason, you should try to outsource it to someone else who can provide an accurate translation not via software (i.e. use a translation subreddit). But I am not lying to you, that is what the translation reads.

 

[Comicgyal]

As for Kamiya Twitter statements again, I asked him if Paradiso was infinitely large before and he said maybe. His Twitter account is not an accurate mean of reference, and should stop being brought up.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

You cannot use the auto translate for an accurate translation, he explicitly say this, "both Witch Time and Light Speed are not about manipulating time, but rather speeding up the user. Since you distrust my translation, for whatever reason, you should try to outsource it to someone else who can provide an accurate translation not via software (i.e. use a translation subreddit). But I am not lying to you, that is what the translation reads.

Bolding your point doesn't make it better, you are overusing this bolding, take it down a notch. This auto translation has nothing telling me that it is inaccurate and I have no reason to believe you over it. Show me where you got your translation and give me a reason to why I should trust your translation of said tweet. It is up to you to show me that your translation should take priority over the translation given by twitter itself. All you keep linking is the untranslated text with no other translation means available. You're just saying "It's not trustworthy, but my translation is" without telling me why I should believe you over it. i.e expecting me to just listen and believe.

 

[swaggyzealot]

“Temporal Control is not just simply being able to recognize this world, it also enables one to boost their physical abilities and move freely within that single moment.” This is statement 2. You are focusing on just ONE ASPECT of the entire quote, when Antonio broke it into TWO segments. Temporal control, and how it enables you to boost your physical abilities. As I said before, witch time is both Temporal Manipulation AND a physical boost. How is this flying past you? Or better yet, why are you choosing to ignore the first part of evidence that YOU brought?

FROM THE OP:

"Witch Time, the Umbra's technique, and Light Speed, the Lumen's, are a form of "Temporal Control." Temporal Control is described as a "technique [that] sharped all of the five senses, and enables one to boost their physical abilities." Now, that doesn't really sound like time manipulation, and nothing in the document suggests that this ability is time control, besides the name itself; but even then, "temporal" can refer to "relating to worldly as opposed to spiritual affairs," which is in line with describing the physical body/perceived world.

Nevertheless, finding this text file did confuse me, so I went to twitter to ask Hideki Kamiya, the director of Bayo1 and writer of both games, to clarify on how this ability works. Specifically, I asked him on how the Lumen's Light Speed ability works (since I was writing a Respect Thread on a Lumen character, and it is what initially brought me to the above text file). Kamiya has since said that "both Witch Time and Light Speed are not about manipulating time, but rather speeding up the user."

I honestly thought he was messing with me, since he is know to troll people on twitter before, but upon combing over old interviews, art books, and even strategy guides, I've found it fairly common to describe Witch Time as to "slow down time in-game," and describe the "slow effect as a mechanic." Witch Time is also never referred to as time manipulation within either of the games. Seriously, I’ve probably spent way too much time going over everything and every time Witch Time is brought up it is never said to be time manipulation. Insane.

And as proof Kamiya isn't just making shit up a decade after the game was released, here, in an interview 3 months after the game came out, Kamiya states that "Witch Time is a skill that activates super-fast movement." Not slowing down time/time manipulation, but fast movement.

This means that representations of Witch Time and Light Speed in gameplay are merely for the player. Similar to how in manga/anime, when certain characters move so fast that everything appears frozen, Bayonetta is doing the exact same thing. WT and LS are not slowing or stopping time, they are just speeding up the user."

Interpreting Witch Time to both be time manipulation and a speed-boost is incorrect.

Kamiya is the director of the first game, and writer of both games.

Again, Witch Time is never said to be time manipulation by any characters. Witch Time is never shown to be time manipulation. Witch Time is never said to be time manipulation even in tutorials. Witch Time is referred to as a "speed-boosting ability" by reputable, in-game texts, an-info prompt, and multiple WoG statements: a recent twitter post, and an interview 3 months after the game was release.

Since you are clear denial, there doesn't seem any way to convince you otherwise. I implore everyone to read my statements, since at this point I am simply repeating myself over and over.


An edit for clarification:
Comicgyal said: “Temporal Control is not just simply being able to recognize this world, it also enables one to boost their physical abilities and move freely within that single moment.” This is statement 2. You are focusing on just ONE ASPECT of the entire quote, when Antonio broke it into TWO segments. Temporal control, and how it enables you to boost your physical abilities. As I said before, witch time is both Temporal Manipulation AND a physical boost. How is this flying past you? Or better yet, why are you choosing to ignore the first part of evidence that YOU brought?

Yes, and how does his wording of Temporal Control suggest that it is time manipulation? If you read the document fully, as I have, there are no mentions of time manipulation - it is simply describing it as a boost. Witch Time IS Temporal Control. Temporal Control IS a physical boost. I am not ignoring anything, I simply posses reading comprehension. Re-read the document again.

Comicgyal: This is just a baseless assumption, only one that you can make because of the in game inconsistency. Nothing hints that the angels are moving faster, when Jeanne stacks witch time AGAIN the angels move slower for the duration of that level. They are not moving faster, in fact when you witch time some angels they barely move at all.

Yes, the angels are not moving faster in that scene, since Bayonetta and Jeanne are moving faster than them. "Stacking" Witch Time is simply Bayonetta and Jeanne boosting their speed further, causing the angels to appear slower - the speed difference between them and the angels was increased. In other scenes, such as the Fortitduo boss fight, where the angel is active "under" Witch Time, the angel is moving faster/equal in this case, since it can keep up with Bayonetta's speed while she is boosting herself in Witch Time. This is an extremely simple concept.

Comicgyal: “This technique sharpened all the five senses (allowing to see the world in a single instant) and pushed one’s emotional energy to its very limits.” This doesn’t sound time manipulation to someone ignoring lore, but In-game it clearly tells you that witch time is tied to their emotions. Not whatever physical body/perceived world nonsense, it literally tells you that due to temporal control, it sharpens their senses and allows them to see the world in just one moment.

And once more, why would Witch Time being tied to emotions equate to time manipulation? Again, re-read the document, you are misunderstanding it. Witch Time IS Temporal Control. Temporal Control IS a physical boost. They are not separate things.

Comicgyal: This is what I’ve been arguing. It is a speed boost, but it is also time control to a degree. It’s two powers crafted into one, which is what ACTUALLY fits the description Antonio makes.

Re-read the document, carefully this time.

 

[swaggyzealot]

Bolding your point doesn't make it better, you are overusing this bolding, take it down a notch. This auto translation has nothing telling me that it is inaccurate and I have no reason to believe you over it. Show me where you got your translation and give me a reason to why I should trust your translation of said tweet. It is up to you to show me that your translation should take priority over the translation given by twitter itself. All you keep linking is the untranslated text with no other translation means available. You're just saying "It's not trustworthy, but my translation is" without telling me why I should believe you over it. i.e expecting me to just listen and believe.

Translation received from.

You cannot use the auto translate for an accurate translation, he explicitly say this, "both Witch Time and Light Speed are not about manipulating time, but rather speeding up the user. Since you distrust my translation, for whatever reason, you should try to outsource it to someone else who can provide an accurate translation not via software (i.e. use a translation subreddit). But I am not lying to you, that is what the translation reads.

Translations software for certain languages (ex. Japanese), are notoriously inaccurate, this is just a known fact. I don't know how to convince you otherwise.

"1:42:43 Another instance of an Angel that isnt Jubileus being unaffected by Witch Time. Either theyre faster than Jubileus or its time slow, the latter of which is further supported by Bayo moving the rocks she touches as they are being interacted with by her but the ones she doesnt arent moving until she deactivates it and they immediately fall, consistent with the mechanics of the door feat above."

Just repasting what I have already written:

"The enemies who are "immune" to Witch Time, are not demonstrating time slow/stop resistance, but instead are just matching Bayonetta's speed in WT. And even if we want to say that Witch Time is a time slow, would it also not be "ridiculous" to say that Jubelius cannot resist time slows, while lower spheres can?"


"Time is relative, so slowing down time for the world is the same thing as speeding up time for yourself - in both cases, what you're doing is manipulating the relationship your time has with your environment's time.

I always imagined that Flash and other physics-breaking speed/time characters, when using a time-slow ability OR a speed-up ability, are actually... well, I haven't come up with a better way to say this but, "existing faster". Bayo isn't just moving faster - if she doubles her speed with witch time, then every property of Bayo related to time doubles in favor of increasing her forces-over-time and reducing all other forces-over-time, but only relative to each other. So the punches she throws are twice as fast, have twice as much mass, exert double reactive forces on impact while receiving half reactive forces from her target, etc, from the perspective of whatever is outside of her personal witch time.

This is how Flash is able to lift a giant gorilla over his head like it's nothing when running at super-speed. When he travels at ten times normal speed, he's multiplying his forces-over-time by ten relative to his environment, so he's also receiving less force from his cargo, because his cargo is accelerating downwards relatively ten times slower and he's accelerating it upwards ten times faster, even though from his perspective he's just raising his arms.

When Bayo uses witch time to change the relationship between her time and her environment's time, all "[property] over time" equations and all equations related to those are affected at once. Force, velocity, weight, inertia, everything. And when Jeanne counters witch time with her own, she's changing the relationship between her time and Bayo's back to 1:1, while still maintaining the massive difference in time between herself and her environment."

 

[Comicgyal]

Should Comicgyal and Weekly summarise their arguments, and the other side summarise their arguments as well, after which I call more staff members here to help evaluate this?

That would be a good idea.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Im still working through the second game