Guacamolefletcher
Username Only- 2,012
- 2,243
This weekend, I'm finally gonna be able to watch all the shit I wanted to. I'm boutta binge Bleach for like hours and hours
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
BAN-KAI! Bleach General Discussion
- Thread starter Zoro21043
- Start date
- 11,607
- 3,131
the manga didn't had parings?
ReaperAndBlues
He/Him- 3,477
- 3,690
Pretty sure the manga did. But the anime went far darker route and went to straight up purge most of the main characters.
- 11,856
- 8,634
What anime original endings do to a series
ReaperAndBlues
He/Him- 3,477
- 3,690
Tokyo Ghoul moment
- 11,856
- 8,634
Well, I mean, Root A was forgotten once Re was adapted, so I guess it's good?
A shame it has the best opening in the series
ReaperAndBlues
He/Him- 3,477
- 3,690
One of the most iconic anime openings of all time
- 11,856
- 8,634
Munou is iconic?
Apollonir.Scale
He/Him- 1,109
- 626
I forgot to answer this yesterday.
I don't think all characters can read power levels. If everyone can read, what's left of Pesquisa?
Yammy miscalculates despite having Pesquisa. He couldn't calculate the power of an ordinary person like Tatsuke and asked Uluqiorra "Is that girl strong?"
Grimmjow still believes that he can kill TS Ichigo despite seeing him. If he could read power levels, he would know that it's impossible.
And it's not just Grimmjow. Many characters in the series think that their opponents are weak. Think of the characters who tried to kill Yamamoto and died. If they knew how strong he was, they wouldn't attack out of fear. The same goes for Zaraki.
Just because a character can see spirits doesn't mean they can read reiatsu levels. Unless there is concrete evidence that a character can read power levels (like having Pesquisa, for example), we shouldn't accept it.
According to the wiki, in order to use Pesquisa, it is necessary to close your eyes and enter a meditative state. Since Grimmjow did not close his eyes and enter a meditative state against TS Ichigo, it is not considered that he used Pesquisa and indirectly read his power level. Another way to use it is to read his power by placing your finger on the ground like Nnoitra did. It has also been stated that Uluqiorra is the best Pesquisa user.
I think this is expressed in English as "Not being all out". I don't know how to express it since it's not my native language.
Urahara, I'm sure Ichigo said that because of Ichigo's instant power increase. Why would he need to be Full Power against someone he's already trained with? He says his worst arm got torn off. Besides, if a character is not in combat, that is, if they are "off guard", their stats will drop anyway.
A few examples
1) Tosen gets hit unexpectedly by Hisagi and loses the fight. In that scene, Hisagi thought he was defeated and out of combat. Considering that Tosen has at least 100 times more power than Shikai Hisagi, it's very possible that his durability would drop when he's off guard.
2) There's not a huge power difference between Luppi and Grimmjow. Despite this, Grimmjow one-shotted Luppi. Because Luppi was out of combat and thought Aizen would protect him from Grimmjow.
Urahara also sees Ichigo's Getsuga Tensho for the first time. He didn't expect this level of power.
Unless Urahara says something like "I'm rusty, I'm not as strong as I used to be", we can't say he's weakened. Yoruichi lost her Zanpaktou and started bulking up after the battle with Yammy. But Urahara didn't say he's weakened, nor did he train until Fake Karakura Town.
Edit: And I don't know what "Clyde" means
For Gin, I would say Gin>Harribel. That's because Aizen said let's go to Gin and Tosen after killing Harribel.
Let me present an argument that I haven't presented before.
The 3 arrancar girls next to Harribel use Resurection in the arrancar saga and summon Ayon. In the fight against Quilge, they summon Ayon without Resurection. FKT Ayon>TYBW Ayon. Ayon was beating Quilge. Quilge was weaker than him unless he absorbed him.
Harribel>Resurection Ayon>Wihout Resurection Ayon>Volstandig Quilge~~Fullbringer Bankai Ichigo
I'm currently reading the CFYOW Novel. From what I've heard before, Liltotto is afraid of Harribel. If it's true, the scaling is as follows:
Harribel>Base Liltotto>Meninas>Robert
and Bakuya uses Bankai against Robert. He feels the need to back down against Candice. According to the profiles, Candice got the Ap feat over Byakuya. It was also stated that Liltotto and Meninas were stronger than Candice.
Liltotto is a very powerful character. One of the strongest non-elite quincy
Royd>Gremmy>Bambietta>Quilge>Liltotto
The statement he used for Yammy should not be interpreted as just power. Zaraki stands out with his brute strength, while Byakuya stands out with his nobility. In the CFYOW novel, when Hisagi was compared to other characters, it was said that he was "not as noble as Byakuya" and "does not have Zaraki's brute strength". I do not think it is right to interpret it as just power.
Also, can't such statements be an exaggeration? There is a statement for Grimmjow that he surpasses his own race.
ReaperAndBlues
He/Him- 3,477
- 3,690
I forgot you were talking about the other. Got it confused with Unravel. It's been a minute have mercy
Excellence616
He/Him- 6,139
- 4,412
Any Soul can read power level. Even weak Souls like Tatsuki can sense power level except Transcendent
Yammy is a dummy
He just wants to fight. He doesn't care if he dies. Bro loves to fight.
Anyone who tried daring Yamamoto either they were being cocky or came to send a message
Guacamolefletcher
Username Only- 2,012
- 2,243
If he wasn't all out, he could've literally unsuppress himself, and no sold it. He made no indication of this, the databook makes no indication of this, and if anything implies the opposite. This is an unsupported and contradicted conclusion.
He wasn't offguard, he was literally standing there seeing it coming. He literally had time to go "scream: benihime"
He can sense power, and he has time to sense it and unsuppress himself. also people can feel power without having to actively look for it.
There is no stated power connection between TYBW Ayon and FKT Ayon, so you can't make that argument.
Except, via direct scaling, Fullbring Bankai Ichigo >>>>>>>> SAFWY Zaraki >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Harribel
That's not what the statement is saying, and there is no other way of interpreting it. Nobility doesn't factor into being stronger than other people here. Being able to put a dent in Byakuya is an issue of strength, and he fulfills the criteria, meaning he's worthy of the position which means he's the strongest out of all of them.
- 19,346
- 28,526
Pesquisa is just an enhanced spiritual sensory technique of the Arrancar/their version of the reikaku (spirit ribbons that Ichigo utilizes in the first arc). Also, the existence of Pesquisa does not disprove the notion that characters can read power levels. Your argument here is pure incredulity.
Yammy explicitly is not utilizing his Pesquisa in that situation, hence why Ulquiorra says as such. Also, later in the arc Yammy explicitly senses Ulquiorra and Ichigo's battle.
If you know anything about Grimmjow, or have read CFYOW (which is accepted as canon here), you'd know that it is in character for Grimmjow to pick fights with people even if he instinctually knows he cannot win. That much is stated verbatim in CFYOW. So, this is a nonpoint, as regardless of if Grimmjow believes it's impossible or not, he'd pick the fight regardless.
This might be difficult to comprehend, but characters can be flawed, and in particular that flaw can be arrogance. Not every single character is a soulless, logical, mechanical robot. Look at Byakuya vs Zommari for example, the entire point of that fight is the difference between their two prides, Zommari is immensely arrogant because of his hax, mistakeningly believing he can defeat Byakuya. Point being, the arrogance of characters, who by definition are fallable, does not entail your conclusion.
Luckily we don't claim that because a character can sense spirits they can read reiatsu level. We have explicit feats of characters sensing reiatsu levels and reading them.
The Bleach wiki is wrong. Also, Ulquiorra being the best at Pesquisa (provide that scan please), and Nnoitra being able to do so via touching the ground, doesn't mean that only Ulquiorra can read reiatsu levels or that only if you touch the ground you can do so. Both of these points don't entail any conclusion in support of your premise.
Nope, it's actually stated and implied to be the opposite. It's just stated that Kisuke had to actually try to block the Getsuga.
Prove that claim. You're asserting Urahara is off guard or that his power level stays stagnant throughout the series without providing any evidence of that whatsoever. If you're just going to posit and unsubstantiated claim, I can dismiss it with an equally unsubstantiated interpretation. We know characters can grow rusty after many years out of combat, like Yoruichi, and given Kisuke has been in exile, not doing any strenuous combat, we have due reason to believe he isn't at his peak at the start of the series, and can thus grow stronger over time.
Furthermore, Kisuke being ~Ulquiorra level months before he fights Aizen by no means makes him not Aizen level. Kisuke can simply have gotten stronger. YOU need to prove that Kisuke months before the fight with Aizen is the same level of strength as the Kisuke that fought Aizen.
Prove that means he's off guard. You can be fighting seriously and be surprised at your opponent's power.
We actually don't need Urahara to explicitly say he's rusty to assume he's weaker. If there's nothing that indicates his power level stays the same over time, then better feats over time indicate he got stronger. You're attempting to shift the burden of proof away from yourself, but that's just not going to happen. Also, prove he didn't train for the fight against Aizen, since we explicitly know he was preparing for that fight which indicates the opposite conclusion.
You keep making claims without substantiating them whatsoever. A piece of advice, when you make a claim, you need to provide evidence for that claim.
He's notorious for shitty Bleach takes.
Why does the Tres Bestias Resurreccion make Ayon stronger? And what basis do you have to compare Ayon after a 2 year time skip? This is a baseless claim.
I'm not going to address your scaling chain since it's all predicated on a false premise. Until you prove FKT Ayon > TYBW Ayon, the above is all useless ramble.
Not really sure what you're trying to say here. But Zaraki being notable for being a berserker while Byakuya is notable for his aristocracy doesn't mean anything for Yammy.
Statements can be exaggeration. However, you need to provide due reasoning to assume a statement is exaggerated. You can't just handwave a statement because stuff can be hyperbolic unless you provide evidence for it being hyperbolic.
- 11,607
- 3,131
I don’t know about the finale being Bazz-B vs Jugram. Is not something that can top Cour 2 ending. Unless, we see a lot of what happened 1,000 years ago and we see Yhwach’s defeat against Yamamoto instead of small clip flashbacks and Bazz-B and Jugram’s perspectives. I don’t think it would be enough as many casual viewers don’t care about Bazz-B and Jugram. But that’s just my point of view. Anyone want to tell me otherwise? I just don’t feel the vibe. I hope is something so awesome that my low expectations are blown out of the water. Really hope so.
- 19,346
- 28,526
I thoroughly enjoy the Friends saga, but I'm a massive Jugram fan so there's that. I think an extended in depth flashback that has loads of Quincy and Soul King lore would be an awesome finale. I remember back in 2015/16 thinking this arc needed a turn back the pendulum style flashback, and I think the anime can turn Friends saga into that.
Guacamolefletcher
Username Only- 2,012
- 2,243
I think it's interesting that BazzB and Jugram are very very likely a similar age to Unohana, and far far far older than Ukitake and Shunsui. I feel like people don't point this out.
Also the fact that we know they were Sternritters, and some of the Quincy we saw Yamamoto bring back were their underlings or something like that. At least, we know that they died while Bazz-B and Jugram didn't, so it'd be interesting to know why and how they survived.
great response, lol
Also, tip:
please don't use the Bleach wiki as sources. It's great for finding the places of fights and shit like that, cause they're good with citations sometimes, but the mods are bad with lore.
Last edited:
PerezosoUlixes
He/Him- 44
- 77
Isn't Clyde the same guy that scales Ulquiorra to the feats of Hell movie's Full Hollow Ichigo?
Also I remember him saying that Yamamoto has trascendental power levels by Ukitake statements about his Shikai
- 613
- 113
Some guys here think otherwise and it's hella funny
Seems fine except liltotto is the strongest among bambis.
Ayon absorbed quilgie should be above bambis as well.
But royd > gremmy > rest of the sternritter is fine.
Apollonir.Scale
He/Him- 1,109
- 626
Which is stronger, the Summon formed by 3 characters with ressurection or the Summon formed by the same 3 characters with their base forms? You are the one who needs to prove that summons like Ayon can become stronger over time, my friend. I gave you the ressurection example to explain why FKT Ayon>TYBW Ayon. So can you show me something other than an assumption that can prove TYBW Ayon>FKT Ayon?
Also, if we say that Ayon's power did not increase or decrease, it will still be Harribel>Ayon>Volstandig Quilge. This also refutes the Low Tier Quincy>Espada idea.
Could you please write down these abilities for me? And do Ginjo and Tsukishima have at least one of these abilities to read power levels? If they evaluate the Ichigo forms Orohime saw in his memory and say that Fullbringer Ichigo is stronger, then Orohime must also have an ability to read power levels and use it.
Apollonir.Scale
He/Him- 1,109
- 626
So why Fullbring Bankai Ichigo>Safwy Zaraki?
- 1,984
- 1,592
Not only that, he genuinely believes that if Segunda Etapa Ulquiorra was dropped into the Fake Karakura Town arc, the only who could beat him is Yamamoto. He also believes that Ulquiorra would wipe the floor with most of the Stern Ritters.
Yeah... his takes aren't great.Also I remember him saying that Yamamoto has trascendental power levels by Ukitake statements about his Shikai
- 1,984
- 1,592
Fulbring Bankai Ichigo had a fairly even fight with Yhwach while Kenpachi got destroyed by Royd Lloyd who only had 70-80% of base Yhwach's strength.
Apollonir.Scale
He/Him- 1,109
- 626
I remember it was Yhwach holding back and didn't Ichigo get a huge power boost for a moment there anyway?
- 1,984
- 1,592
Yhwach was holding back, but Ichigo still managed to severely burn Yhwach's arm even though Yhwach used Blut Vene.
I don't think so (at least, I don't remember him having a boost). He was pretty tired and injured after being trapped in the Jail, and the only "boost" he has was being able to use Blut... but he can't control it and only unconsciously used Blut Vene, not Blut Arterie.
- 11,607
- 3,131
I'm glad some people like it. And I hope I am 100% wrong because I want the finale to be awesome and keep the hype for next Cour.
- 11,080
- 19,553
She explicitly can sense and generally measure the strength of spiritual pressure, which is something that doodoo-tier Fullbringers like Soul Society Arc Chad can do.
There definitely does exist feats of Tsukishima and Ginjo sensing spiritual pressure/energy without using the Orihime argument, but I don't feel like scouring through the Fullbring Arc to find them for you when you should already know this intuitively if you've ever read the series before. Sensing spiritual energy is a bog-standard thing that anyone who is notable in the series can do, with few, explicitly made, exceptions. Which doesn't exist for the aforementioned two characters.
Apollonir.Scale
He/Him- 1,109
- 626
You misunderstood me, my friend. I didn't ask if they can sense spirits. I asked if they can read power levels. It's also possible that they can sense spirits but not fully understand how powerful the spirit's owner is.
From the manga scans you sent, I can only see that they can sense spirits, understand emotions through the spirit, and understand that someone is coming through the spirit.
- 11,080
- 19,553
If you actually sat down and read the scans, specifically this one, you'd realize she makes mention of regardless of how strong Ichigo's spiritual pressure gets, she will always know it's Ichigo's because of its 'scent", which inherently means she is sensing the strength of it as she wouldn't bring up the strength of it if it was something completely imperceivable to her. It's a necessary conclusion to make because the grammatical structure necessarily implies it.
Excellence616
He/Him- 6,139
- 4,412
Ichigo was enraged
PerezosoUlixes
He/Him- 44
- 77
Actually, there's no proof that Ayon would be stronger or weaker depending on which state the Tres Bestias were evoking it. Not only that, we could easily say that it's actually stronger in its second appearance by feats alone. Defeating a Vollständig Quilge that was tanking without any trace of difficulty Fullbring Shikai Ichigo's Getsuga Tensho is just a better feat than beating some Lieutenants.
Also, I don't know if it was a typo, but Vollständig Quilge is not in any way relative to FB Ichigo.
Your disbelief of something happening is not a proof of any kind. Just because you think Ayon would be stronger if summoned by the Tres Bestias in Resurrección rather than in their Base form, it doesn't make it true. And the proof you want is directly shown by Ayon
- 613
- 113
There's many reason why it is a fact.
And with current bleach scaling, yukio's dimension destruction gonna be a thing as well. Zaraki is just not that guy. He is much actually far below FB ichigo, it's not even arguable
Guacamolefletcher
Username Only- 2,012
- 2,243
There is no stated connection between Ayon's power in base vs Resureccion. Ayon in the FKT is super strong, but let's not act like he didn't fail to competely erase Iba with a Cero.
You are making a fallacy here called "shifting the burden of proof," when it's yours to prove that Ayon in the FKT > Ayon in the TYBW. There is no inherent connection in the scaling.
Fullbring Bankai Ichigo is considered by everyone to be stronger than TYBW Zaraki? He does good against Base Yhwach, same one who was capable of completely destroying TYBW Zaraki (who had already gotten stronger from his SAFWY form).
Also the dimension feat, where SAFWY Zaraki isn't capable of breaking Yukio's dimension, while Fullbring Bankai Ichigo is capable of breaking that dimension. It's explicitly stated than an all-out assault from SAFWY Zaraki can't, while Ichigo can just by transforming.
she can sense Reiatsu, we've literally seen this in the story
LOOOOOL I forgot about this, when I was the one that implemented that revision
Can you prove Yhwach is holding back? Ichigo literally burns his arm mid-fight, and clashes with Yhwach constantly. Also, although he is heavily damaged by them, Ichigo survives a named attack from Yhwach. Also, given our scaling, this is very consistent.
You have Ichigo become < Urahara (given the Quilge-absorbed Ayon scaling), and also relative to Yamamoto, which allowed him to be at that Yhwach tier of power, and then fight him. At the same time, once Kenpachi becomes > 70-80% of base Yhwach's power, he becomes capable of fighting Fullbring Bankai Ichigo. It's all internally consistent.
- 1,984
- 1,592
- 11,856
- 8,634
I interrupt this discussion to give out my top 5 endings
1. Thank You - Home Made Kazoku
2. Song For - Rookiez is Punk'd
3. Endroll - Yoh Kamiya
4. Haruka Kanata - Secret Zero
5. Kimi wo Mamotte, Kimi wo Ashite - Sambomaster
1. Thank You - Home Made Kazoku
2. Song For - Rookiez is Punk'd
3. Endroll - Yoh Kamiya
4. Haruka Kanata - Secret Zero
5. Kimi wo Mamotte, Kimi wo Ashite - Sambomaster
PerezosoUlixes
He/Him- 44
- 77
We actually can easily say he's, in fact, not holding back as he explicitly states that he intents to crush Ichigo as he leaves Yhwach no other choice. Also, we see Yhwach going for a fatal blow against Ichigo, as he tries to cut his throat while in the ground.
Apollonir.Scale
He/Him- 1,109
- 626
I get what you mean but in FKT Arc Ayon defeated the Lieutenants and then was destroyed by Yamamoto. So defeating the lieutenants doesn't mean he is max lieutenant level. The characters that were there at that time and faced him were lieutenants. You think like that because someone stronger than the lieutenant faced him in TYBW. Think of Quilge in FKT arc. In that case, Ayon will still be able to fight Quilge.
This can also be interpreted as his soul having a strong sense. In fact, at the beginning of the SS Arc, when someone powerful comes, they can feel his reiatsu. Yamamoto was also called "transcended reiatsu". Yammy can feel reiatsu without pesquisa, but he still has to use pesquisa to understand someone's power level.
Apollonir.Scale
He/Him- 1,109
- 626
Iba not dying would not be an anti-feat for Ayon in this case. It has been observed that most characters in the series cannot kill a character immediately even if they are much superior to him. Yamamoto>>>>>>>>>>>>Ayon but Ayon does not die in Yamamoto's first hit.
In TYBW, Yamamoto burns most of the quincy's but NaNaNa, Bazz B and As Nodt do not die, they just lose the match.
It must be proven that Rukia and Yukio know Zaraki's power level. Otherwise, this statement does not include Zaraki, and I remember Zaraki was wearing an eye patch there.
Similar threads
