Baki Strength CRT

[CuddleFox]

I never thought it made sense to scale the characters to 8-B+ anyway, that's not Yujiro's real strength nor his casual strength or anything. All it says is "Yujiro is stronger than that", but we already know that. We just arbitrary decided that it was something to scale Yujiro's casual strength when we made the calc.

What do all of you think? Do we ignore the 8-B scaling and replace it by a High 7-C for everyone?

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Yeah, I'm fine with getting rid of 8-B+ altogether. Every non-god tier should get varying levels of High 7-C+ or possibly/likely Low 7-B if they warrant that rating.

This is of course until we can find feats for the mid and high tiers higher than 9-A.

We would also need to deconstruct Baki's P&A into keys since he doesn't have all his abilities at once, but we can save that for another revision.

 

[EliminatorVenom]

I've heard that there was something about Olvia's strength being compared to Yujiro's own when he fought Baki as a 13 year old. I don't know if that's true, been quite some time since I last read Baki, but there's that.

It wouldn't be too far-fetched. It is stated, after all, that Yujiro improves every day, and not only that, but not at a slowpoke's rate. I'm trying to get the scan, apparently I forgot to save it, but it is indeed stated that Yujiro improves every day, and at least faster than Baki did at a certain point of the series...

Once I get it, I'll post the scan.

 

[EliminatorVenom]

Also, I have a question that may be relevant to this thread, but I don't know if I'm just misunderstanding it.

Why is Spec's feat only 9-A? I thought breaking the Statue of Liberty was higher.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

He didn't outright break it. He only destabilised it enough that it was going to collapse on its own.

 

[NotoriouSoda]

Yeah, I'm fine with getting rid of 8-B+ altogether. Every non-god tier should get varying levels of High 7-C+ or possibly/likely Low 7-B if they warrant that rating.

This is of course until we can find feats for the mid and high tiers higher than 9-A.

We would also need to deconstruct Baki's P&A into keys since he doesn't have all his abilities at once, but we can save that for another revision.(I.E there reason and scaling)

Agreed currently making a new scaling list with the tiers and it was hard fitting 8-B+ in their, give me some time and you guys will get the new keys

 

[EliminatorVenom]

He didn't outright break it. He only destabilised it enough that it was going to collapse on its own.

Fair enough.

 

[CuddleFox]

@NotoriouSoda Can you give us the new keys so we can start doing the changes? x)

 

[NotoriouSoda]

@NotoriouSoda Can you give us the new keys so we can start doing the changes? x)

Almost finished with them, I’ll put the finish them up when I get back on in when I can

 

[NotoriouSoda]

Alright I think I got it( if you guys have any problems with it, I can change them later) also sorry for the wait imao

Yujiro: At least Small City level+, likely Higher (Stated to be stronger than the entire US military including and other nations, even above an nuclear impact which includes the ICMB, which yields up to 5.5 megatons), Higher with Demon Back

Baki: At least Large Town level+, likely Small City level+ with Demon Back (Fought on even grounds with Biscuit Oliva, completely overpowered him with the demon back and force Pickle to transform) | At least Small City Level+, likely Higher (Managed to fight on par with Yujiro), Higher with Demon Back

Musashi Miyamoto*: At least Small City level+, likely Higher (Using his full power Musashi is capable of fighting Yujiro with his Demon Back), likely Higher at full power

Yuichiro Hanma: : At least Small City level+, likely Higher (Should be on par if not superior to his son), Higher with Demon Back

Pickle: At least Small City level+, likely Higher (Can fight on par with Yujiro in base, overpower Jack Hanma) | At least Small City Level+, likely Higher (Stated to be Yujiro equal in strength), Higher at full power

Kaku Kaioh: At least Small City level+, likely Higher with complete mastery over Shaori/Xiao-Lee (Shaori/Xiao-Lee produces hyposthenia, which allows Kaku Kaioh to absorb the whole body weight of his attacker. The ultimate hypostenia can absorb, contain and release 'the ultimate punch'. Using this technique to perfection, Kaku Kaioh, even though physically far weaker, was able to go toe-to-toe with Yujiro Hanma and even backed him into a corner for one moment)

Nomi no Sukune II: At least Small City level+, likely Higher (Fought on par with Baki Hanma)

Doppo (Prime)*: Large Town level+ ( Managed to keep up with a casual Yujiro, with Yujiro considered Doppo as strong enough to be defeated/killed by his true power) Note: Just like his profile Doppo should have low 7-b+ dura for his prime

Hanayama: Large Town level+ (Matched a casual Pickle) | At least Large Town level+, likely Small City level+ (Drew blood from Yujiro Hanma with a punch. Easily overpowered Musashi Miyamoto)

Katsumi*: Large Town level+ (Far superior to his father at this point and considered more of a threat to Pickle than SOO Retsu), Small City level+ with Hitless Blow (Made Pickle drop on his knees after hitting him with the full force of the True Mach Fist) | At least Large Town level+, likely Higher (By the time Katsumi had gotten Restu arm he had become far stronger than before), Higher with Retsu spirit, Small City level+ with Hitless Blow

Goki Shibukawa: Small Building level (Comparable to Doppo Orochi, and easily dealt damage to Yanagi), up to Small City level+ with Aiki (Easily counter Biscuit Oliva during his Judo practice and severely dislocate his wrist)

Biscuit Oliva: Large Town level+, likely Small City level+ (Able to fight on par with SOO Baki, force him to use Demon Back to defeat him)

Jack Hanma: Large Town level+ (Could harm Pickle and was the first fighter to make Pickle use his full power) | At least Large Town level+, likely Small City level+ (Stronger than before, superior to Motobe and could kill him despite him wearing ample amounts of armor)

Izou Motobe: At least Small Building level, likely far higher physically (Could stun Jack Hanma with his attacks), Large Town level+, likely Small City level+ with equipment (With his full set of weapons, defeated Jack Hanma and damage Musashi Miyamoto.)

Ron Shobun: Large Town level+ (Could damage a suppressed Oliva)

Jun Guevaru: Large Town level+ (Can damage and trade blows with Oliva)

Iwao Muneuchi: At most Large Town level+ (Is comparable to Prime state Doppo Orochi)

Retsu Kaioh: Large Town level+ (Far stronger than before, is comparable to SOO Katsumi) | At least Large Town level+, likely Higher (Far stronger than before. Harmed Musashi Miyamoto (Baki). After his battle with Musashi Miyamoto, the latter admitted to Tokugawa that their battle was on the level of Sekigahara)

holy shit that was long

 

[NotoriouSoda]

Also I found a new statement in which I found a scan which basically shows that its not only the US but all other nations that Yujiro is above them, which can show in way higher results like the ICBM missile(which looks exactly like one) which is 5.5 meagtons I believe this is still valid as there's supporting evidence for it as its still low 7-b but higher, anyone's thoughts? Should it go through?

 

[CuddleFox]

Ok for Yujiro.

Baki in base was very much inferior to Oliva, and he didn't completely overpower him with demon back, they were equal, Baki was just slightly more enduring. If you put Oliva at likely Small City level, you have to put SOO demon back baki at Likely Small City level.

Don't put twice likely higher to Musashi miyamoto. likely higher means a lot, we know he doesn't have the same strength in base and full power, that's enough.
If you really want to show a difference, I suggest to just take away his full power key and put his AP in At least small city level, likely higher, higher at full power.

Why not a likely higher for Kaku? He is clearly comparable to base Yujiro.

Ok for Sukune II

Ok for Prime Doppo.

Ok for my man Hanayama.

Katsumi did only a few Retsu technique by reflex, it's not enough to say that he mastered all his kenpo.

Shibukawa never fought with Doyle.
Shibukawa also countered Musashi and Sukune II with the Aiki, he should have at least a flat Small City level.

Indicates that Biscuit Oliva fought even with Demon back SOO baki. not Base SOO baki.

Ok for Jack.

If memetobe defeated Musashi, then Baki defeated Pickle and Yujiro. We shouldn't mislead people about their power ratio because the characters around said that he won by symbolism.

Ok for Shobun.

Ok for Guevara.

Iwao Muneuchi should be At most Large Town level+. He is clearly inferior to Prime Doppo.

Can you give a link to the counter move you're talking about? Ok for Retsu otherwise.


The at least Small city level should all be changed to Small City level, we are very close to the baseline and even if we know that Yujiro could tank an atomic bomb, we don't know how much damage he would take, in my opinion it is not enough for an "At least" Small City level.
But if we consider 5.5 megatons, then yes, At least Small City level sounds good. ^^

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I don't think we need a tier for casual Musashi. It should be understood through explanations in profiles that Musashi exerts different levels of effort against different people.

Like on Retsu's profile, it would mention that he could fight an impressed Musashi, while on Baki's page it would mention that he fought a serious Musashi.

Musashi's page should just be Low 7-B.

 

[NotoriouSoda]

Alright I fixed some of the characters keys and it’s looking good rn. But yeah I still want to talk about the Small city+ feat, as while there only the one(there could be more) there are more characters there backing it up

 

[CuddleFox]

I have no problem scaling Yujiro at 5.5 Mt.
If you really doubt, then put Small City level likely Small City level+

Shibukawa never fought with Doyle, why do you say he dealt damage to him? He fought with Yanagi. .w.

 

[NotoriouSoda]

I have no problem scaling Yujiro at 5.5 Mt.
If you really doubt, then put Small City level likely Small City level+

Shibukawa never fought with Doyle, why do you say he dealt damage to him? He fought with Yanagi. .w.

idk tired lol

Gonna wait for more input, and thanks the the previous speed thread we already got the speed scaling down

also memetobe ha nice

 

[NotoriouSoda]

Alright gonna go check on the rock crush feat to see how that going, after that I feel we can give this a day or 2 then we can add this.

 

[Amlad22]

Looks fine. Retsu shouldn’t have a possible small city level rating and should really only be large town from Baki Dou onwards. In SOO he’s way below that level of power that Hana and Jack showcase. This goes for Katsumi as well. Him and Retsu are in a weird place where they defiantly don’t scale to people like Oliva, but they aren’t fodder either. Perhaps we can look for any other feats that they would scale to.

I’ll say once more I think we should reconsider such a big upgrade, it creates an absurd gap between the 9-A character and at least to me, makes little sense taking everything into account. As always though, we make changes as a team and not individually.

 

[NotoriouSoda]

Looks fine. Retsu shouldn’t have a possible small city level rating and should really only be large town from Baki Dou onwards. In SOO he’s way below that level of power that Hana and Jack showcase. This goes for Katsumi as well. Him and Retsu are in a weird place where they defiantly don’t scale to people like Oliva, but they aren’t fodder either. Perhaps we can look for any other feats that they would scale to.

I’ll say once more I think we should reconsider such a big upgrade, it creates an absurd gap between the 9-A character and at least to me, makes little sense taking everything into account. As always though, we make changes as a team and not individually.

Would you say even for Dou II Katsumi would still not have a possible low 7-B+? But yeah re reading the chapters again I do agree with you on Retsu not scaling

Alright I updated both Keys and after looking though all of them I can say it satisfies me, your thoughts?

 

[NotoriouSoda]

So it seems like we’re in agreement of what the characters sit on, and for there speed while we have the scaling down. However since the calc is lower than the previous one, those who downscale get to become High Hypersonic+, thoughts?

Other than the Rock crushing feat I believe that’s gonna be all.

 

[CuddleFox]

Okay then.
I'm gonna make a list that summarize all the changes, so it will be simpler.
I'll leave it to you to edit the speeds, because that's the part I understood the least, to be honest. ^^

 

[CuddleFox]

Character	Key	Old Tier	New Tier
Baki Hanma	Raitai Tournament to Son of Ogre	Low 7-C, 7-C with Demon Back	At least Low 7-B, likely Low 7-B+ with Demon Back
Baki Hanma	End of Son of Ogre to Baki Dou	7-C in base. Up to 7-C, possibly higher with Demon Back	At least Low 7-B+, likely Higher in base, Higher with Demon Back
Jack Hanma	Son of Ogre	Low 7-C	Low 7-B
Jack Hanma	Baki Dou	At least Low 7-C	At least Low 7-B, likely Low 7-B+
Yuichiro	-	7-C, higher with Demon Back	At least Low 7-B+, likely Higher, Higher with Demon Back
Yujiro	-	7-C, higher with Demon Back	Low 7-B+, likely higher, higher with Demon Back
Oliva	-	7-C	Low 7-B, likely Low 7-B+
Hanayama	Son of Ogre	At least Low 7-C	Low 7-B
Hanayama	Baki Dou	At least Low 7-C, likely 7-C	At least Low 7-B, likely Low 7-B+
Pickle	Base	7-C	At least Low 7-B+, likely Higher, Higher at full power
Pickle	Transformed	7-C, possibly higher	---getting rid of it---
Motobe	Baki dou	At least 9-A, likely far higher physically, Low 7-C with equipment	At least 9-A, likely far higher physically, Low 7-B, likely Low 7-B+ with equipment
Musashi	Base	7-C	At least Low 7-B+, likely Higher at full power
Musashi	Full power	7-C, possibly higher	---get rid of it---
Kaku	Old	7-C with complete mastery over Shaori/Xiao-Lee.	At least Low 7-B+, likely Higher with complete mastery over Shaori/Xiao-Lee
Retsu	Son of Ogre	8-B	Low 7-B
Retsu	Baki dou	Low 7-C	At least Low 7-B, likely Higher
Ron Shobun	-	Low 7-C	Low 7-B
Guevara	-	At least Low 7-C, possibly 7-C	Low 7-B
Katsumi	Son of ogre	8-B, 7-C with Hitless Blow	Low 7-B, Low 7-B+ with Hitless Blow
Katsumi	Baki dou II	Nothing	At least Low 7-B, likely Higher, Higher with Retsu spirit, Low 7-B+ with Hitless Blow
Doppo	Prime	Low 7-C	Low 7-B
Iwao Muneuchi	-	At most 8-A, possibly Low 7-C	At most Low 7-B
Sukune	-	7-C	At least Low 7-B+, likely Higher
Shibukawa	-	9-A, up to 7-C with Aiki	9-A, up to Low 7-B+ with Aiki

Okay, that should be it.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

If you're using the Low 7-B+ end, that means the backscaling would be Low 7-B, not High 7-C+.

 

[NotoriouSoda]

Character	Key	Old Tier	New Tier
Baki Hanma	Raitai Tournament to Son of Ogre	Low 7-C, 7-C with Demon Back	At least High 7-C+, likely Low 7-B+ with Demon Back
Baki Hanma	End of Son of Ogre to Baki Dou	7-C in base. Up to 7-C, possibly higher with Demon Back	At least Low 7-B+, likely Higher in base, Higher with Demon Back
Jack Hanma	Son of Ogre	Low 7-C	High 7-C+
Jack Hanma	Baki Dou	At least Low 7-C	At least High 7-C+, likely Low 7-B+
Yuichiro	-	7-C, higher with Demon Back	At least Low 7-B+, likely Higher, Higher with Demon Back
Yujiro	-	7-C, higher with Demon Back	Low 7-B+, likely higher, higher with Demon Back
Oliva	-	7-C	High 7-C+, likely Low 7-B+
Hanayama	Son of Ogre	At least Low 7-C	High 7-C+
Hanayama	Baki Dou	At least Low 7-C, likely 7-C	At least High 7-C+, likely Low 7-B+
Pickle	Base	7-C	At least Low 7-B+, likely Higher, Higher at full power
Pickle	Transformed	7-C, possibly higher	---getting rid of it---
Motobe	Baki dou	At least 9-A, likely far higher physically, Low 7-C with equipment	At least 9-A, likely far higher physically, High 7-C+, likely Low 7-B+ with equipment
Musashi	Base	7-C	At least Low 7-B+, likely Higher at full power
Musashi	Full power	7-C, possibly higher	---get rid of it---
Kaku	Old	7-C with complete mastery over Shaori/Xiao-Lee.	At least Low 7-B+, likely Higher with complete mastery over Shaori/Xiao-Lee
Retsu	Son of Ogre	8-B	High 7-C+
Retsu	Baki dou	Low 7-C	At least High 7-C+, likely Higher
Ron Shobun	-	Low 7-C	High 7-C+
Guevara	-	At least Low 7-C, possibly 7-C	High 7-C+
Katsumi	Son of ogre	8-B, 7-C with Hitless Blow	High 7-C+, Low 7-B+ with Hitless Blow
Katsumi	Baki dou II	Nothing	At least High 7-C+, likely Higher, Higher with Retsu spirit, Low 7-B+ with Hitless Blow
Doppo	Prime	Low 7-C	High 7-C+
Iwao Muneuchi	-	At most 8-A, possibly Low 7-C	At most High 7-C+
Sukune	-	7-C	At least Low 7-B+, likely Higher
Shibukawa	-	9-A, up to 7-C with Aiki	9-A, up to Low 7-B+ with Aiki

Okay, that should be it.

Well since Ovens is good with low 7-B+ all those who downscale become just base line low 7-B.

Also for the speed scaling I’ll bring it here so it becomes more simple for the rest of us. Then the rock crushing feat, and will be good

 

[Armorchompy]

yeah uh haha about that crushing feat haha


anyway can someone give me some official artwork of baki which i can use to clearly determine his hand size in comparison to his height?

 

[CuddleFox]

https://i.redd.it/kyzp4qbt83h31.png

@NotoriouSoda Okay, edited the table.

 

[Armorchompy]

I'd prefer a full-body pic, I can't use this one since I can't see his full height

 

[Amlad22]

I’ll try to see if there’s any feats that could be used for characters like SOO Katsumi and Retsu who defiantly should not scale to these other guys. Because that’s the biggest issue I see right now.

The second issue I see is that the gap between the god tiers and top tiers is also big enough to warrant a drop to High 7-C imo. Pickle one shot Jack but yet they’re in the same tier for instance, same goes for Musashi bifurcating Retsu with a single swing. Basically anyone who was Low 7-C before should be High 7-C now to properly address the massive gap between top tiers and god tiers.

 

[NotoriouSoda]

yeah uh haha about that crushing feat haha


anyway can someone give me some official artwork of baki which i can use to clearly determine his hand size in comparison to his height?

Go to his gallery and you can find him standing up, it’s from the anime but I believe it still works lol

 

[Sir_Ovens]

The second issue I see is that the gap between the god tiers and top tiers is also big enough to warrant a drop to High 7-C imo. Pickle one shot Jack but yet they’re in the same tier for instance, same goes for Musashi bifurcating Retsu with a single swing. Basically anyone who was Low 7-C before should be High 7-C now to properly address the massive gap between top tiers and god tiers.

That's not how backscaling works. Making them High 7-C would be entirely arbitrary since we have no determinable measurement for the gap between their AP. You either make them Low 7-B, or drop the God tiers to Low 7-B and make them High 7-C+.

 

[Armorchompy]

Go to his gallery and you can find him standing up, it’s from the anime but I believe it still works lol

does the Baki Dou portrait work? that one works best for me

 

[NotoriouSoda]

does the Baki Dou portrait work? that one works best for me

Ye G thank one works well, also thanks for helping us out.

then watch the feat come to class 1 Imao

 

[Armorchompy]

last thing i need is baki's weight, if there's any data on that

 

[NotoriouSoda]

213lbs, damn mf is heavy Imao

 

[Armorchompy]

Here it is, I was wrong and didn't need that pic at all lol

 

[NotoriouSoda]

Here it is, I was wrong and didn't need that pic at all lol

CLASS K Armor you ******* saint

 

[EliminatorVenom]

Armor is a beast.

I do agree that the jump of 9-A to Low 7-B is really massive and I feel like there should be something in-between... But alas, until further evidence is brought, this is pretty much it.

I plan to re-read Baki someday, and then I might bring some interesting bits that I remember seeing but may be lacking context.

There was that one feat that the giant elephant Yujiro utterly stomped was completely immune to even anti-aircraft projectiles. If we took a calc that was made here that someone completely impervious to anti-materiel rifle bullets was 8-B... It was really old though, and no one'd scale that didn't already scale to something higher.

I really liked this thread, it was nice seeing so many people interested in this!

 

[Armorchompy]

There was that one feat that the giant elephant Yujiro utterly stomped was completely immune to even anti-aircraft projectiles. If we took a calc that was made here that someone completely impervious to anti-materiel rifle bullets was 8-B... It was really old though, and no one'd scale that didn't already scale to something higher.

That calculation can't really be used, it has some odd assumptions and was done just for fun iirc

 

[EliminatorVenom]

Yeah, thought so.

In any case, I think this can be concluded.

 

[Amlad22]

I guess Venom you’re right, as of now we don’t have anything else to go off of.

Also, the more I think about it, the class K lifting strength upgrade seems to be a clear outlier. It’s higher than Nomi’s feat which is stated multiple times to be something nobody in the verse aside from maybe Yujiro could replicate. And now all of a sudden we’re saying Base Baki can do more? Unless Nomi’s feat was done wrong and it’s higher than Class 100, I believe we shouldn’t use this class K feat to scale the verse’s top and god tiers.