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Bakasta vs the stick swinger

SatellaTheWoE said:
Alright so my personal conclusion for now is that reid is very easily able to handle Astas Zettan via skill alone and manàges to cut him.
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I disagree that Reid can handle Asta's Zetten via skill. Zetten would speed blitz in this case or Asta instantly transforms and evades.
 
Zabazab said:
No, the range of his strikes is just tens of kilometres. He does not ignore distance otherwise that would be infinite speed.
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Then the further the attack from Reids the more time Asta has to perfom actions. He only needs to transform and evade, or perform Zetten depending on the distance.

At 3m away Asta just Zettens and blitzes. At 4km, Asta instantly transforms dodges his attack and Zettens him away.


Zabazab said:
He'd see white vectors indicating the trajectory of the attack. If it's too large of an attack to be blocked then he cuts through it. And blocking an attack with the sword would not lead to being disarmed as he is able to harmlessly transfer force out of his body through the soles of his feet.
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The attack is too fast for him to perceive those white lines at 3m range. It might be possible km away but you have to prove he can cut through Anti Magic. Besides even if he could, Asta would just come closer and Zetten him away. If the initial attack is blocked then you have to prove that Reid can transfer the force of attacks many times stronger than him harmlessly through the soles of his feet.

Zabazab said:
Reid's hax is based in space, time, and concepts. Asta resists space and time hax, so if you disagree that Reid can conceptually destroy what he cuts (as stated in the Novel) then Reid has no way to harm Asta and it becomes a stomp.
Click to expand...

This is not about Asta's resistance, this is about Reid's ability to cut things. Reid is up against a supernatural energy that is largely unknown to both Black Clover verse and Re: Zero aside from the fact that it is the enemy of magic. Simply put, A Zetten is any regular magic attack delivered at enhanced speeds and strength. Asta was able to do this with Anti Magic and now all of his attacks, including ranged ones, can be amped with Zetten. So an Anti Magic ranged slash is up against Reid here.

I am aware that Reid can cut things that can not be cut, like light, black holes, or space time, but you have to prove that Reid is capable of cutting Anti Magic energy. Its not even hax-based; it's skill-based, so his greatest enemy here will be NLF.
 
Even if we take Ram's bullshit feat non-literally, and assume it's a form of precog, it's still a feat that shows being fast enough to normally blitz doesn't seem to be enough to hit those with far greater combat skill.

Ram did that while she had zero mana to boost her stats beyond human level, but even if she had her horn as an adult and thus became the Oni God, capable of absorbing an utilising as much mana as she needs once more- who is at least the 5th strongest character in the verse- Reid would still easily behead her according to WoG.

Reid is so far beyond everyone else in skill that the only characters he can't just instantly behead are Reinhard (the #1 in the whole verse), Volcanica (who he can still beat according to lore) and Satella (who is immortal).

As well as this, Swordsmen grow stronger when faced with a stronger opponent and then grow even stronger and faster again when faced with death. Wilhelm- who was merely planting a single foot on the first step on the stairway to Reid's heavenly skill- was able to massively boost his speed from superspeed, to hyperspeed, to the speed of god, to transcending the concept of steel, in order to counter a certain-death attack from multiple directions.

Arnoldstone18 said:
If the initial attack is blocked then you have to prove that Reid can transfer the force of attacks many times stronger than him harmlessly through the soles of his feet.
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We don't really see him fight people stronger than him so no, there's no example of him transfering the force of an attack with greater ap. All there is are statements that "blunt force attacks" eg. punches, kicks, clubs, are useless against him. But we do know that the Sword at least is indestructable even in the face of ridiculous dura neg hax.

Arnoldstone18 said:
I am aware that Reid can cut things that can not be cut, like light, black holes, or space time, but you have to prove that Reid is capable of cutting Anti Magic energy. Its not even hax-based; it's skill-based, so his greatest enemy here will be NLF.
Click to expand...
There is no explicit "anti-magic energy" ofc in Re:Zero, but there is two things that might be similar:

First, Authorities- abilities which interfere with the world's concepts and are born from Witch Factors- are described as being the antithesis or backwards-compatible to the Od Laguna- the very source of all Mana, Magic, Divine Blessings, Spirits, Souls, and the World itself. Due to the antithetical nature of Authorities, they cancel out and override things like Divine Blessings and Magic, so no magic or Divine Protection can defend against or bypass the power of Authorities.

Reid can cut these Authorities easily as seen with Cor Leonis and stated with Regulus' temporal invincibility.

Second is Beatrice's anti-magic barrier E.M.T which nullifies the use of mana or magic within its range. This ability however is itself an application of magic and thus probably not close enough to the nature of BC's antimagic energy. Reid can cut this as well as cutting magic is a simple task for him.

Reid's philosophy of swordsmanship:
“Hah? Don’t be makin’ me laugh, ya prick. Swingin’ at the best angle, with the best speed, with the best feelin’, in the best way―― Be chopsticks or whatever, there’s nothin’ it can’t cut.”
Click to expand...
“The hell, it’s just air. Somethin’ like air’s everywhere, as if it’d stop me.”

With just a single swing of his chopsticks, Reid broke through that immense magic with extreme easiness.

A carefree attitude as if, quite literally, slashing through air―― no, for him, it truly was exactly that. He did not have the nature of taking roundabouts around something which he was capable of doing and then boasting about it.

He had slashed the air, so that was his explanation. That was all there was to it.
Click to expand...
 
Arnoldstone18 said:
This is not about Asta's resistance, this is about Reid's ability to cut things. Reid is up against a supernatural energy that is largely unknown to both Black Clover verse and Re: Zero aside from the fact that it is the enemy of magic. Simply put, A Zetten is any regular magic attack delivered at enhanced speeds and strength. Asta was able to do this with Anti Magic and now all of his attacks, including ranged ones, can be amped with Zetten. So an Anti Magic ranged slash is up against Reid here.

I am aware that Reid can cut things that can not be cut, like light, black holes, or space time, but you have to prove that Reid is capable of cutting Anti Magic energy. Its not even hax-based; it's skill-based, so his greatest enemy here will be NLF.
Click to expand...
What is the composition of anti-magic energy?
 
Arnoldstone18 said:
I have no problem with Reid being superior to Asta skill wise. I do have a problem with the concept cutting stuff being used on Asta because someone brought to my attention that his opponents have survived a cut from Reid but I won’t go into that rabbit hole rn.

Asta’s presence (probably by elevating fight or flight response idk) causes those with battle instincts to rush towards him for an attack. Reid in character goes for melee attacks with his weapon so this is what is most likely going to happen. Reid’s movement speed is lower than his combat speed, and Asta has a type of precognition that is dissimilar to skill based precog in Re:Zero according to @Tatsumi504 who is very knowledgeable on both. so Asta will easily anticipate Reid going in for an attack.

Asta will then deploy Zetten in such a way that Reid cannot dodge. Reid’s skill based precog is probably useless against those who are completely stationary (unless proven the white lines that show up come from stationary targets) but regardless the attack will be too fast to aim dodge.
Click to expand...
ReZero's precog is not skill based. Otherwise you wouldn't get things like Grimm detecting something is wrong at the Astrea manor from all the way across the capitol.
 
Not exactly, that is unique to Grimm, he has this 6th sense that alerts him to danger, but in addition due to being around skilled people like Carol and Wilhelm, he learned how to predict his opponents future attacks.
 
I would also note Sword Saints have 2 kinds of precog, one where they can predict what you are going to do just from the stance you take, from where your eyes are trained, and from the very air that hangs above you, i would say this is standard stuff we have seen from people like Wilhelm, though you could argue Theresia's precog>Wilhelm, due to a Sword Saint's nature of being impossible to ever match.

The other one is seeing, reading, and feeling the paths of hostility raining down on them, basically if you are hostile to them, they will know what exactly you're going to do just based on that.
 
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Celestial_Pegasus said:
I would also note Sword Saints have 2 kinds of precog, one where they can predict what you are going to do just from the stance you take, from where your eyes are trained, and from the very air that hangs above you, i would say this is standard stuff we have seen from people like Wilhelm, though you could argue Theresia's precog>Wilhelm, due to a Sword Saint's nature of being impossible to ever match.

The other one is seeing, reading, and feeling the paths of hostility raining down on them, basically if you are hostile to them, they will know what exactly you're going to do just based on that.
Click to expand...
This is literally Ki from Black Clover

The first is seeing the movement of the enemy and enviroment even before they do anything (and if you add mana zone then is even better, but Asta don´t have it)

And the second is Ki, reading the intent and feelings of the enemy, with Ki you can even know if someone is lying, only antifeat is Yami being dumb as a brick and not being able to read love intent but this is more a gag than anything
 
Greatsage13th said:
What is the composition of anti-magic energy?
Click to expand...
As the name suggest: It's just an energy that negates magic born from negative thoughts, other than that there is really nothing so special and uniqueness about it that would make someone say "You would need a proof that this dude can interact with this kind of energy too" Imo the only way Asta could counter Reid ability to cut anything is by using his ability to "I choose what i wants to cut" it's an ability that only attack what it wants to cut, meaning anything n everything besides it's target is getting completely ignore.
 
Worthless said:
As the name suggest: It's just an energy that negates magic born from negative thoughts, other than that there is really nothing so special and uniqueness about it that would make someone say "You would need a proof that this dude can interact with this kind of energy too" Imo the only way Asta could counter Reid ability to cut anything is by using his ability to "I choose what i wants to cut" it's an ability that only attack what it wants to cut, meaning anything n everything besides it's target is getting completely ignore.
Click to expand...
Agreed.
 
Zabazab said:
Even if we take Ram's bullshit feat non-literally, and assume it's a form of precog, it's still a feat that shows being fast enough to normally blitz doesn't seem to be enough to hit those with far greater combat skill.
Click to expand...

But how do we know it would normally blitz her? All we know is that she’s just slower by an unknown degree and she merely used her intuition to keep up. There’s no evidence she shouldve been blitzed.


Zabazab said:
Ram did that while she had zero mana to boost her stats beyond human level, but even if she had her horn as an adult and thus became the Oni God, capable of absorbing an utilising as much mana as she needs once more- who is at least the 5th strongest character in the verse- Reid would still easily behead her according to WoG.
Click to expand...

Humans can display superhuman characteristics in the verse still. So it’s no surprise she could physically avoid all of them despite their speed


Zabazab said:
Reid is so far beyond everyone else in skill that the only characters he can't just instantly behead are Reinhard (the #1 in the whole verse), Volcanica (who he can still beat according to lore) and Satella (who is immortal).

As well as this, Swordsmen grow stronger when faced with a stronger opponent and then grow even stronger and faster again when faced with death. Wilhelm- who was merely planting a single foot on the first step on the stairway to Reid's heavenly skill- was able to massively boost his speed from superspeed, to hyperspeed, to the speed of god, to transcending the concept of steel, in order to counter a certain-death attack from multiple directions.
Click to expand...

Still these things should not let someone dodge something they can’t physically dodge. That’s impossible.
Zabazab said:
As well as this, Swordsmen grow stronger when faced with a stronger opponent and then grow even stronger and faster again when faced with death. Wilhelm- who was merely planting a single foot on the first step on the stairway to Reid's heavenly skill- was able to massively boost his speed from superspeed, to hyperspeed, to the speed of god, to transcending the concept of steel, in order to counter a certain-death attack from multiple directions.
Click to expand...

Wtf are these skill based stat amps??? Our standards don’t allow unknown amps to trump actual mult
 
Worthless said:
As the name suggest: It's just an energy that negates magic born from negative thoughts, other than that there is really nothing so special and uniqueness about it that would make someone say "You would need a proof that this dude can interact with this kind of energy too" Imo the only way Asta could counter Reid ability to cut anything is by using his ability to "I choose what i wants to cut" it's an ability that only attack what it wants to cut, meaning anything n everything besides it's target is getting completely ignore.
Click to expand...

You are aware that you can’t generalize Anti Magic energy to all types of energy based attacks right? That’s an Association Fallacy.

You are basically promoting NLF this way, and I am definitely not going to fight NLF with NLF with that statement.
 
Worthless said:
As the name suggest: It's just an energy that negates magic born from negative thoughts, other than that there is really nothing so special and uniqueness about it that would make someone say "You would need a proof that this dude can interact with this kind of energy too" Imo the only way Asta could counter Reid ability to cut anything is by using his ability to "I choose what i wants to cut" it's an ability that only attack what it wants to cut, meaning anything n everything besides it's target is getting completely ignore.
Click to expand...
That's complety NFL trought.
 
Arnoldstone18 said:
Humans can display superhuman characteristics in the verse still. So it’s no surprise she could physically avoid all of them despite their speed
Click to expand...
They do that because of a mana though, which she was completely out of. It's not like humans just randomly display superhuman stats just because. It's not Vinland Saga.
 
The text does both explicitly state that Ram became "as frail as her form suggested" i.e a regular 18 year old girl, while Garfiel explicitly surpasses the speed of sound in the text.
 
VortechsTG said:
They do that because of a mana though, which she was completely out of. It's not like humans just randomly display superhuman stats just because. It's not Vinland Saga.
Click to expand...
So Ram should't really be able to overcame the speed disvantage of 130x trought skill, that's pshycally Impossible.
 
Ram can do it because she is a waifu, and her sister is even more waifu

And because Elsa is not here, oh boy if Elsa was here doing his waifu things
 
Kazuma_kuwabara said:
Transformations are between x2 and x4 based on "several times" or "many times" bullshit that it depends of what do you want to accept
Click to expand...

Transformations are different they don’t have a direct multiplier attached to them. They often just scale to those he fights or ally he keeps up with. After devil bargain mode it became extremely high to keep up with someone wayyy faster than him and now with devil Union…. It’s just too high for Reid.

Black Asta (a fraction of Liebe’s power)= scales to Yuno. >2x or 3x like you said. But this is Devil Bargain Mode Black Mode right? That kept up with Dante who was getting way too fast. Yeah uh… Asta was able to keep up with Yami who could keep up with 80% Dante and became 80x faster than his base form that got blitzed by base form Dante. In land of the sun Asta looks like he has an even better Black Mode than before.

Devil Union (all of his power) = enough to keep up with Lucius who has Lucifero’s full power. A casual half powered Lucifero could blitz black mode. And even after Lucifero doubled his speed to match Zora, he still wasn’t using half of his power, so now Lucius has all of his power and Asta could keep up.

Yeah it’s just too high for Reid unless you start this match with Asta in his highest transformation so speed can be equalized
 
Zabazab said:
The text does both explicitly state that Ram became "as frail as her form suggested" i.e a regular 18 year old girl, while Garfiel explicitly surpasses the speed of sound in the text.
Click to expand...

If you’re insisting then it’s just PIS cuz wtf? I can try to ask mods to come here if you want
 
I'm not that bothered by it, it doesn't need to be taken as literally just being able to trump 130x speed difference via skill.

I just disagree with your suggestion that mana-less Ram should or could be scaled to Garfiel, it completely contradicts the point of the scene.
 
okay then

so can we deem this as a mismatch (hax vs speed) or? Keep going?
 
VortechsTG said:
Something being physically impossible does not mean it's an outlier. Otherwise literally every example of a character being faster than light would be on that page.
Click to expand...

But our site assumes it is possible so this point you’re making doesn’t matter.

You can make a crt to make us assume that a character can dodge an object that it can’t even perceive.
 
VortechsTG said:
Something being physically impossible does not mean it's an outlier. Otherwise literally every example of a character being faster than light would be on that page.
Click to expand...
You example have nothing to do with a outlier.
One is Impossible for real life stardard,, the other is Impossible to this site stardard.
 
Anyway, I was kinda on the fence for a bit but once the size of the difference between Ram and Garfiel was pointed out that definitely tipped the scale. My vote is on Reid.
 
I mean there are several examples in fiction of characters dodging things they shouldn't be able to percieve, but that's neither here nor there.

This thread seems to have came to the decision that this is a mismatch for several reasons, and further discussion on other topics should be for more appropriate threads.
 
Zabazab said:
I mean there are several examples in fiction of characters dodging things they shouldn't be able to percieve
Click to expand...
This example also don't work, because of the site stardards

Zabazab said:
but that's neither here nor there.

This thread seems to have came to the decision that this is a mismatch for several reasons, and further discussion on other topics should be for more appropriate threads.
Click to expand...
But you the one that being out that feat, and techinically this is still on topic, since we are discussing skill. But nevermind this.

That's true, Satella just need to change Asta Key, and make him start with his transformation so he can't gain a speed amp, and this match is okay again.
 
Zabazab said:
I mean there are several examples in fiction of characters dodging things they shouldn't be able to percieve, but that's neither here nor there.
Click to expand...

And how many times have we treated them as Accelerated Development? Speed Amp? Outlier? You can literally ask any mod to see if this is acceptable.

For intuition to even work perception is required then at least a train of thought. So that already makes the argument that it should’ve blitzed Ram impossible to believe.
 
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