Azur Lane Canon Problem: Gameplay, Scaling, Visual Reference, etc

[Jamesthetaker]

Summary:​

Hello there, this is a revision of Azur Lane current problems about canon and scaling. Me and Vietthai96 have attempted to solve this before but two of us haven't getting nowhere so i has decided to make a CRT about this. Before anything else i would like to introduce you to some basic terminology of the verse:

Terminology:​

• Shipgirls are the names given to beings who is humanoid manifestation of ship that based on our real-life naval warship participated in World War I & II, such as battleship, cruiser, submarine, destroyer.
• Pawn or mass-produced ships are the cannon fodder of the game, they are clone of real life WW2 ships and look exactly look them.
• The Sirens are a mysterious race of beings that are currently the primary antagonist faction in the game. They possess highly advanced technology which used to mass producing Pawn or manipulating reality.

Canon Problem:​

Currently the problem for Azur Lane is how we treated canon work. This video supposedly shown us the gameplay and the Pawn in right side got destroyed completely, this would give the girls 8-A rating based on this and this or higher result. However this contradict with the official trailer, where in the beginning we seen that those ships got fragmented instead, then skip to 1:00 we get to see that the Pawn doesn't get destroyed immediately. Ignore the 1:15 part because it was done via a superweapon that don't scale to anybody.

It's obviously that gameplay and trailer contradict each other, now i would present Vietthat96 and my arguments on this matter and let you decided which sound more reasonable:

Vietthai96's Argument:​

• There is no solid scene or conversation claim that shipgirl can destroy WW2 ships completely. Nearly 90% of the feat is "gameplay mechanic visual", those visual have no solid statement that suggest fragmentation or vaporization. Everything on their profile is just a big assumption from little information.
• The feat in the trailer above shown that not even shipgirl can cut clean through a Pawn and it still there mostly intact.
• The Pawn are mass-production or clone which we assume them to comparable as their real-life counterpart, but they are weaker than shipgirls who is the materialization of actual ship. This create a contradiction because how can Pawn being weaker if they are based on real life ship similar to ship girl.
• The only explantion is that the Pawn should have a Unknown rating because we cannot make an assumption about their strength due to contradiction.
• Therefore, he suggest giving the ship girl: "Large Building level, possibly Multi-City Block level (While shipgirl can did significant damage to the Pawn which based on real life warship, it's unknown if they can destroy them completely or is those Pawn in question are comparable to actual ship)"

Jamesthetaker's Argument:​

• While it is true that gameplay visual are different from animation video, however we do seen the Pawn fragments in the beginning of trailer, this implied that shipgirl can at least did that much of damage to them. This could be interpreted in gameplay as the Pawn pieces were too small to see or the developer just don't add them. It should be noticed that the game itself is the primary source of everything so we should take it to consider first.
• The entire fight in trailer were like 30s second long and we barely seen how it gone out. The ship girl only shown a fraction of their feat so we cannot assume that were all their capable of. It actually would justify their AP better because a single sword slash can cut through entire Pawn which is better than any normal warship could do.
• The Pawn being much weaker than shipgirl can be explained as the latter are created with high advanced technology along with the Wisdom Cube giving them a "collective body" to develop and strengthen themselves, it would be obvious for them to be stronger than the ship they based on. The Pawn being mass production doesn't make them any weaker than the real life ships because they were created to look similar and from the same material.
• Despite being weaker than shipgirl, a large number of Pawns still pose dangerous threat and their weapons can slightly damage them. This isn't the first game where common enemies have able to done so like Hilichurls in GS and more, not to mention that there is also special Pawns who can evenly matched shipgirl but we won't talk about them for now.
• My suggestion for their tier would be: "Small Town level (Shipgirl can easily destroy the Pawn which based on real life ships such as Cruiser, Destroyer, Battleship, Submarine)"

Conclusion:​

To sum up, this thread is about "gameplay contradicting animation video" which i have present two solutions above. Feel free to choose one and give your verdict in the comment, if you have anything to ask just say it and i will answer you:

• Vietthai96's solution: "High 8-C, possibly 8-A (While shipgirl can did significant damage to the Pawn which based on real life warship, it's unknown if they can destroy them completely or is those Pawn in question are comparable to actual ship)"
• Jamesthetaker's solution: "Low 7-C (Shipgirl can easily destroy the Pawn which based on real life ships such as Cruiser, Destroyer, Battleship, Submarine)"

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Honestly i dunno about this since i'm just a casual, so from time on i would take myself on neutral side until someone bring an arguments here

Should we contacting the staff to come here?

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

I haven't finished Azur Lane Crosswave yet so I can't really comment about this to see if the game can somehow support one or the other.

IMO I'm leaning towards the idea that pawns are based on real-life ships especially since it wouldn't make sense for sirens to somehow use a weaker variation of an old battleship and such when they are laughably superior to it technology-wise.

does the anime release support any of the arguments in any way?

 

[Antvasima]

@Dino_Ranger_Black @Gemmysaur @JustSomeWeirdo @LordGriffin1000 @Theglassman12 @Crabwhale @Eficiente @GyroNutz @DarkGrath @The_Wright_Way @Moritzva @Everything12 @Duedate8898 @Planck69 @KingTempest

Would any of you be willing to help evaluate this please?

 

[KingTempest]

Neutral as of now since idk anything about this verse, but if the official trailer and the gameplay contradict each other, the one that's more canon should be used imo

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

 

[Planck69]

Unless there's additional lore then I'd say that the gameplay should take precedent over the trailer. Granted I know zero about this verse.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the evaluation.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

I haven't finished Azur Lane Crosswave yet so I can't really comment about this to see if the game can somehow support one or the other.

IMO I'm leaning towards the idea that pawns are based on real-life ships especially since it wouldn't make sense for sirens to somehow use a weaker variation of an old battleship and such when they are laughably superior to it technology-wise.

does the anime release support any of the arguments in any way?

The 2019 anime was demaned as non-canon due to the differences in storyline, character personality, abilities. Some of the feats is consistent with the game but it doesn't really affected their AP. While the 2020 anime doesn't really have much feats to begin with.

 

[Vietthai96]

Also Azur Lane Crosswave is more like a promotional material, and its storyline also completely different from the backstory at the start to the end game, so if we want 2019 Anime and Crosswave we need to make other profile for them as we can't scale them to original mobile game, other relevant material that can be considered as "canon" to mobile game are Slow Ahead anime and manga, but they are slice of life series without any relevant informations for a vs battle site. There are also some other manga series like Anthology or Queen's Order, but they are not canon at all.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Bump.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Guess we're left with the Trailer or the Mobile Game itself

Leaning more on the Mobile Game itself then and would agree with jamesthetaker's argument.

 

[Antvasima]

What are the conclusions here so far?

 

[Antvasima]

I am also inclined to accept consistent gameplay over a brief trailer btw.

 

[Vietthai96]

I am also inclined to accept consistent gameplay over a brief trailer btw.

Problem is gameplay thing is a big assumption on itself, it have no feat or statement shipgirl could totally vaporize mass-production ship which supported by official short animation video, not only that but also the rating was solely based on the assumption that mass-production ship should have the same rating as real life WW2 strongest warship (which is either Iowa or Yamato class) and shipgirl should be superior to that rating. Because mist of the rating was assumption from the start that why i proposed the the Possibly rating (they possibly have that rating but not enough solid evidence)

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That makes sense.

 

[Zencha9]

Neutral as of right now

 

[First_Witch]

Trailers are to be discarded regardless of series. They are noncanon until proofen otherwise.

Problem is gameplay thing is a big assumption on itself, it have no feat or statement shipgirl could totally vaporize mass-production ship which supported by official short animation video, not only that but also the rating was solely based on the assumption that mass-production ship should have the same rating as real life WW2 strongest warship (which is either Iowa or Yamato class) and shipgirl should be superior to that rating. Because mist of the rating was assumption from the start that why i proposed the the Possibly rating (they possibly have that rating but not enough solid evidence)

^This here is a far bigger point. Is this true? Is there any reason why we assume Yamato class, which is one of the biggest warships ever build, for pawns? And why is vaporization assumed? Shipgirls dont have any weaponry that would even cause vaporization in the first place. Any lore reasons?

 

[Antvasima]

Trailers are to be discarded regardless of series. They are noncanon until proofen otherwise.

I am not sure about our standards regarding this, but you are likely right. Sorry about not being of much help here.

 

[First_Witch]

It is only logical. Trailes are promotional material used to hype up whatever they are promoting. Its the same logic with things like anime openings.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. Agreed.

 

[Vietthai96]

Trailers are to be discarded regardless of series. They are noncanon until proofen otherwise.

^This here is a far bigger point. Is this true? Is there any reason why we assume Yamato class, which is one of the biggest warships ever build, for pawns? And why is vaporization assumed? Shipgirls dont have any weaponry that would even cause vaporization in the first place. Any lore reasons?

1. The feat are legit though, but again i can see your point
2. Now this could be long


The video above is a gameplay example for Azur Lane, you could see the assumption of vaporization come from the thing that the stage have visual of ship blow-up completely, and those a mass-production ship, which vastly inferior to shipgirl like the Terminology section from the OP, you could see a bunch of event from there: https://azurlane.koumakan.jp/Category:Major_Event_Memories, and while some characters will stated how easy to deal with clone, pawn, or mass-production ship nothing claim they can vaporize them, even in-game cut-scene/screenshot don't show any visual of vaporization. And the next assumption is that those clone have the same rating as their real-life counterpart as you could see in Azur Lane (Verse)'s profiles, this is the example. So the part about scaling to strongest WW2 warship is because recently a new character appeared in game, she is New Jersey, and we now NJ is belong to Iowa-class battleship; so Jame decide to upgrade the shipgirls rating with his chain of thought is: because NJ appear in the game -> there will be NJ mass-production or clone ship of her -> vaporize her grant this rating which is Small town level because in order to total destruction of Iowa-class ship or ship of similar require Low 7-C power because above i already said that we assume those mass production have the same rating as real-life WW2 warship. But the problem is, currently the game have no Iowa-class mass-production ship to assume, iirc at max currently they have heavy cruiser mass-production and Illustrious Aircraft Carrier-class clone.

 

[First_Witch]

Wait, i thought the ratings come from "vaporizing pawns". Since when is fighting against enemy shipgirls canon? Im really out of the loop with AL so if they were stated to be canon then nvm on that particular point. Because the last time i played it, they were simply treated as a way to pad the levels.

That aside, vaporization is a bold assumption if nothing within the story support it. Shipgirl weaponry is largely based around shells and torpedos, so i think fragmentation is more accurate.

 

[Vietthai96]

Wait, i thought the ratings come from "vaporizing pawns". Since when is fighting against enemy shipgirls canon? Im really out of the loop with AL so if they were stated to be canon then nvm on that particular point. Because the last time i played it, they were simply treated as a way to pad the levels.

That aside, vaporization is a bold assumption if nothing within the story support it. Shipgirl weaponry is largely based around shells and torpedos, so i think fragmentation is more accurate.

Pawn Siren ship have unknown rating, some assume that they must have higher durability because they are better tech ship, and fighting with Siren Elite like Omitter, Purifier,...can't scale cause despite the game stage visual show the chibi model exploded like any other mass-produce ship, according to story those Elite is always fine after the battle while ebing outnumbered by shipgirls, and according to their dialouge line they not even using full of their power either, and they just there for fun and experiment and flee after the battle to gather information

 

[First_Witch]

If thats true then yeah, vaporization is shaky at best. I think using the fragmentation value of battleships they represent to be more accurate then. To clarify, i dont think it is problematic to assume that Pawns are at least compareable to their real life counterpart, wasnt it the lore that Sirens pushed out humanity from the seas before Shipgirls were around?

 

[Vietthai96]

If thats true then yeah, vaporization is shaky at best. I think using the fragmentation value of battleships they represent to be more accurate then. To clarify, i dont think it is problematic to assume that Pawns are at least compareable to their real life counterpart, wasnt it the lore that Sirens pushed out humanity from the seas before Shipgirls were around?

Shipgirl never pushed back Siren, they want to play with human to see how they evolve to get the data for themselves so they could evolve to, the evidence is among many dialogue line, and the lore is still a mess though. So again the Pawn comparable to real-life counterpart is just assumption, we don't know their exact rating, and shipgirl yeah superior to them, but shipgirl could be just as strong as their real-life counter part and pawn is inferior to them thus lower rating that why i propose Possibly, it is not wrong to assume, but assume without enough solid evidence to get a solid rating is kinda overboard, let alone we have zero evidence. What i disagree is the Low 7-C rating, the game currently have no New Jersey clone or pawn, so assume shipgirl have that level is too bold.

 

[First_Witch]

Shipgirls being > Pawns dosnt have to mean that Shipgirls are more powerful than Pawns. Both are clearly a threat to each other. There are many factors, unrelated to firepower and durability that contribute to the far greater effectivness of Shipgirls, such as size, mobility and intellegence. I see no reason to discard Pawns being at least compareable to their reallife counterpart.

That aside, lets see what we can agree on until counterargumentation:

Shipgirls should not scale to a vaporization calc or anything similar, as that assumption is not supportet within the lore and story. I personally think a fragmentation calc of warships being destroyed is more accurate but im no expert to dictate that.

 

[Vietthai96]

Shipgirls being > Pawns dosnt have to mean that Shipgirls are more powerful than Pawns. Both are clearly a threat to each other. There are many factors, unrelated to firepower and durability that contribute to the far greater effectivness of Shipgirls, such as size, mobility and intellegence. I see no reason to discard Pawns being at least compareable to their reallife counterpart.

That aside, lets see what we can agree on until counterargumentation:

Shipgirls should not scale to a vaporization calc or anything similar, as that assumption is not supportet within the lore and story. I personally think a fragmentation calc of warships being destroyed is more accurate but im no expert to dictate that.

1. Well yes, about Pawn scale to the real-life counterpart, i don't discard it, but at the same time it have no evidence to support that why i propose possibly rating as they possibly scale to real-life.
2. Well yes, Pawn can overwhelming shipgirl by number and tactic, this game did have a good take on real life naval tactic back in WW2, they also did have Piercing Damage through Armor-Piercing Shell (AP Shell) which allow them to punch through tougher durability
Well already present my argument, let wait for Jame

On a side note, did you still play the game????

 

[First_Witch]

I used to play it, i think a year ago? I was the one who started the discussion thread, i stopped when the first Graf Zeppelin event hitted. Spend too much without getting her, got depressed and asked myself "If i cant have glorious german engeneering, why even play" and stopped.

 

[Vietthai96]

I used to play it, i think a year ago? I was the one who started the discussion thread, i stopped when the first Graf Zeppelin event hitted. Spend too much without getting her, got depressed and asked myself "If i cant have glorious german engeneering, why even play" and stopped.

Should have play though, the game is really good now. I am even more depressing when i miss Amagi at first 0.0

 

[First_Witch]

"If i cant have glorious german engeneering, why even bother playing".

And old account is gone, i aint gonna restart without my Bismarck

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

I used to play it, i think a year ago? I was the one who started the discussion thread, i stopped when the first Graf Zeppelin event hitted. Spend too much without getting her, got depressed and asked myself "If i cant have glorious german engeneering, why even play" and stopped.

Me with my "perfect balanced spending and being sane" be like" pathetic

 

[Antvasima]

So have you reached any conclusions here?

 

[First_Witch]

So have you reached any conclusions here?

Until James posts convincing counterarguments and scans that justifies vaporization, the profiles should be downgraded to whatever destroying warships of varying class yields. This is a temporal point, we should only move forward until James replied.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That seems fine to me.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Until James posts convincing counterarguments and scans that justifies vaporization, the profiles should be downgraded to whatever destroying warships of varying class yields. This is a temporal point, we should only move forward until James replied.

Thinking High 8-C, likely 8-A would be good one here

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

i thought 7-C was assuming simple destruction/fragmentation and not vaporization

going with High 8-C likely 8-A for now

 

[Vietthai96]

i thought 7-C was assuming simple destruction/fragmentation and not vaporization

going with High 8-C likely 8-A for now

Well the Low 7-C is the assumption that Shipgirls can vaporize Iowa-class battleship level of durability which i'm against it because currently there is no mass-production or clone of Iowa-class in game yet to assume that high, and also assume Siren pawn ship have the superior durability to Iowa-class battleship just because they are high tech is a bold claim and baseless assumption, not only that but alsk Jame want At least rating which mean Low 7-C is bare minimum. I fear that in the future when Yamato class come out he will also claim that now Yamato are in game so Siren Pawn and Shipgirls should be at least superior to real life Yamato-class battleship and increases the rating further 0.0

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Until James posts convincing counterarguments and scans that justifies vaporization, the profiles should be downgraded to whatever destroying warships of varying class yields. This is a temporal point, we should only move forward until James replied.

I don't support vaporization as i've said above. The most reasonable choice is fragmentation which based on calc of warships in their profiles.

It should be noted that warships of about the same type and period generally have performance equivalent to the one we currectly have. It doesn't necessary be Iowa-class though, similar type ships already exist in the game. Then there is no reason for the Siren to use only one type of ship for their purpose too.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

1. Well yes, about Pawn scale to the real-life counterpart, i don't discard it, but at the same time it have no evidence to support that why i propose possibly rating as they possibly scale to real-life.
2. Well yes, Pawn can overwhelming shipgirl by number and tactic, this game did have a good take on real life naval tactic back in WW2, they also did have Piercing Damage through Armor-Piercing Shell (AP Shell) which allow them to punch through tougher durability
Well already present my argument, let wait for Jame

On a side note, did you still play the game????

Just to remind that shipgirl can firing all guns simultaneously for a while and tanked the same amount of force back without sinking. Piercing damage isn't proper dura neg as they still carried an equal amount of energy and shipgirl can tank more than a normal ship could (torpedo, bomb, missiles, etc)