Azur Lane Canon Problem: Gameplay, Scaling, Visual Reference, etc

[Vietthai96]

Just to remind that shipgirl can firing all guns simultaneously for a while and tanked the same amount of force back without sinking. Piercing damage isn't proper dura neg as they still carried an equal amount of energy and shipgirl can tank more than a normal ship could (torpedo, bomb, missiles, etc)

i never said Piercing Damage is dura neg, but it allow the attack to punch through durability tougher than user AP, but at the same time doesn't mean they have higher AP general. And what, no they doesn't tank all, all the feat is vague, we can't know how much force they tank, except for the recent event with Soryuu META who obviously way stronger than normal shipgirls, it all is assumption

Edit: Busy for a while though, return later

 

[God243]

shipgirls should have FTL reactions because they dodge laser sirens. I might be wrong

 

[Antvasima]

Until James posts convincing counterarguments and scans that justifies vaporization, the profiles should be downgraded to whatever destroying warships of varying class yields. This is a temporal point, we should only move forward until James replied.

So about this...

 

[Vietthai96]

shipgirls should have FTL reactions because they dodge laser sirens. I might be wrong

No, i assume you get this idea from Howe vs Omitter battle, but the feat is: before Omitter can fire her suppose laser, her "gun" glow and charged it, so Howe and Valiant predict it and timing to dodge. King George V vs Bismarck also have a supposed laser, but KGV barely dodge them, and it is because before it fired the gun always glow.

But if you use gameplay stage to scale then no

 

[God243]

No, i assume you get this idea from Howe vs Omitter battle, but the feat is: before Omitter can fire her suppose laser, her "gun" glow and charged it, so Howe and Valiant predict it and timing to dodge. King George V vs Bismarck also have a supposed laser, but KGV barely dodge them, and it is because before it fired the gun always glow.

But if you use gameplay stage to scale then no

 

[Vietthai96]

Lol no, using this i can even scale normal shipgirls to META shipgirls which make no sense cause META vastly stronger

 

[Jamesthetaker]

So about this...

I have comment on this already.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

i never said Piercing Damage is dura neg, but it allow the attack to punch through durability tougher than user AP, but at the same time doesn't mean they have higher AP general. And what, no they doesn't tank all, all the feat is vague, we can't know how much force they tank, except for the recent event with Soryuu META who obviously way stronger than normal shipgirls, it all is assumption

Edit: Busy for a while though, return later

By that logic, a 9-A AP shell can damage Low 7-C ship with ease. Mind you that real ship need to fire all their guns simultaneously to reach 8-A amount of force to tear through the armor. Whereas ship girl can tanked a barrage of shell many times without sinking and this is a common feat among them.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

wouldn't 8-C up to 8-A likely low 7-C been better since
8-C is assuming their base potency from their turrets separately with 8-A or low 7-C when fired all at the same time?

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Remember that most ship girl have the ability to release a barrage of shell/bomb/torpedo at the same time. It wouldn't make sense if they somehow tanked that amount of force without sinking or die. So their strength and durability should scale to each other.

 

[Vietthai96]

By that logic, a 9-A AP shell can damage Low 7-C ship with ease. Mind you that real ship need to fire all their guns simultaneously to reach 8-A amount of force to tear through the armor. Whereas ship girl can tanked a barrage of shell many times without sinking and this is a common feat among them.

Remember that most ship girl have the ability to release a barrage of shell/bomb/torpedo at the same time. It wouldn't make sense if they somehow tanked that amount of force without sinking or die. So their strength and durability should scale to each other.

That is gameplay, they are not sinking because of HP bar, in cutscene and dialogue they goes out of their way to dodge stuff, not tank

 

[Antvasima]

So what are the conclusions here so far?

 

[Vietthai96]

So what are the conclusions here so far?

No conclusion yet, i'm already counter Jame's newest argument, so i'm waiting for him to make another argument to counter my point

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

That is gameplay, they are not sinking because of HP bar, in cutscene and dialogue they goes out of their way to dodge stuff, not tank

Because there is a clear distance of how gameplay and cutscene/dialogue are treated and sometime both goes together. Assuming that ship girl have only dodge every barrage of shell and bombardment being thrown at them without tanking it at least once is nearly impossible to happened.

I would said the same thing if the context ever implied that ship girl are glass cannon and cannot tanked that much of damage yet we have seen it in gameplay and nothing ever contradict it.

 

[Vietthai96]

Because there is a clear distance of how gameplay and cutscene/dialogue are treated and sometime both goes together. Assuming that ship girl have only dodge every barrage of shell and bombardment being thrown at them without tanking it at least once is nearly impossible to happened.

I would said the same thing if the context ever implied that ship girl are glass cannon and cannot tanked that much of damage yet we have seen it in gameplay and nothing ever contradict it.

No, using gameplay like that to claim that they tank all is a bad argument, cutscene/dialogue never claim that they tank all that shit, because they never show that shipgirl or siren in general can throw out danmaku projectile. Can you even post 1 scan that prove siren or shipgirl can unleashed bullet hell aside from gameplay mechanic??? and can you even post 1 scan prove that shipgirl tank all the shot????. I didn't even implied Shipgirls are glass canon, atleast their rigging can tank the damage according to cutscene/dialogue, but again Gameplay have HP bar mechanic what do you want to imply again, scale HP bar to character and say that they can tank everything without sinking????

 

[Jamesthetaker]

May i ask you back: Can you prove that everything is gameplay mechanic even though it never contradict what happened in the story or anything else? Given that this happened across media from 2019 anime to Crosswave, despite being non-canon, they still followed the mobile game material noneless. What evidence does you have to prove Azur Lane gameplay are game mechanic in general?

 

[Vietthai96]

May i ask you back: Can you prove that everything is gameplay mechanic even though it never contradict what happened in the story or anything else? Given that this happened across media from 2019 anime to Crosswave, despite being non-canon, they still followed the mobile game material noneless. What evidence does you have to prove Azur Lane gameplay are game mechanic in general?

Then why we don't scale everything to gameplay and all shipgirl have equal rating, given that even pawn ship which said to be inferior to shipgirl could still "deal" damage to them?? Or even sinking them because of game level mechanic, damage mechanic, etc.........just because other media like Crosswave and Anime being deemed non-canon then we can use that excuse to scale everything based on gameplay mechanic for feat???? That is literally bad argument

 

[Antvasima]

Have you reached any agreements here yet?

@First_Witch

What do you think?

 

[Vietthai96]

Have you reached any agreements here yet?

@First_Witch

What do you think?

I think it time for staff evaluation though, it starting to turn circular

 

[Antvasima]

@Dino_Ranger_Black @Gemmysaur @JustSomeWeirdo @LordGriffin1000 @Theglassman12 @Crabwhale @Eficiente @GyroNutz @DarkGrath @The_Wright_Way @Moritzva @Firestorm808 @DemonGodMitchAubin @Everything12 @Duedate8898 @Planck69 @KingTempest

Would any of you be willing to help out with evaluating this please?

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I'll try to look over this later today.

 

[First_Witch]

Gameplay animations should never be used as primary feats. You can get whacky assumptions through them. For example. In Granblue Fantasy, if you beat a Boss, their sprite elaboratly fades out of existance. We dont assume that they fade out of existance, because that is not supportet within the story. In fact, Vietthai mentioned a clear contradiction of Gameplay and Animation.

can't scale cause despite the game stage visual show the chibi model exploded like any other mass-produce ship, according to story those Elite is always fine after the battle

In fact, consider this: Coudnt you just as much argue that those Pawns just sunk after being destroyed? The gameplay animation is way to ambigous to be useable. On top of that, no other medium depicts Pawns as fully destroyed either. Yes, im aware that they are all non-canon, but it is still worth pondering over, why neither the trailers nor the anime adaption allign with what is assumed here.

As it stands, im against scaling Shipgirls to the values of completly destroyed ships either.

 

[Antvasima]

First Witch seems to make sense to me.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I've looked over the OP and have read the bulk of the comments and I'm gonna agree with Fire Witch and Vietthai96. Gameplay visuals/mechanics aren't always the best things to use and while the trailer was short it gave us some depiction of their battles and we see the parts of the ship still remain.

At most I'd agree to a "possible" rating for the total destruction of said ships. I can't say much else given my lack of knowledge on the verse.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Just to clear up the confusion: I have NEVER agree with gameplay animation being vaporisation, in fact i have try to give an explanation over the Pawn "death" can be interfered as the pieces were sunk instead of destroyed.

One more thing is that actual warship can reach 8-A via firing their guns at same time which ship girl can did so. However, ship girl can easily tanked those barrage without sinking like normal ship. Given that they can easily tear through multiple warship at the same time, i believe fragmentation would be reasonable enough.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

In fact, consider this: Coudnt you just as much argue that those Pawns just sunk after being destroyed? The gameplay animation is way to ambigous to be useable. On top of that, no other medium depicts Pawns as fully destroyed either. Yes, im aware that they are all non-canon, but it is still worth pondering over, why neither the trailers nor the anime adaption allign with what is assumed here.

As it stands, im against scaling Shipgirls to the values of completly destroyed ships either.

Fragmentation mean that the left over pieces were large enough to be distinguishable. The trailer have shown exactly that and the value of warship were done via frag.

 

[Antvasima]

I've looked over the OP and have read the bulk of the comments and I'm gonna agree with Fire Witch and Vietthai96. Gameplay visuals/mechanics aren't always the best things to use and while the trailer was short it gave us some depiction of their battles and we see the parts of the ship still remain.

At most I'd agree to a "possible" rating for the total destruction of said ships. I can't say much else given my lack of knowledge on the verse.

Thank you. It seems like we have likely reached a conclusion here then.

 

[First_Witch]

Just to clear up the confusion: I have NEVER agree with gameplay animation being vaporisation, in fact i have try to give an explanation over the Pawn "death" can be interfered as the pieces were sunk instead of destroyed.

One more thing is that actual warship can reach 8-A via firing their guns at same time which ship girl can did so. However, ship girl can easily tanked those barrage without sinking like normal ship. Given that they can easily tear through multiple warship at the same time, i believe fragmentation would be reasonable enough.

The only Shipclass that can reach 8-A via full barrages are Heavy Cruisers and Battleships, so Light Cruisers and Destroyer Shipgirls woudnt scale. Not only that, they dont reach 8A through full barrages in general, they reach 8A by firing all guns for a whole minute, so that is not a feat they should scale to either without actually performing it.

Fragmentation mean that the left over pieces were large enough to be distinguishable. The trailer have shown exactly that and the value of warship were done via frag.

You are literally using the full destruction value of Destroyers and Light Cruisers. Fragmentation values start at Building to Large building level across all ship classes.

 

[Vietthai96]

Just to clear up the confusion: I have NEVER agree with gameplay animation being vaporisation, in fact i have try to give an explanation over the Pawn "death" can be interfered as the pieces were sunk instead of destroyed.

One more thing is that actual warship can reach 8-A via firing their guns at same time which ship girl can did so. However, ship girl can easily tanked those barrage without sinking like normal ship. Given that they can easily tear through multiple warship at the same time, i believe fragmentation would be reasonable enough.

Alright, time to debunk, you said in game stage shipgirl can tank many, alright this the fight with Bismarck in game stage: https://azurlane.koumakan.jp/Memories/Scherzo_of_Iron_and_Blood#Chapter_15

she and player shipgirls tank alot
but in cutscene/dialogue: https://azurlane.koumakan.jp/Memories/Scherzo_of_Iron_and_Blood#Chapter_15 we have:

	A massive beam of light penetrated through the mist, a massive funnel of wind following in its wake.
	In the blink of an eye, it melted through King George V's armor, leaving a gaping hole.
King George V	Bismarck, what have you done...

So no, clearly they can't tank that amount of power, gameplay have HP mechanic and Damage/Defense mechanic so we can't use them to scale

 

[God243]

Well the Low 7-C is the assumption that Shipgirls can vaporize Iowa-class battleship level of durability which i'm against it because currently there is no mass-production or clone of Iowa-class in game yet to assume that high, and also assume Siren pawn ship have the superior durability to Iowa-class battleship just because they are high tech is a bold claim and baseless assumption, not only that but alsk Jame want At least rating which mean Low 7-C is bare minimum. I fear that in the future when Yamato class come out he will also claim that now Yamato are in game so Siren Pawn and Shipgirls should be at least superior to real life Yamato-class battleship and increases the rating further 0.0

Ships are directly made of Wisdom Cubes, which is consistently stated to surpass nuclear energy, including nuclear explosions of this magnitude. https://omniversal-battlefield.fand...perBearNeo_X/Azur_Lane:_Operation_Siren_Files it's true?

 

[Vietthai96]

Ships are directly made of Wisdom Cubes, which is consistently stated to surpass nuclear energy, including nuclear explosions of this magnitude. https://omniversal-battlefield.fand...perBearNeo_X/Azur_Lane:_Operation_Siren_Files it's true?

Right now no confirm this as this is just datamined information which could be changed in the future. Also being powered by a power sources of a level doesn't mean you can throw out the same level of power as the power source, and the omniversal battle blog i read many time over before AL verse page and profiles was created by Jame, and their explaination is quite bad, we hardly know the Wisdom Cube is truly superior or it is just better than nuclear warhead in term of explosion material. Right now there are many thing hidden about this Wisdom Cube as the Northen Union event some months back there stated that Wisdome Cube and Shipgirls are still a mystery, until the "future" timeline story appear and reveal us about the information then we should refrain from vague scaling like that (except that edgy Enty META who have singularity feat 0.0 for just herself =.=)

 

[God243]

Right now no confirm this as this is just datamined information which could be changed in the future. Also being powered by a power sources of a level doesn't mean you can throw out the same level of power as the power source, and the omniversal battle blog i read many time over before AL verse page and profiles was created by Jame, and their explaination is quite bad, we hardly know the Wisdom Cube is truly superior or it is just better than nuclear warhead in term of explosion material. Right now there are many thing hidden about this Wisdom Cube as the Northen Union event some months back there stated that Wisdome Cube and Shipgirls are still a mystery, until the "future" timeline story appear and reveal us about the information then we should refrain from vague scaling like that (except that edgy Enty META who have singularity feat 0.0 for just herself =.=)

Ah ok Bro thanks for the reply

 

[Antvasima]

I think that we reached a conclusion here earlier.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

BUMP!!

 

[Vietthai96]

BUMP!!

I'm waiting for Jame though

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

I know, i just wanted to make this thread alive

 

[Antvasima]

Is somebody willing to apply what has been accepted here?

 

[Jamesthetaker]

It seem like Vietthai96 and First_Witch proposal are accepted. I still have my own argument but thing have gone circular for a while now and it need to end now.

So here is the change for every characters: "High 8-C (Shipgirl can did significant damage to the Pawn which based on real life warship)"

If everybody agree then i will applied this.

 

[Vietthai96]

It seem like Vietthai96 and First_Witch proposal are accepted. I still have my own argument but thing have gone circular for a while now and it need to end now.

So here is the change for every characters: "High 8-C (Shipgirl can did significant damage to the Pawn which based on real life warship)"

If everybody agree then i will applied this.

Well if you have new argument, just bring it here, no problem if it is not old argument, we here to debate for the accuracy of the verse