Avatar Aang isn't Moon Level

[Deagonx]

Hello. This thread is intended to reverse an upgrade which made Aang and Korra 5-C in the Avatar state by scaling to the Moon Spirits. The logic went as such:

• Tui and La are the moon and ocean spirit respectively.
• This is considered literal since upon their death, the moon disappeared. So they're considered 5-C
• In Aang's fused form with the moon spirit, he is considered the same tier.

This is kind of absurd, because the disappearance of the moon resulted from Admiral Zhao killing a fish with a small fire blast. Unless we are to consider Admiral Zhao 5-C, then it is a simple fact that the spirits AP and Durability do not directly reflect their domain. Zhao's "feat" effectively demonstrates that the result (the disappearance of the moon) and the means (Zhao's blast) are not a direct 1:1 correlation. While certainly the relationship is different when Aang fuses with the spirit, there is no reason to assume that the relationship suddenly shifts to a 1:1 relationship. There's little basis for this scaling and it contradicts what we see in the show, Aangs feats in this state are orders of magnitude lower than what we currently tier him as.

I doubt that if Zhao had killed Tui instead that the oceans of the world would've spontaneously disappeared or something like that, but even if it did I wouldn't consider Aang merging with it as making his attacks as powerful as what would be needed to single-handedly destroy the oceans, the same way Hei Bai's attacks were not so strong that they could've immediately obliterated an entire forest.

 

[KLOL506]

@ByAsura

 

[KingTempest]

The thread kinda quite blatantly and repeatedly said "their physical vessels are not considered 5-C", something I noted which they countered validly.

Now I'm not a fan of 5-C Aang but this ain't the way to go about it.

 

[Jason_Courne]

Their physical bodies aren't Moon level, but their spiritual power was (obviously Koizilla is a manifestation of the latter)

 

[Maitreya12]

This is kind of absurd, because the disappearance of the moon resulted from Admiral Zhao killing a fish with a small fire blast. Unless we are to consider Admiral Zhao 5-C, then it is a simple fact that the spirits AP and Durability do not directly reflect their domain. Zhao's "feat" effectively demonstrates that the result (the disappearance of the moon) and the means (Zhao's blast) are not a direct 1:1 correlation. While certainly the relationship is different when Aang fuses with the spirit, there is no reason to assume that the relationship suddenly shifts to a 1:1 relationship. There's little basis for this scaling and it contradicts what we see in the show, Aangs feats in this state are orders of magnitude lower than what we currently tier him as.

From my knowledge in seeing this downgrade thread made before, the fish isn’t considered to have 5-C durability in the slightest, but it is considered to be the manifestation of the moon. So when Aang fuses with the spirit…he essentially becomes “the moon” only in physical form. This gets further established with that Water princess girl Sokka was in love with who sacrificed herself to….literally become the moon.

If anything that girl would have 5-C durability off that fact alone, so this can be scaled to Aang since he also fused with the fish spirit himself utilizing his avatar state.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Added tags

 

[KingTempest]

5-C Yue dura is crazy

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Of course the Moon Spirit is a glass cannon, but it comes from Raava and Vaatu having stronger Chi then them and unlike Moon Spirits and Ocean spirits having limits, theirs are more universal. And another thing, I also am iff on us assuming Avatars are 5-C outright and thought Kukui made better arguments for High 6-A Avatar states; though I do think the Kaiju forms and the true spirits are 5-C.

 

[Deagonx]

The thread kinda quite blatantly and repeatedly said "their physical vessels are not considered 5-C", something I noted which they countered validly.

I agree, but if (a) killing the fish can kill the moon, and (b) killing the spirit can kill the moon, I don't buy that the disproportionate relationship from (a) completely disappears in (b). There is probably an unmentioned "sun spirit" in the Avatar Verse, but even if such a thing was confirmed I would not be eager to assume the Avatar State was 4-C.

 

[KingTempest]

I agree, but if (a) killing the fish can kill the moon, and (b) killing the spirit can kill the moon, I don't buy that the disproportionate relationship from (a) completely disappears in (b).

The spirit's life force is tied to the creature. It's based off of whack sustenance rules.
Point is that killing the fish's vessel isn't scaleable to the AP of the spirit that controls the tides and such

 

[Deagonx]

Point is that killing the fish's vessel isn't scaleable to the AP of the spirit that controls the tides and such

I understand, and I don't think the fish is the same as the spirit, but I also don't think there's a very good reason to assume the spirit has the physical properties of the moon. IMO this is more or less demonstrated by the fish situation anyways. After all, the fish was in the pond and the moon was still out in space. So we can't envision the moon spirit being literally physically the moon, because if we did, what exactly was in the fish? It wasn't the moon. If we say it was the "moon spirit" then we'd run into a similar problem. How can the moon spirit both literally physically be the moon, but also be inside of a fish on Earth?

Whatever manifestation the Moon Spirit has on earth, I don't see how or why we'd link it to the physical durability of the moon, if the moon stays in space the whole time and the spirit is a separate thing entirely.

 

[KingTempest]

I understand, and I don't think the fish is the same as the spirit, but I also don't think there's a very good reason to assume the spirit has the physical properties of the moon. IMO this is more or less demonstrated by the fish situation anyways. After all, the fish was in the pond and the moon was still out in space. So we can't envision the moon spirit being literally physically the moon, because if we did, what exactly was in the fish? It wasn't the moon. If we say it was the "moon spirit" then we'd run into a similar problem. How can the moon spirit both literally physically be the moon, but also be inside of a fish on Earth?

Whatever manifestation the Moon Spirit has on earth, I don't see how or why we'd link it to the physical durability of the moon, if the moon stays in space the whole time and the spirit is a separate thing entirely.

It's linked to the sustenance of the moon. The spirit of the moon is what sustains the moon. Remove the spirit, remove the moon.

 

[Deagonx]

Yeah, I agree. I think that relationship demonstrates the divide between the Moon Spirit as it manifests on Earth (and how it would've manifested in combination with Aang to create Koizilla) and the actual physical moon.

 

[Firestorm808]

So we know that the Spirit creates an actual moon just by living.

The Spirit also controls the movement of the moon through some metaphysical connection with it, right? The moon is meant to be the "first" water bender because of its influence on the tides.

One could argue some sort of pseudo-earth bending is used to move the moon which in turn moves the tides.

The Avatar is powered by the Spirit Raava, who should be comparable if not stronger than the Moon Spirit.

This is just my general understanding of the situation.

 

[Deagonx]

So we know that the Spirit creates an actual moon just by living.

The Spirit also controls the movement of the moon through some metaphysical connection with it, right? The moon is meant to be the "first" water bender because of its influence on the tides.

One could argue some sort of pseudo-earth bending is used to move the moon which in turn moves the tides.

The Avatar is powered by the Spirit Raava, who should be comparable if not stronger than the Moon Spirit.

This is just my general understanding of the situation.

The question is whether it's safe to assume that this power, whatever shape it might take, is fully actualized in Koizilla or whenever Aang takes the Avatar State, which I don't think we have good evidence for.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Well, as I believe I said before, I personally think the stabilization feats of the spirits are not sufficiently tied into the UES to scale to bending (failing requirement 4) and that it isn't known that the moon is sustained by the character's power rather than existence (requirement 2).

In particular, that the bending power of Raava in particular scales to stabilizing the moon is questionable, rather than scaling to the bending ability of the spirit.

What the "bending" the moon does is concerned: Quantifying it alone would already come out as way less than moon level (it's just moving the tides). However, I also consider the scaling questionable, as I have my doubt that the moon bends the tides via chi instead of via gravity. As such I think it uses "bending" outside of the UES to move the tides. (Otherwise, does gravity work differently in the verse for the moon to have none? Or is the moon not a giant ball of rock in the verse?)

 

[ByAsura]

There's currently a thread about this in progress, and there was already a recently downgrade thread like this with far better logic (including literally the exact same points), and it failed.

The fish aren't the spirits, and they weren't why the Moon was destroyed.

The fish are the mortal forms of the Spirits after Tui and La decided to permanently manifest in the world.

The Moon and Ocean Spirits literally are the Moon and Ocean (both in the normal and Spirit Worlds), and they're directly responsible for and capable of manipulating the tidal forces of the ocean and moon/their orbits. When the fish died, the Spirits died because they're connected.

It's not a 5-C fireblast under anyone's logic.

Frankly, I'm tempted to close this out of hand if the OP gives nothing new (especially since I was planning on taking a week long break from the wiki within the next couple of days). And DT's points have already been addressed in the past and the latest thread.

There's little basis for this scaling and it contradicts what we see in the show, Aangs feats in this state are orders of magnitude lower than what we currently tier him as.

Aang's feats in that state are far below some of the shit he's displayed in base form. Not having powerful feats is not inherently a contradiction.

Obviously the creature that's responsible for the balance of the world didn't want to do more than destroy the Fire Navy. Plus, there's the fact that Tui and La's Spirit Oasis (a gateway to the Spirit World that they manifested through in the past) was in the North Pole.

5-C Yue dura is crazy

Yue is incorporeal. She doesn't have durability.

 

[KingTempest]

Why u had to put me on blast like that Asura

 

[ByAsura]

Because I wanted to test out my 5-C fireblasts.

The question is whether it's safe to assume that this power, whatever shape it might take, is fully actualized in Koizilla or whenever Aang takes the Avatar State, which I don't think we have good evidence for.

This is literally never shown in the series. When Unalaq and the Avatar merge with Raava and Vaatu, they gain all of their power at the time (including increased or decreased strength during Harmonic Convergence).

In this case, Aang directly merged with Spirit, not just La, and the physical water/light body of Koizilla is the Ocean's wrath personified with their combined powers. It's basically just a marionette that Aang and La use to beat people up with their actual power.

But, even if you were right, this would purely just change a single piece of supporting proof.

 

[Deagonx]

The fish aren't the spirits, and they weren't why the Moon was destroyed.

The fish are the mortal forms of the Spirits after Tui and La decided to permanently manifest in the world.

Yeah, but this is wrong.

Known as Tui and La in the spirit world, they are two of the oldest spirits on Earth. Legend says that the Ocean and Moon spirits permanently crossed over from the spirit world into the mortal world near the beginning of time. They created the oasis in the North Pole and took the form of two koi fish.

Over the ages, few have known the Ocean and Moon spirits’ true identities. But when a young lieutenant named Zhao looted an underground Earth Kingdom library, he discovered that the Ocean and Moon were actually the two koi fish

The spirits took those forms, they were just some random fish that Tui and La were possessing or something like that. The Ocean and Moon were those two fish, literally.

When the fish died, the Spirits died because they're connected.

When the fish died, the spirits died, because the fish are the spirits.

Zhao: But the Ocean and Moon gave up their immortality to become a part of our world.

Aang: I need to find the moon and the ocean.
Koh: Their spirit names are Tui and La, push and pull. And that has been the nature of their relationship for all time.
Aang: Please. Help me find them. An entire culture could be destroyed if I don't get their help.
Koh: Oh, you think you need their help. Actually it's quite the other way round. Someone's going to kill them!
Aang: What do you mean? How can I find them and protect them?
Koh: You've already met them, actually. Tui and La, your moon and ocean, have always circled each other in an eternal dance.

Tui and La aren't in the spirit world, they're in the mortal world. They literally are the Koi Fish in the ponds. The Koi Fish are literally the moon and the ocean, according to Koh. They are the Moon and Ocean Spirits, they gave up their immortality, they permanently crossed over to the mortal world to become a part of it. They took the form of two koi fish.

 

[ByAsura]

I'll be sure to respond later. I have something to do.

 

[Deagonx]

No rush.

 

[ByAsura]

I didn't say they were possessed or anything. What I'm referring to (and my apologies for not clarifying) is that they're only the spirits in the sense that they're the physical embodiment of the Moon and Ocean Spirits.

This is how there can even be a Moon to begin with, this is why Koh literally states that they're the physical moon and ocean, why Zhao clarifies that they're the Spirits' mortal form, and how The Moon Spirit on two occasions has separately manifested from the Moon in the form of Yue (including in the Spirit World, where the fish don't even exist) with the ability to control the tides.

Also, I apologise for getting a bit frustrated earlier. I'm just tired of having to go over this topic again and again. And I'm going to have to respond later again.

 

[Deagonx]

It's all good. I have work in about 6 hours, so I'm going to try and get some sleep. We can continue tomorrow.

 

[ByAsura]

I can't really put it off anymore. I have to leave the wiki for a week, as I said above and in our past PMs.

I've already given all my arguments and all the evidence I can muster in this and the last threads on this topic. So, frankly, it's up to you guys whether you believe it or not, and my presence here really can't change anyone's mind unless they haven't read the arguments already (which I'd strongly encourage everyone to do).

I also won't make some sort of counter thread if this gets accepted.

@BrackishBrineBroth @ProfessorKukui4Life Please take care of this while I'm away.

 

[Ayewale]

I agree with Deagonx.

 

[MeiouHades]

I disagree entirely

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I agree that 5-C from this is, at best, questionable. There is a great deal of room for doubt that I think is better pointed out by DT's point- this doesn't seem to fit all of our standards regarding sustaining structure feats nor UES. The mechanics of these spirit forms do not, in my opinion, properly display a relation to AP, and I'd be tenuously accepting of the downgrade as a result.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Maybe this thread should be put on hold while ByAsura is out?

 

[Tllmbrg]

I agree with OP

 

[KingTempest]

Maybe this thread should be put on hold while ByAsura is out?

^

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

Another one of these? I'm at work all day, so I can't respond until later.

 

[KLOL506]

Maybe this thread should be put on hold while ByAsura is out?

I think this is the best way to go about it.

 

[MeiouHades]

Another one of these? I'm at work all day, so I can't respond until later.

If my senior saw me defending Dragon Ball here, he’d probably take my side. He’s a fan too.

 

[Gasper]

Maybe this thread should be put on hold while ByAsura is out?

But he just said he won't argue anymore because it's tiering to him?

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Pretty sure the basis of the 5-C scaling is wrong anyway and they should just be High 6-A going by other threads but the gist is:

Tui and La are/sustain moon and ocean.

Raava and Vaatu are > Tui and La

Avatar is Raava + a guy

Avatar beat Vaatu

All Avatar 5-C/High 6-A

Whether the spirit energy that Tui and La use to sustain the moon and ocean can be used for AP, idk, probably not since their durability is trash and they’ve sacrificed their immortality in order for the two things to exist. They turned themselves into normal fish cause… idk why but it seems all they can do is vibe.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Maybe this thread should be put on hold while ByAsura is out?

In terms of being respectful, maybe, although ByAsura himself stated he had nothing else to add to the discussion- presuming this wasn't just something he was saying for fun, I don't think it is necessary by his own estimation or mine.

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

I'll say my piece when I get off from work. Not sure if KuKui is going to respond as he's been on very sporadically lately.

 

[Spilxson2]

I think them being 5-C with their durability not being 5-C is fine

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

I previously laid some points in the attempted previous downgrade thread (including offsite links which I'm not going to copypaste again here), and here's a tl;dr version

• Despite giving up their spiritual forms and seemingly being just ordinary fish, the ttrpg and the website state that Tui and La passively give off energy, some of the effects of which make their living quarters lush green and warm.
• The website states that they're two of the most powerful spirits that exist, again despite just being fish. The Legend of Korra later confirms that spirit energy itself can be measured by how powerful it is.
• The moon disappears when Tui dies. When Yue sacrifices herself to bring Tui back to life and become the new moon spirit, the moon doesn't immediately come back. Rather, it only appears after Spirit Yue says goodbye to Sokka. If the moon was only tied to Tui's life force and not her passive spirit energy, it should have come back immediately. This should count as a creation feat.
• Yue was able to see where Aang was when he was in the middle of the ocean during the season three premier, because she is the moon and is able to "see" through it

Something that I didn't really bring up in that thread was the Escape from the Spirit World online game (which is canon). In it, Yue and the moon appear in the Spirit World. It's interesting to note that later in the video, when it's still night, the moon isn't shown again. In fact, every other time we see the Spirit World, the moon is never shown in the sky. This seems to suggest that Yue made the whole-ass moon appear in the spirit world so that she could talk to Aang. Now, you could make the argument that the moon in the background was just an illusion or distances being weird, since the physics of the spirit world are pretty malleable. For the illusion argument, we've never seen anything like that happen in the Spirit World before, aside from local phenomenon caused by spiritual creatures (like the fog of lost souls, which is one big spiritual being). Certainly nothing in canon has suggested that Yue can create an illusion. And though distance in the Spirit World can be pretty fucky, the landscape is still solid until it changes. While the franchise doesn't make it 100% clear whether Yue herself is moving the moon, or is following gravitational forces, the fact that she made the moon appear in the Spirit World should count as a movement feat for her. There's also the fact that Harmonic Convergence exists, a celestial event where the planets line up, which bathes the Earth in spirit energy that is being released via the spirit portals. So celestial objects in the avatar universe have a great deal of spiritual presence.