• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

AtLA Revisions (Korra too)

Status
Not open for further replies.
So, do you guys want me to propose a solution for this? I'll make one up tomorrow or something.

One thing that I can say right now is that, if a character is capable of keeping up with an another character than can move at over Supersonic+ speeds, it is not entirely unreasonable for that said character's AP to be above peak human physical stats.

All of the characters should be Street level, at the very least, if not higher (even the chi blockers), considering that they can move way faster than even peak humans could anyways.
 
one does not move or blitz via reactions.

also, thats a combustion.

anyway, why am i even trying. i should stop, since i see you want to shut me down.
 
There is an explosive mechanism, the barrel probably contained some flamable liquid which indeed doesn't explode but the mechanism did.
 
We tend to count blocking explosions as combat speed.
 
^^ she cannot outrun an explosion, thats what i meant.

explosive mechanism blew the barrel to make it combust.
 
Ragazz said:
who can move at supersonic+ speeds? one does not move or blitz via reactions.
Click to expand...
If she can move her arm to airbend at a supersonic speed in order to block something, she can probably do that to attack too.
 
If it was accepted (as a non-outlier), I'll gladly do it. In fact, I'll do it now, and hit the undo button if not. Though I personally think that it's fine.
 
If ppl still doubt whether the lighting is legit or not would "Possibly" or "Likely" be a better fit? Though if the changes were already made then that's fine too.
 
What is LordX and Kkapoios' thoughts on that calc? We need their opinions on it first.

Also, I don't think Zuko is superior to Korra when it comes to physical abilities, and considering that Korra barely deflected that exploding barrel, I think that the lightning feat for Zuko may be an outlier.
 
I'd actually say that Zuko has better physical capabilities that Korra. Remember the Blue Spirit?

Also, I don't know if this is just season 3 only or prior, and what to do with Korra characters. But I took care of AtLA characters season 3 onwards. But I gotta go to sleep.
 
@Lina You can send them messages asking for input in the blog and here, if you wish.
 
Lina Shields said:
considering that Korra barely deflected that exploding barrel
Click to expand...
I'm sure Korra's suprise at finding an explosive instead of Aiwei accounted for her slow reaction.

So is lightning bending being recognised as real lightning now or what? There was a comment I wrote earlier about my points for why it should be considered real lightning.

And we've had characters using and dodging lightning bending from the 1st season of Korra. So Korra characters should now.get the upgrade too, not just Zuko and pals.
 
Yes, the Korra characters should scale as well, but somebody would have to perform the statistics changes for the profiles.
 
LoudCloud said:
So is lightning bending being recognised as real lightning now or what? There was a comment I wrote earlier about my points for why it should be considered real lightning.
Click to expand...
actually doenst the explanation of irro sound similar to electricity? it may not be lightning but electricity (depending on the medium in which it travels) can also be incredibly fast,

here is a page from wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_electricity

im not sure but can we use this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drift_velocity where it is said that accoridng to Fermi flow velocity the speed of electricity is at 1570 km/s (~mach 5233)?
 
So, if any other staff members are following this thread, are you willing to perform the statistics changes?
 
I am still uncertain if there are any other feats even close to this level of speed. However, I want to quote this phrase:

What I want to mean is that a feat isn't always outlier just because it is more impressive than a feat from a stronger character.
This would mean that the Zuko's lightning feat would still be a valid feat despite the fact that Korra performed a less impressive feat (such as the explosion block)

I have sent a message to LordXCano however. Right now, I am still on the fence regarding this.
 
I will say that chibi Aang likely has a MHS+ feat, and chibi Toph has a high tier 7 to mid tier 6 feat, but I'm almost positive that it's non canon.
 
Yeah, non-canon. The chibi comics were even put in the non-canon section of the Lost Adventures comic compilation.

But if dodging lightning is such a common thing in the ATLA-verse (which it seems to be amongst the higher tiers) then I don't see why it can't count.
 
The characters are peak human in terms of speed in pretty much every category with a few dubiously supersonic reflex feats. As a rule though, the setting didn't operate at speeds beyond what a human could reasonably replicate. They can still be threatened by archers and are never depicted with speed beyond human capacity save in very rare situations. Too rare to be considered consistent.

Toph is actually one of the slowest upper tier Avatar characters in the series. Those scenes show the speed of her sensory ability, not her actual movement speed. If you watch your own gif closely you'll see her opponent starts moving again at the same time she starts moving her foot, and by the time speed resumes to normal both of them are moving at the same pace. She's just one step ahead of him because of her sensory move. The Boulder scene never shows both characters on the screen at the same time to properly gauge speed, but given every other feat by Toph in the series it's incredibly unlikely she did her leg move so fast the Boulder was a statue comparatively. She just isn't that fast.

In a way Toph is a bit like a jedi. She uses her earth senses to feel vibrations in the ground and then react to attacks before they are actually fired at her, with gives her the illusion of superhuman reflexes. She is already preparing a counter attack before the opponent finishes his move. That is what the Boulder scene was meant to convey. She stopped his move short before he actually finished by redirecting the ground where his foot was about to land.

When it comes to character speed reflexes are only half of it. Actual movement speed matters too. And in that regard Toph is lacking compared to say, Ty Lee, and Sokka is able to keep up with Ty Lee to some extent.

Most anime go over the top with speed, so it would be hard to find a setting that wouldn't be moving so fast the Avatar team can't perceive them. You might have some luck with Fullmetal Alchemist, just keep them away from King Bradley and anyone in his bracket, as he is perfectly capable of slicing things to pieces before peak humans can even see his hand move.

You'd be better off sticking to other western cartoons because as a general rule western animation is less likely to hand out incredible super speed to characters who don't even have speed in their described power set.
 
I realized part of the beauty of Avatar is that the focus was on the martial arts and the bending, not on physical stats. The characters didn't zip around faster than the eye can see or take shortcuts with physicals to prove they were formidable. When you saw Azula fight what made her dangerous in your mind was the choreography and how well she used her moves, not her incredible strength or speed. To insist that Avatar characters have hypersonic+ speed or mountain busting strength is to ignore what the show was about to try and justify their characters winning on the battle forum, and that mentality, I feel, is harmful to the fandom as a whole. Just my two cents, and this isn't aimed at you guys (since some of you are very hesitant to put these characters on that level), just at some tards that I've seen and me placing Avatar characters against shonen anime characters.´╗┐
 
Well, we tend to make a great distinction between combat speed and travel/running speed.

In addition, we rate most characters from all fictions by their highest speed feats.

For example, the Marvel characters are generally treated as having comparatively low level superhuman speeds, yet are largely uniformly scaled from a few of Thor's MFTL+ feats. The inconsistency is distastefully staggering, but we do not seem to have much of a choice, and cannot select some franchises to treat disfavourably in this respect, as it would be unfair to them and their audience.
 
Antvasima said:
Well, we tend to make a great distinction between combat speed and travel/running speed.
In addition, we rate most characters from all fictions by their highest speed feats.

For example, the Marvel characters are generally treated as having comparatively low level superhuman speeds, yet are largely uniformly scaled from a few of Thor's MFTL+ feats. The inconsistency is distastefully staggering, but we do not seem to have much of a choice, and cannot select some franchises to treat disfavourably in this respect, as it would be unfair to them and their audience.
Click to expand...
Understandable I'll probably stick with Comic Vine and Who would win Reddit, I still don't agree with using the outlier as fact but this is a Wiki after all. I mean the series state Aang can move at the speed of wind so MHS is too far out there for me.
 
There is a discussion on another thread about the feat being an outlier.

You are free to believe which site is the best but expressing such feelings isn't appreciated.
 
Gwynbleiddd said:
There is a discussion on another thread about the feat being an outlier.
You are free to believe which site is the best but expressing such feelings isn't appreciated.
Click to expand...
Link? And appreciate my feeling which is good enough for me :)
 
^^ exactly what i mean. which is ranging from transonic to hypersonic (on special conditions) in reactions.
 
I don't really mind the ATLA-verse remaining at supersonic level but if lightning-bending is considered to function like actual lightning (once again, I refer you to my post about it sharing far too many similar properties to real lightning/electricity for it to just be "magic" lightning as is often the case in fiction) and keeping in mind that lightning-bending is a pretty common and viable technique in the ATLA-verse (There have been at least 6 characters shown to produce it, contrasting other verses where lightning is shown once or only used by 1 character) and keeping in mind that multiple characters react to it (At least 6 characters can redirect it and more can dodge it, contrasting other verses where reacting is a one time event) then I don't see why it shouldn't count. Sure it would be an upper-bound feat but that's kind of how it works in here.

The characters mention it as if it's general bending knowledge that lightning-bending is a thing. It's not some super mysterious, obscure technique shown/used/mentioned once and never acknowledged again (as often the case with outliers); Lightning-bending is made to fit into ATLA's world just as much as anything else.

It's weird that people point towards the fact that characters struggle against arrows as evidence that lightning dodging is an outlier. Even though the archery thing happened in 1 episode of the first season before never being used or mentioned again. So I wonder which one is the outlier here: the thing that happens once, in an early episode of the first season or the thing that is shown and mentioned consistently throughout all 7 seasons. Hmm....

Not that it matters since I re-watched the episode and Aang dodges all the arrows shot at him. The only time he's hit is when he's taken by suprise.

The same goes for characters struggling to react to thrown weapons in the ATLA-verse (knives, needles etc.), because the weapon's speed is dependant on the user's speed/strength anyway (the faster/harder you throw something, the faster it goes). So to argue that is to argue Naruto characters being human level for failing to dodge kunais.

I think the reason people are so fixed on ATLA being peak-human/subsonic/supersonic only is because the characters aren't animated to look like they're going that fast. But that's just a staple of western animation. Characters look like they're going at peak human speed but if look at their feats, you'd see otherwise.
 
Well (not agreeing or disagreeing) for the Naruto thing, im pretty sure that applies to only average characters, not notable ones. And it depends on who is launching the said knives, needles, etc. and as far as I know, I don't know anyone in Avatar who has the strength to launch projectiles moving at such speeds since, well, majority of the verse outside of the characters are average humans. That would also go for launched elemental projectiles like if an earth bender launched a boulder at another bender.
 
"Also, we don't even know if the lightning in the Avatar verse has real lightning speed, thus assuming that said lightning is moving at the speed of real lightning/drift velocity is ********.

In short, MHS Avatarverse is likely an outlier considering that Korra barely reacted to a Supersonic+ attack (aka explosion), as well other characters considering bows and arrows dangerous within the series" This is a comment from the person that made the calc.
 
Actually, after looking at the Mako vs Ming Hua scene again and looking up what Lightning does when hitting water, I might have to disagree with the point on Chi Lightning being able to conduct electricty in water. Im not sure if my point is right or wrong, but I would still like to address it since something was bothering me in that scene.

Okay. So after looking up what Lightning specifically does when hitting water, I found that lighting strikes, even average ones, can span over at least 5 miles in length when in water and reach temperatues hotter than the Sun's surface. And although it does not target water as much as land, lightning specifically spreads all over the water its hitting, acting as a conductor. Its capable of hitting nearby boats and fish that are near the surface of water, according to this link . And from what this link says , average lightning strikes can even go from 5 to 10 miles when in water.

Now, Mako and Ming were fighting in a decently sized cavern during that battle and, from what the fighting scene showed, Mako wasnt specifically targetting Ming with his chi lightning. He was aiming for the water itself to try and take her out. In addition, since he and Ming were the only people in the cavern at the time, there would be no reason for Mako to specifcially target only her when aiming at the water, specifically the water she was using to fight with, would be an easier way to beat her. Now, if what I gathered about real ligthing is correct, then if Chi Lightning was able to conduct in water like real lightning can then Mako's lightning attack would have spanned at least 5 miles from where he is onwards in the water, clearly much larger than the entire Cavern's own size. But when he launched it, the chi lightning only surrounded and targeted Ming. It wasnt even electrocuting the area in which they both were in, or the area of water Mako himself was targetting, as shown here:
Lightning Feat
Red shows where the lightning is sparking. Yellow shows the water in the cavern that wasn't effected by the lightning.




Furthermore, lets take into account the temperature (if it will help). Now, average lightning is able to have temperatures hotter than the heat of the surace of the Sun. And the Sun's surface is roughly 5505 degrees C, or 9941 degrees F. Of course, water is also able to evaporate just from pure sunlight by itself and even boil with less heat but lets find the temparatures of those too. To boil water, you would have to be at 100 degrees C or 212 degrees C. For Sunlight, I couldnt find an exact temperature but, IIRC, room temperature is enough to evaporate water. And room temperature is about 70 degrees F or 21.1111 degrees C. Now, as far as chi lightning goes, to claim that the temperature of chi lightning generated by Fire Benders is lower than that of the sun can be very speculative, so I wont really go into that. But what we can determine is that for it to be considered real lightning, it would have to have temperatures that at least rival, if not, surpass the heat of evaportation and/or boiling water. But from what we can gather here, given its portrayal, it should be safe to say that Mako's lightning was not even at boiling or evaporting temperature as when it hits the water, we dont see the water start to steam up or even start to boil (and this isnt the first time lightning in Avatar hasnt shown the required temperature or heated burning effects incase those wondered). Furthermore, when Ming is directly hit, electrocuted by the lightning and passes out, she doesnt even show to have steam coming from her or have any kind of burn marks/effects. And incase those want to claim that waterbenders can likely not show burnmarks when hit with anything hot, that is not true. Katara was easily burned when Aang played around with fire and it required her to use healing in order to treat her burns. So, to make things short, if Mako's chi lightning didnt have the right temperature to even boil or evaporate water, then there is no way that his lightning could be as hot or hotter than the Sun's surface, temperature required for lightning to be considered natural real lightning.

Again, I don't know if these are good points to bring up, but this scene was bothering me after I rewatched it and I wanted to say what was on my mind.
 
Does fictional "lightning" have to show all properties of real lightning to count? Or do we see how many similarities it has vs differences?
 
I'm not saying it isn't real lightning I'm saying that specific point of conducting in water shouldn't be used, IF I'm even right in the first place.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

TiltedFN
Ozai durability justification removal
Replies
19
Views
1K
Propellus
Propellus
BrackishBrineBroth
  • Locked
(Avatar) Ability additions
Replies
23
Views
2K
Propellus
Propellus
BrackishBrineBroth
  • Locked
More abilities for Avatar characters
Replies
14
Views
2K
DarkDragonMedeus
DarkDragonMedeus
BrackishBrineBroth
  • Locked
A few more additions for the Avatarverse
Replies
12
Views
2K
BrackishBrineBroth
BrackishBrineBroth
BrackishBrineBroth
Ozai ability addition and Toph buffs
Replies
15
Views
918
BrackishBrineBroth
BrackishBrineBroth
Back
Top