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I love how legitimately no one is focusing on the AP aspects of the thread.
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AtLA Revisions (Korra too)
- Thread starter The_real_cal_howard
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True, and it's important to keep in mind that much like fire in the series, lightning is conducted from within the body as well as from an outside source.
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Just for the sake of keeping up with the argument, I'll post the similarities bender lightning still has with real lightnning
- The whole "every other element manipulated in the show is the actual natural element so why shouldn't that apply to lightning?" argument. If that counts.
- Iroh can redirect real lightning with the exact same technique he uses to redirect firebender lightining so they probably have the same properties.
- Same goes for the fact that firebender lightning is said to stop someone's heart like real electricty.
- And the fact that it can conduct through a person's body.
- Mako used his lightning to overload the Colossus' core which was being powered by electricity.
- Mako aborbs a Mecha Tank's electricity and uses it with lightning bending. I'd say this is quite an overlooked one. The fact a machine's electricity is used for lightning bending is a pretty big clue.
- The whole "every other element manipulated in the show is the actual natural element so why shouldn't that apply to lightning?" argument. If that counts.
- Iroh can redirect real lightning with the exact same technique he uses to redirect firebender lightining so they probably have the same properties.
- Same goes for the fact that firebender lightning is said to stop someone's heart like real electricty.
- And the fact that it can conduct through a person's body.
- Mako used his lightning to overload the Colossus' core which was being powered by electricity.
- Mako aborbs a Mecha Tank's electricity and uses it with lightning bending. I'd say this is quite an overlooked one. The fact a machine's electricity is used for lightning bending is a pretty big clue.
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Well, for Mako's bending anyway, if my argument is solid then his lighting wouldnt be real lighting since it didnt even properly conduct in water, as well as burn/heat up a person which normal electrocuting from Lightning would do. And as for conducting someone, could Conducting within a person may be that its chi is just flowing through them? Or something like that? Zuko said something about that.
"If you let the energy in your own body flow, the lightning will follow it. You turn your opponents energy against them." Zuko said.
"Just like Waterbending!" Aang replied.
Source
How would Iroh redirecting it mean his lightning is the same as real lightning? Wouldnt that mean he just has no other way of redirecting or controlling the lightning made by fire benders so he has to control it the same way he did the feat?
IIRC, lightning generated by a firebender stops their heart when they redirect it incorrectly.
Also, I dont remember the Spirit Core being powered by electricity, but rather spirit energy instead. And this link to the avatar wiki's page of the Mecha Suits, which the Spirit Core was powering, should say it.
"If you let the energy in your own body flow, the lightning will follow it. You turn your opponents energy against them." Zuko said.
"Just like Waterbending!" Aang replied.
Source
How would Iroh redirecting it mean his lightning is the same as real lightning? Wouldnt that mean he just has no other way of redirecting or controlling the lightning made by fire benders so he has to control it the same way he did the feat?
IIRC, lightning generated by a firebender stops their heart when they redirect it incorrectly.
Also, I dont remember the Spirit Core being powered by electricity, but rather spirit energy instead. And this link to the avatar wiki's page of the Mecha Suits, which the Spirit Core was powering, should say it.
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Fire benders lose that ability during a solar eclipse. Also Zuko couldn't fire bend because he lost rage and had to learn a new fire bending style.
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@Ragazz
Bending in Avatar is explicitly described as the Four Elements. All of the bent elements display the properties of their natural counterparts, and are directly taken from the environment in every bending style except for fire. It would be ludicrous to call Firebending the odd one out, when it too has displayed all of the natural properties of fire.
Bending in Avatar is explicitly described as the Four Elements. All of the bent elements display the properties of their natural counterparts, and are directly taken from the environment in every bending style except for fire. It would be ludicrous to call Firebending the odd one out, when it too has displayed all of the natural properties of fire.
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Artificial flames?Ragazz said:
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there is still the thing with the explanation for lightning bending, link: http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Lightning_GenerationRagazz said:
Lightning Generation, also known as cold-blooded fire, is a sub-skill within firebending that allows a firebender to produce lightning by separating the positive and negative energies internally, before directing it up through the arm and out the fingertips.
it uses pre-existing elements (albeit on atomic scale) in order to control lightning, therefore only because firebending consists out of creating fire out of chi doesnt mean the same for lightning...
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"And as for conducting someone, could Conducting within a person may be that its chi is just flowing through them? Or something like that?"
So why would Chi then be able to stop someone's heart when conducting? I'd say it's far more likely that it's electricity stopping someone's heart (something we know is capable of doing that ) as opposed to "Chi" (who's heart-stopping capabilities are just speculation with no evidence). Iroh specifically states "you must not let the lightning pass through your heart" and not "chi" or "energies".
"lightning generated by a firebender stops their heart when they redirect it incorrectly"
Yes, because they let it pass through their heart as opposed to "forcing it" through their stomach instead.
"I dont remember the Spirit Core being powered by electricity, but rather spirit energy instead"
And there is electricity being passed through the spirit vines. You can see two Dr-Frankenstein-esque probes on top of it conducting yellow electricity into the engine. Check the scene if you want. This is also backed up by how Mako defeated a Mecha Tank in season 1 by absorbing its electricity and firing it back with lightning bending.
"How would Iroh redirecting it mean his lightning is the same as real lightning? Wouldnt that mean he just has no other way of redirecting or controlling the lightning made by fire benders so he has to control it the same way he did the feat?"
What does that even mean?
What I meant is that if the same technique works on both actual lightning and bending lightning, it's only logical they share the same properties. Iroh explains the reason his technique works in the first place is because it's specially taylored with lightining's properties in mind and he uses that technique on the two types just fine. And we later see that technique work on mechanical electricity (Mako) too. So yeah, they're probably all the same "type" of lightning. Otherwise Iroh's technique would work with bending lightning but not natural lightning (or vice-versa).
So why would Chi then be able to stop someone's heart when conducting? I'd say it's far more likely that it's electricity stopping someone's heart (something we know is capable of doing that ) as opposed to "Chi" (who's heart-stopping capabilities are just speculation with no evidence). Iroh specifically states "you must not let the lightning pass through your heart" and not "chi" or "energies".
"lightning generated by a firebender stops their heart when they redirect it incorrectly"
Yes, because they let it pass through their heart as opposed to "forcing it" through their stomach instead.
"I dont remember the Spirit Core being powered by electricity, but rather spirit energy instead"
And there is electricity being passed through the spirit vines. You can see two Dr-Frankenstein-esque probes on top of it conducting yellow electricity into the engine. Check the scene if you want. This is also backed up by how Mako defeated a Mecha Tank in season 1 by absorbing its electricity and firing it back with lightning bending.
"How would Iroh redirecting it mean his lightning is the same as real lightning? Wouldnt that mean he just has no other way of redirecting or controlling the lightning made by fire benders so he has to control it the same way he did the feat?"
What does that even mean?
What I meant is that if the same technique works on both actual lightning and bending lightning, it's only logical they share the same properties. Iroh explains the reason his technique works in the first place is because it's specially taylored with lightining's properties in mind and he uses that technique on the two types just fine. And we later see that technique work on mechanical electricity (Mako) too. So yeah, they're probably all the same "type" of lightning. Otherwise Iroh's technique would work with bending lightning but not natural lightning (or vice-versa).
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Right but what im proposing is that the reason the lightning could stop a benders heart isnt because of it being real, but because the bender him/herself are just incorrectly manipulating it inside their body. If that clears things up a bit?
Hmm. If possible could you link me the scene please? Or tell me which episode its from so I can look it up on my own?
Apologies, I may have worded that wrong. The argument is that Iroh's bender lightning is the same as real lightning since both can be bended in the same manner. But what im questioning here is that, wouldnt Iroh bend both the same way because thats the only way he can bend them? Whether its fake lightning or real lightning, Iroh and no fire bender has an alternate way of bending lightning outside of their regular redirecting technique so it should logical to assume that Iroh is bending the real lightning the only way he can, as he does with bender lightning. Also what do you mean by Iroh saying the lightning's properties?
Also there is something else I thought of.
Even if bender lightning is considered real lightning, don't all of the characters who can react to it properly have trouble dodging launched elements at them, such as fire? I argued this before and was told be wrong due to the bending attacks from benders being able to simply travel as fast as the lightning does and I accepted that. But after some thinking, I found something strange.
How would fire bending launched from MHS characters be as fast as the benders lightning (which is what makes the characters MHS in the first place) when lightning bending is supposed to be an advanced version of said fire bending? In other words, I find it strange how normal fire bending could keep up or be compared to lightning bending when all manner of fire bending shouldnt compare to lightning bending in any way. It would be like saying regular earth bending could compare to, lets say, Metal and Sand bending when they're higher level versions of Earth bending in general. Or the most notable example, Waterbending be able to compare to Bloodbending, a much higher level form of water bending that even requires the raw power of the full moon to unleash (except for those who have shown to use it without a full moon, but still needed to do extreme levels of training to complete, training in which no normal water bender could ever acomplish. And as a bonus, Amon's bloodbending being able to even take way others bending....) And incase we want to use other verses as examples, we could also say its strange how Naruto's Rasengan could ever be comparable to his Rasenshuriken, a technique thats directly a higher up from the Rasengan.
I may be overthinking this probably but its better I bring it up for discussion so I can see if there's flaws within it.
Hmm. If possible could you link me the scene please? Or tell me which episode its from so I can look it up on my own?
Apologies, I may have worded that wrong. The argument is that Iroh's bender lightning is the same as real lightning since both can be bended in the same manner. But what im questioning here is that, wouldnt Iroh bend both the same way because thats the only way he can bend them? Whether its fake lightning or real lightning, Iroh and no fire bender has an alternate way of bending lightning outside of their regular redirecting technique so it should logical to assume that Iroh is bending the real lightning the only way he can, as he does with bender lightning. Also what do you mean by Iroh saying the lightning's properties?
Also there is something else I thought of.
Even if bender lightning is considered real lightning, don't all of the characters who can react to it properly have trouble dodging launched elements at them, such as fire? I argued this before and was told be wrong due to the bending attacks from benders being able to simply travel as fast as the lightning does and I accepted that. But after some thinking, I found something strange.
How would fire bending launched from MHS characters be as fast as the benders lightning (which is what makes the characters MHS in the first place) when lightning bending is supposed to be an advanced version of said fire bending? In other words, I find it strange how normal fire bending could keep up or be compared to lightning bending when all manner of fire bending shouldnt compare to lightning bending in any way. It would be like saying regular earth bending could compare to, lets say, Metal and Sand bending when they're higher level versions of Earth bending in general. Or the most notable example, Waterbending be able to compare to Bloodbending, a much higher level form of water bending that even requires the raw power of the full moon to unleash (except for those who have shown to use it without a full moon, but still needed to do extreme levels of training to complete, training in which no normal water bender could ever acomplish. And as a bonus, Amon's bloodbending being able to even take way others bending....) And incase we want to use other verses as examples, we could also say its strange how Naruto's Rasengan could ever be comparable to his Rasenshuriken, a technique thats directly a higher up from the Rasengan.
I may be overthinking this probably but its better I bring it up for discussion so I can see if there's flaws within it.
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Well, if the lightning can even charge power plants, it does infeed seem to have real properties.
The issue seems to be the extreme inconsistencies with most characters having trouble dodging other projectiles. However, this is technically commonplace within plenty of our featured fictions, that we nevertheless gauge from their higher feats.
The issue seems to be the extreme inconsistencies with most characters having trouble dodging other projectiles. However, this is technically commonplace within plenty of our featured fictions, that we nevertheless gauge from their higher feats.
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Even if the higher end feats creates a large gap from the common feats in a verse that doesn't focus on power?Antvasima said:
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Especially Steven Universe, given the "focus on power" thing. The argument of "verse doesn't focus on power" is inherently flawed on battle forums. Most of our tier 1s don't "focus on power"
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@Kukui
Iroh redirecting Cloud-to-Ground Lightning at an extremely early point in the series.
By your current logic, water-bent water isn't water, earth-bent earth isn't earth, and air-bent air isn't air. There's no other way to manipulate them because it's the core of the series.
The correlation between fire and lightning is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that Avatar's lightning has displayed all of the properties of lightning and is shown to be comparable to actual lightning.
Iroh redirecting Cloud-to-Ground Lightning at an extremely early point in the series.
By your current logic, water-bent water isn't water, earth-bent earth isn't earth, and air-bent air isn't air. There's no other way to manipulate them because it's the core of the series.
The correlation between fire and lightning is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that Avatar's lightning has displayed all of the properties of lightning and is shown to be comparable to actual lightning.
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Well Steven Universe isn't over yet and there are more things to explore about the gems. Plus the main themes of AtLA is inner peace and spirituality so my point still stands.The real cal howard said:
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@Reppuzan
The link you gave was Cloud-to-Sea Lightning not Cloud-to-Ground Lightning.
The link you gave was Cloud-to-Sea Lightning not Cloud-to-Ground Lightning.
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Does it make any difference?
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Yeah there shouldn't be any difference between cloud-to-ground and cloud-to-ocean.
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"what im proposing is that the reason the lightning could stop a benders heart isnt because of it being real, but because the bender him/herself are just incorrectly manipulating it inside their body"
But it'd be very weirdly specific for lightning bending to harm your heart but not your other organs. As I've said, the reason why lightning bending stops your heart but not the other organs is because it works just like real lightning. Iroh tells Zuko to avoid the heart specifically because it is vunerable to the lightning. This tells us the harm is due to the fact that it's the heart and not becuase it's "incorrectly manipulated".
"could you link me the scene please?"
Sure I can.
"wouldnt Iroh bend both the same way because thats the only way he can bend them? Whether its fake lightning or real lightning, Iroh and no fire bender has an alternate way of bending lightning outside of their regular redirecting technique so it should logical to assume that Iroh is bending the real lightning the only way he can, as he does with bender lightning."
That's beside the point. It doesn't matter that Iroh doesn't know a different way to bend real lightning. If anything it backs up my point. The fact he can use the same technique to redirect both "types" is a big giveaway that they behave the same way. Otherwise, the technique would work with one type but not the other and Iroh wouldn't have even attempted to redirect real lightning.
"what do you mean by Iroh saying the lightning's properties?"
Iroh describes lightning generation and redirection by refering to how it utilises specific properties (seperating energies, creating pathways in the body etc.). This shows us that lightning direction works because it's specially taylord to certain properties. We see the technique also works with real lightning. This implies the properties of bending lightning and real lightning are the same.
Let me use a weird metaphor in case you still don't get it: Imagine I had technique that turned paper into gold. The technique worked because it was specially taylored to paper's properties. Now imagine I use it on an unknown substance and it still works. Chances are that substance is also paper. Otherwise the technique wouldn't work (because it would not have paper's properties). Hopefully that made sense.
"Even if bender lightning is considered real lightning, don't all of the characters who can react to it properly have trouble dodging launched elements at them, such as fire?"
It might just be a small speed gap and as you've mentioned the speed of the element would depend on the bender (similar to kunais in Naruto).
"How would fire bending launched from MHS characters be as fast as the benders when lightning bending is supposed to be an advanced version of said fire bending?"
Just because it's an "advanced" version doesn't mean it's automatically a lot faster. I'll admit that lightning (bending) is shown as faster than fire (bending) but the actual difference is unknown. Note that Iroh says that lightning's advantages are its power and precision, not its speed.
"It would be like saying regular earth bending could compare to, lets say, Metal and Sand bending when they're higher level versions of Earth bending"
Neither have any evidence of being faster than Earthbending that I've seen. They're advantage is simply being stronger (metal) or more adaptable (sand) than Earth, not faster.
"Or the most notable example, Waterbending be able to compare to Bloodbending"
Bloodbending's advantage is its ability to control another person's body. The only reason it works much faster than normal waterbending is because it's manipulating already existing water from far away. Not that it matters since characters don't really "react" to it. It makes little sense to use it as an example of advanced bending being faster.
But it'd be very weirdly specific for lightning bending to harm your heart but not your other organs. As I've said, the reason why lightning bending stops your heart but not the other organs is because it works just like real lightning. Iroh tells Zuko to avoid the heart specifically because it is vunerable to the lightning. This tells us the harm is due to the fact that it's the heart and not becuase it's "incorrectly manipulated".
"could you link me the scene please?"
Sure I can.
"wouldnt Iroh bend both the same way because thats the only way he can bend them? Whether its fake lightning or real lightning, Iroh and no fire bender has an alternate way of bending lightning outside of their regular redirecting technique so it should logical to assume that Iroh is bending the real lightning the only way he can, as he does with bender lightning."
That's beside the point. It doesn't matter that Iroh doesn't know a different way to bend real lightning. If anything it backs up my point. The fact he can use the same technique to redirect both "types" is a big giveaway that they behave the same way. Otherwise, the technique would work with one type but not the other and Iroh wouldn't have even attempted to redirect real lightning.
"what do you mean by Iroh saying the lightning's properties?"
Iroh describes lightning generation and redirection by refering to how it utilises specific properties (seperating energies, creating pathways in the body etc.). This shows us that lightning direction works because it's specially taylord to certain properties. We see the technique also works with real lightning. This implies the properties of bending lightning and real lightning are the same.
Let me use a weird metaphor in case you still don't get it: Imagine I had technique that turned paper into gold. The technique worked because it was specially taylored to paper's properties. Now imagine I use it on an unknown substance and it still works. Chances are that substance is also paper. Otherwise the technique wouldn't work (because it would not have paper's properties). Hopefully that made sense.
"Even if bender lightning is considered real lightning, don't all of the characters who can react to it properly have trouble dodging launched elements at them, such as fire?"
It might just be a small speed gap and as you've mentioned the speed of the element would depend on the bender (similar to kunais in Naruto).
"How would fire bending launched from MHS characters be as fast as the benders when lightning bending is supposed to be an advanced version of said fire bending?"
Just because it's an "advanced" version doesn't mean it's automatically a lot faster. I'll admit that lightning (bending) is shown as faster than fire (bending) but the actual difference is unknown. Note that Iroh says that lightning's advantages are its power and precision, not its speed.
"It would be like saying regular earth bending could compare to, lets say, Metal and Sand bending when they're higher level versions of Earth bending"
Neither have any evidence of being faster than Earthbending that I've seen. They're advantage is simply being stronger (metal) or more adaptable (sand) than Earth, not faster.
"Or the most notable example, Waterbending be able to compare to Bloodbending"
Bloodbending's advantage is its ability to control another person's body. The only reason it works much faster than normal waterbending is because it's manipulating already existing water from far away. Not that it matters since characters don't really "react" to it. It makes little sense to use it as an example of advanced bending being faster.
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The last 2 points weren't actually referring to speed xD but that's beside the point, the lightning is excepted as real already.
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So, is anybody willing to clarify within the AtLA and TLoK profiles that their speeds are scaled from Zuko and this calculatio?
Simply writing down that they have Massively Hypersonic speeds, without an explanation, is obviously not enough.
Simply writing down that they have Massively Hypersonic speeds, without an explanation, is obviously not enough.
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@Antvasima
Probably every major character in the series, but this is what I can rattle off the top of my head.
Aang, Katara, and Sokka would all get it for deailng with Zuko on numerous occasions (or at least running from him).
Azula for being the source of that lightning and fighting Zuko just prior to the above feat.
Iroh for being vastly superior to basically every firebender in the series short of Avatars and Ozai.
Korra for being the Avatar in an era where Lightning users are increasingly ubiquitous, Mako and Boli for keeping up with her and others.
Tenzi and his kids for having better reactions than Korra at the start of the series.
Literally anyone who has fought them on a regular basis, such as Amo.
Probably every major character in the series, but this is what I can rattle off the top of my head.
Aang, Katara, and Sokka would all get it for deailng with Zuko on numerous occasions (or at least running from him).
Azula for being the source of that lightning and fighting Zuko just prior to the above feat.
Iroh for being vastly superior to basically every firebender in the series short of Avatars and Ozai.
Korra for being the Avatar in an era where Lightning users are increasingly ubiquitous, Mako and Boli for keeping up with her and others.
Tenzi and his kids for having better reactions than Korra at the start of the series.
Literally anyone who has fought them on a regular basis, such as Amo.
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Perhaps an explanation/statement that reads
For Zuko, it will be written as:
- Massively Hypersonic reactions/combat speed via scaling (Should not be significantly slower in comparison to Zuko, who managed to catch a lightning bolt)
For Zuko, it will be written as:
- Massively Hypersonic reactions/combat speed via scaling (Managed to catch a lightning bolt directed at Katara)
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Then the changes in speed will be made. The characters that Reppuzan listed in his post will have their speed settings changed according to what's been written in the above post.
Edit: Perhaps others can give their thoughts before changes can be made, especially regarding Aang and Korra's speed.
Should Aang and Korra's speed be flat-out Massively Hypersonic? I don't think Aang and Korra's speed jumped hundreds of times throughout the series.
Edit: Perhaps others can give their thoughts before changes can be made, especially regarding Aang and Korra's speed.
Should Aang and Korra's speed be flat-out Massively Hypersonic? I don't think Aang and Korra's speed jumped hundreds of times throughout the series.
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Didnt Amon fail to dodge Mako's lightning? Or would we count that as PIS?
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He was caught off-guard. He was blood-bending Mako's fingers from up close but Mako managed to generate lightning from them. https://youtu.be/g4CYMGr_Nsg?t=3m21sProfessorKukui4Life said:
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