Ash's Pikachu Power Scaling

[Ionliosite]

Yeah, look for admins other than Cal, this won't go anywhere otherwise.

 

[Theformofacast]

Pikachu was able to damage Tapu Koko without the use of Z-moves, even if I remember correctly he defeated Silvally. Melmetal scales to 4-B for fighting Silvally in the anime. So I propose that the new key should be "At least High 7-A, likely far higher", instead of only "likely higher".

 

[CloverDragon03]

That could be possible. For now, we should have an admin come in and give some input

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm not too familiar with Pokemon scaling, but there are a lot of inconsistencies in the Anime. In the movies, Pikachu has often been able to do well against Legendary Pokemon. However, the same Pikachu has also consistently been shown to struggle against Gym leaders' Pokemon even when some of his under-leveled Pokemon were able to do just fine. So we kind of needed something more mid end to scale him from.

Second, the term "Outlier" is extremely loose. Being "A single feat far above every other feat the character or verse performs" doesn't automatically make it an outlier. While at the same time, instances can happen a lot and still be outliers. It basically just means inconsistency and it's more about case by case and context rather than frequency that determines "Outliers". Like if all low end feats are extremely casual or all Anti-feats are just characters goofing around, the concrete high end feat should take priority if done by a character who's supposed to be top tier. If a fodder character has one of the best feats or has been shown to survive encounters from characters much stronger than them, then it's prone to outliers.

 

[Ionliosite]

That's why we're saying he would be only High 7-A on his Sun & Moon key, because 4-B is too much.

 

[CloverDragon03]

This is why we considered having a separate key for the Sun and Moon series onwards, because in Sun and Moon and the 2019 anime, Pikachu has scaled more consistently to higher-tier Pokemon, with feats such as making Lugia, a 6-B, flinch with a Thunderbolt, somewhat compete with Leon's Gigantamax Charizard (at least to the point where the gap between them isn't a stomp), overpowering a combined Hyper Beam from Gyarados and Tyranitar with its own Thunderbolt (which in itself is a High 7-A feat), and in the Sun and Moon series, compete with 4-B's like Tapu Koko and Silvally. 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt should be 4-B because in the two times it was used, they both overwhelmed 4-B opponents (Tapu Koko and Nihilego-fused Lusamine). Unlike other series where Pikachu is sorta reset, Sun and Moon and Pokemon 2019 don't do much of a reset on Ash's Pikachu so there aren't really much of these lower level feats that would downgrade Pikachu's scaling.

 

[CloverDragon03]

That's why we're saying he would be only High 7-A on his Sun & Moon key, because 4-B is too much.

10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt has always been depicted as VASTLY stronger than Pikachu's normal power output, even with Z-Moves. It would definitely be 4-B. There's nothing that proves it shouldn't be 4-B

 

[Elizhaa]

That's why we're saying he would be only High 7-A on his Sun & Moon key, because 4-B is too much.

Yeah, 4-B is way to inconsistent and Outlierish for the new proposed key.

The best I could agree with the new "Sun & Moon Series onwards" key is:

• At least High 7-A, likely higher. Higher with Z-Moves, Gigantamax, or when absorbing electricity.

I think the key would look better tlike this:

• Key: Original Series - XY Series | Blue Orb absorbed | Sun & Moon Series onwards

This option fit the timeline better since "Blue Orb absorbed"'s key doesn't have "Sun & Moon Series onwards"'s abilities so I think my option is less confusing when indexting the abilities.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I disagree with 4-B being an inconsistent key. As stated before, 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt has always been depicted as many times stronger than Pikachu itself and there's nothing that goes against this.

 

[Ionliosite]

Only 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt, a massively amped Z-Move, has been consistently shown as 4-B, so I really don't see the problem with it and only it being said tier.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Only 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt, a massively amped Z-Move, has been consistently shown as 4-B, so I really don't see the problem with it and only it being said tier.

That's what I'm saying. Pikachu itself definitely isn't 4-B, but 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt would be

 

[Ionliosite]

I was talking to @Elizhaa, not you @DragonGamer. I do agree with your point nevertheless.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Oh sorry, my bad

 

[Eminiteable]

4-B with 10 million volt thunderbolt is fine, it's not an outlier and the only reason people would think such is likely rooted in bias.

 

[Ionliosite]

I wouldn't say "rooted in bias" as much as rooted on how filled with outliers this is verse is.

 

[Eminiteable]

Like you mentioned the 10 million volt has consistently been used in 4-Bs, although bias is the wrong word to use.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Yeah, I can understand why it would be thought of as an outlier since Pokemon has a ton of outliers. However, this is not one of those outliers.

 

[Elizhaa]

Only 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt, a massively amped Z-Move, has been consistently shown as 4-B, so I really don't see the problem with it and only it being said tier.

So, the move is consistent. From what I read and from my objective's point of view, I do have the feeling that 4-B for the move is just an outlier so I don't think I could agree on it. I asked other staffs to give their inputs on the proposed tier, to help out.

 

[GyroNutz]

Not sure why I was asked to comment in a general discussion thread, but I've said before that I'm fine with Ash's Pikachu scaling to stuff that should otherwise be above the standard final evolution tier, given that 7-A is a pretty arbitrary tier for it anyway. Although I do feel that rating just its Z-move as 4-B while Pikachu stays as High/7-A is hiding the outlier, as Pikachu also has feats of harming 4-Bs with no Z-moves.

 

[Ionliosite]

Yeah, but Pikachu harming 4-Bs without it is infinitely more incosistent than doing it with it.

 

[Starter_Pack]

Now, I've been doing a bit of deep diving, and now I can say that Pikachu with its Z-Move seems pretty okay for me to be placed at 4-B. And the reason why I'm giving this the go-ahead is simple. Not only does Pikachu have a direct battle against one of the Tapus, this being Tapu Koko at the end of the S/M series, but he also helped Dia and Zeraora fight against a Guzzlord in an alternate version of Alola. Now, to be fair, Zeraora did a lot of the heay lifting, and they only managed to beat it finally when their version of Tapu Koko entered the ring. (And if you think about it, they didn't really beat it, just push it out of their world through the Ultra Wormhole.) But, since both Ash and Dia used Gigavolt Havoc to land the finishing blow, meaning that Pikachu does have a supporting feat for this.

So, yeah, I'll put my coin in the agree slot, and see where it goes from there.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Well as long as it's just the Z-move and that it doesn't scale to Pikachus individual stats, there shouldnt be any issue. We do the same with things like Kaguya's ETSB being 4-C and whatnot. If it doesnt scale to your own stats, it can't be considered an outlier.

In all honesty, this moreso points to Z-moves in general being considered 4-B. Which I wouldnt be opposed to seeing as they're powers granted by Necrozma.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

It should be noted that Ash and Kukui later blow away a Guzzlord via a combined Gigavolt Havoc. This was done with Pikachu and Naganadel, but Naganadel later struggled against Kukui's Lucario and lost against Tapu Koko whereas Pikachu held up against Tapu Koko and managed to defeat it.

10,000,000 Volts > Guardian of Alola >> Gigavolt Havoc >> Tapu Koko ~ Pikachu > Naganadel

Pikachu's Gigavolt Havoc should be considered 4-B, with its 10,000,000 Volts being far stronger.

 

[GyroNutz]

Yeah, but Pikachu harming 4-Bs without it is infinitely more incosistent than doing it with it.

Hence why I said it's "hiding the outlier".

 

[Ionliosite]

Hence why I said it's "hiding the outlier".

It's not really an outlier for the Z-Moves tho, given they come from a 4-B source and harm 4-Bs consistently, unlike Pikachu himself, who has much more feats on an end way lower than 4-B despite fighting 4-Bs himself.

 

[CloverDragon03]

So are we okay with these changes? Because I can make the adjustments

(Also how would Pikachu's speed be for SM series onwards? Would it still be at least Relativistic+ or be Massively FTL+ for keeping up with Tapu Koko and Guzzlord?)

Edit: Same goes for durability. Would it change because of this or be Large Mountain level, likely higher?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I disagree with giving Pikachu MFTL+ speed. AP is one thing, but..

 

[CloverDragon03]

Yeah, I agree with you on that. I just wanna be sure lol

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Pikachu's durability should also scale to High 7-A. It can endure multiple blows from Leon's Charizard, who is capable of overpowering Pikachu's Thunderbolt.

 

[Arceus0x]

finally this argument is ending. Also, please upgrade ash to 4-B already, he has a melmetal

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm still not sure on 4-B, but would like more staff input first.

 

[CloverDragon03]

4-B should be fine since it's only for that Z-Move (possibly for Gigavolt Havoc for contributing to Guzzlord's defeat but mainly 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt)

 

[CryoTheMayo]

tbh I feel as if Naganadel should also be 4-B, its justifications for being 7-A seems shaky at best. Regardless, 4-B Z-Moves is fine.

I'm pretty sure Gigantamax is still being debated, but I could picture Gigantamax Pikachu ending up 4-B due to Eternatus influence, but we'll see.

 

[Theformofacast]

Why is Melmetal 4-B? Scaling from the battle with Silvally in the anime?

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Yes, which brings into question why Ash isn't 4-B.

 

[Theformofacast]

I think that rating for Melmetal is wrong because we're not scaling any Soon and Moon Ash's Pokémon to 4-B for the same reason (being comparable to Gladion's Silvally, Tapu Koko and other Pokémon on that level)

 

[CloverDragon03]

As of now, I'm only concerned with this current idea for a buff. Anything else could probably be discussed at a later date

 

[CloverDragon03]

So what else needs to be discussed? I think now it's just a matter of coming to an agreement

 

[Ionliosite]

I think only 4-B Z-Moves for Pikachu, because everything elese has been fully agreed with. Is there anyone who has any problems with it? If yes, why?

 

[CloverDragon03]

The Z-Moves are a bit tricky. 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt is a definite 4-B, while Gigavolt Havoc is up in the air because of the feat against Guzzlord while other Z-Moves... really don't have anything to show for being 4-B