Ash's Pikachu Power Scaling

[CloverDragon03]

Also, Korrina might not be a top tier trainer, but Misty has traveled with Ash for 2 regions and has gotten even stronger since then, being able to contend with Sun/Moon Ash, who is even stronger than his XY counterpart. I think she qualifies as a top-tier trainer.

 

[Monkey_Dunno]

^ Misty's skill remained linear for the most during her time with Ash. Also her Gyarados wasn't even with her until she became a Gym Leader and only had to fights against fodders so far, so I disagree.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I would agree, but the fact that her Gyarados was able to match Ash's Pikachu, which in Sun/Moon is agreed on to be stronger than XYZ Ash's Pikachu, makes me think otherwise.

 

[Monkey_Dunno]

A lot of Pokémon so far fought on equal grounds with Sun & Moon Pikachu. That's why one should remain careful with the whole Pikachu scaling. He might be that strong, but he's not a viable chain for scaling off other characters on it's own as it would inevitable end up with a total mess.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Not really. From the SM series onwards, the scaling has been more consistent. Stronger opponents like Misty, the Kahunas, rivals, etc. have given Pikachu a challenge while others... Pikachu has dominated over rather easily.

 

[Monkey_Dunno]

More consistent doesn't equals outright consistent. Pikachu hasn't outright "dominated" every Pokémon below a Kahuna (Which isn't the same as having the upper hand).

 

[CloverDragon03]

Weaker Pokemon have usually been dealt with by another of Ash's Pokemon or defeated pretty easily by Ash's Pikachu, such as in the Battle Royal where Ash's Pikachu defeated many fully-evolved Pokemon, such as Gyarados, Skarmory, and Clawitzer.

 

[Ionliosite]

Tbf, we currently rate Pikachu as 7-A due to fighting tons of fully evolved Pokémon despite still having troubles and being defeated by non-fully evolved ones. SM pretty explicity says Pikachu has gotten much stronger than he was in the past, so that's why High 7-A Pikachu is something that would make sense.

 

[Monkey_Dunno]

Ash's Pikachu has indeed defeated fully-evolved Pokémon, and has also struggle against Lillie's Butler's Oricorio, bested by a wild Grubbin and almost fulminated by an attack from Jessie's Mimikyu that Ash's Rowlet could held back. As I said, his scaling chain it's messed up.

 

[Monkey_Dunno]

I don't particularly disagree with Ash's Pikachu being High 7-A or whatever, I just think him scaling other to that rating from him isn't safe at all.

 

[CloverDragon03]

With Lillie's butler, Lillie was commanding Pikachu, not Ash, and when she got her act together, Pikachu quickly won.

With Grubbin, Pikachu was distracted by trying to avoid Lillie because well, she was afraid of touching Pokemon. Pikachu was never even defeated, Grubbin simply got a good shot that didn't even KO Pikachu and then escaped, and like I said before, that Grubbin really won due to Pikachu being distracted with trying to avoid Lillie.

Also, Sun and Moon has shown later on, Pikachu has been able to win against Mimikyu consistently ever since about episode 30 or so, with the only other instance of it not winning being because time ran out (the Battle Royal).


The argument here isn't whether Pikachu is High 7-A, since that's been agreed on, it's whether it's High 7-A or High 7-A+

 

[CloverDragon03]

Persoanlly, I think Pikachu should get High 7-A+ for 2 reasons:

1. Its feat against Gyarados and Tyranitar's combined Hyper Beam wasn't just simply overpowering it, but it completely vaporized the attack.

2. It's been shown to defeat well-trained Megas, which are already accepted as High 7-A+

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I don't mind High 7-A scaling.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Alright, but the issue still remains:

High 7-A or High 7-A+?

 

[GyroNutz]

"At least High 7-A" seems fine. If there's a way of scaling to Pikachu to Ash Greninja who has High 7-A+ feats, or top tier megas, I'd agree with High 7-A+. Scaling to Kahuna's Z moves would work if they were treated like the elite four as they are in the games when Ash fought them.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I guess that works for now.

 

[GyroNutz]

On a sidenote, Ash Greninja and Alain's Charizard should be rated as High 7-A+. Mega Charizard fought Steven's megagross and Siebold's mega blastoise, and Ash Greninja fought Diantha's mega gardevoir.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Would that fall under Ash and Alain's profiles?

 

[GyroNutz]

Yeah

 

[GyroNutz]

I think we should remove the Ash-Greninja key from Greninja's profile and add it to Ash's profile. Pretty sure that was brought up ages ago too

 

[CloverDragon03]

I don't know about that one, since Ash-Greninja is usable in-game, which is probably why it was added in the first place.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

I don't know about that one, since Ash-Greninja is usable in-game, which is probably why it was added in the first place.

Isn't that Greninja very heavily implied to be Ash's Greninja? The letter that came with it even shows what looks like Ash with Pikachu. Not to mention, it's not a random Greninja it's a gift Greninja. In-fact, looking it up, the Gift Greninja is actually listed as having Ash as its OT.

The most you can say is that other trainers may be able to trigger Bond Evolution with Ash's Greninja, not that any other Greninja has Bond Evolution. The only other Greninja like it is Y's Greninja, Croaky, but I don't know the specifics of it having the ability.

Overall Bond Evolution should be limited to Ash's Greninja and Croaky.

 

[CloverDragon03]

The most you can say is that other trainers may be able to trigger Bond Evolution with Ash's Greninja, not that any other Greninja has Bond Evolution. The only other Greninja like it is Y's Greninja, Croaky, but I don't know the specifics of it having the ability.

I don't know about that one. The form itself has been stated to be something that shows up every thousand years or something like that, so that implies that other Greninja are capable of doing it, it's just rare.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Yes, but the only Greninja that can have it in the games (to my knowledge) is specifically stated to be Ash's. There is one in the manga that supposedly has it and one from a thousand years ago, but that's only three across universes, two in the same universe with a thousand year gap.

Unless there is some sort of precedent for more than one Greninja at a time, that isn't Ash's, to have Battle Bond I don't think the Greninja species should just have it.

Hell, Battle Bond relies predominately on the trainer. A wild Greninja shouldn't be able to transform without that bond available. So pairing it with the only trainer that has actually used it, owns it and is even named after only makes sense.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Hell, Battle Bond relies predominately on the trainer. A wild Greninja shouldn't be able to transform without that bond available. So pairing it with the only trainer that has actually used it, owns it and is even named after only makes sense.

Except for the Village Hero Greninja that was in the Ash-Greninja form on its own

 

[CryoTheMayo]

All that's stated about that Greninja is that it fought to protect the village. Considering it's called 'Bond Phenomenon' and it's explicitly triggered by the trainer and pokemon synchronising via trust I'm pretty sure it's intended to be trainer-related. Ash even feels the pain of it and sees through the PoV of Greninja.

Claiming wild Greninja can trigger it w/o a Bond or that any pokemon can do it completely contradicts the anime, which is the source of the evolution and the source of everything we know about it.

Fact of the matter is: It requires trainer and pokemon and it requires that the pokemon has the ability. Claiming every Greninja can do it, or that a wild Greninja can do it w/o a trainer has severely lacking evidence.

As such, only trainers with Greninjas with the ability, and capability, should be listed as having it. Not just the Greninja species by itself.

Anyways, in other news: Pikachu used an Electroweb on itself as an electric barrier in the latest episode. Would that count as a form of barrier creation?

 

[Chianli]

dude anime and game are vastly different remember

 

[Ionliosite]

dude anime and game are vastly different remember

I mean, Ash-Greninja is in the game, whose original trainer is Ash...

 

[CloverDragon03]

Yeah, there are many implications that it's Ash's Greninja (the OT, the letter, and even the move set when you first get it)

 

[GyroNutz]

Anyways, in other news: Pikachu used an Electroweb on itself as an electric barrier in the latest episode. Would that count as a form of barrier creation?

I suppose so

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Alright, is it fine if I just add that to Pikachu's page?

 

[Ionliosite]

Yeah, can this be applied to Pikachu's profile already? I think everyone agrees with "At least High 7-A, higher with Z-Moves, Gigantamax and when absorbing electricity, 4-B with 10,000,000 Volts Thunderbolt" at this point.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

I'm really late but what's the justification for 4-B?

 

[Starter_Pack]

Beating Tapu Koko with Pikachu's 10,000,000 Volts Thunderbolt Z-Move. This would only apply to that particular Z-Move, instead of his other Z-Moves such as Gigavolt Havoc.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Mfw Pikachu beats Raiden and can legitimately harm Thor now.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Pikachu >>>> Raikou, Zapdos, Zeraora, Zekrom, Thundurus, Tapu Koko

I'm not even wrong. The only 4-Bs there are Zeraora (who Pikachu was depicted as comparable w/o Z-Moves and, thus, should be able to defeat with 10m Volts), Tapu Koko (who Pikachu defeated) and Zekrom (who is the only one feasibly capable of handling 10m Volts based on scaling)

Pikachu is the true Pokemon Thunder God.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Inb4 Pikachu ******* shrekts Eternatus and is on par with Zarude

 

[CloverDragon03]

Yeah, can this be applied to Pikachu's profile already? I think everyone agrees with "At least High 7-A, higher with Z-Moves, Gigantamax and when absorbing electricity, 4-B with 10,000,000 Volts Thunderbolt" at this point.

Yeah, the only question was High 7-A vs. High 7-A+

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Another question is...considering Pikachu is at least High 7-A, doesn't that mean Gigantamax Pikachu should be at least 6-C?

In-fact, a wild Gigantamax Snorlax completely ignored Pikachu's Thunderbolt, so did a wild Gigantamax Drednaw. Leon's Gigantamax Charizard and Lance's Gigantamax Gyarados should both also be much stronger than Pikachu.

Based on the above, shouldn't Gigantamax in-general be, at the very least, 6-C if baseline Pikachu is at least High 7-A?

 

[CloverDragon03]

You said the combined Hyper Beam was about 1.6 gigatons, which is how we got the at least High 7-A. Gigantamax is at least as strong as the boost from a Thick Club on Marowak, which is a 2x boost, giving Gigantamax Pikachu 3.2 gigatons, which would be High 7-A+

However, this is only theoretical, as it's also possible that the boost is considerably higher for Pikachu considering that Gigantamax Pikachu scales to other Gigantamaxes