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Ash's Pikachu Power Scaling

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Word of God can be contradicted, rejected and ignored if it isn't in-line with the rest of the franchise and is an outlier from everything else depicted.
 
Well, if you want to argue that Pikachu seriously scales to 4-B, along with many of the cast in the Alola anime...as well as claiming that the SM protagonist is 4-B for the majority of the game, sure. It's 'consistent'.

Not really sure how you can claim these species are all 7-A fully-evolved but then claim this 11 year-old scales above all of the other protagonists by such a ridiculous degree. You fight Type: Null for the first time on Route 5, along with a Zubat for crying out loud.

As far as I am aware, all of the scaling for the UBs, Island Guardians and Type: Null/Sivally stems from Necrozma.

The UBs all scale to 4-B due to causing Zygarde to come to Alola (which is terrible justification, considering Zygarde's entire interest is preserving the ecosystem. Their AP threat has no basis with just that). Solgaleo and Lunala are 4-B due to providing Necrozma its light, which is somewhat questionable at best. Island Guardians are 4-B due to fighting Solagelo and Lunala and Zygarde is 4-B due to fighting Necrozma in a singular manga.

In summary: Zygarde scales to Necrozma (in a single manga showing), the UBs scale to 4-B because 'Zygarde came to Alola due to them' (which makes zero sense, it has no implication on their AP), Type: Null/Sivally scales to the UBs, which have terrible scaling logic in the first place, and Tapus scale to 4-B due to Solgaleo/Lunala providing Necrozma with energy.

You can argue Zygarde, Necrozma, Solgaleo and Lunala reasonably scale to 4-B but the UB and Sivally scaling provided on their pages is weak at best. The only UB with any logical basis for 4-B, as far as I am aware, is Guzzlord for requiring multiple Tapus in the anime.

And even with all of the above provided, it's absurdist for Pikachu and Ash's entire team to leap from 7-A to 4-B in such a small timespan, the same can be said for pretty much every character in the manga, anime, games, etc.

Overall, the entirety of Necrozma's scaling is a ridiculous outlier across the franchise itself. Sivally and UBs definitely shouldn't be scaling to it in the first place.

Regardless, I'm not really interested in debating the topic any further. Claiming the scaling isn't blatantly contradictory relative to the rest of the entire franchise is, in itself, a bizarre claim considering how badly it mismanages the entire multiverse of the setting, all based on a single manga's scaling.
 
I'm totally not saying what you're implying. At no point have I supported such a blatant outlier such as 4-B Pikachu.

Also, "small timespan" is the single worst argument I've read. Naruto Uzumaki (Part II) went from 7-A to 5-C on a week. Akuto Sai from Low 7-C to 1-A in 3 days. Time is totally a non-factor.
 
You forgot the part where Naruto had his jesus powers triggered by Ninja Monk God. If you are going to claim it's reasonable for a trainer, at the near start of their journey, to defeat a 4-B with such low-level (2nd stage at most) pokemon, there would need to be an actual incentive for such a ridiculous power leap. I wouldn't know about Akuto.

Regardless, this thread concerns how Pikachu's power scaling should be managed. Not whether or not that power scaling is a reasonable leap or should even really be used in the greater scheme of the franchise.

_____________________________________________

In Episode 5 of PM2019, Pikachu's Thunderbolt doesn't even slightly effect Gigantamax Snorlax (who has feats of causing the entire landscape to shake and shift when it leaped upwards and fell down). This means Pikachu can effect Lugia with a Thunderbolt, but is unable to even slightly phase a Gigantamax Snorlax.

Right now, it seems Pikachu can phase 6-Bs like Lugia and can completely overpower High 7-A attacks like a combined Hyper Beam from Gyarados and Tyranitar. So At least High 7-A Pikachu is very reasonable to argue right now.

The issue would be scaling Pikachu's Z-Moves and its 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt.
 
Yeah, but in the anime and manga alike, Lugia pretty clearly flinched from the Thunderbolt. But this scaling makes sense because:

  • Due to Gigantamax Corviknight, Gigantamax is scaling to or above Lugia
  • Lugia is weak to Thunderbolts
  • Snorlax is a tanky pokemon that only takes neutral damage from Pikachu
So Pikachu's Thunderbolt has the AP to make an at least 6-B flinch, if they are weak to it, but can't make a tanky at least 6-B that takes normal damage flinch. We also know Pikachu can completely overpower a High 7-A attack.

I honestly think there is argument for Pikachu to be 6-C. based on its Thunderbolt flinching Lugia and it vaporising a mid-High 7-A Hyper Beam, but at least High 7-A is accurate enough for Pikachu right now.
 
Based on all this, my best idea would be to rank Pikachu as at least High 7-A, possibly 6-C, since Pikachu's Thunderbolt did cause Lugia to flinch as previous stated. Of course, there's also the issue with the Island Guardians, UBs, Silvally/Type: Null, Zeraora, and Melmetal, who I believe shouldn't be 4-B and should be dropped to 5-B (since that's what they originally were), but that's a discussion for another time.

Edit: Need I mention that Zygarde's scaling is even more out of wack now because 50% Zygarde is likely 4-B apparently due to sending Ultra Necrozma flying, despite being much weaker than it.
 
Considering Alain's Charizard tussles with 50% Zygarde but then can't do a damned thing to Primal Groudon and Kyogre...and then the anime has Ash scaling his pokemon to 4-B the literal generation after? Yeah.
 
DragonGamerZ913 said:
Island Guardians, UBs, Silvally/Type: Null, Zeraora, and Melmetal, who I believe shouldn't be 4-B and should be dropped to 5-B (since that's what they originally were)
Click to expand...
Based on what were they 5-B? Because the 4-B justification kinda weird anyways, I want to know the 5-B one.
 
The justification was always UBs>Tapus because it's direclty said they and the Kahunas fighting with them barely escaped with their lives or something like that, and the Tapus tangoed with the Cosmic Duo.
 
The world of the beasts, eh... Is that what that thing was that came to Poni Island? A beast? Tapu Fini and I tried to fight it, but it nearly did us both in. We did not stand a chance.
~ Hapu​
 
Out of curiosity, what is the context of the UBs causing them to flee? Was it a few? A bunch? Was it due to their power or dangerous abilities they were using to amp themselves or hinder them?
 
Singular. We see one when it confronts Hala. Hapu doesn't pluralize. Tapu just engages and it cuts back to Elio/Selene so the most likely option given Hapu's testimony is that each UB just beat the shit out of their respective Tapu.
 
Alright, fair enough on scaling them to Tapus then. Seeing as this all seems to stem from Solgaleo/Lunala scaling, that would be what should be discussed when arguing against the 4-B scaling, seeing as Necrozma being 4-B seems pretty conclusive and UBs scaling above Tapus seems consistent.

Granted...it states that it was all of the Tapus fighting Solgaleo/Lunala and they are capable of using Guardian of Alola so I somewhat question if that's how they managed to fight it off, but I am unaware of any lore indicating they used Guardian of Alola or if they had a human that could help them trigger it.

I am aware that Lunala, in the manga, blasted Necrozma alongside 100% Zygarde, but considering Zygarde already scales to Necrozma...I'm not sure how much power Lunala would have contributed to the blast.

Overall, the scaling seems like it is mostly based on Solgaleo/Lunala acting as a battery for Necrozma, is that a fair assessment of SM's top tiers scaling?
 
I don't know if anyone follows the Sword and Shield anime, but in the second episode pikachu was able to slightly faze Lugia, when other fully evolved pokemon couldn't even do anything it.
 
We gotta remember that Pikachu is a recurring main character and thus is his own unique entity due to being far stronger than all other members of his species. Let's not mention others like Charizard in an attempt for some weird and inconsistent mass upscaling.
 
Solgaleo and Lunala scaling to Ultra Necrozma isn't questionable at all.

In the games Necrozma needed the power of Solgaleo/Lunala, the light of Alola and light from Ultra Megalopolis to reach its Ultra form which was stated to have provided light throughout Ultra Space.

In the anime it's only the power of Solgaleo and Lunala that causes Necrozma to gain it's Ultra form.

In the manga Necrozma needed the power of Solgaleo, Lunala and Ultranecrozium Z to gain it's Ultra form. Also the manga says Ultra Necrozma is "far superior" to the original Necrozma which is stated to have provided light to all of Ultra Space. Solgaelo took a hit from Ulta Necrozma. Then later Solgaleo, Lunala and Complete Zygarde are able toknock it out after it was weakend from fighting Zygarde.

So in all three versions at least one of the legendaries is needed and the other sources of energy aren't really quantifable as far as I can tell. So most of the feat of giving the power nessesary must come from them.

The Ultra Beasts, Tapus and Type: Null/Silvally also should somewhat scale to Solgaleo and Lunala.

In the games Solgaleo/Lunala attack Fused Lusamine and she gets back up before defusing. Also the Ultra Beasts were a big enough threat for the Tapu's to fight them and in Sun/Moon your hired by the International Police to catch/kill them which implies the Tapus couldn't kill/defeat them . Which is backed up by the quote from Hapu that The real cal howard posted. The Tapus fought against Solgaleo or Lunala in the past and depending on the story they either lost or tied. In USUM their is a secret piece of paper that says the Tapus with a trainer fought Dusk Mane/Dawn Wings Necrozma using Z-moves and wo. Gladion also says Type: Null was born to fight Ultra Beasts .

In the manga Fused Lusamine with a bunch of Ultra Beasts fought and took an attack from Dawn Wings Necrozma who already absorbed the power of Solgaleo. Stakataka temporarlily held down Necrozma who had absorbed Solgaleo and Lunala's power. Also Gladion originally planned to get the help of the Tapus to defeat the Ultra Beasts but they were stronger than he expected. By this point Gladion has fought and defeated several Ultra Beasts with Type: Null and Silvally who he says were designed to fight and control the Ultra Beasts. Tapu Bulu easily blew away a Balcephalon, Tapu Fini temoporarily fought a Buzzwole and all the the Tapus fought Solgaleo and Lunala at the same time in the past.

Personally I think the feats for 10% Zygarde & it's cells are a bit shakier sense their just aren't as many but I'll put them here anyway. Zygarde Cells took a hit from Lunala, 10% scared off a group of Nihilego and it caught a Poipole who shortly afterward defeated it.

As for Pikachu I think At least High 7-A is reasonable (for phasing Lugia and overpowering Gyarados and Tyranitar) and should be 4-B with Z-Moves (overpowered Tapu Koko's Guardian of Alola with 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt and if I remember correctly it defeated Fused Lusamine with Gigavolt Havoc).
 
Ionliosite said:
DragonGamerZ913 said:
Island Guardians, UBs, Silvally/Type: Null, Zeraora, and Melmetal, who I believe shouldn't be 4-B and should be dropped to 5-B (since that's what they originally were)
Click to expand...
Based on what were they 5-B? Because the 4-B justification kinda weird anyways, I want to know the 5-B one.
Click to expand...
I don't have the exact justification for 5-B, I just know that that's what Zeraora apparently used to be before the whole "world threatening thing," and since Zeraora had scaled to the Tapus and UBs, he was bumped to 4-B, so based on that, it's easy to tell that the Tapus, UBs, Zeraora, Silvally/Type: Null, and Melmetal would've used to be 5-B.
 
Cmuell015 said:
Solgaleo and Lunala scaling to Ultra Necrozma isn't questionable at all.
In the games Necrozma needed the power of Solgaleo/Lunala, the light of Alola and light from Ultra Megalopolis to reach its Ultra form which was stated to have provided light throughout Ultra Space.

In the anime it's only the power of Solgaleo and Lunala that causes Necrozma to gain it's Ultra form.

In the manga Necrozma needed the power of Solgaleo, Lunala and Ultranecrozium Z to gain it's Ultra form. Also the manga says Ultra Necrozma is "far superior" to the original Necrozma which is stated to have provided light to all of Ultra Space. Solgaelo took a hit from Ulta Necrozma. Then later Solgaleo, Lunala and Complete Zygarde are able toknock it out after it was weakend from fighting Zygarde.

So in all three versions at least one of the legendaries is needed and the other sources of energy aren't really quantifable as far as I can tell. So most of the feat of giving the power nessesary must come from them.

The Ultra Beasts, Tapus and Type: Null/Silvally also should somewhat scale to Solgaleo and Lunala.

In the games Solgaleo/Lunala attack Fused Lusamine and she gets back up before defusing. Also the Ultra Beasts were a big enough threat for the Tapu's to fight them and in Sun/Moon your hired by the International Police to catch/kill them which implies the Tapus couldn't kill/defeat them . Which is backed up by the quote from Hapu that The real cal howard posted. The Tapus fought against Solgaleo or Lunala in the past and depending on the story they either lost or tied. In USUM their is a secret piece of paper that says the Tapus with a trainer fought Dusk Mane/Dawn Wings Necrozma using Z-moves and wo. Gladion also says Type: Null was born to fight Ultra Beasts .

In the manga Fused Lusamine with a bunch of Ultra Beasts fought and took an attack from Dawn Wings Necrozma who already absorbed the power of Solgaleo. Stakataka temporarlily held down Necrozma who had absorbed Solgaleo and Lunala's power. Also Gladion originally planned to get the help of the Tapus to defeat the Ultra Beasts but they were stronger than he expected. By this point Gladion has fought and defeated several Ultra Beasts with Type: Null and Silvally who he says were designed to fight and control the Ultra Beasts. Tapu Bulu easily blew away a Balcephalon, Tapu Fini temoporarily fought a Buzzwole and all the the Tapus fought Solgaleo and Lunala at the same time in the past.

Personally I think the feats for 10% Zygarde & it's cells are a bit shakier sense their just aren't as many but I'll put them here anyway. Zygarde Cells took a hit from Lunala, 10% scared off a group of Nihilego and it caught a Poipole who shortly afterward defeated it.

As for Pikachu I think At least High 7-A is reasonable (for phasing Lugia and overpowering Gyarados and Tyranitar) and should be 4-B with Z-Moves (overpowered Tapu Koko's Guardian of Alola with 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt and if I remember correctly it defeated Fused Lusamine with Gigavolt Havoc).
Click to expand...
This all makes sense, though I still believe that the UBs shouldn't be 4-B (should go back to being 5-B), so that would make Pikachu's Z-Moves 5-B if that were to happen, but this is all still correct. Also, he defeated Fused Lusamine with 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt, not Gigavolt Havoc.
 
Woah, chill on the quoting there. That's a big text wall to repeat.

As for the justification, yeah it seems fine. I said 'somewhat questionable' by mistake. I can't really contradict Solgaleo and Lunala providing energy to Necrozma.

I did read up a bit on Island Guardian lore though, and it seems the Tapus actually DID have the aid of a human and Z-Moves against Necrozma. It also claims on Bulbapedia that Solgaleo/Lunala are said to have easily defeated the guardians and gave them Tapunium Z for facing them in battle. Assuming this is accurate, it seems the game scaling for Tapus to Solgaleo/Lunala may be iffy (and as result, UBs).

I don't know how the manga handles Tapu scaling, but I know in the anime that Tapu Koko manages to intercept and hold off base Necrozma physically, so that could be clear justification for 4-B Tapu scaling, assuming it isn't just an outlier in the anime.
 
After taking a look, I think the difference in story (either they tied or lost) makes Tapu scaling to Solgaleo/Lunala questionable, so the best argument for their scaling would be Lusamine and the UBs fighting Dusk Wings Necrozma albeit the Tapus seem to scale below UBs but not terribly so. I think the overall best claim for the Tapus scaling to 4-B would be Anime Tapu Koko intercepting and grabbing Necrozma.

Ultra Necrozma > Dawn Wings/Dusk Mane Necrozma > Solgaleo/Lunala >/= Ultra Beasts > Tapu Koko >/= Necrozma(?) Seems to be the scaling I'm seeing here right now.
 
I like how not a single person in this thread took the actual time to answer the OP's question before things started to unravel to a point that didn't need to happen.

Pikachu's High 6-A tiering comes it being empowered by the blue orb to control Groudon and to counter attacks from Kygore. Pikachu on it's own doesn't scale to High 6-A at all, only through absorbing the blue orb.
 
Peter "Quicksilver" Maximoff said:
My mistake. But does it matter? No it doesn't. It's still a continuation from the previous region/series.
Click to expand...
It doesn't matter, but still, the fact you said there was a Sword & Shield is wrong, since that series explicity is named simply "Pocket Monsters", making it share title with the original seires had.

And of course it's a continuation from the previous series, what else would it be?
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
I like how not a single person in this thread took the actual time to answer the OP's question before things started to unravel to a point that didn't need to happen.
Pikachu's High 6-A tiering comes it being empowered by the blue orb to control Groudon and to counter attacks from Kygore. Pikachu on it's own doesn't scale to High 6-A at all, only through absorbing the blue orb.
Click to expand...
My mistake on that one. I forgot that the High 6-A tiering was from Pikachu being empowered by the Blue Orb. In that case, I'm referring to him being at only "At least 7-A"
 
@Ionliosite It can be referred to as the Pokmeon Sword and Shield anime or as Pokemon 2019, it really doesn't matter.
 
DragonGamerZ913 said:
It can be referred to as the Pokmeon Sword and Shield anime
Click to expand...
It never has been refered by that name tho. Only simply "Pocket Monsters". It's even just that on the logo.
 
There's no reason for a discussion about a title to be dragged out like this. People refer to it as such because it's in line with the Sword and Shield games. Enough title discussion.
 
DragonGamerZ913 said:
People refer to it as such because it's in line with the Sword and Shield games.
Click to expand...
Yeah, but it isn't called like that. So I can let this topic die knowing I'm the one who's right.
 
Saying you can "let this topic die knowing I'm the one who's right" is really childish. You really didn't need to let the topic drag on just to make a point of being right, but I digress.

Anyway, it seems we've come to an agreement on Ash's Pikachu being at least High 7-A (idk about this, but I'm considering that there should be a "possibly 6-C" added in, given that he has been shown to cause Lugia, who is at least 6-B, to flinch from his Thunderbolt), but what about with Z-Moves? Since Tapu Koko's Guardian of Alola was overpowered by Pikachu's 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt, Fused Lusamine was defeated with the same move, and his Gigavolt Havoc, together with Zeraora's, forced Guzzlord back through an Ultra Wormhole, meaning that this can't be considered an outlier due to Pikachu's Z-Moves scaling consistently to characters of this strength.
 
Just because somethings done a lot doesn't mean its not an outlier.

For Pikachu's Z-Moves to be considered 4-B, you would have to make an argument for Z-moves in general being 4-B. And we also don't accept that as far as im aware.
 
Z-Moves in general wouldn't be 4-B. It depends on the Z-Move used and the Pokemon using it. Yes, Pikachu's Z-Moves have defeated 4-B characters, but that's also because of it building on Pikachu's own strength (not to mention that 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt is one of the most powerful Z-Moves there is), whereas Lillie's Vulpix barely harmed Gladion's Umbreon with its own Z-Move. That kind of argument simply can't be made.
 
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