Ash's Pikachu Power Scaling

[CryoTheMayo]

while other Z-Moves... really don't have anything to show for being 4-B

The Kahunas were able to blow away Guzzlord with a combined Z-Move, and Ash's Alola class + Hau + Gladion were able to blow away another Guzzlord with a combined Z-Move. Those feats should be at least High 4-C individually. It depends on how far into 4-B Guzzlord is.

It's also implied that Ash's Naganadel was a huge help against Guzzlord, so it would also be 4-B via Gigavolt Havoc.

As for the others, I'm afraid I didn't watch the series too closely. I believe Ash's Lycanroc may have some 4-B scaling against a Tapu and UBs via Z-Moves, though.

 

[Dragopentling]

What are the ultra beasts' AP in comparison with base Necrozma?

 

[CloverDragon03]

I feel like the scaling with other Z-Moves is too inconsistent to place an actual number on. High 4-C sounds good on paper, but how that holds up, I'm not sure

 

[CloverDragon03]

It's also implied that Ash's Naganadel was a huge help against Guzzlord, so it would also be 4-B via Gigavolt Havoc.

Frankly, I'm surprised Naganadel isn't 4-B

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Frankly, I'm surprised Naganadel isn't 4-B

Same.

On the topic of scaling combined Z-Moves, the Kahunas might be comparable but there are clear powergaps among Ash's friends. It goes something like:

Ash (Post-Kukui) > Ash (Pre-Kukui) = Gladion > Kiawe ~ Hau > Sophocles ~ Lana >> Lillie >> Mallow

Z-Moves are derived from Necrozma's power, but I imagine the base power of the pokemon (and trainer) should also factor into how powerful the Z-Move is. So Gladion, Kiawe and Hau would offer far more power into the combined Z-Move than the rest of the class.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I disagree on Lillie being stronger than Mallow. Unless I'm not remembering correctly, Mallow put up a good fight against Lana while Lillie was handily defeated by Gladion

 

[CryoTheMayo]

There is a massive gap between Lana and Gladion. Lana was absolutely destroyed by Guzma, whereas each of Ash's pokemon were capable of holding their own against Guzma's Golisopod. Gladion and Ash are about equal. To add further, Mallow had a type advantage against Lana and still lost pretty handidly, To contrast, Gladion used his Umbreon against Lillie's Vulpix and, while her Vulpix was far weaker, she utilised strategy quite well.

Consider that Guzma's Golisopod sliced through Lana's Z-Move, which matched Mallow's Z-Move, with extreme ease and then consider that Ash's Torracat and Pikachu could both hold up against his Golisopod. Lillie's Vulpix struggling to damage Gladion's Umbreon suddenly isn't bad relative to Lana, and especially relative to Mallow.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I take every word back then lol

Anyway, to be honest, I really just want to get this discussion finished since it's gone on for a really long time with the only issue being how we handle Z-Moves

 

[GyroNutz]

Frankly, I'm surprised Naganadel isn't 4-B

It 100% should be

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Frankly, I'm surprised Naganadel isn't 4-B

It 100% should be

Honestly, this. There's really no reason why Naganadel shouldn't be a 4-B especially when it's an Ultra Beast itself.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

It 100% should be
Honestly, this. There's really no reason why Naganadel shouldn't be a 4-B especially when it's an Ultra Beast itself.

Yeah, what's up with that?

 

[CryoTheMayo]

As far as I can tell, the logic has to do with it being used pretty early in the game, and being considered a 'starter pokemon' but, by that logic, Type: Null shouldn't be 4-B due to Gladion using it early game. Hell, the dex entry about Poipole being a starter even says it's due to being 'well-liked' rather than anything to do with power.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I think so far, we can at least agree on bumping Naganadel to 4-B. Plus, it's fought Tapu Koko before

 

[Starter_Pack]

Naganadel should definitely be 4-B, I can agree to that.

 

[CloverDragon03]

So since we're in agreement on that, is it fine to make that change?

And we still need to discuss how we're going to handle Pikachu's Z-Moves since that's really the last thing we need to discuss before changing Pikachu's profile

 

[Ionliosite]

Yeah, 4-B Naganadel is also agreed on.

Personally, I think it should be "higher with Gigavolt Havoc, 4-B with 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt", because Gigavolt Havoc isn't as consistently 4-B as the other Z-Move.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I think just "higher with Z-Moves, 4-B with 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt" is fine, so yeah, basically what you said, just generalized to all of Pikachu's Z-Moves besides 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

So Pikachu is becoming at least High 7-A, Higher with Z-Moves or when absorbing electricity, 4-B with 10,000,000 Volts and Naganadel will be upgraded to 4-B? Seems fine to me.

Now just wait for when Gigantamax is properly scaled. I don't think its power has been properly estimated yet right?

 

[CloverDragon03]

I was thinking simply higher with Gigantamax because of its ambiguity. This is obviously subject to change, but I think it works for now

Edit: Also, I think we agreed on a likely higher rating as well after the at least High 7-A for Pikachu's higher-end feats such as making Lugia flinch

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Gigantamax being 'higher' for now is sensible. Pikachu being 'at least High 7-A' or 'High 7-A, likely higher' are both fine by me.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I think we're practically all settled then, we just need to know if this is approved

 

[CloverDragon03]

Also, I forgot. Did we agree on Pikachu being high-end High 7-A due to its feat of overpowering a combined Hyper Beam from Gyarados and Tyranitar?

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Yes, I believe that is the reason for it.

Charizard is 790.31 Megatons with Flamethrower. Gyarados and Tyranitar should be at least similar in AP, and Hyper Beam is an extremely powerful move. Their combined Hyper Beam is at least 1,580.2 Megatons, or 1.5802 Gigatons. High 7-A is a range of 1-4.3 Gigatons.

Considering Hyper Beam likely > Flamethrower, and Pikachu overpowered the Hyper Beam, that should comfortably put Pikachu at mid High 7-A.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Not to mention that Pikachu didn't just overpower it, he completely vaporized it. So it's more of a High 7-A+?

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Not to mention that Pikachu didn't just overpower it, he completely vaporized it. So it's more of a High 7-A+?

Perhaps. I think it's agreed on at least High 7-A due to Pikachu consistently scaling above that in Sun & Moon, either way.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Yeah, we agreed on at least High 7-A, likely higher (since Pikachu has feats that could suggest a higher tier), my question now is if it's High 7-A or High 7-A+

 

[Theformofacast]

I think "at least High 7-A" without "+" is fine. Making Lugia flinch could also be considered for this rating.

 

[CloverDragon03]

The Lugia feat could definitely be used for the "likely higher" portion.

Funny how there's this much of a debate over a + sign

 

[GyroNutz]

I think that line of logic is not enough for a quantifiable "High 7-A+". It doesn't matter much anyway, since either way Pikachu is >> 1.5802 gigatons.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Pikachu gets the plus. All top tier trainers have pluses.

 

[GyroNutz]

That's for top tier trainers' Mega Pokemon.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Pretty sure we put Ash's Pikachu on a mega level.

Also like...whatever happened to his teraton feat?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Teraton feat?

Was that the one from I Choose You?

Edit: Also, Pikachu has shown to be powerful enough to fight Mega Pokemon, even in the XY series, and it's stronger than back then.

 

[GyroNutz]

There's a difference between mega level and champion-tier mega level though.

The one where he dispersed Ho-Oh's clouds? Pretty sure that's a different Pikachu that did that, from an alternate timeline.

 

[CloverDragon03]

What is the AP of Mega Pokemon anyway?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Large Mountain level. Large Mountain level+ while trained.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I meant like, in terms of tons of TNT, but that works too because well, Pikachu has fought trained Mega Pokemon before, and has gotten even stronger since then.

XY Pikachu beat Korrina's Mega Lucario and SM Pikachu beat Misty's Mega Gyarados, not to mention defeating Guzma's Golisopod, who is comparable to his Scizor, which absolutely destroyed Ilima's Mega Kangaskhan

 

[GyroNutz]

I doubt Misty or Korrina count as top tier trainers, given their status as early-ish gym leaders. Maybe if Pikachu scaled to Ash Greninja somehow, there'd be a scaling chain given that Ash Greninja was overpowering Diantha's Mega Gardevoir.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Didn't he beat a League level Mega Tyranitar by his lonesome? And tank Kahuna level Z Moves?

 

[CloverDragon03]

I'm honestly surprised that it isn't agreed on that SM Pikachu scales to Ash-Greninja.

And yes, Pikachu has taken Kahuna level Z-Moves. Don't remember anything about a league level Mega Tyranitar though. When was this?