Arifureta Shokugyou de Sekai Saikyou Discussion Thread 2

[Community_Gamer]

Eto shin's puppets

and

When is this even taking place?

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Uhhh wtf is this even? Like I get it's a Treasure Trove with an endless amount of dimensions stored inside the grains of sand within it. But who made it? And who can manipulate the entire thing? It seems interesting but nobody scales.

Haven't you read the short story "Eternal artifact" ?
It's on Bakapervert Arifureta page.

Eto Shin, a sentient artifact created by an advanced civilization to escape Ehit. It's a single mind that control all those pocket dimension.

It's similar to the spirit whale.

Well if there's a Moon then you just need to figure out the roche limit.

Unknow

I don't think that necessarily implied this statement alone. At least this doesn't mean it has its own space-time.

Well, the space was stated to be isolated from the world.

「The outer world is the territory of god.」

「Tsu, that’s……」

「I am a depository of treasure. The concealed utopia. An artificial sacred precincts that is isolated from the outside world to elude that person’s eyes. A hidden treasure to protect the citizens in the kingdom that they wished for.」

「In other words thy art……a hideout to escape from god Ehito?」

「Affirmative.」Eternal Artifact Ch 3

It could be similar to Ehit's.


Why are you surprise about this ?

Didn't Ehit's holy precinct consist of multiple separate pocket dimension(zombie city, floating islands, infinite library, rainbow world, white world...) and other dimensions that we didn't get to see. All of them were connected by doors that Hajime used to reach Ehit.

When is this even taking place?

After S1, when they entered the desert.

 

[Community_Gamer]

Haven't you read the short story "Eternal artifact" ?
It's on Bakapervert Arifureta page.

No, hence why I asked.

Eto Shin, a sentient artifact created by an advanced civilization to escape Ehit. It's a single mind that control all those pocket dimension.

It's similar to the spirit whale.

Ahh I see. Wait, an advanced civilization from where? Tortus? Ehit's world?

Well, the space was stated to be isolated from the world.

It could be similar to Ehit's.

I suppose so.

Why are you surprise about this ?

Didn't Ehit's holy precinct consist of multiple separate pocket dimension(zombie city, floating islands, infinite library, rainbow world, white world...) and other dimensions that we didn't get to see. All of them were connect by doors that Hajime used to reach Ehit.

Yes, but this incomparably larger and more impressive at least based off what we know for certainty.

After S1, when they entered the desert.

Interesting.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Ahh I see. Wait, an advanced civilization from where? Tortus? Ehit's world?

Both Eto Shin ans Spirit whale were created by civilization of Tortus. Each time a civilization reach a certain level, Ehit will destroy it.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Yes, but this incomparably larger and more impressive at least based off what we know for certainty.

Why ?

 

[Community_Gamer]

Both Eto Shin ans Spirit whale were created by civilization of Tortus. Each time a civilization reach a certain level, Ehit will destroy it.

True I forgot about the Spirit Whale.

 

[Community_Gamer]

Why ?

A colony of treasure warehouse with miniscule size of grains of sand that numbered in the tens of thousands.

The other dimension that each grain possessed was unified internally to create this vast isolated space.

Because of this statement, unless we have something like this for the Precincts

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Because of this statement, unless we have something like this for the Precincts

The portal(vortex) to his dimension

“Nacchan! We need to get to where Ehit is! We have to go through that vortex!”

“I’m trying to get us there! But...shit! I’m sorry.”

The frustration in Naiz’s voice made it clear that even after understanding the true nature of spatial magic—the ability to manipulate boundaries—he still couldn’t push his way into Ehit’s domain.

Laus couldn’t sense any souls on the other side of the vortex either. Lyutillis couldn’t appraise what the vortex was even made of, nor could Miledi find any way to destroy it. Whatever it was, it was beyond even ancient magic.Miledi and the others’ expressions stiffened. Zero Vol6 p185

Rainbow zone

Far below the group, a single structure could be seen. It was a massive wall that was entirely white, but it was the only thing in this vibrant, colorful world that looked concrete. The top of the wall was wide enough to accommodate ten people standing next to each other. From there, a single path that seemed to stretch on for eternity led farther into this strange region. Vol12 p26

But they reached the end, It could also be a void

Shea suddenly pulled an iron ball out of her Treasure Trove, walked over to the edge of the path, and dropped it.“Whoa, I thought I could find out how far down this thing goes, but...”

“What happened?” Hajime asked.

“It didn’t get very far, Hajime-san. Feels like it got swallowed up.”

“Swallowed up by what?”

“No clue, but that’s the only way I can describe it.”

Indeed, the ball had been quickly swallowed up as if it had fallen into a swamp. Shizuku and Suzu had watched it happen as well. They shook their heads, making it clear that they agreed with Shea’s assessment, despite how strange it seemed.

“All I know is that nothing good is waiting for you if you fall,” Shizuku muttered. Vol12 p27

The end of this zone

When he reached the end of the corridor, Hajime touched the multicolored wall that seemed to be the end of this space. Ripples spread outward from the spot that he touched, and his hand slid into the colored wall. It looked like that spot did connect to somewhere else. And judging by his compass, their distance to Yue was the same on either side of the barrier. Vol12 p45

Does it mean there is a distance between the zones ?

We know that the position of these zones is random, that how Shizuku and the other found Shia and Tio.

The other side of the wall

Unfortunately, the compass wasn’t able to give Hajime a clear picture of what was on the other side. In fact, it almost felt like wherever it was connected to was changing in real time, which was why he’d thrown a space-warping grenade over just in case. It was a new type of grenade that twisted the space around it into a whirlpool and crushed anything caught in it. It was extremely lethal while also being perfectly silent. Vol12 p45

The transition between zones

The transition between places was dizzying. A kaleidoscope of colorsassailed the group from all sides, making them feel drunk. There was also a disgusting sensation of something slippery brushing against their skin. Fortunately, the whole experience lasted only a few seconds. Vol12 p 46

The other zones

“This is the fourth zone we have passed through. Is Ehit toying with us?” Tio asked with a frown.

“He might be. This is his domain, after all. He probably gets to choose where we get transported.”

After passing through the portal atop the clock tower, Hajime and the others had passed through three other zones. The first had been a dimension where the ground and the sky were flipped, and gravity was inconsistent. The objects inside that dimension had seemed to fall in all different directions. The second zone had been a museum of sorts. It had been an underground labyrinth with busts andstatues at every corner. The statues were of humans, demons, beastmen, dwarves, and giants, as well as monsters and creatures Hajime had never seen before. The third zone had been a library. There was no sky or ground to speak of, just an endless expanse of white filled with bookshelves. The books were seemingly written in every language under the sun and bound in all sorts of unique ways.“Is that why all the enemies we ran into were super annoying? Because he’s messing with us?” Shea asked, clapping her hands together in realization.

In the upside-down world, they’d been assailed by a flock of pyramid-shaped inorganic automatons that had been made of some unknown material. They’d been able to control gravity and had moved in a tight formation like fighterplanes. Though in the end, Hajime had blown them all to bits with his Agni Orkans. In the museum world, they’d been attacked by the statues, as everyone had been expecting. Hajime had blown them all to bits too with his Agni Orkans. In the library, the books had cast magic at the party and summoned monsters. And so, Hajime had carried out the biggest book burning in history with his Agni Orkans. Vol 12 p162

BTW, Ehit can change the destiation of spatial travel.


After Hajime vs Ehit begun

The sea of clouds had finally parted, and as it dissipated, the area below it finally became visible. However, the sky below was distorted, as if everyone was looking at it through a fish-eye lens. And far below that distorted space was a familiar sight. Suzu and the others could see a fortress sitting in the middle of a flat plain...with thousands upon thousands of people fighting against an army of apostles. But then, the distortion suddenly vanished, and other distortions appeared elsewhere in the sky in multiple places. They showed the dimensions Shea and the others had passed through, as well as other areas they didn’t recognize.

The ominous rumbling grew stronger, and the distortions that connected to other dimensions started appearing and disappearing more quickly and more frequently than ever. Vol12 p283

After this they couldn't use portals to travel to other zones.

Void ?

“It may have something to do with why this dimension has become so unstable. There are more obelisks on the other islands. Let us see if any of them still work,” Tio said, though she had a bad feeling that they might be trapped here. Still, they all split up to try the other obelisks in the distance.

Unfortunately, none of them activated. And to make matters worse, the cracks in the sky were getting so big that they were breaking apart pieces of the sky...and there was nothing but darkness beyond those shattered segments. If you stared at them long enough,they looked like nothing more than black walls, but as a test, Shizuku tried throwing a pebble at one of them.

“Looks like anything that goes in disintegrates,” Shizuku said. The stone had turned to dust and vanished as soon as it had hit the blackness.“ Vol12 p284

 

[Community_Gamer]

The portal(vortex) to his dimension



Rainbow zone

But they reached the end, It could also be a void

The end of this zone

Does it mean there is a distance between the zones ?

We know that the position of these zones is random, that how Shizuku and the other found Shia and Tio.

The other side of the wall


The transition between zones


The other zones

BTW, Ehit can change the destiation of spatial travel.


After Hajime vs Ehit begun

After this they couldn't use portals to travel to other zones.

Void ?

Yeah all of this interesting but it's also quite vague and left to interpretation. I still can't definitely tell you how large the Holy Precincts are nor how many dimensions they contain.


However with Eto Shin there's far less ambiguity. There are tens of thousands of dimensions that connected to together to create a vast space which is large enough to contain a moon and potentially stars.

The Holy Precincts could be larger but it's not as clear, and it'd require more assumptions.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Artificial realities


VR Game: a digital space that follow different rules and its timeflow is similar to the real world.

Illustrations Book: each page of this book is a fictional world that force characters to follow the plot.

Holy precinct: an isolated world that contain mutiple separate zones with a possible temporal dimension, some zones have sunlight.

Mirage: an isolated world formed from the collection of multiple pocket dimensions within grains of sands. It has day and night, and the timeflow within can be manipulateed by Eto Shin.

Ancient city: a world outside space-time(Nine realms) that could only be accessed through the spirit whale. This world was used to seal monsters.
Well because this whale use time travel, no time has passed when they were teleported back to Tortus.

The great barrier of heavenly stars: a world that was created by Abe no Seimei(Onmyodo), it's was created and ssutained by the planet's energy. This world is like Japan and it has a red moon and a different flow of time.The guardian(White fox) was able to manipulate its time to slow down its destruction. (few hours inside=3 days in the real world).

Miniature Guarden: an isolated and independent world with its own world tree, it's the same size as earth. Its size and timeflow can be manipulated by Hajime.

 

[Community_Gamer]

Miniature Guarden: an isolated and independent world with its own world tree, it's the same size as earth. Its size and timeflow can be manipulated by Hajime.

Can't it be expanded further with Grasp Gloria?

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Can't it be expanded further with Grasp Gloria?

Yes

『By the way, Goshujin-sama. How big art the size of the Miniature Garden currently?』

「In that case……ah? Size? It’s more or less, around the size of earth I guess. The expansion stopped there. The Miniature Garden itself is a spherical space. However, the construction is like the application of the flat earth theory.」

Whoops, Hajime thought while returning his mind to reality.

Willpower that was imported practically by root and branch from the earth’s King Tree plus unlimited magic power.

The amount of energy was overflowing. If automatic brake wasn’t applied to the expansion, the “Miniature Garden” would expand without end. And so for the time being, Hajime kept the size to be similar to some degree with earth as the model.

However, it didn’t mean there was a spherically-shaped land like a planet. The sphere in the end was nothing more than the shape of the space.

At the center of the spherical space was the Treasure Tree. The “surface” part when the space was split into hemisphere state was the land. That was the whole picture of the “Miniature Garden”. Ch 481

The Miniature Guarden produce all types of planet energy.


Enti senses

『Fumu……if I remember correctly, there was a talk of how areas that Enti couldst not observe hath appeared before she knew it, correct?』

「Yeah. Originally that should be impossible though.」

Hajime crossed his arms and groaned a little.

It was only natural. Enti was the goddess of the Treasure Tree. She had the authority to sense all the places that were connected to the Treasure Tree even if she didn’t go to take a look directly. In other words, the whole “Miniature Garden” was within her sensing range.

But, not long ago it seemed that she became unable to sense a part of the area that was near the edge of the southern side. Ch 481

This was done by the 7DS

From a glance, there was nothing there. There was only nature with vegetations that were all messed up like usual.

A mountain range could be seen at the distance. There was a giant lake at the east, and there was only woodland as far as they could see at the west.

It was a sight of peaceful nature with nothing out of place at all.

The scenery only looked like that but……it couldn’t trick the two’s senses.

「Is it space magic? No, other than that there’s also a type of illusion to show this idyllic scenery.」

『Mayhaps it’s a type of soul magic? Either way』

「Yeah.」

The two’s atmosphere changed dramatically. Their mind was switching to expecting battle. Wariness seeped out into their eyes.

It was natural.

After all, the invisible gap before their eyes was a “barrier” that was created with a super advanced technique.

This wasn’t the natural phenomenon or disorder of “Miniature Garden” itself that they assumed to be the case.

This was clearly the work of outsider that was done intentionally to deceive the eyes of the goddess Enti.

At the same time this meant that an existence with such advanced technique was there at the other side of the spatial wall. Furthermore that existence was hiding from Enti to do something.

「Just what’re they doing in someone else’s garden.」

『I doth not wish to suspect an insurrection.』

Hajime took out Crystal Key from his treasure warehouse and connected a gate to the other side of the spatial wall. Ch 481

So we know that pocket dimensions can hold multiple other dimensions within them.


BTW, can you get something for sustaining these artificial realities ?

 

[Community_Gamer]

Yes

The Miniature Guarden produce all types of planet energy.


Enti senses

This was done by the 7DS

So we know that pocket dimensions can hold multiple other dimensions within them.

I don't know if I'd call that example another dimension but I see what you are saying.

BTW, can you get something for sustaining these artificial realities ?

Hmm, not really in this case. After all its Grasp Gloria and Enti/Treasure Tree maintaining no? Hajime could get somethings for creating it depending in the how.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Hmm, not really in this case. After all its Grasp Gloria and Enti/Treasure Tree maintaining no? Hajime could get somethings for creating it depending in the how.

No, it was Earth energy

Furthermore, that energy didn’t consist only of willpower that was flowing into here from earth. Anticipating the immigrants from various worlds, the element conversion system was releasing all of the other known energies too. Ch 481

He was concerting Earth energy into other forms.
More proof that the planet energy is infinite, and that the DRAGON could reach tier 3 from absorbing the Earth energy.


I asking for the others(Holy precinct, Mirage...). Seems like they could get something for sustaining them.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

I forgot about these:

VR Game: a digital space that follow different rules and its timeflow is similar to the real world.

Illustrations Book: each page of this book is a fictional world that force characters to follow the plot.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

CM and Info type 2 for soul ?

The God of Highschool - The Core of Life, and what it entails

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

VR Game: a virtual reality that follow different rules and it has a different timeflow.

Illustrations Book: each page of this book is a fictional world that force characters to follow the plot.

You might get something out of it if you could find mentions of these having physical space or just dimensional space/time in general

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

You might get something out of it if you could find mentions of these having physical space or just dimensional space/time in general.

Why and how?
There is feats of space or time manipulation within it.


They use the VR(digital space) to train, and it's possible to control it's timeflow.

And so, in order to disperse Yue’s possible stress, and admonished Kaori’s peace complacency, Hajime used Abyssgate program in order to buy time while he and the others finished their preparation and dived in inside the game.

It was time comparable to the real world.



The book pictures are just fictional worlds with a plot. The book is an artifact created to trap women, when the male protagonist enter it he was able to hear voices from the real world in real time.
Maybe only the female is trapped and can't leave on her own.(the male protagonist wasn't suppose to be there)



What about the others ?

 

[Digital_Franz]

CM and Info type 2 for soul ?

The God of Highschool - The Core of Life, and what it entails

vsbattles.fandom.com

Possibly. I'm going to be busy for several months. I'll possibly skim over what I can when I can.

 

[Community_Gamer]

No, it was Earth energy

Yes I mentioned Grasp Gloria

He was concerting Earth energy into other forms.
More proof that the planet energy is infinite, and that the DRAGON could reach tier 3 from absorbing the Earth energy.

Well I mean they say it's infinite so yeah. DRAGON would need feats or universal statements, simply having infinite energy isn't a valid enough reason for Tier 3

I asking for the others(Holy precinct, Mirage...). Seems like they could get something for sustaining them.

Meh

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Yes I mentioned Grasp Gloria

What ?
grasp gloria≠earth energy

Grasp gloria is an artifact that produce, absorb or contain "infinite" energy.

Why is he using earth ?
He is directing Earth energy toward the Miniature Guarden to prevent the DRAGON from absorbing it and awakening again.

Well I mean they say it's infinite so yeah. DRAGON would need feats or universal statements, simply having infinite energy isn't a valid enough reason for Tier 3

I've already showed you

『It’s the power of a monster that couldst destroy not only a planet but even the universe thou realize? Normally, nobody wouldst dare to think that, I couldst also do the same thing!』Ch 481

BTW, they were onlu fighting his "shadow" .

 

[Community_Gamer]

What ?
grasp gloria≠earth energy

Grasp gloria is an artifact that produce absorb or contain "infinite" energy.

Bro I know. I'm saying that's the method to obtaining said energy. I know what it does and how it functions.

Why is he using earth ?
He is directing Earth energy toward the Miniature Guarden to prevent the DRAGON from absorbing it and awakening again.

Makes sense.

I've already showed you

BTW, they were onlu fighting his "shadow" .

Unfortunately I don't think that's a conclusive enough statement since he's doesn't have the feats he'd need more statements or at least a more definitive/explicit one. This is just presenting a possibility. I mean you can try get it approved I don't think it'd be accepted.

In other words, Sagan Standard would hard counter this.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

They use the VR(digital space) to train, and it's possible to control it's timeflow.

Digital Space is different from physical Space, so that won't do, sadly

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Ix Chel from Aztec Myths ?

「It’s here.」

Right after Noboru said that, there was something crossing through at the top part of the screen. The thing that was like a shadow emitting a strange luster from trees to trees was passing through in high speed.

The people around didn’t notice. Only Mao sensed it. Her camera was swiftly following the shadow, but it hid behind a veil of branches and leaves in the blink of eye, leaving its true form to be shrouded in mystery.

However, although she was a rear guard type, she was still one of the other world cheat group. Even though her camera couldn’t keep up, Mao’s kinetic vision had apparently firmly perceived the shadow’s mysteriousness.

『What was that just now? Jaguar? No but the color was strange. Besides, can jaguar move that quickly on trees?』

The comment section was also exploding. There must be also some viewers who were knowledgeable about animals in Amazon River basin. The shadow was too fast that the camera’s focus speed couldn’t match it. The shadow’s true form still wasn’t clear even after various parts of the video was slowed down or paused. But, at the very least they knew that it was a four-legged animal with fur that seemed to have seven colors. That revelation sent the comment section into an uproar.

The adults around Mao were also checking the camera image and their expression turned grim.

According to them, it seemed that among the information about the ruin there was also the reason why the local people avoided the place. It said that there was an unknown existence protecting the place. Ch 475

「With the King Tree’s revival, some myths might also got revived, so be careful. Nagumo said that right?」

「Yeah, he said that it’s vanishingly unlikely because he’s in control of the willpower but just in case.」

「In fact, the dragon’s revival was also accompanied by “dragon myths” all over the world almost materializing after all. It’s only natural to be on guard.」

「When human is in the picture, it’s not impossible for something to happen due to human-cause after all.」

In other words, the shadow that Mao encountered might also be something that was a materialization of a part of local myth? It seemed that based on that thinking, Noboru had already reported this to Hajime just in case.

Although, Amazon was a treasure trove of animals in the first place. It was an unexplored region where new species got discovered every year in terrific number. Therefore, this was regarded as “It mustn’t be anything big but it should be reported just in case”. Ch 475

 

[Community_Gamer]

Ix Chel from Aztec Myths ?

No clue, but other conceptions reviving is interesting.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Some interesting details from Remnant of Myth and Maiden of The Lake :

Hajime RE ?

――iIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINN

The Serpent’s roar. It was clad in Tio’s magic power, enchanting it with the soul magic “Soul Impact” to directly attack the soul.

It was a surprise attack that hit them while they were shaken up. That attack ignored any armor or the body’s toughness and hit them directly. Even Hajime had his consciousness almost blown away. Ch 2

A roar to shake the soul was let out from Gran Replica. But he didn’t even feel it anymore.

He simply charged with the rage toward the scoundrel that dare to use her beloved one’s power as it pleased. Ch 5

Sword authority

「What in the world……Kouki! What did you do!?」

「Uguuh, the holy sword……has the power, to control……authority-」

To be more accurate it was an interference ability against authority. In order to help the great spirits who were faced with difficult battles, the great tree created the holy sword at the end. Although it was impossible for it to neutralize the authorities, it was possible to at least support or suppress authorities. In a sense it was only natural for the holy sword to have such function.

The long passage of time had degraded many of the authorities. It also applied to the holy sword. But that extremely limited power was awakened in this critical moment was due to the hero’s attribute as expected. Ch 5

Soul and knowledge

The maiden of the lake who possessed the authority of the transmigration of life, the spirit of life who managed the water and soul, Urdia. Ch 4

Ehit group used her power to create this

But, what “he” created was something that far outstripped the hero and the warrior group.

「Tsu, so it’s like that」

Giant golems that were modeled after the great spirits――ReplicaPseudo Spirit.

The Replicas could use the authority of their originals, at the same time they also had extraordinary ability that made the great spirits unable to display their actual power.

For some reason there were only three of them from the start, and before they realized it the figure of UrdiaSpirit of Life had stopped appearing in the projection…… Ch 4

and

「……Combat ability succession system……”God’s Eye”?」

According to the information, it was originally an artifact for prolonging life span through soul copying. This artifact was adjusted so the emotion and will were suppressed as preventative measure against rebellion, while only autonomy in regard to battle was maintained.

The demerit was doing the copying from human to human would cause turbidity to the soul and turned the human into an invalid, so the soul transcription could only be done to golem. The merit was that because it was golem, the soul wouldn’t be separated even if it received damage that should be fatal for living thing, and the golem was easy to repair and could be sent back to the frontline quickly. Ch 4

It's obvious that her soul manipulation is more potent that soul magic, because it's an authority.


Ancient magic circle=info(type 1) and soul manipulation

「The magic circle for pillaging soul that is used in “God’s Eye” and the magic circle for recovering soul that woman used looked really similar to each other. I think that they are the inverse of each other.」

「Certainly, that might be the case.」

「The memo recorded the magic circle for passing down age of god magic that we ran into at the great dungeons. I think the knowledge transfer and memory browsing should be similar with this magic circle.」

「In other words……you’re telling me to reproduce the soul recovery magic?」Ch 4

BTW, they lost ancient magic when a part if their soul was absorbed. Until Yue replicated the magic circle and recovered their soul.

「……It’s alright now. I’ll take care of things.」

「Ou, I leave it to you.」

Yue turned her back on him. She glared at the battlefield.

The pseudo spirits that had the memory wrenched back from them and lost their autonomy because of that had stopped moving. It seemed that an instruction immediately came from the ruins through Urdia, but their movements were fatally slow.

『……Shia, Tio. Send them flying.』

『There’s no need to even ask!!』

『How unsightly we hath been acting. It shouldst be allowed for me to vent for a liiitle bit just for this time!!』

Yue’s regeneration magic enveloped her two comrades. Right after that, DONN a flash of light blue color pierced the sky. Ch 5

She reversed it

「Original magic “God’s Eye”! Those memories should just be gonee!」

She hadn’t made that kind of magic. In the end it was just the soul recovery magic. It seemed that she forcefully reversed it.

Golden light exploded blindingly. 「Wait, Yue!?」 There were screams.

The bridge got buried in golden light. Several seconds passed.

「Eh? Nothing happened?」

「Y-yes. We are fine?」

Kaori and Shizuku looked at each other. Shia and others also seemed to be fine. As expected, magic to take away a fragment of soul was too advanced. Even Yue couldn’t possibly do such thing immediately――

「Eeeh? Where is this place? What in the world I……eh? Who, are you guys?」

Oh? Hajime’s condition was…… Epilogue

You could argue that the soul is information(data) because it could be trapped in the Digital World and possess machines.


Authority=Concept magic>Ancient Magic

Hajime took out the compass from his pocket at the same time with Tio starting the past replay.

「……You child of man, have created something truly impressive.」

She must have seen through the extraordinary ability of the compass in one glance. Lutria’s feeling went past shock and into a bit of exasperation.

「I understand what it is you wish to ask. It is whether that object’s ability is superior compared to a goddess’s authority or not isn’t it?」

「Yeah, your opinion?」

「Though the nature is different, I can safely say that it is equal in the relevant world.」Ch 492

Their authority comes from the same source(the great trees), we also have the tree interfering with concept magic.

「Or rather, the teleport destination, it got slightly shifted……this star tree is something, not bad.」

Hajime who grumbled that looked around and smiled wryly.

The place they teleported to seemed to be the edge of the star tree’s solitary island――above a cliff. They planned to teleport directly to the star tree’s location, but apparently the space was interfered with and they ended up on the island’s edge.

In the end, was it the star tree that was absurd with how it obstructed the Crystal Key’s teleportation ability, or was it the Crystal Key that was absurd with how it overcame the obstruction of a god of a world and teleported the user through even if it was only to the edge of the stronghold? Ch 340

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Is it enough to prove that the soul could be concept and info type 1 and 2 ?

 

[Community_Gamer]

Is it enough to prove that the soul could be concept and info type 1 and 2 ?

What's specific reasoning? How would you articulate it?

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

What's specific reasoning? How would you articulate it?

Still not sure about these

1)Soul fragments= memory and knowledge(ancient magic), and it couldn't be recovered using time magic. Maybe it's similar to Hajime erasing someone info

2)Tio copying "Dragon factor" seem like copying a specific information of the soul, and changing the monsters soul cause them to change mentally(personality) and physically(body).

3) Souls could enter video games and control machines. Maybe it's a form of digital information too

4)There is an explanation that describe the elements that make up the soul as information that could be duplicated

The impetus for the idea was of course a certain Abyssgate-san. His clone bodies were produced by his skill but, originally that skill could be categorized as soul magic.

By copying the information of one’s own soul and imprinting it into a body of magic power, it became possible to have another body that could move autonomically and share information. It was a magic with the highest level of difficulty. Ch 483

Maybe limited ?

 

[Community_Gamer]

Still not sure about these

1)Soul fragments= memory and knowledge(ancient magic), and it couldn't be recovered using time magic. Maybe it's similar to Hajime erasing someone info

2)Tio copying "Dragon factor" seem like copying a specific information of the soul, and changing the monsters soul cause them to change mentally(personality) and physically(body).

3) Souls could enter video games and control machines. Maybe it's a form of digital information too

4)There is an explanation that describe the elements that make up the soul as information that could be duplicated


Maybe limited ?

I can the vision for Information Manipulation Type 2 but not really Type 1. I also don't see how this would make souls conceptual.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

I can the vision for Information Manipulation Type 2 but not really Type 1. I also don't see how this would make souls conceptual.

Still trying to find something

1)The soul is created from conception

2)Souls with conception like gods's or something like dragon factor should be conceptual

3)The elements that make up the soul are will, emotions, thoughts...

4)We know that the soul can manipulate, create(concept magic and conceptions), resist and contain concepts within them(ancient magic, "dragon factor").

5)Lutria creating the elemental spirits(AE) that govern nature through her soul.

6)There is also the fact that the only things that could handle concept magic are spells and mana crystals(divinity stone), and ancient magic is fueled by those energies.


Why info type 1 ?

Fragments of the soul contain knowledge and memory. After losing a fragment of their soul Yue, Shia and Tio lost Ancient magic and the one who stole thsese fragments was able to use their ancient magic and their spells.

We also have multiple statment that prove they gain ancient magic through imprinting knowledge into the soul.





Omnipresent concepts ?

According to them, it wasn’t just limited to wind, apparently existences who possessed nature divinity of water or light were also relatively easy to summon although not as easy as the hero as long as there was some kind of connection formed even through the partition of the world. Especially divinity with strong connection with “World Tree’s Branch”. Ch 388

We know conception of Ehit couldn't leave Tortus until they revived the great tree wich ended up connecting Tortus to the other realms. The same thing with Earth conception.

Conception is different for each realm

Hajime nodded in exasperation and asked whether it was possible to summon the divinity who marked him from the presence of wind that was following him.

「……My, it’s true. Perhaps because it’s from different world, even I can’t sense it unless I focus, but certainly I’m feeling a presence of divinity. These children can sense it only because they are the beloved children of a wind god.」Ch 388

「It seems the small Heaven Tree is recovering well……yes, I can manage it somehow, but only if the other side is inclined to answer. This doesn’t seem like a mere god of foreign world, but a child of the avatar of another world, it won’t be difficult if I trace the presence of this wind――no, this conception.」Ch 388

 

[Community_Gamer]

Still trying to find something

1)The soul is created from conception

2)Souls with conception like gods's or something like dragon factor should be conceptual

3)The elements that make up the soul are will, emotions, thoughts...

4)We know that the soul can manipulate, create(concept magic and conceptions), resist and contain concepts within them(ancient magic, "dragon factor").

5)Lutria creating the elemental spirits(AE) that govern nature through her soul.

6)There is also the fact that the only things that could handle concept magic are spells and mana crystals(divinity stone), and ancient magic is fueled by those energies.


Why info type 1 ?

Fragments of the soul contain knowledge and memory. After losing a fragment of their soul Yue, Shia and Tio lost Ancient magic and the one who stole thsese fragments was able to use their ancient magic and their spells.

We also have multiple statment that prove they gain ancient magic through imprinting knowledge into the soul.

I don't think this applies to Type 1, but hey that's just my opinion

Omnipresent concepts ?

We know conception of Ehit couldn't leave Tortus until they revived the great tree wich ended up connecting Tortus to the other realms. The same thing with Earth conception.

Conception is different for each realm

This definitely makes conception less impressive but also realistically able to deal with.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

I don't think this applies to Type 1, but hey that's just my opinion

The ones above are possible evidence for info info type 2 and AE

This definitely makes conception less impressive but also realistically able to deal with

Why and How ?

It seems that the original conception that come from the source world is omnipresent while the conception that is created by people is stuck in their world and can't reach the other realms without the great trees.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Forgot about this :

The apostle gaining fairy factor ?

Hajime immediately handed the white pearl necklace――the “Soul Shell” which was the improved version of the artifact that was thought up by the liberators to defend against Ehito’s “Divine Word”. This artifact had the function of “neutralizing mental type abnormal status effect”.

「S-say, Nagumo……isn’t Etemp-san and Netemp-san also in danger?」

「Aa? Y-you two are also affected huh……」

When Hajime turned around because of Kousuke’s words, Etemp-san was on her back with her legs twitching. Netemp Mother had fallen down with her trembling hands reaching out toward Hajime as though to say 『Sa, save mee~, masterr~』.

It seemed the “Juso” that came attacking was something very powerful. Most likely its effect was working at the level of soul.

「Well, this is also a proof that you two have souls though……」

「「I, ii~~~」」

「Or rather you two, what happened with your usual high tension? You two were too quiet that you became just like Endou.」Ch 384

After

「Could it be, you two were strangely quiet since coming to this world because……」

「Yes master. It feels like, our soul got the jitters. Then when we focused a bit and put some effort, there was a feeling like perhaps we can do it and then when we tried we really could talk.」Ch 387

They didn't have souls before coming to this world, they were existing as pure conception(mind)

「……In other words, the existences of you two are like a hodgepodge of such positive conception?」

「Master, wording.」

「Say it in a cooler way! Mister Aby, please show an example.」

「Eh!? ……You two are an aggregation (cluster) of positive subconscious, something like that?」

「「As expected from the one who has peeked into the abyss of chuuni!」」

「Shaddup! Continue with the explanation already!」

Kouki smiled wryly while calming down Kousuke. Fairy Etemp puffed out her chest while he was doing that and she showed a smug face.

「We who ended up becoming an aggregation of positive subconscious wandered in Tortus for a while after that. And then after Kaori-sama returned to her original body, we dwelled inside the body of Neunte who had returned to being a soulless doll again.」

「The reason we did that is unclear but, most likely that was the result of us seeking master subconsciously, and master yourself had fought that body personally and perceived that physical body as a comrade, so that might be the cause we entered that body.」

「Why did you two go to me?」

「Master, this positive conception also included a lot of feeling of deep gratitude for ending the insane game of the god you know?」

「It’s only natural that we wish to stay beside master. The conception that form our fundamentals is also fully made up of that.」 Ch 387

We know that they don't have souls, and with again she meant how the apostle body used to be(soulless).

What they did

「This feeling……don’t tell me, they interfered with the thought element on their own?」

Netemp Mother and Etemp-san bent backward in unison. They also didn’t forget to make their fingers and legs snapped up to point above. An overwhelming smugness radiated from them.

「Using Ehito’s formula to convert piety into magic power as reference, we tried our best with apostle’s knowledge, technique, and also “fighting spirit” that we learned from Shia-sama.」Ch 387

They became native to this world

「This thought element’s density, the massiveness of the conception……has she really been reborn as apparition――」

「You there! I’m a fairy!」

「N-no, you are composed of thought element of another world, so by definition you are apparition――」

「I – am – a – fai – ry!」

「……Yes, you are a fairy. I can’t believe that you are really reborn as a fairy by your own effort. Especially when the world is at its current state.」

If they were here inside the Heaven Tree, there was a foundation for “fairy” to be born here. However, as expected an apparition that was born from the flow of conception of another world couldn’t do that here.

And yet, Aularodde saw it with her own eyes how Etemp formed herself with conception of another world, and furthermore with a vast amount of it.

「The possibility that I can think of is……that you already have a vast amount of conception dwelling within yourself from the start?」Ch 387

If someone is born there they'll have something like a fairy factor. Is this "fairy foudation" similar to the dragon factor ?




BTW, a demon called Hajime hybrid after seeing his soul

「Nice to meet you. Are you someone from that castle? This is quite a novel way to invite someone! Furthermore, that’s one splendid castle! By the way, perhaps there is some kind of misunderstanding, so I’ll say this first but, we are just a virtuous tourist――」

――Mixed person who isn’t human or demon, I’ll receive your soul as the compensation of your sin invading my territory

「Hajime-san!」

A vision of death attacked once more! Ch 345

And we know they can see soul

――Nice struggle. That’s a wonderful radiance of soul. Especially the woman’s soul is wonderful

「……Hm?」

Hajime’s eyes narrowed hearing the voice.

――What a really good woman. Her quality surpassed that of the saint. She will make a good womb

――Indeed. It’s a bit wasteful to merely eat her Ch 345

And we got a dagger that slay gods and a cross that destroy demons, possibly by targetting "divinity" and "demon".


This part could be less than just flowery words, and the reason that the dagger didn't work was due to him becoming something above the concept of god(divinity). WTF is that ? (brain rot)


Do we have enough evindence to prove that there could be something abstract about the soul ?

 

[Community_Gamer]

The ones above are possible evidence for info info type 2 and AE

I see that is fine then

Why and How ?

Well it just means the range of conception is basically universal, so it's not that crazy, which is fine.

It seems that the original conception that come from the source world is omnipresent while the conception that is created by people is stuck in their world and can't reach the other realms without the great trees.

Greater collective unconscious and platonic concepts probably

 

[Community_Gamer]

Do we have enough evindence to prove that there could be something abstract about the soul ?

Do you think Concept Magic falls up Type 1, Type 2, or Type 3 CM?

Because I'll be honest I don't see why it'd fall under any of them. Concept magic doesn't govern the reality its created from nor anywhere else because its always limited to the effectiveness and range of the object it has been enchanted into.

So I'm just confused about that. As for the soul being abstract, I'd say that I haven't seen any for that.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Well it just means the range of conception is basically universal, so it's not that crazy, which is fine.

Unless the realms are connected, the DRAGON authority could reach the Heaven world and probavly the other realms because they were connected.

Do you think Concept Magic falls up Type 1, Type 2, or Type 3 CM?

Because I'll be honest I don't see why it'd fall under any of them. Concept magic doesn't govern the reality its created from nor anywhere else because its always limited to the effectiveness and range of the object it has been enchanted into.

Type 1


Why ?
1)It transcend reality and cannot be explained or affected by ancient magic.

2)A concept will still exist after it's user death or the will behind was lost.

Ex:
Tio's ancestor scale
Artifacts(Arrow of path and godslaying dagger) created by the liberators kept existing until the current era
Hajime EE bullet kept it's power after he regain his sanity and didn't want to erase everyone.

We know there is different conception in each realm, so the spirit governing another world nature says that their CM is not limted on their world.

And being limited to the object it govern doesn't downgrade anything.


The problem here is that we see multiple artifact and no spells.
Well there is a concept magic barrier created by the hero in Zero, and yes it kept existing after his death.

and this look like concept magic

Her regeneration magic must be being jammed. “She” fell from the light spear that pierced her chest. However, she kept advancing forward even when her life was like a candle light in front of blowing wind. She crawled on the ground while vomiting blood.

She must have a reason why she couldn’t possibly give up. It was a terrific willpower.

Perhaps that was why, it occurred.

“She” herself must not have realized what she was doing.

Richly colored light was emitted from “her” as she crawled desperately. Hajime and Yue didn’t know what it was. They had no knowledge of it.

When they looked at “him”, it seemed that “he” knew what it was. It must be a divine act. But, apparently it was something that should be completely impossible based on how astonished “he” looked.

“He” attacked in a panicked hurry, but all of his attacks were swallowed by the richly colored light and didn’t reach “her”. Far from that, it seemed that he couldn’t even touch the light. He was getting cornered toward the wall as the light kept spreading.

“He” turned a gaze that was a mix of resignation and anger toward “her” who wouldn’t even look at him anymore. At the end his face turned expressionless and he teleported away to somewhere.

After that, “She” arrived at this place, the central control room with desperate effort. But,

「So, this is her huh.」

「……I wonder what did she want to do.」

She didn’t reach. She was crying while reaching out with her hand, her expression was dyed with guilt. In the end she expired while her mouth was saying something. Mysteriously, the richly colored light that denied everything from reaching her still remained even after that.

Seeing how “him” also didn’t come back, it must be a type of barrier.

「As expected it seemed like it didn’t last until this era.」

「It vanished far away in the past. And then this facility degraded from the passage of time that was so long, that even the geography on the surface had changed. And then a part of this facility got unearthed by the fighting of the monsters.」Remnant of Myth Ch 4

Him= that's Ehit in the age of gods.


Just ask Expectro

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

So I'm just confused about that. As for the soul being abstract, I'd say that I haven't seen any for that.

Didn't you agree to info type 2 or dragon factor being conceptual ?


Didn't answere this

This part could be less than just flowery words, and the reason that the dagger didn't work was due to him becoming something above the concept of god(divinity). WTF is that ? (brain rot)

 

[Community_Gamer]

Unless the realms are connected, the DRAGON authority could reach the Heaven world and probavly the other realms because they were connected.

Yeah, I just without requiring outside influence.

Type 1


Why ?
1)It transcend reality and cannot be explained or affected by ancient magic.

2)A concept will still exist after it's user death or the will behind was lost.

Ex:
Tio's ancestor scale
Artifacts(Arrow of path and godslaying dagger) created by the liberators kept existing until the current era
Hajime EE bullet kept it's power after he regain his sanity and didn't want to erase everyone.

We know there is different conception in each realm, so the spirit governing another world nature says that their CM is not limted on their world.

And being limited to the object it govern doesn't downgrade anything.


The problem here is that we see multiple artifact and no spells.
Well there is a concept magic barrier created by the hero in Zero, and yes it kept existing after his death.

and this look like concept magic

Him= that's Ehit in the age of gods.

So yeah I am aware of all that. The issue is that it doesn't really fall under Type 1 imo.

"Independent Universal Concepts: Such concepts are completely independent from the part of reality they govern, except maybe of other concepts of this nature. These concepts shape all of reality within their area of influence and at whatever level that area exists in, and everything in it "participates" in these concepts. For example, a circular object is circular because it is "participating" in the concept of "circle-ness". In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept across all of their area of influence, while the opposite wouldn't affect the concept."

1. Concept Magic doesn't seem to shape all of reality even within a set area of influence.
2. Concept Magic doesn't seem to affect everything that participates in said concept.

I think Type 3 CM is more closely aligned with the explanations of Concept Magic.

"Lesser Fundamental Concepts: Concepts that don't meet the same standards as Type 1 or Type 2, such as personal concepts that continue to govern the object in question, merely on a more specific scale, or concepts whose nature is not elaborated upon. Case-by-case specifications and explanations are necessary for such concepts and examples, and they are likely not going to meet the same standards for abilities such as High-Godly regeneration that other concepts may. Conceptual manipulation of this type can be resisted by those who resist sufficiently similar abilities, even if the exact mechanics may differ."

1. "Personal concepts that continue to govern the object in question, merely on a specific scale, or concepts whose nature is not elaborated upon." This literally describes Arifuerta's Concept Magic to a tee.
2. "Conceptual manipulation of this type can be resisted by those who resist sufficiently similar abilities, even if the exact mechanics may differ." This fact has been perfectly illustrated by characters like Tio who resisted the CM in her ancestor's scale. As Ehit resists the god-slaying CM and still had a shade of his existence remain even after being hit with CM EE from Hajime.

This is just how I view Concept Magic at the moment, from everything we've experienced so far in the story. I'm not trying to change the profiles or anything, I am just expressing my thoughts. Regardless, I think the precise metaphysical understanding of Concept Magic, Conceptions, and the Collective Unconcious is very very shall currently in Ariferuta. So until Shirakome-san decides to drop some real knowledge on us, my view will likely remain the same.

 

[Community_Gamer]

Didn't you agree to info type 2 or dragon factor being conceptual ?

I can the vision for Information Manipulation Type 2 but not really Type 1. I also don't see how this would make souls conceptual.

I just said I could kinda see the argument. My above comment should perfectly elaborate on where I see everything regarding the concept magic. As for Dragon Factor, I just gave a devil's advocate argument on how you COULD potentially make it conceptual, but I don't really think the soul itself is conceptual. Unless we are distinguishing the Dragon Factor as simply being an element written into one's fundamental existence, in this case the soul, and therefore Dragon Factor can be conceptual while the soul itself is not.

Didn't answere this

All I would say is that due to the nature of Concept Magic being not necessarily being archetypal in nature and moreso personal dependant concepts (the fact that "stronger" concepts can be made adds to the credence). It's not particularly surprising that one's existence can evolve to a point of being unaffected by said "weaker" concepts. At least that'd be the straightforward explanation.

EDIT:
You could also come at it from the angle of conception playing a role in the so-called "divinity" he's referring to. If that's the case then he's actually saying that because his conception (the collective unconscious) of his existence has grown so powerful that simple concept magic can't undo/erase his existence. But we don't enough about how conceptions really compare to Concept Magic. Although simple based on the fact that destroying the avatar of the conception doesn't erase the conception from existence. As well as the conception being able to manipulate everything "participating" in said concept does lead me to believe it's Type 2. If you add on the fact that there's nothing that insinuates that you can destroy said conception via destroying all dragons for example....then Conception is likely Type 1.

However that doesn't necessarily mean souls themselves are that. Especially, if you can create a soul with just concept magic.

TLDR: Conception = Type 1 at best, Type 2 at worst. Concept Magic = Type 3 at best, Non-Qualifying at worst. Ancient Magic = Non-Qualifying at best, not conceptual at worst.