Arifureta Micellaneous Additions

[Expectro2000xxx]

A relatively small crt (at least considering the average Arifureta crt) touching a few things before next month crt with vol 13 additions or a possible crt to add a physiology page for unique energies. So anyways, here we go:

New Format​

Spoiler: New Format for Hajime and Kouki Stats

Well, as we can clearly see the stats of Hajime and Kouki aren't really friendly, they are too big and can get confusing to people that aren't familiar with them (heck even I had got lost several times while looking at them or editing the profiles), so with that in mind I propose to use this profile here as example and change the stats section of those two like this so is easier to read. The rest of profiles are more acceptable (though some like Shea or Kaori I feel are at the limit) so my intention is only touch Hajime and Kouki, however if more people think that it should be applied to other profiles like Shea or Kaori I'm fine with also apply this format to them.

Lutria Missing Stuff​

Just noticed but Lutria profile actually miss several things, I created it going with the basic stuff but even then I overdid it, so this will correct that.

Spoiler: Resistance to Elemental Manipulation

This is really simple Lutria is the mother of all the Divine Spirits and possess all their powers [Arifureta Chapter 342] to a far greater extent, and the Divine Spirits aren't only unaffected by their own powers but also the powers of their brothers as show by them nuking the area [Arifureta Chapter 340] while their brothers are in the surroundings.

Spoiler: Avatar of World Tree’s Branch

Lutria is an Avatar of World Tree’s Branch, as such she can control the gap between worlds and summon the hero or someone similar like Shea [Arifureta Chapter 386], though the summoning can also be specified and bring someone else. So she should get summoning from this

As an Avatar of World Tree’s Branch her existence is similar to that of Auralodde, the ruler of the Fairy World were live the apparitions and they are accepted as Abstract Existences Type 1 and 2, futhermore Auralodde said that Divine Spirits like Enti possess conception [Arifureta Chapter 388] and can become avatars like herself and that Lutria created them by sharing her existence [Arifureta Chapter 388]. So with this I propose to give her Abstract Existence 1 and 2

Spoiler: NPI

Divine Spirits have show to interact with [Arifureta Chapter 388] apparitions [Arifureta Chapter 424], demons [Arifureta Chapter 345] and other unique energies from the verse. Essentially speaking they have show to have the same NPI as magic so that mean she need it listed in her profile.

Spoiler: Resistance to Apparition Stuff

Divine Spirits participated in the fight against the Dragon Shadow which had an army of apparitions that included Yamato no Orochi, Yato no Kami [Arifureta Chapter 424], ghosts [Arifureta Chapter 421] for example, Lutria herself have also fought against Shea who can do soul [Arifureta Chapter 333] and spatial attacks [Arifureta Chapter 341] (take in mind that this was before the author buffed Shea considerably in vol 12 by basically making all her attacks doing soul and spatial hax), plus the standard resistances that apparitions have show (like apparition gods facing Yue in battle, including her aura, Divine Edict and gravity magic [Arifureta Chapter 417]). So she basically showed to possess the same defenses as the characters of Hajime party level, so she should have listed the according resistances Soul Manipulation, Mind Manipulation, Curse Manipulation, Power Nullification, Deconstruction, Law Manipulation, Conceptual Manipulation, Life Manipulation, Death Manipulation and Gravity Manipulation

Spirit Magic Stuff​

Spoiler: Spirit Magic Dream Perception Manipulation

(With Spirit Magic it’s possible to [Arifureta Chapter 436] enter inside a dream or projecting a dream in reality. Spirit Magic can affect people perception, going as far as even turn a swarm of cockroaches in a beatiful sight with stars and magical girls [Arifureta Chapter 439])

Spoiler: Futher Support to People Resistance to Hajime Pressure

This isn't really related to spirit magic but will still put it there.

So last thread it was already agreed that isn't necessary to change the characters resistances to explicitly list in the profiles that they can resist Hajime pressure and the effects of it, however I found futher support about people able to clear a labyrinth being able to resist his bloodlust [Arifureta Vol 3, Chapter 1] (at least his bloodlust at beginning of the novel, which while less potent than his current bloodlust still was able to affect people [Arifureta Volume 2, Chapter 1] biology [Arifureta Volume 3, Chapter 1], senses [Arifureta Volume 4, Chapter 5], generate physical pressure [Arifureta Volume 4, Chapter 4] and desire to stop existing [Arifureta Volume 5, Chapter 2]), so I mention this since it can be useful later if needed.

Spoiler: Divine Edict Scaling

Divine Edict is really powerful spirit magic with a mechanic that make it stronger when the user uses their full name [Arifureta Vol 11, Chapter 4] compared with the shortened version of their name, this difference in power is show to be significant enough [Arifureta Vol 11, Chapter 1] to overcome people able to resist the version with the shortened name, so Shortened Divine Edict < Full Divine Edict.

Between ancient magic exist evolution magic which make ancient magic [Arifureta Vol 8, Chapter 3] reach a [Arifureta Vol 10, Chapter 4] higher level [Arifureta Zero Vol 6, Chapter 1], so based on that Normal Divine Edict < Evolved Divine Edict.

So with that information let’s get to the scaling:

Eri Dark Magic (Stated to be an inferior version [Arifureta Vol 6, Chapter 5] of spirit magic, something show by the fact that even Aiko magic is above her) < Normal Spirit Magic < Eddy Divine Edict (Paladins have powerful special magic [Arifureta Zero Vol 2, Chapter 3] that make them stronger [Arifureta Zero Vol 5, Chapter 2] than other Atavists, on top of the fact that Divine Edict is said to be really powerful [Arifureta Vol 11, Chapter 4] spirit magic) < Eddy Maker Divine Edict < Apostleified Eddy Divine Edict (apostleification boost the user magic [Arifureta Zero Vol 6, Chapter 1], on top of them having replicas of holy artifacts to futher boost them) < Apostleified Eddy Maker Divine Edict [Arifureta Zero Vol 6, Chapter 1] < Laus Barn Spirit Magic (Laus is the strongest of the church [Arifureta Zero Vol 2, Chapter 2] and a master of spirit magic, who even in a super weakened state have shown to surpass [Arifureta Zero Vol 5 Chapter 2] the spirit magic of those apostleified) < Zero Alva Divine Edict (To use concept magic the user need to have completely mastered all ancient magic [Arifureta Zero Vol 6, Chapter 3]. Additionally, it was show that to face his power at Zero Era was needed the combined effort [Arifureta Zero Vol 3, Chapter 3] of most Liberators) < Zero Alvaheit Divine Edict < Zero Alva Divine Edict with Evolution Magic < Zero Alvaheit Divine Edict with Evolution Magic < Current Alva Divine Edict (because of the technique that turn faith in power his current strength is show to be conceptually above [Arifureta Chapter 176] [Arifureta Chapter 177] than his Zero version) < Current Alvaheit Divine Edict < Current Alva Divine Edict with Evolution Magic < Current Alvaheit Divine Edict with Evolution Magic < Zero Ehit Divine Edict (Ehit is far superior than Alva in all senses, including his Divine Edict [Arifureta Vol 11, Chapter 2]) < Zero Ehitorujue Divine Edict < Zero Ehit Divine Edict with Evolution Magic < Vol 6 Laus Barn Spirit Magic (By giving his all he was able to resist [Arifureta Zero Vol 6, Chapter 1] Ehit Divine Edict) < Zero Ehitorujue Divine Edict with Evolution Magic < Current Ehit Divine Edict < Current Ehitorujue Divine Edict < Current Ehit Divine Edict with Evolution Magic < Current Ehitorujue Divine Edict with Evolution Magic < Soul Shell (Resist [Arifureta Vol 12, Chapter 2] Ehitorujue Divine Edict) < Yue Divine Edict (Is by far above [Arifureta Chapter 343] Ehit) < Post-Shadow Dragon Arc Yue Divine Edict (Her existence is conceptually stronger [Arifureta Chapter 425] than before do to dragon gods conception, and the more time pass the stronger her existence will become because of the conception)

So 26 layers

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Current Ehit is stated to be above Alva, if both are boosted due to faith in them as gods, what proves Zero Ehit is above Current Alva, Zero happened thousands of years ago.

While it is true evolution magic basically makes other magic stronger, for scaling purposes, is it really relevant for Ehit and Alva? What i mean is this, it is clearly shown the difference between ordering someone, and ordering them with their full name, but is it ever shown the difference between using evolution magic, and not? When Ehit uses the edict on someone, how do we know which is being used, better yet how do we prove his edict isn't already strengthened?

When Hajime and co got evolution magic it basically made them all stronger, hence why we break up their keys from that point, in short i am not really seeing the point in an Evolved Divine Edict, when the difference is not shown in story to my memory.

Other stuff is ok though.

Layers is a nitpick for me, these things all scale above each other which is true, so it's technically correct, but taking about "layers" as the wiki defines them ie Miledi resisted Laus soul hax, but can't resist the edict (1 layer), it's definitely not that long. Would just call it a scaling chain.

The verse is currently is going by numbers, idk how numbers and layers are even compared in like a vs match though.

 

[pfate17]

You have to put Aiko and Shizuku in hajime's party on the Arifureta Wiki and add Necromancy on Aiko's profile.
Hajime's profile is easier to read with this new format

 

[Community_Gamer]

Current Ehit is stated to be above Alva, if both are boosted due to faith in them as gods, what proves Zero Ehit is above Current Alva, Zero happened thousands of years ago.

While it is true evolution magic basically makes other magic stronger, for scaling purposes, is it really relevant for Ehit and Alva? What i mean is this, it is clearly shown the difference between ordering someone, and ordering them with their full name, but is it ever shown the difference between using evolution magic, and not? When Ehit uses the edict on someone, how do we know which is being used, better yet how do we prove his edict isn't already strengthened?

When Hajime and co got evolution magic it basically made them all stronger, hence why we break up their keys from that point, in short i am not really seeing the point in an Evolved Divine Edict, when the difference is not shown in story to my memory.

Other stuff is ok though.

Agreed there's no clear distinction being made.

Layers is a nitpick for me, these things all scale above each other which is true, so it's technically correct, but taking about "layers" as the wiki defines them ie Miledi resisted Laus soul hax, but can't resist the edict (1 layer), it's definitely not that long. Would just call it a scaling chain.
The verse is currently is going by numbers, idk how numbers and layers are even compared in like a vs match though.

They aren't mutual exclusive. Layers just has to do with relative effectiveness or ineffectiveness of a particular ability or technique. But a layer is created through resistance.

If I resist spiritual attacks and then am unable to resist another spiritual attack (barring extenuating circumstances), you could say this 1 layer of effectiveness.

And verse can be said about resistance spiritual attacks that work on people with resist spiritual attacks.

 

[YungManzi]

Everything here looks good. Except the layer stuff.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Current Ehit is stated to be above Alva, if both are boosted due to faith in them as gods, what proves Zero Ehit is above Current Alva, Zero happened thousands of years ago.

I put it like that because Alva is still portrayed as below Zero Ehit, the amount of faith they had was quite different (Zero Ehit had thousand of years more of faith on top of the amount of faith and the strength of it being different), their mastery of ancient magic was also quite different (Zero Ehit was able to use several concept magics and normal concept magic couldn't affect him, besides the fact that his other normal ancient magic feats are also better than current Alva feats), and their power was also different (at the point Ehit already was tier 6 based on the fact that he defeated thousands of years before an avatar of the World Tree Branch).

While it is true evolution magic basically makes other magic stronger, for scaling purposes, is it really relevant for Ehit and Alva? What i mean is this, it is clearly shown the difference between ordering someone, and ordering them with their full name, but is it ever shown the difference between using evolution magic, and not? When Ehit uses the edict on someone, how do we know which is being used, better yet how do we prove his edict isn't already strengthened?

When Hajime and co got evolution magic it basically made them all stronger, hence why we break up their keys from that point, in short i am not really seeing the point in an Evolved Divine Edict, when the difference is not shown in story to my memory.

I mean, the story itself point the importance of evolution magic do to its ability to make things stronger, and in both Zero and the current era is always show as a big increase when evolution magic is brought to the equation, so why wouldn't us also make the dinstinction? Is something correct in a technical and narrative sense. Since they always use it in serious combat scenarios there wouldn't really be a reason to believe that they didn't use it with evolution magic (at least also taking in consideration their infinite mana that let them use the version that consume more mana), however that don't mean that they can't use it without evolution magic because Eddy Maker exist and as a natural Atavist she can't use other ancient magics which prove that indeed Divine Edict is naturally speaking just spirit magic.

As you said the reason of why they become stronger was thanks of evolution magic (on top of obviously their own natural growth), so is precisely because of that that I don't see why a dinstinction shouldn't be made between normal spirit magic and amped spirit magic.

However, if choosen to really don't count evolution magic buff as a layer, despite the fact that it is actually correct, the scaling would go like this:

Eri Dark Magic (Stated to be an inferior version [Arifureta Vol 6, Chapter 5] of spirit magic, something show by the fact that even Aiko magic is above her) < Normal Spirit Magic < Eddy Divine Edict (Paladins have powerful special magic [Arifureta Zero Vol 2, Chapter 3] that make them stronger [Arifureta Zero Vol 5, Chapter 2] than other Atavists, on top of the fact that Divine Edict is said to be really powerful [Arifureta Vol 11, Chapter 4] spirit magic) < Eddy Maker Divine Edict < Apostleified Eddy Divine Edict (apostleification boost the user magic [Arifureta Zero Vol 6, Chapter 1], on top of them having replicas of holy artifacts to futher boost them) < Apostleified Eddy Maker Divine Edict [Arifureta Zero Vol 6, Chapter 1] < Laus Barn Spirit Magic (Laus is the strongest of the church [Arifureta Zero Vol 2, Chapter 2] and a master of spirit magic, who even in a super weakened state have shown to surpass [Arifureta Zero Vol 5 Chapter 2] the spirit magic of those apostleified) < Zero Alva Divine Edict (To use concept magic the user need to have completely mastered all ancient magic [Arifureta Zero Vol 6, Chapter 3]. Additionally, it was show that to face his power at Zero Era was needed the combined effort [Arifureta Zero Vol 3, Chapter 3] of most Liberators) < Zero Alvaheit Divine Edict < Current Alva Divine Edict (because of the technique that turn faith in power his current strength is show to be conceptually above [Arifureta Chapter 176] [Arifureta Chapter 177] than his Zero version) < Current Alvaheit Divine Edict < Zero Ehit Divine Edict (Ehit is far superior than Alva in all senses, including his Divine Edict [Arifureta Vol 11, Chapter 2]) < Vol 6 Laus Barn Spirit Magic (By giving his all he was able to resist [Arifureta Zero Vol 6, Chapter 1] Ehit Divine Edict) < Zero Ehitorujue Divine Edict < Current Ehit Divine Edict < Current Ehitorujue Divine Edict < Soul Shell (Resist [Arifureta Vol 12, Chapter 2] Ehitorujue Divine Edict) < Yue Divine Edict (Is by far above [Arifureta Chapter 343] Ehit) < Post-Shadow Dragon Arc Yue Divine Edict (Her existence is conceptually stronger [Arifureta Chapter 425] than before do to dragon gods conception)

So 18 layers without evoltion magic.

The verse is currently is going by numbers, idk how numbers and layers are even compared in like a vs match though.

Yeah, currently go with numbers but since YungManzi had problems with using them against layers I thought in using the layers from Divine Edict which have a clear scaling and hierarchical relaptionship between them.

 

[YungManzi]

Yeah, currently go with numbers but since YungManzi had problems with using them against layers I thought in using the layers from Divine Edict which have a clear scaling and hierarchical relaptionship between them.

I don’t have a problem with numbers scaling itself, my problem is just with the fact that we have no official way to compare layers with numbers in a vs thread setting.
Because, for some reason, staff thought it was a good idea to allow both as viable scaling methods without any method to actually compare them. It’s a problem I have with the forum more than anything

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

@Expectro2000xxx I can agree with Zero Eht>Alva then.

How do we differentiate between a normal Edict and an Evolved one? And who has it worked on?

When Eht used Edict on the Liberators, was that a normal Edict or an Evolved one? When he strolled up and used it on Hajime and Party, was that a normal Edict or an Evolved one?

I guess you would say it's Evolved since it's a serious combat scenario, but that kinda has holes, as in Zero he treated the Liberators as a joke, wasn't really taking Hajime and co seriously first go around either, i mean even against Hajime round 2, he was fighting him while telling his backstory (though at this point obviously Hajime reached his level when going all out with cheatmate and stuff)

Anyway my thing with an Evolved Edict is that it's never really shown, we are just assuming he uses it, and the scaling to it is also kind up in the air

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

How do we differentiate between a normal Edict and an Evolved one? And who has it worked on?

When Eht used Edict on the Liberators, was that a normal Edict or an Evolved one? When he strolled up and used it on Hajime and Party, was that a normal Edict or an Evolved one?

I guess you would say it's Evolved since it's a serious combat scenario, but that kinda has holes, as in Zero he treated the Liberators as a joke, wasn't really taking Hajime and co seriously first go around either, i mean even against Hajime round 2, he was fighting him while telling his backstory (though at this point obviously Hajime reached his level when going all out with cheatmate and stuff)

Anyway my thing with an Evolved Edict is that it's never really shown, we are just assuming he uses it, and the scaling to it is also kind up in the air

I can see your problems with that, and they are certainly understable, however based on the setting and logic (of how they can easily use it and the lack of motives to do so) I feel that they should indeed be counted.

Normally I would say to list it as a possibly like with other stats and powers, but I'm not sure if that sort of thing can also be applied to layers of hax (though I feel like I have see it before possibly layers scaling being used, like with Fate, though could be wrong), so I don't know if go with that option or not.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Well we can basically say for example Current Era Ehit's Edict>Zero Era Ehit "Theoretical" Evolved Edict, that would be fine, my issue is that we haven't seen Evolved Edict, so we can't really like scale resistances to that, but by the example i used we can still use it, as regardless Current Eht would scale above.

However when it comes to the Current Era, i also can't see anyone scaling to "Evolved Edict", until the End of Main Story when the cast get Soul Shell, which Hajime uses against Eht going all out, before then we would be making assumptions about which version of Edict was used.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Well we can basically say for example Current Era Ehit's Edict>Zero Era Ehit "Theoretical" Evolved Edict, that would be fine, my issue is that we haven't seen Evolved Edict, so we can't really like scale resistances to that, but by the example i used we can still use it, as regardless Current Eht would scale above.

However when it comes to the Current Era, i also can't see anyone scaling to "Evolved Edict", until the End of Main Story when the cast get Soul Shell, which Hajime uses against Eht going all out, before then we would be making assumptions about which version of Edict was used.

I would be fine with no one scaling to Evolved Divine Edict Ehit until Soul Shell come at the end of the main story, the exception I could see is Hajime Post-Schnee since he become able to trascended his limits and faced a serious Divine Edict (when Ehit wanted to erase him and when he began to panic do to Yue interferance from her body) plus his will power that reached the conceptual level but besides that I'm fine with the rest.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Most of this seems fine but for Lutria's resistance to the army apparition stuff. Did Lutria get hit? Because without context, we can't assume they hit with everything.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Most of this seems fine but for Lutria's resistance to the army apparition stuff. Did Lutria get hit? Because without context, we can't assume they hit with everything.

Lutria wasn't there (she is literally other planet so she can't really move much), however her kids (actually the baby copies of her kids) the Divine Spirit were there and they weren't affected by Yato no Kami death hax (that activate when someone see him, and he have large size 1-2) or Yamato no Orochi soul hax (which come just from his yells, hence why it affected the entire battlefield), additionally if we end classifiying her as an apparition or something similar (from the basis of said to possess conception, be an avatar of the world tree like Aurlodde the ruler of apparitions) then she should gain the standard apparition gods resistances which are those.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Lutria wasn't there (she is literally other planet so she can't really move much), however her kids (actually the baby copies of her kids) the Divine Spirit were there and they weren't affected by Yato no Kami death hax (that activate when someone see him, and he have large size 1-2) or Yamato no Orochi soul hax (which come just from his yells, hence why it affected the entire battlefield), additionally if we end classifiying her as an apparition or something similar (from the basis of said to possess conception, be an avatar of the world tree like Aurlodde the ruler of apparitions) then she should gain the standard apparition gods resistances which are those.

Hmmm, I guess that's fine.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Bump? (Don't know if these is already enough approval).

 

[YungManzi]

Bump? (Don't know if these is already enough approval).

I have some problems with the scaling. I don’t think saying one magic is better than another necessarily constitutes a layer. I’ll respond with more later.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

I have some problems with the scaling. I don’t think saying one magic is better than another necessarily constitutes a layer. I’ll respond with more later.

The argument isn't that one magic is better than another mean that is a layer, the point is that one magic is show to be stronger than other and said difference is show to be big enough to bypass resistance.

 

[YungManzi]

The argument isn't that one magic is better than another mean that is a layer, the point is that one magic is show to be stronger than other and said difference is show to be big enough to bypass resistance.

More than half of the scaling in that chain (The 18 one) is literally just “one magic is stated to be better/stronger than another”. Where exactly is the proof each individual statement of superiority constitutes bypassing a layer of resistance?

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

More than half of the scaling in that chain (The 18 one) is literally just “one magic is stated to be better/stronger than another”. Where exactly is the proof each individual statement of superiority constitutes bypassing a layer of resistance?

Divine Edict is really powerful spirit magic with a mechanic that make it stronger when the user uses their full name [Arifureta Vol 11, Chapter 4] compared with the shortened version of their name, this difference in power is show to be significant enough [Arifureta Vol 11, Chapter 1] to overcome people able to resist the version with the shortened name, so Shortened Divine Edict < Full Divine Edict.

Between ancient magic exist evolution magic which make ancient magic [Arifureta Vol 8, Chapter 3] reach a [Arifureta Vol 10, Chapter 4] higher level [Arifureta Zero Vol 6, Chapter 1], so based on that Normal Divine Edict < Evolved Divine Edict.

And then the scans of the scaling chain itself:

Eri Dark Magic (Stated to be an inferior version [Arifureta Vol 6, Chapter 5] of spirit magic, something show by the fact that even Aiko magic is above her) < Normal Spirit Magic < Eddy Divine Edict (Paladins have powerful special magic [Arifureta Zero Vol 2, Chapter 3] that make them stronger [Arifureta Zero Vol 5, Chapter 2] than other Atavists, on top of the fact that Divine Edict is said to be really powerful [Arifureta Vol 11, Chapter 4] spirit magic) < Eddy Maker Divine Edict < Apostleified Eddy Divine Edict (apostleification boost the user magic [Arifureta Zero Vol 6, Chapter 1], on top of them having replicas of holy artifacts to futher boost them) < Apostleified Eddy Maker Divine Edict [Arifureta Zero Vol 6, Chapter 1] < Laus Barn Spirit Magic (Laus is the strongest of the church [Arifureta Zero Vol 2, Chapter 2] and a master of spirit magic, who even in a super weakened state have shown to surpass [Arifureta Zero Vol 5 Chapter 2] the spirit magic of those apostleified) < Zero Alva Divine Edict (To use concept magic the user need to have completely mastered all ancient magic [Arifureta Zero Vol 6, Chapter 3]. Additionally, it was show that to face his power at Zero Era was needed the combined effort [Arifureta Zero Vol 3, Chapter 3] of most Liberators) < Zero Alvaheit Divine Edict < Zero Alva Divine Edict with Evolution Magic < Zero Alvaheit Divine Edict with Evolution Magic < Current Alva Divine Edict (because of the technique that turn faith in power his current strength is show to be conceptually above [Arifureta Chapter 176] [Arifureta Chapter 177] than his Zero version) < Current Alvaheit Divine Edict < Current Alva Divine Edict with Evolution Magic < Current Alvaheit Divine Edict with Evolution Magic < Zero Ehit Divine Edict (Ehit is far superior than Alva in all senses, including his Divine Edict [Arifureta Vol 11, Chapter 2]) < Zero Ehitorujue Divine Edict < Zero Ehit Divine Edict with Evolution Magic < Vol 6 Laus Barn Spirit Magic (By giving his all he was able to resist [Arifureta Zero Vol 6, Chapter 1] Ehit Divine Edict) < Zero Ehitorujue Divine Edict with Evolution Magic < Current Ehit Divine Edict < Current Ehitorujue Divine Edict < Current Ehit Divine Edict with Evolution Magic < Current Ehitorujue Divine Edict with Evolution Magic < Soul Shell (Resist [Arifureta Vol 12, Chapter 2] Ehitorujue Divine Edict) < Yue Divine Edict (Is by far above [Arifureta Chapter 343] Ehit) < Post-Shadow Dragon Arc Yue Divine Edict (Her existence is conceptually stronger [Arifureta Chapter 425] than before do to dragon gods conception, and the more time pass the stronger her existence will become because of the conception)

And the version without counting evolution magic:
Eri Dark Magic (Stated to be an inferior version [Arifureta Vol 6, Chapter 5] of spirit magic, something show by the fact that even Aiko magic is above her) < Normal Spirit Magic < Eddy Divine Edict (Paladins have powerful special magic [Arifureta Zero Vol 2, Chapter 3] that make them stronger [Arifureta Zero Vol 5, Chapter 2] than other Atavists, on top of the fact that Divine Edict is said to be really powerful [Arifureta Vol 11, Chapter 4] spirit magic) < Eddy Maker Divine Edict < Apostleified Eddy Divine Edict (apostleification boost the user magic [Arifureta Zero Vol 6, Chapter 1], on top of them having replicas of holy artifacts to futher boost them) < Apostleified Eddy Maker Divine Edict [Arifureta Zero Vol 6, Chapter 1] < Laus Barn Spirit Magic (Laus is the strongest of the church [Arifureta Zero Vol 2, Chapter 2] and a master of spirit magic, who even in a super weakened state have shown to surpass [Arifureta Zero Vol 5 Chapter 2] the spirit magic of those apostleified) < Zero Alva Divine Edict (To use concept magic the user need to have completely mastered all ancient magic [Arifureta Zero Vol 6, Chapter 3]. Additionally, it was show that to face his power at Zero Era was needed the combined effort [Arifureta Zero Vol 3, Chapter 3] of most Liberators) < Zero Alvaheit Divine Edict < Current Alva Divine Edict (because of the technique that turn faith in power his current strength is show to be conceptually above [Arifureta Chapter 176] [Arifureta Chapter 177] than his Zero version) < Current Alvaheit Divine Edict < Zero Ehit Divine Edict (Ehit is far superior than Alva in all senses, including his Divine Edict [Arifureta Vol 11, Chapter 2]) < Vol 6 Laus Barn Spirit Magic (By giving his all he was able to resist [Arifureta Zero Vol 6, Chapter 1] Ehit Divine Edict) < Zero Ehitorujue Divine Edict < Current Ehit Divine Edict < Current Ehitorujue Divine Edict < Soul Shell (Resist [Arifureta Vol 12, Chapter 2] Ehitorujue Divine Edict) < Yue Divine Edict (Is by far above [Arifureta Chapter 343] Ehit) < Post-Shadow Dragon Arc Yue Divine Edict (Her existence is conceptually stronger [Arifureta Chapter 425] than before do to dragon gods conception)

 

[YungManzi]

Not a sufficient response. I explain why later.

 

[Lonkitt]

Everything except the layers part seems fine

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Everything except the layers part seems fine

Thank.

Any problem with the layers part? Or are you waiting to see Yung complaints with it?

 

[Lonkitt]

Essentially, that instance of resisting something wouldn't be determined that way. There's no layers, its just having a strong resistance

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Essentially, that instance of resisting something wouldn't be determined that way. There's no layers, its just having a strong resistance

Sorry, I'm not understanding what you mean.

 

[YungManzi]

Divine Edict is really powerful spirit magic with a mechanic that make it stronger when the user uses their full name [Arifureta Vol 11, Chapter 4] compared with the shortened version of their name, this difference in power is show to be significant enough [Arifureta Vol 11, Chapter 1] to overcome people able to resist the version with the shortened name, so Shortened Divine Edict < Full Divine Edict.
Between ancient magic exist evolution magic which make ancient magic [Arifureta Vol 8, Chapter 3] reach a [Arifureta Vol 10, Chapter 4] higher level [Arifureta Zero Vol 6, Chapter 1], so based on that Normal Divine Edict < Evolved Divine Edict.

I'm not sure what the mechanic of Ehit's magic being capable of bypassing resistance when it's given a longer/true name, has to do with magic that's stated to be stronger generally bypassing resistances to weaker magic.

There's a canonical explanation behind why a shortened divine edict<1 layer=Full Divine Edict. And it's not just "this magic is stronger". I might even be fine with you scaling all full chants above their shortened counterparts with layers.

Other than that, no statement of one magic being superior to another constitutes a layer, and at most we'd just consider it to be unquantifiably high above the standard for their layer.

For instance; they have 5 actual layers, but character's magic scale <<<<<<<<<<< Above those layers and would probably work on someone else with 5 layers of resistance.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

I'm not sure what the mechanic of Ehit's magic being capable of bypassing resistance when it's given a longer/true name, has to do with magic that's stated to be stronger generally bypassing resistances to weaker magic.

There's a canonical explanation behind why a shortened divine edict<1 layer=Full Divine Edict. And it's not just "this magic is stronger". I might even be fine with you scaling all full chants above their shortened counterparts with layers.

Other than that, no statement of one magic being superior to another constitutes a layer, and at most we'd just consider it to be unquantifiably high above the standard for their layer.

For instance; they have 5 actual layers, but character's magic scale <<<<<<<<<<< Above those layers and would probably work on someone else with 5 layers of resistance.

Excuse me what? The scan states the mechanic of Divine Edict, making clear that when one use their longer name the spell is stronger, and when we were show this difference against someone who resisted the shortened name version they were going to literally get erased, the reason of why Hajime was able to not die was because he continually transcending his limits with his will (which as we know is strong enough to affect reality and create concepts, something that he actively used in combat minutes after that scene), not metaphorically but quite literally speaking as the text itself mention, this fact is even acknowledge by the status plate as the skill Transcendence that let him surpass his limits and reach the strength of gods.

Then on top of the name length mechanic there is also involved the mechanic of evolution magic, which is literally explained as the ability to manipulate information to increse the level of any power, and we not only know that this increase is a considerably (as despicted like literally every single time evolution magic is involved) but we even know is big enough to let an ancient magic affect someone that resist non-evolved ancient magic and rise the resistance of someone to block ancient magic.

And then through the scaling chain is explained the reason of why x character is above y character with more scans showing the specific interaction between their spirit magic.

 

[YungManzi]

Evolved magic can be used to gain resistance, but none of that addresses my original argument; which is that merely having more powerful magic doesnn't constitute bypassing a layer of resistance.
The power-ups and resistance scaling are in and of themselves non-linear, so just because one magic was evolved to bypass resistance doesn't mean every magic that ever surpasses another magic in any way constitutes bypassing resistance.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Evolved magic can be used to gain resistance, but none of that addresses my original argument; which is that merely having more powerful magic doesnn't constitute bypassing a layer of resistance.
The power-ups and resistance scaling are in and of themselves non-linear, so just because one magic was evolved to bypass resistance doesn't mean every magic that ever surpasses another magic in any way constitutes bypassing resistance.

It does when said difference is show to bypass resistances, which is show to be the case here with the scans (like, evolution magic went as far as explaining it with numbers, stating how with it 1 can become 2, duplicating this way the initial value, and we actually even know that said increase can be, and most of the time is, more than a double increase), and the scaling is quite linear as show with the explanations and scans.

 

[YungManzi]

It does when said difference is show to bypass resistances, which is show to be the case here with the scans (like, evolution magic went as far as explaining it with numbers, stating how with it 1 can become 2, duplicating this way the initial value, and we actually even know that said increase can be, and most of the time is, more than a double increase), and the scaling is quite linear as show with the explanations and scans.

No, the scan says that you can turn magic with a power level of 1 into 2 and turn magic with 2 into 1, and the other scan involves bypassing resistance. However, this doesn't mean that you will turn every single instance of a magic's power increase into magic that's capable of bypassing a layering of resistance.
Beyond that, the two given explanations aren't even directly related to one another.

It's like saying because support magic/power-ups in Shield Hero can give 3x boosts that means every support magic in shield hero does that.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Have to agree with @YungManzi, evolution manipulation clearly bypasses resistances, but this isn't the same as saying Eri's dark magic is inferior to spirit magic, and thus that's a layer, spirit magic is just stronger.

As i said initially you have to post instances where someone who had resistances to an ability, couldn't resist another, that's how you get a layer, not that one magic is inferior to or stronger than another.

Full Name Edict gets pass resistance to Normal Edict, that's a layer, Evolution Magic gets past resistances to regular hax like spatial magic, that's a layer too.

Off the top of my head Afterstories Yue's Edict works on Hajime who resists Ehito's Full Name Edict, which gets pass resistance to Eht's normal Edict, which can work on the Liberators who resist Laus's spirit magic, those are clear layers i think, and of course you can throw evolution magic in there too.

 

[Community_Gamer]

Have to agree with @YungManzi, evolution manipulation clearly bypasses resistances, but this isn't the same as saying Eri's dark magic is inferior to spirit magic, and thus that's a layer, spirit magic is just stronger.

As i said initially you have to post instances where someone who had resistances to an ability, couldn't resist another, that's how you get a layer, not that one magic is inferior to or stronger than another.

Full Name Edict gets pass resistance to Normal Edict, that's a layer, Evolution Magic gets past resistances to regular hax like spatial magic, that's a layer too.

Off the top of my head Afterstories Yue's Edict works on Hajime who resists Ehito's Full Name Edict, which gets pass resistance to Eht's normal Edict, which can work on the Liberators who resist Laus's spirit magic, those are clear layers i think, and of course you can throw evolution magic in there too.

I'd have to agree with you on that as well.

 

[Noneless21]

Have to agree with @YungManzi, evolution manipulation clearly bypasses resistances, but this isn't the same as saying Eri's dark magic is inferior to spirit magic, and thus that's a layer, spirit magic is just stronger.

As i said initially you have to post instances where someone who had resistances to an ability, couldn't resist another, that's how you get a layer, not that one magic is inferior to or stronger than another.

Full Name Edict gets pass resistance to Normal Edict, that's a layer, Evolution Magic gets past resistances to regular hax like spatial magic, that's a layer too.

Off the top of my head Afterstories Yue's Edict works on Hajime who resists Ehito's Full Name Edict, which gets pass resistance to Eht's normal Edict, which can work on the Liberators who resist Laus's spirit magic, those are clear layers i think, and of course you can throw evolution magic in there too.

Yeah I'm not too familiar with scaling shit so I also agree with this

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

No, the scan says that you can turn magic with a power level of 1 into 2 and turn magic with 2 into 1, and the other scan involves bypassing resistance. However, this doesn't mean that you will turn every single instance of a magic's power increase into magic that's capable of bypassing a layering of resistance.
Beyond that, the two given explanations aren't even directly related to one another.

It's like saying because support magic/power-ups in Shield Hero can give 3x boosts that means every support magic in shield hero does that.

Evolution magic significantly increase the power of things multiplying their strength, specifically weak evolution magic double the strength of something, normal evolution magic that anyone can use triple the power of things, and can increase it fivefold, can increase the level of skills several times multiplying their effects, evolution magic ability affect anything and everything without distinction because of its control of information.

Have to agree with @YungManzi, evolution manipulation clearly bypasses resistances, but this isn't the same as saying Eri's dark magic is inferior to spirit magic, and thus that's a layer, spirit magic is just stronger.

As i said initially you have to post instances where someone who had resistances to an ability, couldn't resist another, that's how you get a layer, not that one magic is inferior to or stronger than another.

Full Name Edict gets pass resistance to Normal Edict, that's a layer, Evolution Magic gets past resistances to regular hax like spatial magic, that's a layer too.

Off the top of my head Afterstories Yue's Edict works on Hajime who resists Ehito's Full Name Edict, which gets pass resistance to Eht's normal Edict, which can work on the Liberators who resist Laus's spirit magic, those are clear layers i think, and of course you can throw evolution magic in there too.

I could eliminate the part of Eri, that was put as the base of the scaling since it's directly called inferior to spirit magic, can be resisted by someone like Meld and isn't show to be stronger than Apostles dark magic which is below spirit magic.

I posted the instances though, I showed Eddy affecting Rasul despite his resistance, Alva affecting Hajime party despite their resistance and Ehit superiority to him, Laus resisting Zero Ehit, Shea resisting Ehit, Ehit affecting Hajime after he gained resistance to normal divine edict, etc. The rest of things also had a clear explanation and justification as to why were put there in the scaling, for example the reason of why Zero Ehit > Alva which you yourself agreed.

@Expectro2000xxx I can agree with Zero Eht>Alva then.

Or the fact that evolution magic is another layer.

I don't remember Afterstories Yue affecting Hajime though, the fact that they can fight on equal ground and that he is above apparition gods actually go against that notion. If you would do instead the entire layers scaling chain posting scans (and also references) and justification for every single thing I would more than gladly let you do it, I'm only doing it because no one else have done it and because from all the previous crts I seem to be the more knowledgeable about Arifureta in general (I think you acknowledged that at some point in a thread but could be wrong).

 

[YungManzi]

Evolution magic significantly increase the power of things multiplying their strength, specifically weak evolution magic double the strength of something, normal evolution magic that anyone can use triple the power of things, and can increase it fivefold, can increase the level of skills several times multiplying their effects, evolution magic ability affect anything and everything without distinction because of its control of information.

Expec. This heavily supports my argument that this evolution magic resistance stuff is completely non-linear. One instance it's 2x, another it's 3x, 5x, ect. How is that a reliable way to measure resistance layers, when the influence of evolution magic itself fluctuates so heavily from case to case? The evolution of magic is inherently non-linear.

 

[Community_Gamer]

I don't remember Afterstories Yue affecting Hajime though, the fact that they can fight on equal ground and that he is above apparition gods actually go against that notion.

This is from Chapter 297: Arifureta After III Fleur Knights

「……Before getting out of the abyss, when we were living in the hideout, there were times when Hajime vanished at midnight. What’s more, he even purposefully built an artifact to leave his presence inside the bed.」

「-, Yu, Yue. You see, that time――」

「……『Close your mouth Hajime』――and then one night, I, who got concerned, secretly tailed Hajime. Hajime was inside Oscar Orcus’s secret room. And then, I witnessed it.」

A surprise “Divine Statement”. Even Hajime would need a bit of time to resist it.

 

[Elizhaa]

I am largely fine with Celestial Pegasus' agreed.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I posted the instances though, I showed Eddy affecting Rasul despite his resistance, Alva affecting Hajime party despite their resistance and Ehit superiority to him, Laus resisting Zero Ehit, Shea resisting Ehit, Ehit affecting Hajime after he gained resistance to normal divine edict, etc. The rest of things also had a clear explanation and justification as to why were put there in the scaling, for example the reason of why Zero Ehit > Alva which you yourself agreed.

It should be largely fine then, just reword it i guess, instead of saying x magic is superior z magic, say x magic works on y who resisted z magic.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Was outside some days do to college work, so sorry for the late answer.

Expec. This heavily supports my argument that this evolution magic resistance stuff is completely non-linear. One instance it's 2x, another it's 3x, 5x, ect. How is that a reliable way to measure resistance layers, when the influence of evolution magic itself fluctuates so heavily from case to case? The evolution of magic is inherently non-linear.

The scans itself stated how the 2x was especifically weak evolution magic (which is why people who literally learned it like a day or half a day ago [Hajime party at the point of that scan] was able to use it), and is just the default setting that anyone with some affinity for evolution magic (since otherwise they would literally be unable to use any evolution magic spell, like normal main story Shea) can amp 3x things (something showed by the fact that everyone in Hajime party, with affinity for evolution magic, is able to use it and is stated that if Ryutarou, Kouki and Suzu gained evolution magic even them would be able to 3x amp things), so the point of that paragraph with the various scans was to show that literally the worst type of evolution magic in the novel do at bare minimum a 2x increase while the normal thing is able to do a 3x increase.

This is from Chapter 297: Arifureta After III Fleur Knights

Ah, of course it was one of the jokes moment to laugh about a character, then we should also take seriously that the Yaegashi family have aura powers like the Kimetsu no Yaiba characters and that they can seriously face Hajime for dozen of minutes. Though at least to give some credit to that part in the Fleur introduction arc is stated how Hajime was just affected for be an surprise attack and that he would eventually just resist it, so it really don't contradict the fact that he is above appartion gods and can fight seriously Yue.

You finally began with the After Stories? I thought you wanted to wait until the end of the main story.

It should be largely fine then, just reword it i guess, instead of saying x magic is superior z magic, say x magic works on y who resisted z magic.

Could you modify the scaling? I feel that way it would end better than if I did it.

 

[YungManzi]

The scans itself stated how the 2x was especifically weak evolution magic (which is why people who literally learned it like a day or half a day ago [Hajime party at the point of that scan] was able to use it), and is just the default setting that anyone with some affinity for evolution magic (since otherwise they would literally be unable to use any evolution magic spell, like normal main story Shea) can amp 3x things (something showed by the fact that everyone in Hajime party, with affinity for evolution magic, is able to use it and is stated that if Ryutarou, Kouki and Suzu gained evolution magic even them would be able to 3x amp things), so the point of that paragraph with the various scans was to show that literally the worst type of evolution magic in the novel do at bare minimum a 2x increase while the normal thing is able to do a 3x increase.

This is well and fine, but which version of evolution magic is shown to bypass previous resistance? Is it the weak version or the stronger version? How do you know which version it is? ect.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

This is well and fine, but which version of evolution magic is shown to bypass previous resistance? Is it the weak version or the stronger version? How do you know which version it is? ect.

For lowballing purposes should likely just be used the 2x increase, at least when I did the scaling I just considered it like that, the 3x increase while valid would make things more complicated and the scaling using evolution magic already was considered as a possible (from what I remeber was the conclusion after the talk with Pegasus) so better not make it more complicated.