Yuuichi Katagiri Intelligence Downgrade

[TheHuntsman1001]

I just recently come across this I realized that Yuuichi should not be a Genius rated character.

Yuuichi Katagiri's Intelligence rating should be changed from "Genius" to "Possibly Gifted" or "At Least Above Average".

Genius: Individuals with an exceptional capacity for knowledge and intelligence, usually in one area of varying depth. This level of intellect is the level of real-world geniuses, polymaths, and genuinely extremely prominent intellectuals, and, in the absence of better feats, should be the default intelligence category for fictional characters with exceptional or superhuman intelligence.

This seems to fairly clearly not apply to Yuuichi for a number of reasons. Mainly, his Manipulation skills are treated as a separate ability as part of Social Influencing and not as a direct indicator of his intelligence. His profile also actively contradicts him having a Genius rating in the explanation section.

He is not even close to the cognitive abilities of someone like Kei Shinomiya. He has poor grades, and he doesn't show impressive learning ability. His strategies and manipulation efforts often succeed because his opponents underestimate him rather than because he actually outsmarts them. This is all stated on his profile already.

(Yuuichi could be considered one of the most if not the most intelligent character in the series. Despite his intelligence and triumphant win over Kei Shinomiya, he claims that the latter is way more better than him in terms of cognitive skills. He states that he didn't win because he was smart, since his school grades are much lower than even Makoto Shibe. His ability to manipulate people and form complex plots around these manipulations is extraordinary. Yuuichi often allows himself to be underestimated by his adversaries as a means to deceive them. While perhaps not as technically knowledgeable as Tenji, Yuuichi has a wealth of practical knowledge and a deep understanding of the shady underworld. His machinations are rarely seen through unless they are allowed to be revealed as a part of a grander scheme)

This does not match the requirements for a Genius given that Yuuichi does not have an exceptional capacity for knowledge and intelligence, he does not have a level of intellect comparable to a real-world polymath, and he is never shown to be superhuman in terms of intelligence given others in his own series are stated to be more intelligent than he is.

This much closer aligns with a lower intelligence rating with the possibility of adding "Gifted in Manipulation" in addition to his overall rating.

Above Average actually fits this well if we say "Above Average, Gifted in Manipulation" given that he doesn't stand out intellectually or academically but has shown to be more capable as a manipulator.

Above Average: Characters that show greater cognitive ability than the norm, but do not particularly stand out in any intellectual or academic fields.

Gifted: Characters who demonstrate high reasoning ability, can master difficult concepts with few repetitions, and display high performance capability or notable mastery in intellectual or specific academic fields, which makes them equivalent to real-world experts in these areas.

Other characters who are strong manipulators such as Lelouch vi Brittannia, Johan Liebert, Light Yagami, Sosuke Aizen, Ayanokouji Kiyotaka, all have strong intelligence feats outside just manipulation and social influence which Yuuichi doesn't have. Therefore, it should make sense for Yuuichi to not have a similar intelligence rating as characters like them.

Propose to change Yuuichi's Intelligence rating to "Possibly Gifted" or "At Least Above Average".

Edit: Proposal 2: Change to "At least Above Average, Likely Genius. Average in Academics, Genius with Emotional Intelligence and Manipulation"

Agree: @Reiner04 (Agree with Proposal 2) @DarkDragonMedeus (Agree with Proposal 2)

Disagree:

@RoggerReggor (Agree with Proposal 2), @EldemadeDityjon (Agree with Proposal 2), @DeltaStriker22 (Agree with Proposal 2)

 

[Reiner04]

I have to disagree. I read Tomodachi Game a long time ago, and even if I don’t remember all the specifics, I’m pretty sure Yuichi’s statement about Makoto being smarter than him refers to academic intelligence. Makoto is quite incompetent in the series, and there’s no way he comes close to Yuichi in terms of cognitive ability. He keeps getting himself into problems from the very beginning, and Yuichi consistently has to save him. At one point, I even disliked his character for being so foolish. So yes, that statement was about academic intelligence. Yuichi’s main strength lies in psychological warfare, and he excels at it in the manga. He manipulates people’s thoughts and situations from a broader perspective and consistently ensures outcomes that favor him. For example, he defeated the gambling girl who had never lost by deliberately losing to her, and he also outsmarted Kei. He clearly qualifies for exceptionally high intellectual feats.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Same as Reina I disagree with this. His intelligence comes from Manipulation skills not academic ones. I can just list few others feats for him. I'll check the manga again and will comment on it if no one does by that time.

 

[Reiner04]

since i remember very few interested in the tomodachi game: @RoggerReggor

 

[RoggerReggor]

since i remember very few interested in the tomodachi game: @RoggerReggor

I don't disagree with the downgrade overall, it does impact Yuuichi's general intelligence, which in fact, is narratively described to be fairly average at most. The only category where Yuuichi does shine a bit is his fluid intelligence, so I think Above Average rating for his general intelligence seems fine.

However, the reason why we rank Yuuichi as a Genius is mostly because of his emotional intelligence, social intelligence, manipulative techniques, deceptive measures, reasoning, etc., i.e., everything which deviates from Yuuichi's general intelligence narrative.

So, I think,

"At least Above Average in general, Genius emotionally, socially, in manipulation and deception, inferencing, foreseeing" with the current reasoning should be fine.

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

I have to disagree. I read Tomodachi Game a long time ago, and even if I don’t remember all the specifics, I’m pretty sure Yuichi’s statement about Makoto being smarter than him refers to academic intelligence. Makoto is quite incompetent in the series, and there’s no way he comes close to Yuichi in terms of cognitive ability. He keeps getting himself into problems from the very beginning, and Yuichi consistently has to save him. At one point, I even disliked his character for being so foolish. So yes, that statement was about academic intelligence. Yuichi’s main strength lies in psychological warfare, and he excels at it in the manga. He manipulates people’s thoughts and situations from a broader perspective and consistently ensures outcomes that favor him. For example, he defeated the gambling girl who had never lost by deliberately losing to her, and he also outsmarted Kei. He clearly qualifies for exceptionally high intellectual feats.

So 2 main things I'll point out for this. The Genius rating is primarily tied to academic and cognitive intelligence and not psychological warfare or manipulation abilities. Those fall under Social Influencing. I brought that up because it's possible to be good at one but not at the other. Yuuichi is clearly skilled in manipulation and psychology not he is not academically impressive and his cognitive abilities fall short compared to other Genius or even Gifted characters. I brought up the list of other "manipulators" as the point that all of them have strong psychological warfare/social influencing abilities AND strong academic/cognitive abilities. Yuuichi lacks the academic/cognitive side.

That's also why I suggested adding "Gifted in Manipulation" as a caveat to his intelligence.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I don't disagree with the downgrade overall, it does impact Yuuichi's general intelligence, which in fact, is narratively described to be fairly average at most. The only category where Yuuichi does shine a bit is his fluid intelligence, so I think Above Average rating for his general intelligence seems fine.

However, the reason why we rank Yuuichi as a Genius is mostly because of his emotional intelligence, social intelligence, manipulative techniques, deceptive measures, reasoning, etc., i.e., everything which deviates from Yuuichi's general intelligence narrative.

So, I think,

"At least Above Average in general, Genius emotionally, socially, in manipulation and deception, inferencing, foreseeing" with the current reasoning should be fine.

Yeah I agree with this proposal

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

"At least Above Average in general, Genius emotionally, socially, in manipulation and deception, inferencing, foreseeing" with the current reasoning should be fine.

While I do think Gifted in Manipulation fits better than Genius I am ok with this change overall. This clearly fits better than his current rating especially with the current reasoning on his profile.

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

I'll edit the OP to reflect this proposal as well

 

[DeltaStriker22]

I wouldn't be against Yuuichi being Above Average in terms of general intelligence.
But he should at least be Genius in terms of manipulation, deception and planning. (I agree with Reiner and Rogger's reasoning)

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I have to disagree. I read Tomodachi Game a long time ago, and even if I don’t remember all the specifics, I’m pretty sure Yuichi’s statement about Makoto being smarter than him refers to academic intelligence. Makoto is quite incompetent in the series, and there’s no way he comes close to Yuichi in terms of cognitive ability. He keeps getting himself into problems from the very beginning, and Yuichi consistently has to save him. At one point, I even disliked his character for being so foolish. So yes, that statement was about academic intelligence. Yuichi’s main strength lies in psychological warfare, and he excels at it in the manga. He manipulates people’s thoughts and situations from a broader perspective and consistently ensures outcomes that favor him. For example, he defeated the gambling girl who had never lost by deliberately losing to her, and he also outsmarted Kei. He clearly qualifies for exceptionally high intellectual feats.

I agree with Reiner

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

I have to disagree. I read Tomodachi Game a long time ago, and even if I don’t remember all the specifics, I’m pretty sure Yuichi’s statement about Makoto being smarter than him refers to academic intelligence. Makoto is quite incompetent in the series, and there’s no way he comes close to Yuichi in terms of cognitive ability. He keeps getting himself into problems from the very beginning, and Yuichi consistently has to save him. At one point, I even disliked his character for being so foolish. So yes, that statement was about academic intelligence. Yuichi’s main strength lies in psychological warfare, and he excels at it in the manga. He manipulates people’s thoughts and situations from a broader perspective and consistently ensures outcomes that favor him. For example, he defeated the gambling girl who had never lost by deliberately losing to her, and he also outsmarted Kei. He clearly qualifies for exceptionally high intellectual feats.

I agree with Reiner

Are either of you ok with the amended proposal?

"At least Above Average, Genius in Emotional Intelligence and Manipulation"

 

[Reiner04]

So 2 main things I'll point out for this. The Genius rating is primarily tied to academic and cognitive intelligence and not psychological warfare or manipulation abilities. Those fall under Social Influencing. I brought that up because it's possible to be good at one but not at the other. Yuuichi is clearly skilled in manipulation and psychology not he is not academically impressive and his cognitive abilities fall short compared to other Genius or even Gifted characters. I brought up the list of other "manipulators" as the point that all of them have strong psychological warfare/social influencing abilities AND strong academic/cognitive abilities. Yuuichi lacks the academic/cognitive side.

That's also why I suggested adding "Gifted in Manipulation" as a caveat to his intelligence.

Cognitive ability or academics, yeah. not just academics alone. While Yuichi doesn’t stand out academically, he clearly excels in cognitive skills throughout the series. He consistently analyzes situations and immediately begins working toward outcomes that align with his goals, often involving the manipulation of how others think and act. However, being able to manipulate people isn’t a deciding factor on its own. What matters is how effectively he uses his abilities overall. Yuichi doesn’t succeed simply because he manipulates others, but because he plans ahead, calculates outcomes from the start, and prepares contingencies for different scenarios. For example, he already knew he couldn’t win against the gambling girl through conventional means, so he analyzed the rules, his own values, and the environment and also bought maria to ensure victory regardless of how events unfolded. In that case, he wasn’t just manipulating people, he was strategically using every available factor to reach a guaranteed conclusion.

I’m sure there are other examples of him using everything at his disposal exceptionally well, but the gambling arc is the one I remember most clearly.

As for the proposal:

"Average in academics, at least Above Average, likely Genius in general, Genius in Emotional Intelligence and Manipulation"

seems like a better fit, in my opinion.

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

Cognitive ability or academics, yeah. not just academics alone. While Yuichi doesn’t stand out academically, he clearly excels in cognitive skills throughout the series. He consistently analyzes situations and immediately begins working toward outcomes that align with his goals, often involving the manipulation of how others think and act. However, being able to manipulate people isn’t a deciding factor on its own. What matters is how effectively he uses his abilities overall. Yuichi doesn’t succeed simply because he manipulates others, but because he plans ahead, calculates outcomes from the start, and prepares contingencies for different scenarios. For example, he already knew he couldn’t win against the gambling girl through conventional means, so he analyzed the rules, his own values, and the environment and also bought maria to ensure victory regardless of how events unfolded. In that case, he wasn’t just manipulating people, he was strategically using every available factor to reach a guaranteed conclusion.

I don't disagree in principle with this, but I do think that Yuuichi's showings of cognitive intelligence are far less impressive than other characters who are classified as Genius rating for example. I do think splitting his Emotional Intelligence and Manipulation out is the correct idea here since he is clearly more capable there than with everything else intelligence related.

I wonder if adding "Average in Academics" is really necessary to break out further but I also don't mind adding this.

So this would be the updated proposal with that in mind.

"At least Above Average, Average in Academics, Genius in Emotional Intelligence and Manipulation"

 

[Reiner04]

I don't disagree in principle with this, but I do think that Yuuichi's showings of cognitive intelligence are far less impressive than other characters who are classified as Genius rating for example. I do think splitting his Emotional Intelligence and Manipulation out is the correct idea here since he is clearly more capable there than with everything else intelligence related.

I wonder if adding "Average in Academics" is really necessary to break out further but I also don't mind adding this.

So this would be the updated proposal with that in mind.

"At least Above Average, Average in Academics, Genius in Emotional Intelligence and Manipulation"

The main issue I have with analyzing his general intelligence by completely separating it from his emotional intelligence is that he actively and consistently integrates it into his overall approach/planning throughout the series. A character can have strong Social Influencing skills while still having average intelligence, regardless of how good they are at it. Social Influencing alone doesn’t necessarily contribute much, it depends on how effectively it’s used. In Yuichi’s case, the way he applies it is exceptional, which makes it hard to justify rating his general intelligence as merely above average. He doesn’t just manipulate people, he deduces whom to manipulate, how to manipulate them, and in what way to do so in order to reach the desired guaranteed outcome. He also makes sure to use everything available to him if it can help, consistently steering situations toward his intended conclusion. That level of application shouldn’t be overlooked. His general intelligence is difficult to categorize precisely because he incorporates his social influencing so seamlessly, but that’s simply because he makes full use of what he has. It would be a poor decision not to. While we can’t be certain haw capable he would be without those abilities, the way he uses them gives a strong basis to infer that he could apply other factors just as effectively. He has, in fact, used other elements in the series to reach his guaranteed conclusions. we just don’t know whether he would do so at the same level if he didn't had social influencing. That said, if he can use his social influencing this intelligently, there’s little reason to assume he wouldn’t be able to utilize other factors just as effectively when needed.

So, after reconsidering:

"Average in Academics, At least Above Average, likely Genius in general, Genius with Emotional Intelligence and Manipulation"

And yes, “with” works better than “in” here.

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

The main issue I have with analyzing his general intelligence by completely separating it from his emotional intelligence is that he actively and consistently integrates it into his overall approach/planning throughout the series. A character can have strong Social Influencing skills while still having average intelligence, regardless of how good they are at it. Social Influencing alone doesn’t necessarily contribute much, it depends on how effectively it’s used. In Yuichi’s case, the way he applies it is exceptional, which makes it hard to justify rating his general intelligence as merely above average. He doesn’t just manipulate people, he deduces whom to manipulate, how to manipulate them, and in what way to do so in order to reach the desired guaranteed outcome. He also makes sure to use everything available to him if it can help, consistently steering situations toward his intended conclusion. That level of application shouldn’t be overlooked. His general intelligence is difficult to categorize precisely because he incorporates his social influencing so seamlessly, but that’s simply because he makes full use of what he has. It would be a poor decision not to. While we can’t be certain haw capable he would be without those abilities, the way he uses them gives a strong basis to infer that he could apply other factors just as effectively. He has, in fact, used other elements in the series to reach his guaranteed conclusions. we just don’t know whether he would do so at the same level if he didn't had social influencing. That said, if he can use his social influencing this intelligently, there’s little reason to assume he wouldn’t be able to utilize other factors just as effectively when needed.

This might just come down to a matter of my opinion then. I don't think I personally find this as impressive as you do here with regard to his general Intelligence.

So, after reconsidering:

"Average in Academics, At least Above Average, likely Genius in general, Genius with Emotional Intelligence and Manipulation"

And yes, “with” works better than “in” here.

However, I do think this is better than his current profile so I am fine with this. I'll update the OP again with this in mind.

I agree with Reiner

Do you agree with these revisions as well?

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

I slightly rearranged to this since I think it reads a bit better.

"At least Above Average, Likely Genius. Average in Academics, Genius with Emotional Intelligence and Manipulation"

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

bump

 

[Scrostinger]

I slightly rearranged to this since I think it reads a bit better.

"At least Above Average, Likely Genius. Average in Academics, Genius with Emotional Intelligence and Manipulation"

Honestly, I don't remember when or where exactly, but I think it was stated during the Tomodachi Trial arc and even towards the start of the series that Yuuichi is below Shibe in academics, and that, he sucks academically, so I believe that going with Below Average in Academics can be a way to go as well. Everything else seems fine.

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

So, after reconsidering:

"Average in Academics, At least Above Average, likely Genius in general, Genius with Emotional Intelligence and Manipulation"

And yes, “with” works better than “in” here.

Do you mind asking DDM to come and check out the revised reasoning here? He agreed with you before the main proposal was changed but that was with just changing Yuuichi to baseline "Above Average".

 

[Reiner04]

I slightly rearranged to this since I think it reads a bit better.

"At least Above Average, Likely Genius. Average in Academics, Genius with Emotional Intelligence and Manipulation"

This is fine.

@DarkDragonMedeus Is this proposal acceptable to you?

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

This is fine.

@DarkDragonMedeus Is this proposal acceptable to you?

Thanks

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

This is fine.

@DarkDragonMedeus Is this proposal acceptable to you?

Looks good yes.

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

Looks good yes.

This is fine.

Thanks.

To either of you, am I ok to add this to his profile at this point?

 

[Reiner04]

Thanks.

To either of you, am I ok to add this to his profile at this point?

Yes

 

[TheHuntsman1001]

Profile has been updated. This can be closed.

Yes

 

[Doggo]

I've yet to read the manga, but it would probably be better if his intelligence section is updated with more feats and scans to further back up the rating.

 

[Reiner04]

Closing then.