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Arceus Avatar Tiering Issue Solution?

Everything12

Everything12

The Heavenly Fount
VS Battles
Administrator
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Long story short Arceus is confirmed to have an avatar which is lesser than it's true form. Probably is that even for a character that appears very little it still appears enough that it's hard to pin down how strong it is exactly. However I have a solution born from my knowledge of most Pokemon media, as the thing is that the wiki separates canon's into primary and secondary, with Arceus' avatars portrayal and strength fitting well enough into two key based off these canon. These canons would be primary canon is everything created by Game Freak. Which is basically the creation mythology in Diamond/Pearl/Platinum, the Sinjoh ruins events in Heart Gold/Soul Silver, and Legends: Arceus. Secondary Canon is basically everything else.

For the creation mythology their isn't really much, as it is just that. An explanation of Arceus' nature as an avatar and how it created everything, no real anti-feat to it's god-like nature. The Sinjoh ruins event has is so that you bring Arceus to special ruins between Johto and Sinnoh and some real trippy real life imaginary appears and Arceus creates an egg of one of the Creation Trio, this also serves to display it's god-like nature and how vastly superior it is to even the Creation Trio. Legends: Arceus meanwhile has Giratina rip a hole through space-time and across numerous universe to try and reach Arceus for revenge, it fails and Arceus isekai's the player character to clean up the mess, once that's done and you have caught all the Pokemon it brings you to it's realm and fights for a bit before deciding your worthy to command one of it's avatars. It also visits you in your dream and has you face challenges for rewards, even creating copies of the Creation Trio to face. Basically no real anti-feats, just god-like nature.

Arceus is the "God who transcends everything", whose realm is far beyond both the infinite space (which consists of parallel universes and directions) and time and the Distortion World, which lacks time and direction.
Click to expand...

Currently this is rated as Low 1-C, however, I suggest with the additional context that all the anti-feats no longer are acknowledged as part of the primary canon key that it can be Possibly Low 1-A based on it's nature of transcending everything and creating it's realm beyond space and time making it above dimensionality.

As for it's secondary canon key it's probably best to just scale it to the Creation Trio as even at it's worst in the Jewel of Life or the Adventure's manga it's always treated as superior to the Creation Trio, able to recreate and defeat them with ease even if it's not treated as on another level of strength.

Conclusion
Basically I'm proposing an additional Secondary Canon Avatar that is "At least 2-B, likely 2-A" and a Primary Canon Avatar that is "Low 1-C, Possibly Low 1-A".
 
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Arceus is the "God who transcends everything", whose realm is far beyond both the infinite space (which consists of parallel universes and directions) and time and the Distortion World, which lacks time and direction.
Click to expand...
I'm not the one to decide here, but when I look at it, since there are space-time and "parallel universes and directions" in the context of which it is superior, it seems to be superior only on the axis, that is, in the dimensional sense, rather than "superior in all dimensions", at least from my point of view.
 
Could we perhaps treat the avatars of Arceus, the Creation Trio and the Lake Guardians the same way we recently started doing every other character and separate them by canon? Like the true forms kinda have to be composited due to having a composite cosmology, but do the avatars have to be composite too? If there isn’t something important I’m missing we could just give them all an “Avatar (Game)”, “Avatar (Anime)” and “Avatar (Manga)” key or something along those lines.
 
I think separating by primary and secondary canon is better because a lot of Pokemon media shares most of the abilities and plot based as they all base themselves around the core games, it's just that because it's secondary canon from people besides Game Freak, even with The Pokemon Company ensuring quality, their still will be slightly difference that can end up causing stuff like the Arceus confusion. Though this is all baring exceptions where specific secondary canon is wildly different from the rest with a very unique take.
 
I don't really see the need to separate Primary canon Arceus and Secondary canon Arceus into different keys, even if it does mean we would get Outer Avatar Arceus. Again, besides PIS, there's not really much difference between them that I would personally say would require separate keys for them.
I guess maybe have a varies for Low 1-C and 1-A for the Avatar? Idk.
 
Here's my reason for this suggestion. First, multiple users have shown hesitation of Arceus' rating, with the reasoning seeming being anti-feats and preconceptions born from the movie and knowledge of the manga conlficitng with the higher Tier 1 rating of the core games. Second is the fact that we agreed to split Pokemon into canon's some time ago, with my third reason being that I saw that splitting it into two keys based on canons was a simple but effective way to explain and categorise the varied strengths. The fourth reason is that while one could argue that Arceus' seemingly different strengths is because it's avatar's strength varies, their is no actual evidence so while it's logical it is still just head canon until definitive proof is found.
 
Eh, no. I don't really see anything sufficient for Low 1-A here at all. All I see are statements of the generic "Beyond space and time" variety, which obviously don't suffice, and Giratina being incapable of reaching into his realm doesn't really... add much, at all.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
Eh, no. I don't really see anything sufficient for Low 1-A here at all. All I see are statements of the generic "Beyond space and time" variety, which obviously don't suffice, and Giratina being incapable of reaching into his realm doesn't really... add much, at all.
Click to expand...
seeing the wording in the Tier System for Low 1-A, specifically this part "As a general rule-of-thumb, statements of being "above dimensions" and the like, whenever validly indicating a superiority over higher dimensions, fall under this tier without further context." confuses me now seeing this answer..........not disagreeing tho, since you were the one who made the revision of the tier system i have to ask, wouldn't the wording in the tiering system page make such statements Low 1-A by default? pardon if this is a silly question, i am just a little confused about what counts as a "problem" for reaching Low 1-A and what is "valid", if it is not much trouble, could you explain a little bit further on what the problem for this case is?
 
omegabronic said:
seeing the wording in the Tier System for Low 1-A, specifically this part "As a general rule-of-thumb, statements of being "above dimensions" and the like, whenever validly indicating a superiority over higher dimensions, fall under this tier without further context." confuses me now seeing this answer..........not disagreeing tho, since you were the one who made the revision of the tier system i have to ask, wouldn't the wording in the tiering system page make such statements Low 1-A by default? pardon if this is a silly question, i am just a little confused about what counts as a "problem" for reaching Low 1-A and what is "valid", if it is not much trouble, could you explain a little bit further on what the problem for this case is?
Click to expand...
Dimensions. The axes not space and time. Superiority on all possible axes would be required.
 
omegabronic said:
seeing the wording in the Tier System for Low 1-A, specifically this part "As a general rule-of-thumb, statements of being "above dimensions" and the like, whenever validly indicating a superiority over higher dimensions, fall under this tier without further context." confuses me now seeing this answer..........not disagreeing tho, since you were the one who made the revision of the tier system i have to ask, wouldn't the wording in the tiering system page make such statements Low 1-A by default? pardon if this is a silly question, i am just a little confused about what counts as a "problem" for reaching Low 1-A and what is "valid", if it is not much trouble, could you explain a little bit further on what the problem for this case is?
Click to expand...
The key phrase here is "whenever validly indicating a superiority". There needs to be evidence that words like "transcend" and "beyond" are specifically referring to being in some sense "vaster" than anything that's bound by dimensionality.
 
Would the abilities between avatars also be separated into keys? If they are different enough to warrant a key separation
 
Pretty much all of Arceus' abilities comes from either primary canon or the Jewel of Life, but every single ability that comes from the Jewel of Life it also has a source from primary canon. So while the difference in power in canon is a big enough issue that multiple users have showing issues, the abilities aren't really a problem and are generally portrayed consistently enough (beyond Plot Induced Stupidity not having it do things we have been shown it capable of.)
 
Everything12 said:
Pretty much all of Arceus' abilities comes from either primary canon or the Jewel of Life, but every single ability that comes from the Jewel of Life it also has a source from primary canon. So while the difference in power in canon is a big enough issue that multiple users have showing issues, the abilities aren't really a problem and are generally portrayed consistently enough (beyond Plot Induced Stupidity not having it do things we have been shown it capable of.)
Click to expand...
For me at least, as long as we don´t mix the statements and don´t do things like put quotes from the secondary canon on the primary one, it should be fine
 
Wait, what exactly would Low 1-C be based on at all? Previously, that tier was there because the realm transcended dimensions, but in the current system that's either Low 1-A/1-A or just completely unquantifiable.
 
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