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Anos is Back, and so are Maou Gakuin Downgrades

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Spend, what, a minute max loading the profile, loading it into source, copy/pasting the explanation of Order Gods into the concept Manipulation section, and hit 2 buttons to make the edit, easy 1-2 minute process and 3 minutes max if your computer is garbage
 
It's incredible this thread has so many comments when it boils down to

Non Anos supporters: "Why is there no explanation for type 1"

Anos supporters: "It's coming and also on the profile but in an entirely different section listed under an entirely different ability"

Non Anos supporters: "Okay can we fix that"

Anos supporters: "No you're being spiteful and interpereting things to spitefully downgrade Anos"

Non Anos supporters: "What?"
 
Page deletion requested. I was not even fine with the page being added, we don't even have any explanation page or even verse page.
 
deonment said:
That doesn't make it type 2, changing the parameters of a spell is not the same as changing reality itself, you are changing what the spell that will then go on to change reality does, not actually changing reality, using the comparison I said before, upcasting/using metamagic in dnd isn't the same as changing the magic system itself, one changes the behavior of a spell, which wouldn't be type 2, the other changes the logic and workings of all magical abilities altogether (not that dnd, has info manip based off this to my knowledge, but the comparison still holds water)
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They're not changing the spell, they're changing the formula. A spell formula is a blueprint for the spell itself. Destroying the blueprint destroys the spell, changing the blueprint changes the spell. Skilled casters can even interfere with their opponents spells by editing that blueprint.
deonment said:
That isn't what the intent there is, it is referring to verses where the magic system is based upon editing the underlying information of reality to produce magical effects, which is not the case here.
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The way it's described doesn't fit in with what you're saying though. One describes it as a part of mundane magical abilities, the other is referring to directly changing reality by changing information. What you're saying fits into the latter. Editing information to produce magic effect =/= editing the core information of magic to change it's function.
I highly value your opinion though so if someone knowledgeable could confirm that was the intent then I can drop it.
 
Tatsumi504 said:
Try to read it next time? Evansmana is a weapon forged specifically tonegate Anos powers.
Despite this, Anos was perfectly capable of reviving abd regenerating his source even when Evansmana had already negated Jerga's regeneration
Click to expand...
Yes, it "negates his immortality" in the sense that it pierces his source, which is the thing that makes him immortal. That is just an inherent weakness of type 8 immortality, not "negation" of any kind.

Tatsumi504 said:
A downgrade done by manipulating the vagueness of the CM description, nice.

And now you're trying to manipulate what DT said.
In the usual sense, a concept of x is expected to govern all x in the world.
A concept of fire governs all fire in the world at once.
A concept of water governs all water in the world at once.
And a concept of Naruto Uzumaki would govern all Naruto Uzumaki in the world at once, even if there is at the moment only one. If there were more, it would govern all.

In contrast, a personal concept doesn't govern all of something, but just one thing in particular.
If you point a weapon that destroys personal concepts at fire and destroy the fire concept with it, only that one fire will be erased. All other fire in existence is fine.

DontTalkDT once again;
A type 1 / 2 concept can only have a single object participate in it, but it would still be the universal concept. (As in, if a duplicate of the object were to be created, it would then participate in that same concept.)
Personal concepts are concepts which, by definition, only govern specific aspects about your personal existence, it doesn’t reference “scope” to mean a singular person, it’s referencing “scope” in the sphere of influence it defines, for an example; the personal conceptualization of emotions would be a considered as a Type 3 Concept since it only defines the emotions of someone, it wouldn’t define that person’s existence, ability of thought etc, nor define the personal emotions of everyone else. It’s by its sheer existence unable to be anything above Type 3 since it doesn’t define anything else within that “sphere of influence” of emotions.
What DT said is a concept that doesn't govern a set of things even if that set is only 1 thing but rather governs something very specific, then that concept is type 3.

The Source governs all aspects of the individual, its sphere of influence is the individual, the set it governs is the individual. It defines everything about the individual not something specific about it so it isn't type 3.
The source also fits the description for type 1 which alone proves it's not type 3.
Click to expand...
So where is the evidence that, if a copy of a person is made, that their source would continue governing all duplicates of that person? Because you have yet to prove that, and that's what DT is using as the basis for what is and isn't a personal concept.

The fact that the source governs multiple things about a person is meaningless, since that applies to all type 3 concepts. The concept of a single apple governs the skin, stem, core, and so on, but just because it governs multiple things doesn't mean it's type 2 or 1. And on that note, what exactly would make sources type 1 and not just type 2 even if this logic did apply to them?

Oblivion_Of_The_Endless said:
Yeah but Elde said gods themselves, who are order/concepts, still have their own sources. Then Mokou said they dont (?)
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No, my point was that the source isn't governing a type 1 concept, since gods don't have type 1 AE. They're only said to embody order, and are not literally order itself.

@deonment covered the type 2 info stuff pretty well so I won't bother with that.
 
Blackcurrant91 said:
I am not being spiteful here, it's interesting how you suddenly consider this a downgrade now when you where saying type 1 isn't better then type 3.

All I am asking for is a sufficient explanation for type 1 which doesn't exist in the section where you mention it like its not hard to understand.
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I can't fathom what you're insinuating in the first part and i didn't say you were being spiteful.

It doesn't need to be there. It's already clarified that the source is type 1. You're just asking to add unnecessary clutter to the profile.

The source is the concept that makes people what they are (it defines their whole existence not just a specific part of it thus it governs everything in it's influence). Erasing a person doesn't erase the source (Is independent of the individual). Affecting the source affects the individual and the individual can't exist without the source (The object it governs is dependent on it).

Either y'all wait so that sufficient material to make an explanation page can be translated or you stay away. They're thousands of other profiles with dodowater scans and descriptions. Go resolve those first. We can't make a blog that simply only talks about the source
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
No, my point was that the source isn't governing a type 1 concept, since gods don't have type 1 AE. They're only said to embody order, and are not literally order itself.
Click to expand...
When Anos turned the god of destruction into a weapon and limited its power, the order/concept of destruction got distorted across the world, and when Anos destroyed Nousgalia the whole world would have been destroyed as well if Anos didn't quickly resurrect him back. This seems to imply that the gods are the orders themselves. Then there is Jerga who became a concept after turning himself into order, which is then stated to be something lesser than the divine order of the gods.

And why did embodiment statements stop being Type 1?
 
Oblivion_Of_The_Endless said:
When Anos turned the god of destruction into a weapon and limited its power, the order/concept of destruction got distorted across the world, and when Anos destroyed Nousgalia the whole world would have been destroyed as well if Anos didn't quickly resurrect him back. This seems to imply that the gods are the orders themselves. Then there is Jerga who became a concept after turning himself into order, which is then stated to be something lesser than the divine order of the gods.
Click to expand...
Gods can sustain order without literally being order. Just think of all the feats where a person dies, and a pocket dimension collapses as a result; We don't typically treat that as the person literally being the dimension itself, so I'm not sure why it would suddenly apply to gods. Also, Jerga turning himself into order seems like it wouldn't scale to anyone, even if the order he turns into is "lesser" than that of the gods.

Oblivion_Of_The_Endless said:
And why did embodiment statements stop being Type 1?
Click to expand...
"Type 2: Embodies an abstraction, and can be resurrected or regenerate indefinitely thanks to it. Destroying the abstraction is required to permanently kill those characters, but they can still be affected without directly altering it."

The main quotes relating to gods being order says they are embodiments of such, which we do consider to be type 2.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Yes, it "negates his immortality" in the sense that it pierces his source, which is the thing that makes him immortal. That is just an inherent weakness of type 8 immortality, not "negation" of any kind.
Click to expand...
No, it negates his immortality that he shouldn't be able to be revived/ resurrected by any means once he's pierced by it not just because it destroyed his source.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
o where is the evidence that, if a copy of a person is made, that their source would continue governing all duplicates of that person? Because you have yet to prove that, and that's what DT is using as the basis for what is and isn't a personal concept.
Click to expand...
I don't have to prove that. The point is a concept that governs only 1 thing isn't automatically a personal concept.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
The fact that the source governs multiple things about a person is meaningless, since that applies to all type 3 concepts. The concept of a single apple governs the skin, stem, core, and so on, but just because it governs multiple things doesn't mean it's type 2 or 1. And on that note, what exactly would make sources type 1 and not just type 2 even if this logic did apply to them?
Click to expand...
The concept of a single apple will be type 3 if it governs only a specific thing about that apple and not the entire apple. A type 3 concept can govern many things but is only type 3 because it doesn't govern everything in it's sphere of influence. I never said governing multiple aspects makes it type 1/2, I said it defines all aspects of that single thing which is what makes it type 1/2.
The source is independent of the individual it governs and the individual is dependent on it. The source remains even after the death or erasure of the individual but the individual cannot exist without the source.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Gods can sustain order without literally being order. Just think of all the feats where a person dies, and a pocket dimension collapses as a result; We don't typically treat that as the person literally being the dimension itself, so I'm not sure why it would suddenly apply to gods. Also, Jerga turning himself into order seems like it wouldn't scale to anyone, even if the order he turns into is "lesser" than that of the gods.
Click to expand...
Sure, but Eugo calls himself the providence of the world (and anos does the same) instead of him being just a manifestation or a representation of the real thing, with him going as far as saying "the providence is crumbling" after his "body" is harmed. And this is in reference to this statement about order, which tells me they are actually the things they embody.
 
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Tatsumi504 said:
They're not changing the spell, they're changing the formula. A spell formula is a blueprint for the spell itself. Destroying the blueprint destroys the spell, changing the blueprint changes the spell. Skilled casters can even interfere with their opponents spells by editing that blueprint.
Click to expand...
Yeah, which isn't info type 2, it's like turning 2*3=6 onto 2+3=5, what would be information type 2 would be more along the lines of changing 2*3=6 into 2*3=8
Tatsumi504 said:
The way it's described doesn't fit in with what you're saying though. One describes it as a part of mundane magical abilities, the other is referring to directly changing reality by changing information. What you're saying fits into the latter. Editing information to produce magic effect =/= editing the core information of magic to change it's function.
Click to expand...
I guess the most apt example of the magic system the quote would be talking about is that of a verse where magic is like coding, where the mages edit the underlying code of reality to produce fireballs and stuff, which isn't exactly the case here, with this being more like someone editing an equation, such as 2+2=4 into 3^3=27
 
Tatsumi504 said:
No, it negates his immortality that he shouldn't be able to be revived/ resurrected by any means once he's pierced by it not just because it destroyed his source.
Click to expand...
Not what it says, it just says that it will kill someone and prevent resurrection by piercing the source.

Tatsumi504 said:
I don't have to prove that. The point is a concept that governs only 1 thing isn't automatically a personal concept.
Click to expand...
We literally have DT saying otherwise but aight

Tatsumi504 said:
The concept of a single apple will be type 3 if it governs only a specific thing about that apple and not the entire apple. A type 3 concept can govern many things but is only type 3 because it doesn't govern everything in it's sphere of influence. I never said governing multiple aspects makes it type 1/2, I said it defines all aspects of that single thing which is what makes it type 1/2.
The source is independent of the individual it governs and the individual is dependent on it. The source remains even after the death or erasure of the individual but the individual cannot exist without the source.
Click to expand...
Which is, again, saying that governing multiple aspects is type 1/2.

Oblivion_Of_The_Endless said:
Sure, but both Anos and Eugo calls himself the providence of the world instead of him being just a manifestation or a representation of the real thing, with him going as far as saying "the providence is crumbling" after his "body" is harmed. And this is in reference to this statement about order, which tells me they are actually the things they embody.
Click to expand...
Providence is in reference to divine protection/control, so any god would be providence just by virtue of, yknow, doing god stuff. I don't think it means they are literally the control they exert over reality or anything. The second quote is interesting, but it still says gods are an embodiment of providence, which I think contextualizes the latter half into meaning that they're just what controls law and order, sort of like a cop or judge saying they are the law; It's not literal, just meant to represent what they have control over.
 
How it is not literal after being stated twice (that it is literal) and after the feat presented by Jerga proving that the statement is true?

It's not even metaphor or anything or author is twisting words, he straight up said that.

How did you manage that or even even end up in this conclusion?
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Providence is in reference to divine protection/control, so any god would be providence just by virtue of, yknow, doing god stuff. I don't think it means they are literally the control they exert over reality or anything. The second quote is interesting, but it still says gods are an embodiment of providence, which I think contextualizes the latter half into meaning that they're just what controls law and order, sort of like a cop or judge saying they are the law; It's not literal, just meant to represent what they have control over.
Click to expand...
I'm using the providence example because that's one of the things they are stated to embody due to being order, so them being providence itself would give credence to him also being the other embodiments. And it doesn't make much sense to me that they would say providence is crumbling right after he was damaged if it was the kind of providence you are saying it is. And from what the wording from Type 2 AE implies, simply damaging them wouldn't really affect the concept they are supposed to embody (since they wouldn't be the concepts themselves) but the god of destruction and nousgalia examples goes against this logic.

And...we have this statement that says they are Order itself, and due to being that they can't deviate from what their nature represents, which is what to be expected if you are literally the thing itself.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Providence is in reference to divine protection/control, so any god would be providence just by virtue of, yknow, doing god stuff. I don't think it means they are literally the control they exert over reality or anything. The second quote is interesting, but it still says gods are an embodiment of providence, which I think contextualizes the latter half into meaning that they're just what controls law and order, sort of like a cop or judge saying they are the law; It's not literal, just meant to represent what they have control over.
Click to expand...
Yeah you think that not the standards nice way to appealing to incredulity and embodying a concept and being a embodiment of a concept both has different meaning.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Gods can sustain order without literally being order. Just think of all the feats where a person dies, and a pocket dimension collapses as a result; We don't typically treat that as the person literally being the dimension itself, so I'm not sure why it would suddenly apply to gods. Also, Jerga turning himself into order seems like it wouldn't scale to anyone, even if the order he turns into is "lesser" than that of the gods.


"Type 2: Embodies an abstraction, and can be resurrected or regenerate indefinitely thanks to it. Destroying the abstraction is required to permanently kill those characters, but they can still be affected without directly altering it."

The main quotes relating to gods being order says they are embodiments of such, which we do consider to be type 2.
Click to expand...
heavenly embodiments of divine order and the natural law of the world.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Not what it says, it just says that it will kill someone and prevent resurrection by piercing the source.
Click to expand...
Evansmana makes it so that Anos cannot regenerate his source. It even negated Jerga's regeneration. Anos still regenerated his source. Try again
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
We literally have DT saying otherwise but aight
Click to expand...
He/She (don't know) never said that needs to be proven, only said if there was an exact copy of that individual then the concept will govern both of them.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Which is, again, saying that governing multiple aspects is type 1/2.
Click to expand...
It's not. Governing everything in your sphere of influence is type 1/2 meaning if you govern 3/5 of the objects in your sphere of influence you're type 3.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Providence is in reference to divine protection/control, so any god would be providence just by virtue of, yknow, doing god stuff. I don't think it means they are literally the control they exert over reality or anything. The second quote is interesting, but it still says gods are an embodiment of providence, which I think contextualizes the latter half into meaning that they're just what controls law and order, sort of like a cop or judge saying they are the law; It's not literal, just meant to represent what they have control over.
Click to expand...
You do know just because the word "embody" is used doesn't make it type 2 right? Oh and volume 4 pt 2 is literally prepping to bitchslap you once nosgalia manifests so...
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Providence is in reference to divine protection/control, so any god would be providence just by virtue of, yknow, doing god stuff.
Click to expand...
What? No.
Providence and the divine are two different things, providence is what the divine provides, it is typically defined as "the protective care of God or of nature as a spiritual power.", which doesn't align with what you are saying here. There is a reason why people say divine providence rather than using the two terms interchangeably.
 
deonment said:
Yeah, which isn't info type 2, it's like turning 2*3=6 onto 2+3=5, what would be information type 2 would be more along the lines of changing 2*3=6 into 2*3=8
Click to expand...
I don't get this analogy. This isn't type 1. If it were type 1, changing the formula wouldn't change the spell, infact, the formula would only be an instruction manual on how to cast a spell but in this case it's what determines, creates the spell.
deonment said:
I guess the most apt example of the magic system the quote would be talking about is that of a verse where magic is like coding, where the mages edit the underlying code of reality to produce fireballs and stuff, which isn't exactly the case here, with this being more like someone editing an equation, such as 2+2=4 into 3^3=27
Click to expand...
It's actually the same if you put it that way.
Editing the underlying code:Magic is literally a part of underlying law of reality. To create magic, you have to create the spell formula- underlying code, blueprint for the magic itself.
 
Tatsumi504 said:
heavenly embodiments of divine order and the natural law of the world.
Click to expand...

That is literally my entire point, they're embodiments of something, not literally that thing.

Oblivion_Of_The_Endless said:
I'm using the providence example because that's one of the things they are stated to embody due to being order, so them being providence itself would give credence to him also being the other embodiments. And it doesn't make much sense to me that they would say providence is crumbling right after he was damaged if it was the kind of providence you are saying it is. And from what the wording from Type 2 AE implies, simply damaging them wouldn't really affect the concept they are supposed to embody (since they wouldn't be the concepts themselves) but the god of destruction and nousgalia examples goes against this logic.

And...we have this statement that says they are Order itself, and due to being that they can't deviate from what their nature represents, which is what to be expected if you are literally the thing itself.
Click to expand...
That scan literally says they are the embodiment of order though :v
 
Well well, I agree with the downgrade. I was also questioning CM 1 and IM2 and I haven't found a satisfactory answer.
 
Deceived3596 said:
What are the pieces of evidence that's being used to argue for Sources being Type 1 Concepts?

I'd like to give an expert (🤓) opinion on if they're or aren't applicable for Type 1.
Click to expand...
The source is the concept of an individual that makes people what they're (the individual is what it governs, that's it's sphere of influence).

The source governs the individual as no one can exist without a source and the source does not require the individual to exist to for it to exist as when a person dies or is erased, their source remains allowing them to either resurrect or reincarnate.

Mundane matters: Stuff like curses target the source. When the source is destroyed, the effect of the curse on the person disappears.

Dividing a source into two splits an individual into two- down to their mind and soul.

A person can easily be restored even if erased as long as the source remains etc
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
That is literally my entire point, they're embodiments of something, not literally that thing.
Click to expand...
Since when does being the embodiment of something make you not that thing. They're embodiments not in the sense they contain Order but they're Order.

Because they're Order, God's can only behave according to that Order and cannot deviate from it.
 
Tatsumi504 said:
Since when does being the embodiment of something make you not that thing. They're embodiments not in the sense they contain Order but they're Order.

Because they're Order, God's can only behave according to that Order and cannot deviate from it.
Click to expand...
Because the standard for type 2 AE is quite literally anything that embodies a concept. This isn't very complicated.
 
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