Anima: Beyond Fantasy Page Revision Thread

[Antoniofer]

Welp technically someone with finite LF wouldn't be able to restrain someone with infinite LF; I didn't consider STR 20 Infinite due lacks of proof, but if other people accept it, then go for it. Technically Gurmah and, by using magic, Ergo can reach STR 20.

That is how I would consider it, timing, Rule of Cool trope, but nothing beyond that, do as you all consider better.

By rules, it should be able to have 9 different FA spells, however its sheet do not state who of them is what it uses, it could be any combination of 9 FA spells (up to GM's discretion, as one says). I rather go safe and don't add any of them (one can also add a note and say "any combination of the following 9 spells").

Guess you're right.

Far from the strongest Aeon, but it is between the top 10, meanwhile The Dragon is between top 5, and yet the power difference is "much". I don't see Rudra winning against the Omnipresent Tawil.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Unless you have proof of the description of STR 20 being wrong or a lie or whatever, it would just create some scaling.

Ok and? The character themselves is causing it.

It's basically any combination of them, which should probably be noted somewhere


Do you have any real proof of that? Because that sounds like a lot of headcanon.

 

[Antoniofer]

Mostly because the only proof of Infinite LS comes from that piece of text, not that is a lie, just that beyond that there's no proof, we had disaproved similar things in the past.

Is just that I wouldn't call it Fate Manipulation, plus that description if for high levels (Inhumanity most likely).

Any combination of 9, one can only have 9 spells at the time. Factible, I made the same with the Shadow Masters' Metamagic.

Yes, is within the Mega compilation I linked you in the other thread, Circulo de Bardos and old forum compilations.

 

[Overlord775]

So like, do i remove the Free Access Spells or no ?

 

[Antoniofer]

I rather do not add anything isn't in its sheet (plus as Aeon of the storms, I doubt it have spells unrelated to it), but since is mechanically possible to have 9 FA spells, and the GM has the freedom to add them if wished, it could have up to 9 different spells (divided by levels); if you all are fine with it, you can put an "any combination of the following spells, up to max of 9" or similar.

 

[Overlord775]

ok ok

BTW, who should i scale Rudra to ?

 

[Antoniofer]

There's no much direct statements about Rudra comparing to others, everything can be obtained from its sheet alone.

We known that Jingoku no Kami, as a good member of Samael, wants to unleash it against humankind, and that Rudra has a 35% of winning against Yamato no Orochi (although this one cannot be conventionally killed I believe).

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

there's really no reason for Rudra to not be comparable to The Dragon, albiet somewhat weaker

 

[Antoniofer]

I can only say that Carlos commented about that in the CoB, here a small tranlation:

Q:┬┐Could The Dragon from Theresia freely and physically manifest itself through the Interregnum? Of doing so ┬┐would be more powerful than, let's say, Rudrashka? [...]

A:1┬║ Could, what it say could, it can do whatever it wants. It would NEVER do it, but by could it can freely do it. 2┬║ Yes, much.[...]

For further information, I invite you to read the Circle of Bards, you can find it with the Mega link I linked you in the discussion thread. If you can't understand spanish, you can look for an specific name and then ask me to make a raw translation.

 

[Antoniofer]

By the way, long time ago someone (I believe that it was Ed) asked about Nerelas scaling to Kisidan, so here it is (although it do not specify if Kisidan have or not its Weapon of Soul and Jūgerneth, I believe is not), is also compares with the Brotherhood, Malekith and the other 7th Heaven Knights.

Also, may I ask: from where are you getting that Rudra compares to The Dragon? Aside of both being aeons (cuz there's over 30 known aeons, and that do not really means something).

 

[Overlord775]

There's the fact that Rudra is considered the "King of Aeons"

 

[Antoniofer]

Is strongest than most aeons in existence, so a well earned title, but the Dragon as Carlos already said is more powerful, and I do see how Rudra could defeat someone as Tawil; don't misunderstood me, Rudra still pretty powerful, although most likely end loosing, it has a fair chance against Yamato no Orochi, and that creature stood against Amaterasu (although not cuz they were exactly comparable, but due to its corrupting powers and immortality).

 

[Edwellken]

Rudra was in the top 10 Aeons iirc? And should also be somewhat comparable to the other sleepers. I wouldn't mention scaling him directly to The Dragon in his AP justification, but maybe something like "shouldn't be much weaker" backed up with other supporting stuff.

 

[Antoniofer]

Hey Ed, you're alive.

Beyond character sheets and bunch of scattered info through discord, you have this to scale Rudra: "[...] In a 1-to-1 battle against Rudraskha, Orochi wins, 65%-35% of probabilities. There's few things that Amaterasu can't defeat in a 1-to-1 battle, even Imperium's Patriarchs, but Orochi could have defeated him. It have some kind of venomous essence that corrupts, for what Amaterasu needed help in order to contains its destruction, cuz he was unable to kill it definitively. Orochi would be in the top 5 of Aeons without doubts."

 

[Edwellken]

Lol thanks.

Also nice, that's really useful for scaling.

 

[Overlord775]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Overlord775/Rudraskha_Revised

Finished dong changes, will put them soon

 

[Overlord775]

and added

 

[Antoniofer]

By the way, by most recent CoB, Omega is no longer considered an Sleeper. Also, as several other groups, being part of it do not necessary makes you comparable to the others (that said, Rudra is far stronger than the worm).

 

[Overlord775]

<-<

 

[Overlord775]

@Antoniofer

I really wonder, why did you make the profiles so bareboned ?

Like, how did you miss the Void Knight bieng explicedly stated to be made of Nonexistance ?

 

[Antoniofer]

At the start, I just known about the videogame, and I though that was all. Then I discovered it was an entire ttrpg, then I introduced to it, one discover new stuff any time one read one book, and yet, still without tactics, that where the npc are written.

Huh, do you mean undeads having no soul? Maybe was ine of the things I missed at the start and then was updated, but I think few undead profiles says they are soulless.

 

[Overlord775]

Void Knights have One With Nothingness, which specifically says that their mind and body becomes the same as the nothingness god guy thingo

 

[Antoniofer]

I rather name all their powers than put a such ambiguos physiology, and considering that the VK can still be killed by chopping their heads (I believe blowing their heads also works) nor they are imperceptible, NEP don't think it fits, plus NPI neither is requiered to harm them.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

The VK is a D&D situation

Not technically being intangible doesn't do anything but buff the NPI that everyone innately has, otherwise concepts and conceptually nonexistent things in Anima aren't especially difficult to touch outside of the verse which ***** up so much it's not even funny.

 

[Antoniofer]

I mean, touching aeons is impossible for those that can't damage energy, and they are incarnations of concepts (no, destroying them do not affect in any way the concept they represent), and if talking about aeons of elevated existential energy like Rudra, one needs not just NPI, but elevated presence to do so.

Affect a concept (the Arcana) is however impossible, unless one have Gn 50 or Gn EX (and yet one would need contact... Unless we're talking about the 14+2).

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Demons beg to differ

My point is that it's effectively layers of intangibility/non-corp

 

[Antoniofer]

Demons? The 4th hierarchy demons are elementals, just as the ondines or ifrits, not necessary intangible/invulnerable unless otherwise stated. Hierarchy goes like: elemental [lesser to major] => great beast => aeon => arcana; in the demons hierarchy, the Demon Princes (considered to be of the 2nd Hierarchy) are "Infernal Aeons".

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Mind reading the scan that I

Y'know

Put there to justify the type 1 AE

Because you don't seem to have even looked at the profile

 

[Antoniofer]

Hold on, when I asked you about their AE, you told me that one do not need to destroy the concept they represent to kill them.

I known how the demons works, I've read that part a few times and I've asked enough in discord to known how they works, and the same text says they are "evil elementals", they born from the essence of evil in the same way the ondines and ifrits born from the natural forces; 4th hierarchy demons are not more difficult to damage/interact than an aeon. If they were impossible to interact or hurt it would be written, other elementals have it, why wouldn't they have it written?

This is a general problem, users just assume something is invulnerable just cuz is an concept made flesh or incarnation. I would suggest to not assume anything unless is stated.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

I do not remember this conversation, at least in regards to this. Demons outside of the Second Hierarchy ones don't have the type 8 you're talking about.

Nowhere did anyone even remotely imply that Demons are harder to hit than Aeons. Every Aeon is made of """""energy""""" which is considered intangible, while Demons are not. Also, "evil elemental" is literally not how it is written. Demons are called "elemental evil" and are made of pure evil, with the definition of elemental also supporting me in this case.

Being a concept or idea doesn't make you invulnerable. It just makes you harder to hit.

 

[Antoniofer]

It was the only time I told you about AE in this thread (or it was the other one?).

Aeons neither are intangible by default, just invulnerable up to certain threashold, for example, Rudra, Behemoth not Pride aren't (of course, nothing stop them from becoming intangible with a power, but at that point iintangibility is useless). In spanish are called "elementales de mal", basically beings whose element is evil (just like other elemental, but instead of water, earth, darkness, its evil instead).

Harder to hit is also arbitrary, not talking about destroying a loose idea in the wind, but the incarnation of an idea or what borns from it, they aren't intangible, invulnerable or harder to hit without an statement or a feat that suggest so.

Concepts in Anima are the Arcana or Baal (that is in middle path between aeon and arcana), or the 14+2 (although they decide to fuse with them, the alteration of its concept do not means anything), anything below are merely incarnations, avatars and beings that born from it; destroy the concept they represent and they are all gone, destroy them individually an nothing happens, destroy an aeon (and maybe a great beast) and the Nexus will "spawn" another.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

idk

Behemoth is tho and we don't have stats for Pride. Unless i'm dumb, from what I know about Spanish that's backwards from what it actually states, "elementales de mal" does literally mean "elementals of evil" but it isn't literally translated like that by speakers.

Not really? I don't know what else something literally made of pure evil would be but a loose idea that is intangible.

I don't know what you expect me to tell you when the description for Demons literally states that they are evil as a force. Again, this is far more easily explained as simply layers of intangibility and non-corp, something that we are totally able to say considering how D&D does it.

 

[Antoniofer]

Behemoth is invulnerable, but not intangible, of course, when one have Extrusion of Presence or something to damage energy the difference doesn't matter; otherwise, with intangibility one can phase through things, with invulnerability doesn't, and can be contained even if one is unable to damage energy. But I'll admit that Pride wasn't the best example, but it did not seems to have it in his battle against Rah.

That's the kind of stuff that is up to the author; this is not like DnD, not a bunch a writers, this is only 3 writers, if they would have considered conventional demons to be untouchable they wouldn't have any issue into giving then that power, but they don't, even people that is unable to touch conventional fire is capable to normally damage demons (those without any special power of course), is more ease to assume they simply aren't intagible, hard to touch or invulnerable than they are and there exist several layers of intangibility (such a thing do not exist in Anima, unless you count the Noth, in whose cause, NPI simply do not work with them, and one just need enough natura+ gn, having or not NPI).

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Being unable to be harmed by anything that cannot hit energy, which is literally the wording btw, is called being made of energy. Also,

>Pride didn't seem to have intangibility

>against Rah

>the guy who can hit spiritual cores with his bare hands

10/10 example

Dude the authors weren't writing with VSBW-style analysis and powers in mind. Your argument is literally nothing but gameplay mechanics and headcanon.

 

[Antoniofer]

Unable to be harmed by anything unable to damage energy =/= intangibility.

I mean, the average player can do the same as long they can damage energy, Rah is not special aside of being cooler.

Welp, not much to add, apparently this wiki knows more about Anima than any other player of Anima. You'll see why I opposed to standarize stuff.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

So being unable to be harmed by anything that can't hurt concepts doesn't mean that you're a concept? Because this is the standard for the wiki

>Rah is not special compared to a PC

i don't think i've seen anything more wrong in my entire life and doubt i will. You are just objectively wrong on every conceivable scale with this.

I'd say that 6 people who don't base their arguments on blatant gameplay mechanics are more reliable sources of information than one person that does. We just went through a huge CRT to get gameplay mechanics removed and yet all you do is push for them to stay around. I have nothing more to add.

 

[Antoniofer]

What? I didn't refer to that, I was talking about invulnerablity =/= intangibility.

I was refering to the part of grabbing the the soul core of others, that one can perform the same with, let's say, a Shadow Master, as long one can damage energy. Of course Rah special, be natura, intelligence and his own "mojo".

I bases my knowledge in more "if there's nothing that says this guy is intangible/untouchable, I'll assume is not"... But i do not want to go ahead with, and I apologize to whoever I offended, for the sake all of you, I'll drop this specific subject.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:CrimsonStarFallen/Void

Etrien Gnosos draft (that was done several months ago but i forgot to upload) is here. Thoughts?

 

[Antoniofer]

Was Sacrifice damage Low-Godly negation? Also, remember that what happens in Moth is only to Natural beings, the Etrien is not affected by it (plus, it can't conventionally die).

Wouldn't call it power to be Madness Manipulation, I think is more fitting to be Emotion Manipulation (Emotion Negation actually, as it rip off the will to life). The Etrien as spiritual beings, so you can put stuff like Matter Manipulation, Biological Manipulation and Absolute Zero as immunity rather than resistance.

Now as curious note in case it works as scaling, one of the Sleeper, Yaldabaoth Veda, has been deemed as a menance due having an Army of Etrien at her command, as is just a girl and not physically strong.

 

[WHYNAUT]

Even when you're a spiritual being we don't give immunity to those abilities. There are plenty of cases where those abilities still work on those.