Android 18 and Ribrianne Revision

[Hazzeyy]

Okay, so I've noticed this trend that people seem to not understand the basic concepts of ki suppression, and Goku and/or Vegeta powering up to higher forms for no reason.

Android 18 and Ribrianne are both apparently Universal level? Why? Nobody in Universe 2 is even close to Full Power Base Goku, much less Android 17 at full power.

The arguments for Ribrianne being universal were "matching" Base Goku, fighting off SSJ Vegeta, and destroying Android 17's shield. Yet, we know Goku was comfortable facing off against her in Base when she had her winged form and bursted Blue for a split second to knock her out.

"Oh, he turned Blue, I guess she's universal!1!1!"

>Goku also turned Blue against Krillin. Turned Blue against Nink. Turned Blue against Bergamo, Lavenda, and Basil (who aren't even beyond Buu saga level, minus Bergamo with his hacks)

>Turned Blue against Kale, yet was comfortable facing off against a stronger Kale in SSJ2 while fatigued alongside SSJ2 Caulifla.

So, using that Goku turned Blue against her is not proper validation for her being universal. Only opponents that actually PUSHED or were NECESSARY for Goku to use Blue are; Dyspo, Jiren, Anilaza, Toppo, and Kefla.

Vegeta wasn't even trying to fight her because he was disgusted with her look, and Goku was fighting her in Base the majority of the time.

Now, for her breaking 17's barrier. The logical reason is that 17 was still holding back. It makes sense that he was, because even when he powered up to fight Anilaza, he went through his attack using his shield without breaking. Even when Anilaza was about to blast him off the stage he still did not break his shield (Anilaza had to destroy the stage underneath him to try and knock him out). God of Destruction Toppo has been the only character to break his shields at full power. Using that as Ribrianne being universal would be like claiming Toppo> Ribrianne>Anilaza. Yet Anilaza fought 5 SSJB tier level fighters, while not a single Universe 2 fighter individually is on that level.

I can see Android 18 & Ribrianne being at least Buu saga tiers, but anything close to Universal is wank.

 

[Huesito88]

"Turned Blue against Kale, yet was comfortable facing off against a stronger Kale in SSJ2 while fatigued alongside SSJ2 Caulifla."

this part has been discussed as goku being stronger after fighting jiren

 

[Hazzeyy]

So you're implying that a non-fatigued suppressed SSJB Goku<Fatigued SSJ2 Goku? That is headcanon at its finest. Goku simply did not need SSJB to fight Kale regardless.

Even a fatigued SSJB Goku pushed Base Kefla to turn into SSJ.

Base Kefla alone is hundreds of times (lowball) stronger than either Berserker Kale or SSJ2 Caulifla.

Either way, my other SSJB examples still stand.

 

[Huesito88]

Well the numerous people that talked about it said so though I forgot what they said exactly since it was a while back

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

You do realize how large the Universal tier is right? Also you are also claiming that these guys held back over trillions of times less power than their base forms against characters he's supposed to defeat.

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1210353

Also regarding Krillin and 18. 18 has shown 3-A feats throughout this tournament. Ribrianne being the best example.

Basil and such are 3-A btw.

 

[Kepekley23]

Android 17 >= Android 18 is shown several times in the ToP. Ribrianne scales.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

My problem with Basil is that he nearly died against Majin Buu

And 18 has not "several 3-A" feats. She needed help so many times for dumb things, and even Katopesla almost took her down. Her only real 3-A feat is ribrianne, which is questionable

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

To quote what was accepted.

"Given that Android 18 was treated as comparable to Android 17 in the latest episode, when their force blasts did roughly equal damage to an opponent, and that she also defeated Ribrianne previously, I think that she should be upgraded to 3-A."

Let's not mention the entire Ribrianne stuff. And let's not go over all this Basil nonsense again.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

Yeah, she made all that in ONE (of sightly more) episodes out of nowhere, after being as weak as krillin for the rest of the series. Like, c'mon girl, when was all that power against Beerus? If any other characters have done that if would have been call an outlier... Like Majin Buu vs Basil

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

As weak as Krillin? What? You know that 18 has always been far stronger than Krillin. Krillin literally just recently became High 4-C. Also the 3-A is an infinitely wide tier. 18 is on the lower end of it.

 

[Sera_EX]

Also you are also claiming that these guys held back over trillions of times less power than their base forms against characters he's supposed to defeat.

Well Jiren suppressed himself infinitely below his own. I'm not saying I agree, I'm just saying DB is ridiculous like that.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Well Jiren is a different case here. Why would the likes of Vegeta hold back that much power?

 

[Sera_EX]

Yeah, it is absurd. Goku is the one who drops his guard and always holds back, Veggie...not so much.

 

[Kepekley23]

The Basil thing again?

Also, that isn't the point. It's completely in-character for Jiren to hold back. Vegeta has no reason to do so.

 

[Sera_EX]

The Basil thing again?

Also, that isn't the point. It's completely in-character for Jiren to hold back. Vegeta has no reason to do so.

I said that o3o

 

[AidenBrooks999]

As weak as Krillin? What? You know that 18 has always been far stronger than Krillin. Krillin literally just recently became High 4-C. Also the 3-A is an infinitely wide tier. 18 is on the lower end of it.

It was an expression. But the point is that the amounts and coherence of 18's 3-A feats are so small that anyone should be 3-A by that logic.

Where's 3-A Buu, Krillin, Roshi?

They have a similar amount of 3-A power sheesh

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Roshi never hurt a 3-A. He just has hax that can effect one.

Krillin fought a supressed Goku. He never fought any 3-A's in the ToP. Ribrianne fought Vegeta who in character would not hold back so much power.

Buu is debatable. However, unlike 18 who actually trained somewhat before the ToP, Buu never did before his fight with Basil.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

I still finding the reasoning for 3-A 18 very stretchy

And about Vegeta not holding back, well, you can see how easily he took her down in base form the same (or previous) episode that she battled 18.

Convenient

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Not my problem honestly.

No, he just blasted her away. Not to mention Ribrianne also fought Android 17 as well.

Conveniences exist.

 

[Kepekley23]

It's convenient. Goku entering the battlefield right before King Piccolo, Nappa, Recoome, or literally any villain in the series can kill a main character is also convenient; far more so, actually. It still happens.

 

[PaChi2]

It's convenient. Goku entering the battlefield right before King Piccolo, Nappa, Recoome, or literally any villain in the series can kill a main character is also convenient; far more so, actually. It still happens.

Yamcha, Chiaotzu, Tien and Piccolo want a word with you good sir. ovo

 

[Hazzeyy]

You do realize how large the Universal tier is right? Also you are also claiming that these guys held back over trillions of times less power than their base forms against characters he's supposed to defeat.
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1210353

Also regarding Krillin and 18. 18 has shown 3-A feats throughout this tournament. Ribrianne being the best example.

Basil and such are 3-A btw.

Basil struggled with Fat Buu who we know was not training and did not grow in power immensely. Fat Buu is mid tier Buu Saga level (multi-solar system bare minimum). Not to mention Basil needed steroids to fight Good Buu who is weaker than Pure Fat Buu (who fought SSJ3 Buu Saga Goku). Lavenda struggled against a blind and poisoned rusty SSJ Gohan, who was still Buu saga tier.

Bergamo is the only one who can reach universal levels with his hacks, not through his own power.

There are literally dozens of examples of Goku holding back for no reason in Super, Z, and original DB. Vegeta was even destroying Ribrianne in Base Form, and needed help from Rozie.

-Goku turns SSJ3 to fight SSJ2 Trunks. Trunks says Black is stronger- Goku proceeds to fight Black in SSJ2 even after Black powers up several times above what SSJ3 Goku was at.

-Goku states he could have beaten Fat Buu at full power in SSJ3 (further proving Basil and Lavenda are SSJ2-SSJ3 Buu Saga levels, below Vegito or Buuhan regardless).

-Goku stated he was holding back against Tien, his "tournament power" and his "real power" were different.

-Vegeta himself also held back against Black in SSJB, which pushed Black to use Rose and kept up with him until Black sneakily used his blade and then proceeded to defeat SSJB Goku.

-Gotenks held back against Super Buu to toy with him at first, even though Buu had killed his parents.

-Gohan toyed with Cell.

Goku is not the only character to suppress himself in a fight, but he does it a lot more than anyone, and it should not be a concrete basis to call every character "universal" when the majority in the ToP aren't even close to Buu Saga Vegito or Buuhan tier.

Going by the flawed logic that anyone who "slightly" pushes a suppressed Goku would be like claiming that Ganon (who struggled against Buff Roshi) is universal. You'd also be claiming that Roshi is universal for making Frost "struggle", yet we know Frost is inferior to Full Power Base Goku and Full Power Final Form Frieza (as Champa says he is no match for Frieza, this was prior to him turning Golden to fight Gohan). You'd also be claiming that Android 18 is universal for kicking away a HEAVILY suppressed SSJB Kamehameha.

I can give MANY more examples.

You have to go with consistency. Android 18 struggled against Majora and Shosa, who even Krillin was able to trade some blows against. I guess Krillin is also universal?

 

[Huesito88]

Fat Buu is mid tier Buu Saga level multi-solar system bare minimum (no)

 

[Hazzeyy]

Every guide, statement, scaling, and shown feats prove he is multi-solar system bare minimum.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

Every guide, statement, scaling, and shown feats prove he is multi-solar system bare minimum.

That's for non-canon Majin Buu, not for the main canon, which he is only 4-B.

But your still remaining (just with a different tier)

 

[Hazzeyy]

Every guide, statement, scaling, and shown feats prove he is multi-solar system bare minimum.

That's for non-canon Majin Buu, not for the main canon, which he is only 4-B.

But your still remaining (just with a different tier)

But Dragon Ball Kai and official guides prove otherwise.Dragon Ball Super has repeatedly used scenes and "anime-only" material. It is canon. Supreme Kai states and even shows the cutscene where "entire galaxies" were erased from existence. Original manga states that Kid Buu would be able to destroy the universe, which he'd be able to do in a short amount of time. Even if it would take him 75,000 years (average lifespan of a kaioshin) to millions of years, he'd be destroying hundreds of billions if not trillions of galaxies; each one with trillions of solar systems within that timeframe. Buuhan who is several times stronger than Kid Buu was able to utilize a vice shout to collapse dimensions on an universal range; meaning he'd have to be creating galaxy wide rifts to perform this feat. Hacks do not correlate to raw power, but Buuhan having galaxy ranges of power would make sense for lower tiers to be multi-solar system levels.

Not to mention, Kid Buu was also about to destroy the Grand Kai planet which is multi-galaxy in size.

This is all in Kai, I am not using anything that is only from Z.

inb4 "filler xD"

>referenced in guides

>in Dragon Ball Kai

Regardless, Kid and Fat Buu should be at bare minimum multi-solar system levels. This doesn't change anything regarding that universal Android 18 and Ribrianne is fallacious.

/thread

 

[AidenBrooks999]

1) As you say, this has nothing to do with the topic (Making that explanation horribly unnecessary)

2) And? Kai is not canon. Super uses anime as the main canon because it is the main canon. And Guidebooks say that buu is universal, so... Yeah, that BS too

 

[Sera_EX]

>Kai is not canon.

That's...not even worth arguing over. It's closer to the manga than the original. That's about it.

 

[Huesito88]

Kai has been discussed muiltple times the end conclusion is Kai isn't canon to the manga

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Guys, dont bother, he's been blocked