Alright, we've got to talk about stomps again

[DMUA]

Okay so

Here's the jist of it

Right now, our Stomp Page says this:

"A Stomp thread is when one character is immediately able to win against another, whether it is via battlefield removal, incapacitation or killing, with the opponent having no chance to retort with their own abilities or statistics."

On several occasions is that highlighted bit not in need to be the case for someone to have absolutely no chance of winning. For example, Ryüko Matoi's existence for one and The Lich (Enter the Gungeon)'s existence for two. Immortality that makes you unbeatable not instantly winning you the fight does not make the fight any less onesided, if you feel me.

That's fine and dandy, but, let's talk about the main problem on our hands:

Determining if a character has a win condition using out of character actions

The first notion where this has really shined to light is Yang vs Dio

Now, if you look in that thread, you'll see I did not take Weekly's side (because let's be honest, even if you like Weekly, you don't like some of his forkery), but in retrospect....

Let's lay it out

Yang's ability to win and not get stomped is 100% based on essentially getting bloodlusted out of nowhere and rangespamming for dear life so Dio doesn't just outright freeze her arms and probably pull an Adam Taurus (no I'm not sorry)

Which is ludicrous and I don't see any possible way that would happen

An even worse example is Superman vs Godzilla

Superman's wincon relies on both getting bloodlusted out of nowhere, not passively dying to the rads Godzilla is leaking out (which is up in the air, let's be fair), and Godzilla's radar teleporting getting smacked with PIS

Specifically, he would, and I am not kidding you, Nuke the entire planet Earth so Godzilla doesn't have anywhere to dodge via his auto radar teleporting. Despite the fact said teleport can go to other planets and quickly figure out to not stick around wherever Superman is aiming, and the fact that it's forking Superman why would he ever in the history of ever want to nuke his hometown over a stupid lizard

There are probably worse examples of this, but, let's just get to the point I'm getting at.

Here's what to discuss:

Should the Stomp Page be updated?

With which suggestions out of these?

Are victories via going extremely out of character valid to make something not a stomp?

Are conditions where one side is impossible to really beat, but doesn't win immedately, rather overtime, a stomp?

I won't really be able to say much in this thread for a bit, but, that's all I have to say, now you need to say stuff.

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

Yang needs to outlast Dio since the regen is stamina based. And vaporizing freeze gets nulled by aura. It's just that Dio in-character will mock her first, boosting her to the point she's much stronger than Dio, but again Dio doesn't win instantly. Plus his regen is not instant.

I'll read the other parts of your posts, but I agree with The Lich's wins being a stomp. Example, Scorpio having no way to incap and his most powerful ability is lolnoped by Kaliber. He has no way to win this. Don't know about Ryuko though.

 

[DMUA]

Wait, Aura does tank freezing doesn't it

... Which is the main reason Dio won

... Meaning the thread would have to get yeeted

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

He can fly dude, and regen and SRSE is a thing.

 

[DMUA]

I know but

The main argument on that thread was

"Freeze GG"

Not saying that Dio doesn't have quite a few other means to beat up Yang but, that specific method which the entire thread was based on doesn't count.

It's the Homu vs Bolas predicament all over again

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

There are other ways for Dio to win. Mainly Regenerationn. But we're derailing now, let's get back to your question.

Also Godzilla vs Superman is probably a radioactive Darth Nihilus vs Narutoverse

 

[Schnee_One]

Freezing wasn't the main reason he won, it was due to regen.

 

[DMUA]

Again, the rad stuff was in the air.

Either way

 

[Schnee_One]

It was, but when one ability is constantly discussed to be a win alone everything else is kinda irrelevant.

On another note, I disagree with matches where Regenerationn alone, such as Lich and Ryuko are considered stomps over being a descisive victory, by that point making an even somewhat debatable thread is impossible

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

I feel like Scorpio vs The Lich was a stomp because Scorpion only has AP and type 2 immortality to initially shrug off the danmaku but he has no way to incap. His BFR is negged by Kaliber and can't even get near The Lich with all that bullets surrounding him.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

@Schnee So putting Mid-Godly but otherwise haxless characters against other, regen-less characters is fine now because it's "Regenerationn alone"? Regenerationn is like any other ability. If this ability alone is enough to make the match a stomp, the match should be considered a stomp.

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

No. Dio needs the '''stamina to sustain his regen'''. That's the bad part about JoJo's supposedly immortal and unkillable vampires.

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

Ryuko Matoi probably stomps with her kind of regen though

 

[Schnee_One]

I'm still like 99% sure her regen is stamina based but I'm not opening that can of worms up

@Saik Yes? That doesn't change my point.

If Mid Godly is the only reason the character isn't getting defeated by his opponent, then yes, I do think so, but I'm outvoted

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

The entire point of a "Stomp" match is to prevent matches where a character has absolutely no chances of winning. If the character can't outmatch the regen, they have absolutely no chances of winning. It's literally no different. No reason to not treat it as a stomp.

 

[Schnee_One]

No a "Stomp" match is when the opponent wins with extreme ease, hence why stomping another character is considered being exponentially stronger then the other

If a character needs to so much as backhand the other to win and there's no Hax involved, stomp

If a character needs to try their absolute hardest to beat the other, often times regen being the only reason they don't lose to an opponent that's superior to them, then it's not a stomp

But of course I'm the only one who thinks this, so whatever I guess.

 

[DMUA]

This seems like a repeat of when Passivestomps became a thing

It's one ability, but it's an ability that shuts down everything.

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

This seems like a repeat of when Passivestomps became a thing
It's one ability, but it's an ability that shuts down everything.

Should HA DIO and Monika vs Athena be a stomp?

 

[DMUA]

Also, another thing I forgot about in my OOC wins section that's pretty important is matches where someone's only chance of winning is having their opponent get PISd out of Hax usage, IE, Amon vs that one LoL guy

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

Amon vs Karthus?

 

[DMUA]

Yes that one

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

Do we need to highlight this?

 

[DMUA]

Maybe

 

[Schnee_One]

Should HA DIO and Monika vs Athena be a stomp?

Yes they get crushed passively

 

[Wokistan]

I'm fine with OOC wincons making stuff not stomps. A stomp should be a match a character can't win, not one that they won't.. That would mean that Matt (Epic Battle Fantasy) basically can't lose matches, since he has a ton of abilities that would let him win matches that he just doesn't use in character due to being stupid.

 

[Schnee_One]

For the record when we say Regenerationn is a stomp what limit should we have?

Like. If stamina based regen is fine, ok. But to what extent?

Like, if it takes an hour to beat the regen through stamina? Or 24 hours? What's the cap for what's a stomp and what isn't.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

If the opponent can't, in any capacity, win the fight before getting killed, it's a stomp. Which means case by case basis.

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

If the opponent can't, in any capacity, win the fight before getting killed, it's a stomp. Which means case by case basis.

I agree with this 100%. And I honestly don't know why we did not consider such matches stomps before.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I agree with Saikou.

 

[Schnee_One]

If the opponent can't, in any capacity, win the fight before getting killed, it's a stomp. Which means case by case basis.

That doesn't help answer my question

I get that you can't win at all is a stomp

What about cases where you CAN buy it takes a ridiculous amount of time? IE 1 to 24 hours

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Why would the duration matter?

As long as the character can feasibly keep up for that much, sure.

 

[Schnee_One]

That's what I'm asking......

Does it still count as a stomp or not?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Edited it a little. How much it takes should not mater. the fact that the character can do it should.

 

[Schnee_One]

Define feasibly.

 

[Kaltias]

This reminds me of that time he tried to keep decapitating a hydra indefinitely to kill it. After he noticed that it could regrow heads

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Saying that a guy with normal stamina (by human standards) would have to keep pushing himself in a fight for an hour to win is unfeasible.

Saying that someone like Composite Human would have to is much more acceptable.


Saying that, for example, saitama would need to destroy the planet to win seems unreachable for the simply reason that (without knowledge) that is like expecting someone to commit suicide.

Someone needing to performing specific actions they have no knowledge of and don't have any way to know to do (Say like making Ditto laugh after it transformed into charizard) should also be unreasonable.

 

[DMUA]

I'm fine with OOC wincons making stuff not stomps. A stomp should be a match a character can't win, not one that they won't.. That would mean that Matt (Epic Battle Fantasy) basically can't lose matches, since he has a ton of abilities that would let him win matches that he just doesn't use in character due to being stupid.

There's a difference between

"Matt decides he wants to pull out some Hax (which he does occasionally do, just, his in character move is CQC)"

And

"Superman nukes Planet Earth to kill a lizard"

 

[Andytrenom]

I kinda disagree with Saikou's assessment over what a stomp is, but that's because of semantics more than anything else.

If one character has no way to win against another then it's not a fair matchup and should be treated in the vein as the "defeated someone with zero effort" description of a stomp.

 

[Wokistan]

The thing is that difference isn't relevant. If a character could possibly win by doing something they wouldn't, they could still possibly win, and as such concluding the match as a stomp seems strange. Whether they actually would win isn't important.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

If the only way a character can possibly win is by doing something severely out of character how is that not a stomp? Matches are supposed to be analyzed from the standpoint of what two characters would do if they're pitted against each other in-character, not an analysis of every single improbable scenario that could possibly happen between two characters.