All Might vs Sceptile

[Assaltwaffle]

Problem with that is you can either spite the Pokemon or spite the opponent by giving it essentially nothing or a full loadout with a perfect strategy of how to execute it even though neither of those extremes have ever been shown.

 

[Paul_Frank]

The easy solution is to stop having the pokemon profiles as composites and split them up into keys at the least based on where the abilities and feats happen and not give every pokemon every move, only the ones they have show

 

[Mr. Bambu]

So the first problem is giving them too much

The latter is giving them too little or too specific

I mean we do this stuff with Composite Human all the time, giving certain moves seems fine

 

[Wokistan]

It's already possible to skew matches with characters you need to specify loadouts with. I could give Saint-14 some really ridiculous guns that let you kill low godlies by shooting them and warp reality with their bullets, or I could also give him only dinky little pistols. This doesn't make his file unusable by any means. Same for the dark souls protagonists. I can give them a minmaxed loadout, I can also give them a broken straight sword, people should just be on the lookout for a clearly biased OP. Matches with characters at peak isn';t even exclusive to pokemon.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Well then that's a possible solution to moveset, but what about personality?

Very few profiles have the problem of being an entire species across all media shoved into one while also not have any singular defined moveset or personality.

I think this really is just generic Pokemon problem. Individuals like this Lucario or Ash's Pikachu are fine, of course, but just taking a super customizable member of the species in a debate like I'm rolling into Pokemon Showdown isn't something that seems fair.

 

[Everything12]

Problem is the four move limit is a game mechanic and Pokémon have shown he ability to use more than 4 moves in other media like the anime and manga with no discernible limit in them.

 

[Wokistan]

Space marines don't really have a set personality. World bearers are waaay different from Grey Knights, for instance, and yet the file is just generic marine. In this instance I can always just ask "what chapter marine", but this never stopped people from making matches with just generic Astartes.

Generic player characters like those in dark souls, destiny, Bloodborne, etc or just people in games with no story whatsoever like Devil Daggers often don't have a set personality either (hell in dark souls you can doom the world out of spite if you so chose, you can end Bloodborne by just choosing to kill yourself) but we haven't had issues here.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Problem is the four move limit is a game mechanic and Pokémon have shown he ability to use more than 4 moves in other media like the anime and manga with no discernible limit in them.

I'm aware but this isn't a point that concerns me. Not sure why you brought it up here.

 

[SomebodyData]

Actually the anime and Adventures have the four move limit too, not sure why everyone keeps saying its a game mechanic thing.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Space marines don't really have a set personality. World bearers are waaay different from Grey Knights, for instance, and yet the file is just generic marine. In this instance I can always just ask "what chapter marine", but this never stopped people from making matches with just generic Astartes.

Generic player characters like those in dark souls, destiny, Bloodborne, etc or just people in games with no story whatsoever like Devil Daggers often don't have a set personality either (hell in dark souls you can doom the world out of spite if you so chose, you can end Bloodborne by just choosing to kill yourself) but we haven't had issues here.

Not having issues in the past doesn't mean that there shouldn't be.

If anything, when we have to excessively customize characters the result shouldn't be added to either profile. We already disallow matches in which specific abilities are restricted, but yet we'll allow entire mindsets and movesets to be made up, oftentimes when said factors would be more influential than a single restricted ability? This is a clear double standard.

 

[Wokistan]

Because the ability restriction thing was disagreed with not for influencing matches, but because it restricts a character from utilizing their full potential. I don't see how giving Saint-14 a machine gun instead of a rocket launcher exactly inhibits him in the same way as if I was to say he isn't allowed to use his void manipulation, provided I didn't say "saint-14 has some rusted ass machine gun that barely shoots" or something silly.

Mindsets aren't even really that hard to argue for though. Game like Dark Souls where basically all the enemies are stronger than you and your only blessing is that you just won't ever die? Don't think many people are gonna have an issue with saying someone in a world like that is going to use their items to help them out, for instance. Game like titanfall where pilots are known for their speed and skill above all else? Pilots being in the mindset of staying mobile during their gunplay is pretty blatant here.

With the pokemon example, I don't see what exactly precludes a wild animal from using it's moveset in a beneficial way to itself. If the other guy has an advantage, I don't see whjy they wouldn't use their status debuffs or something. Even real life animals don't really fight fair, making use of ambushes, group tactics, attrition tactics, hell why do you think humans even began their rise to dominance? Besides their stamina, cooperative tactics and tool usage rose up from what would be considered a "wild animal" by default which eventually allowed us to hit way above our physical weight.

 

[Wokistan]

Coming up with likely mindsets from what the characters have at their disposal is as much part of the debate as arguing skill feats or hax resistances or something. I don't see why we should just exclude that because some people might not agree, argue your positions with one another.

 

[Everything12]

Shouldn't that is be in a CRT instead of a versus thread?

 

[DerpCity]

Sorry for potentially derailing the convo, but I felt this was somewhat important from both a VS debating standpoint or a indexing standpoint, especially in relation to the "wild pokemon" point. (Everything12 is probably right in that these discussions should be in a CRT instead of this thread, though)

Why are we using PMD abilities that are at least partially implied to be based off intelligence (They are called IQ Skills, after all) if we aren't also using one of the main factors of PMD on their profiles, that being their intelligence? While I'd argue they're above basic animals in intelligence regardless, Pokemon in PMD are more or less sitting at human levels of intelligence. They build towns and perform jobs like running stores/dojos/daycares/law enforcement/teaching/etc. Even "wild" pokemon in PMD are shown to be intelligent, as you can recruit most Pokemon you encounter and they'll spit out one liners if you talk to them. I get that it contradicts the other media, where only a select few are shown or stated to be incredibly smart or have speech capabilities, but at the same time so does using IQ skills, which only appear in PMD and AFAIK they're not even in all of them.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

snip

Well, it absolutely limits potential, though what true potential means is already heavily subjective. Not giving someone a rocket launcher when they are capable of using it and normally have access to it absolutely is preventing the character from using its full potential. That isn't an argument and I genuinely don't understand why that was the accepted reason for not limiting powers, if that is indeed the reason. Limiting weapons, when said weapons change the character's abilities and destructive power, prevents a character from utilizing his or her full potential.

Sure, sometimes mindset is doable. As I said for the High Templar, they are trained in a specific way and you can predict what they will do in a battle. This isn't the case for Pokemon. A random Sceptile has no defining characteristics whatsoever aside from "it's usually fast and can be arrogant". That's it. No combat training, no specific mindset. It's a random member of an entire species.

A wild animal has no moveset. At best it has one or two options, and evolutionary reaction will usually determine what it will do. A porcupine will keep its foe behind it, facing the quills. A lion will chase and grab. Even then, we have far FAR more data about animal behavior as a generic representative for the species than we do for Pokemon.

I don't see how "Even real life animals don't really fight fair, making use of ambushes, group tactics, attrition tactics" is relevant at all. Sure, animals will ambush their prey and use attrition. Do you know how we know that? Extensive research on the species in question. Those aren't strategies, those are instinctive characteristics of the species that are known some time after birth. Most animals who do this kind of thing don't even need to be taught.

The Ogre Spider will throw its web. The Komodo Dragon will bite and then wait out the dying animal. Sceptile and the Pokemon, unless directly stated, have no overt battle strategy, and have zero defined way they use their movesets. Saying that Sceptile will stay at range, heal, and masterfully use its moveset is baseless and runs completely contrary to the omnipresent Pokemon principle of "Pokemon need trainers to properly fight".

 

[Wokistan]

As for Saint-14, the machine gun vs rocket launcher thing is because those two weapon classes occupy the Heavy Weapons slot, and (generally) you only get one of those. To ban this would to imply that every guardian constantly uses literally thousands of guns due to being able to summon basically anything at a whim, which is clearly not how anyone does things. Saint-14 has a special shotgun that he gets by default, but beyond that he has no real defined primary or heavy weapons and that is to be filled in by the various armaments available to guardians. He doesn't normally have a rocket launcher, that's just one of many options available to him.

Will respond to the rest in a little bit, because I gotta go do something. At this point though, you probably should just make another thread, link it here, and link this one there for background context.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

I will have to do this at a later date. I don't have that much time nowadays, and the Pokemon problem is clearly one that has a LOT of layers.

 

[Wokistan]

That's fine, guess this thread can be closed. Pokémon may be its own thing, but I don't agree with your general idea here, as of now.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

@Assalt

Or you just want to downplay them

 

[Wokistan]

Veloxt, quit it with the accusations. I can see why he would make such arguments, and assuming they come out of downplay is just rather rude when there's a myriad of other perfectly valid reasons for that.

Anyways, closing. Probably just don't add this one to the files.