Alien X downgrade :/

[My_area]

I have no reason to downgrade it since it doesn't fall under the same reason as here. I already explained what you conceded on in concept. I already showed how it works. Make a CRT, this is you repeating yourself.

Yes you do because it directly goes against the time frame argument you are using.You didn't explain where I conceded anyway,you just said I conceded twice.You only showed me what Matthew said in that thread which is contradicting the logic used in the blog and also on attack potency page.Since you keep on asserting that logic then you would have to make CRT yourself downgrading him not me.Not reading my comment and saying I am repeating myself isn't a valid counter

 

[TheShieldToronto76]

Just realized there is another Alien X thread that was first

https://vsbattles.com/threads/alien-x-unconventional-resistances.110114/#post-3455213

Shall we close it for now

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Yes you do because it directly goes against the time frame argument you are using.You didn't explain where I conceded anyway,you just said I conceded twice.You only showed me what Matthew said in that thread which is contradicting the logic used in the blog and also on attack potency page.Since you keep on asserting that logic then you would have to make CRT yourself downgrading him not me.Not reading my comment and saying I am repeating myself isn't a valid counter

It really does not as I explained above. I explained where above. The page you used is not an encompassing reality attack, it's a condensed charged energy ball that he can create via ki, two completely different things. I read your comment, it was literal ad naeseum. No once again, you have to make the CRT.

 

[My_area]

It really does not as I explained above. I explained where above. The page you used is not an encompassing reality attack, it's a condensed charged energy ball that he can create via ki, two completely different things. I read your comment, it was literal ad naeseum. No once again, you have to make the CRT.

You didn't.You just said that I conceded.You didn't explain as to where and how I conceded.If you did explain where I conceded then quote that part of the statement where you said I conceded.Condensed charged ki attack which then explodes omnidirectionally?You aren't even explaining why it isn't a omnidirectional explosion attack like ki attacks are,you are just merely asserting that they are condensed ki attack(It being condensed doesn't make it non omnidirectional by the way).Nope it wasn't because I wasn't just repeating the same thing over and over again,I was explaining my points and correcting you.That isn't ad naesum.No I dont becuase you didn't explain why I have to make a CRT at all.Just asserting claims without any sort of explanation is empty

Just realized there is another Alien X thread that was first

https://vsbattles.com/threads/alien-x-unconventional-resistances.110114/#post-3455213

Shall we close it for now

You can either close this one or that one.Well depends on the staff members honestly.I would prefer that earlier thread gets resolved as it was made much earlier than this thread and it's close to conclusion

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

You didn't.You just said that I conceded.You didn't explain as to where and how I conceded.If you did explain where I conceded then quote that part of the statement where you said I conceded.Condensed charged ki attack which then explodes omnidirectionally?You aren't even explaining why it isn't a omnidirectional explosion attack like ki attacks are,you are just merely asserting that they are condensed ki attack(It being condensed doesn't make it non omnidirectional by the way).Nope it wasn't because I wasn't just repeating the same thing over and over again,I was explaining my points and correcting you.That isn't ad naesum.No I dont becuase you didn't explain why I have to make a CRT at all.Just asserting claims without any sort of evidence is empty

The fact that you don't realize the difference between a condensend blast and an omni-directional AoE, proves you don't understand the encompassing concept. Yes this is objectively ad naeseum, quote one new argument from here rn, I'm waiting.

 

[My_area]

The fact that you don't realize the difference between a condensend blast and an omni-directional AoE, proves you don't understand the encompassing concept. Yes this is objectively ad naeseum, quote one new argument from here rn, I'm waiting.

There is no such thing as "condensed AOE always being non omnidirectional in direction".A omnidirectional attacks can be condensed into specific range as well.Your point is invalid.So yes I do understand what encompassing means.No this isn't lol.Just explaining my points because you aren't getting it isn't ad naeseum.Condensed blast being omnidirectional is a new argument here.Again you didn't address any of my argument meaning time frame argument to lowball Chrono navigator is henceforth invalidated

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

There is no such thing as "condensed non omnidirectional blast AOE".

Yes there is. Do you understand what a condensed blast is, like at all? It's not omni-directional as it's not shooting from all directions. It's shooting at a specific focal point, hence it's condensed.

A omnidirectional attacks can be condensed into specific range as well.

Never argued against this point, I directly stated that this scenario doesn't fit the Ben 10 one, hence a false equivalence, but of course you seem to just not understand that. Still doesn't suddenly stay omni-directional, I legit do not believe you know what this word means by how you've portrayed yourself thusfar.

So yes I do understand what encompassing means.

You do not as shown by this argument thus far.

No this isn't lol.Just explaining my points because you aren't getting it isn't XD naeseum.

"Explaining" your points to me does not suddenly stop something from being ad naeseum.

Logical Fallacies and the Art of Debate

You can keep saying you're explaining all day but you're still repeating your same points with nothing new to them.

Condensed blast capability of being omnidirectional is a new argument here.

It is not, it has been brought up in our prior refutes, you're being dishonest.

Again you didn't address to any of my argument meaning time frame argument to lowball Chrono navigator is henceforth invalidated

I did, and you repeated yourself and showed me you clearly don't understand nor grasp how this works, thus I have no reason to continue the discussion.

Done replying after this unless I see an actual new argument.

 

[My_area]

Yes there is. Do you understand what a condensed blast is, like at all? It's not omni-directional as it's not shooting from all directions. It's shooting at a specific focal point, hence it's condensed.

Yes I know what it is,its focusing the output of the attack into specific range instead of wide range that doesn't mean that attack isn't omnidirectional

Never argued against this point, I directly stated that this scenario doesn't fit the Ben 10 one, hence a false equivalence, but of course you seem to just not understand that. Still doesn't suddenly stay omni-directional, I legit do not believe you know what this word means by how you've portrayed yourself thusfar.

Yes you did argue this point when you said that condensed attack aren't same as omni directional attacks just a paragraph above mine.You didn't explain how it doesn't fit in Ben 10 one and also strawman fallacy you have committed since I never said that it fits with Chrono navigator scenario,I was merely debunking the time frame part of the argument people use to debunk Chrono navigator being 2-B when its likened to like Omega case.So no I perfectly understand what I am saying and I even corrected your concept.That speaks alot.Just saying it doesn't stay omnidirectional doesn't make it non omnidirectional.You are misinterpreting my arguments then if you have such views from my argument so far

You do not as shown by this argument thus far.

Its just your misinterpreted views of how my arguments are.It amounts to nothing in actuality

Explaining" your points to me does not suddenly stop something from being ad naeseum.
Logical Fallacies and the Art of Debate
You can keep saying you're explaining all day but you're still repeating your same points with nothing new to them.

Explaining my points becuase you are not being able to understand and making different claims doesn't equate me to repeating the same claim over and over.Also I know how ad naesum works like.So no need for fallacy links

If by "explaining all day" I am just repeating my points over and over in hope's so that you get tired and give up then yes otherwise no if I am explaining my points as it keeps getting misinterpreted and questioned.

It is not, it has been brought up in our prior refutes, you're being dishonest.

I merely made a claim that "Condensed AP can be omnidirectional".I didn't explain how or why that's the case so me just mentioning it doesn't make it a argument which was already repeated in the past.

I did, and you repeated yourself and showed me you clearly don't understand nor grasp how this works, thus I have no reason to continue the discussion.

Done replying after this unless I see an actual new argument.

You only did at the start and got addressed so after 2 or 3 more tries you started using what looks like excuse of "ad naesum" in order to further avoid addressing my argument.You started this discussion and now you aren't even addressing it means you conceded.Meaning time frame cant be used a as valid basis to debunk Chrono navigator 2-B rating if its likened to like Omega's case.

You just expecting new arguments when we are discussing just few topics is funny.

 

[Greenshifter]

That's not what the statement is even saying. It says having the ability to change anything with a thought is just a better ability compared to erasing timelines. Better hax =/= better hax potency because they're two unrelated abilities

This is interesting. @ProfessorKukui4Life do you agree with this sentiment since I remember that you argued that Alien X’s haxes which he already has on his page would scale above those same haxes from everyone in Ben 10?

 

[Greenshifter]

Yes, that's exactly what I mean. Here's a perfect example, "In VSBW the standard assumed timeframe for Attack Potency is one second, as that is the timeframe behing a Watt (Joule/second), which is how energy is actually measured in real life."

You can only account for this conceptually and not via timeframes as previously brought up in this thread.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

You can only account for this conceptually and not via timeframes as previously brought up in this thread.

Can you elaborate? Cause the exact quote I showed was completely based off time frames.

 

[Greenshifter]

There’s also that Chrono Navigator’s feat still follows the multiplier logic of still being equivalent in concept to destroying multiple space-times, something that can only be conceptually accounted for and not numerically quantified since it has no real world equivalent.

So if you can affect that 2-B range at some point all at once then you apply for that conceptual rating. there's no division possible to quantify numerically for the concept. Example the division between low 2-C and 2-C and that you can’t get from low 2-C to 2-C via sheer multipliers.

Creditz to a friend of mine.

.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

.

I don't see exactly what this goes against though, I think everyone was fine with an over-time 2-B feat for it, just not immediately 2-B, might be wrong though.

Also can you link the scene where the chrono navigator affected all the 2-B areas at once at one point?

 

[Greenshifter]

You see several time warps appearing. The authors obviously can’t show all of them on screen. There’s also that Eon stated he wanted to control all of existence (which would mean all at once) but since he couldn’t control the navigator, he decided to destroy it instead.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Yes it does. They all need to make a decision at the same time together to survive it. The fact that they have to make a decision together proves it's combined reality warping and in no way scales to their physical stats.

Dude are you in drugs? You can't combine reality Warping to survive something since reality Warping ≠ Durability in the first place, what the creator meant is that they need to make a decision to combine theire AP and durability to survive a multiversal AP attack

 

[Planck69]

You can collectively will away the attack with reality warping though.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

You can collectively will away the attack with reality warping though.

Exept Alien x never demonstrated that kind of ability so no its a big assumption

 

[Greenshifter]

Hmm, EE an EE attack. That’s a new one, not entirely impossible but certainly odd, countering the EE seems like a more likely option IMO.

 

[Greenshifter]

However this doesn’t matter, I am 2 revisions away from yeeting the life-force part of the WoG that Firestorm and Zamasu brought up and if the timeline part refers to a singular timeline then that is also contradicted. So the entire statement should just be disregarded.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

However this doesn’t matter, I am 2 revisions away from yeeting the life-force part of the WoG that Firestorm and Zamasu brought up and if the timeline part refers to a singular timeline then that is also contradicted. So the entire statement should just be disregarded.

Just because a part of the statement is contradicted doesn't mean the statement as whole is not valid I'm pretty sure they didn't meant to say only a singular timeline destruction, this is probably a mistake

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

This is interesting. @ProfessorKukui4Life do you agree with this sentiment since I remember that you argued that Alien X’s haxes which he already has on his page would scale above those same haxes from everyone in Ben 10?

Having better hax ability =/= scaling above hax potency. Also why is this thread flooded with DB analogies.

 

[Greenshifter]

I asked Kukui why he thought so based on the statements you brought up (since they’re the same ones). So let him respond. Also idk why this turned into a DBZ fight.

Also I’m not sure that reality warping the universe is a better ability than destroying timelines. Erasing all of existence is definitely a better ability tho.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Also I’m not sure that reality warping the universe is a better ability than destroying timelines. Erasing all of existence is definitely a better ability tho.

Yes it is. Having the ability to do almost anything limited to your imagination is more reliable and versatile than simple timeline destruction.

 

[Andytrenom]

For me it's quite obvious that Celestialsapiens are supposed to be the top of the verse power vise, and not just via hax versatility.

"source of the universe's greatest power. It's where ideas become reality" doesn't even necessarily mean it's pure hax and versatility that gives the Celestialsapinen power its status. It's just an added note that they can bring anything they wish into existence.

I am not opposed to downgrading Alien X based on other reasons, but this one I would only entertain with a "Low 2-C, possibly 2-B"

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Tbh I'm fine with Firestorm arguments about Alien x being rated as at least 2-C due to him surviving a multiversal destruction in a group

"at least 2-C, likely/possibl 2-B

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

For me it's quite obvious that Celestialsapiens are supposed to be the top of the verse power vise, and not just via hax versatility.

"source of the universe's greatest power. It's where ideas become reality" doesn't even necessarily mean it's pure hax and versatility that gives the Celestialsapinen power its status. It's just an added note that they can bring anything they wish into existence.

I am not opposed to downgrading Alien X based on other reasons, but this one I would only entertain with a "Low 2-C, possibly 2-B"

Possibly doesn’t work in this scenario because as Zamasu put it before, there’s nothing about this that’s possibly 2-B

Especially if we go by the quote Zamasu gave us that outright says Celestialsapiens are powerless against above timeline destruction unless they fight as a group.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Especially if we go by the quote Zamasu gave us that outright says Celestialsapiens are powerless against above timeline destruction unless they fight as a group.

So you agree with at least 2-C?

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

I agree with the downgrade to Low 2-C from what I can see

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

So you agree with at least 2-C?

Why would this be at least 2-C again?

 

[Antvasima]

Have you reached any conclusions here yet?

 

[Gohanblanco217]

@Andytrenom @Antvasima

If we are to go off of Celestials as a group as being 2-B for changing the entire multiverse, then each celestial would be at least 2-C, similar to our Pre-Crisis Green Lantern justification.

 

[Daddybrawl]

Have you reached any comclusions here yet?

Most users and staff, besides Firestorm, seem to agree to At Least Low 2-C or At Least 2-C. Matter is figuring out which ig.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Why would this be at least 2-C again?

Firestorm argument for 2-C :

"If we are to go off of Celestials as a group as being 2-B for changing the entire multiverse, then each celestial would be at least 2-C, similar to our Pre-Crisis Green Lantern justification."

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That seems to make sense.

 

[00potato]

Ehhh, don’t get it. That would not make an individual 2-C unless you show any math proving it, how many Celestialsapiens were there and how big was the feat.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

I already explained why the GL analogy is false equivalence.

 

[Andytrenom]

Possibly doesn’t work in this scenario because as Zamasu put it before, there’s nothing about this that’s possibly 2-B

Especially if we go by the quote Zamasu gave us that outright says Celestialsapiens are powerless against above timeline destruction unless they fight as a group.

That's wog that's blatantly contradicted by canon events. That doesn't mean much.

I'm also not against a straight downgrade, I just have a problem with taking this interpretation as fact

 

[Gohanblanco217]

I already explained why the GL analogy is false equivalence.

your argument was :

"Yes it does. They all need to make a decision at the same time together to survive it. The fact that they have to make a decision together proves it's combined reality warping and in no way scales to their physical stats.

I already adressed it :

what the creator meant is that they need to make a decision to combine theire AP and durability to survive a multiversal AP attack, saying otherwise is a headcanon

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

That's wog that's blatantly contradicted by canon events. That doesn't mean much.

No it isnt. Celestialsapiens can stop timeline destruction, which equals Low 2-C. Fits with the WoG

They need to bond their powers together as a group to stop destruction above that, which would be a no against anything above Low 2-C.

 

[Greenshifter]

Celestialsapiens can stop timeline destruction, which equals Low 2-C

The WoG says they can’t survive a singular timeline destruction on their own.

Anyways Kukui you didn’t really answer my question earlier.