Alduin's 2-A rating

[Shazam121]

I think Alduin's 2-A rating should be removed or ideally changed to unknown.

Currently Alduin is 2-A because he changed the Leaper Demon King into Dagon. But there are two other creation stories for Dagon, one that he was created in the bowels of Lyg by the Magna Ge or two that he is Magnus in some form... these two stories clearly have some connection.

It gets more complicated: it's possible all three stories are correct. How? Well you see the Leaper Demon King is only ever called Dagon in the story where Alduin curses him, he is never called Mehrunes Dagon and that is an important distinction. Similarly, the Magna Ge did not create Dagon in Lyg, they created Mehrune the razor. Mankar Camoran also makes a clear distinction between Mehrune the razor and Lord Dagon in the mythic dawn commentaries.

These two seemingly separate beings went on to become the Daedric Prince known as Mehrunes Dagon, I believe following Dagons revolution in Lyg. So it's most likely that Alduin never created a Daedric Prince.

But even if we assume he did, why would that make him 2-A? It was said he cursed the Leaper Demon King which sounds like hax more than power and there is no reason to believe the Demon King was on the level of a Prince for Alduin to have needed to overcome.

Thoughts?

 

[Volundox]

bump for interest

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I suppose that this seems to make sense, but I would prefer more community input. What do you suggest instead to replace these statistics, or would you prefer to simply remove them?

 

[Shazam121]

I would change it to unknown. The gist of the matter is we just don't know all that much about Alduin.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will ask Azathoth for input in order to make certain.

 

[Raian230]

Fight Three in the Seven Fights of the Aldudagga makes it clear though that the Dagon is indeed the Daedric Prince.

https://www.imperial-library.info/content/seven-fights-aldudagga

From paragraph 19 of Fight Three:

"And by turns the snow whale and the dirtbird told the story, and its details, and in his magnificence did Molag Bal know that this was indeed the dream-work of Mehrunes Dagon, his brother of razors, the only Prince who dared trouble the sleep of the dragon-eater, Alduin."

I agree that he may not have been a Daedric Prince when Alduin cursed him, but he is later in the text. In fight six it is also stated that Dagon lost every time he fought with Alduin.

From Fight Six paragraph 54:

"Yeah, sure," Aless giggled, "And how does that work out for you? Every single fight you have with the Dragon ends up with you losing, King Chump. And it will always be like that. Here, there, then, now, or in the future: the Dragon wins over you, as he wins over us all. I'm not afraid of that anymore. More importantly, I'm not afraid of YOU."

I agree that cursing the leaper demon king to make him become Dagon should not be considered a valid 2-A feat, but defeating him when he is the Daedric Prince should be.

 

[Shazam121]

Fight Three in the Seven Fights of the Aldudagga makes it clear though that the Dagon is indeed the Daedric Prince.
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/seven-fights-aldudagga

From paragraph 19 of Fight Three:

"And by turns the snow whale and the dirtbird told the story, and its details, and in his magnificence did Molag Bal know that this was indeed the dream-work of Mehrunes Dagon, his brother of razors, the only Prince who dared trouble the sleep of the dragon-eater, Alduin."

I agree that he may not have been a Daedric Prince when Alduin cursed him, but he is later in the text. In fight six it is also stated that Dagon lost every time he fought with Alduin.

From Fight Six paragraph 54:

"Yeah, sure," Aless giggled, "And how does that work out for you? Every single fight you have with the Dragon ends up with you losing, King Chump. And it will always be like that. Here, there, then, now, or in the future: the Dragon wins over you, as he wins over us all. I'm not afraid of that anymore. More importantly, I'm not afraid of YOU."

I agree that cursing the leaper demon king to make him become Dagon should not be considered a valid 2-A feat, but defeating him when he is the Daedric Prince should be.

Honestly I missed this. But like I said this is not the only story for the creation of Dagon. A issue with all of them I believe is that they aren't solid canon, all are out of game work by MK, though I think there are one or two ague references in the game to specific parts of some of these stories. Should we really use what is only a level above fanfiction for battle boards?

I'm inclined to take the story of Mehrune being created by the Magna Ge over Alduin creating him anyway. Mostly because the Aldudagga is written really stupidly, it is OOC for TES.

With all this uncertainty 2-A doesn't seem right.

 

[Raian230]

I agree. But all I'm saying is that within the text of the Seven Fights of the Aldudagga, Alduin should be 2-A, even if the text is not canon. There's no evidence of him being 2-A within the games or any established canon. However on his profile the 2-A rating is only keyed to the Seven Fights of the Aldudagga, which the page says may or may not be canon. Perhaps this could be clarified better though?

 

[Shazam121]

The problem with TES in the context of battleboards is that there are so many tales it's hard to say what is real.

Making the rating into "possibly 2-A" and then stating the questionable nature of the source for his feat would be fine with me too, but I would prefer an unknown rating.

 

[Raian230]

So if we did remove the 2-A rating, I would suggest we also remove the key for the Seven Fights of the Aldudagga entirely. If we do keep it, we could add a note clarifying that most of the text doesn't fit with the established lore and is probably not canon. Personally I would opt for the second one. While it's probably not canon, a lot of lore is contradictory because it's written from different perspectives, so there's still a small chance it could be canon.

 

[Shazam121]

Yeah that would be okay if we go down that route.

My main issue with the Aldudagga isn't that it contradicts with other creation myths for Dagon, it's that it is written so weird. Using words like "****" and "shit". Doesn't even feel like TES.

 

[Raian230]

Agreed. Having Alduin say "You stupid little f*cker" seems a bit... off. But I think despite the rather off-color nature of the writing, there's a small chance it could be representing true events in Elder Scrolls history.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

If it is too uncertain, why not something like "Unknown, possibly 2-A"? Since Dagon's history seems purposefully vague and all.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, if Seven Fights of the Aldudagga is not a part of canon, we obviously cannot use it, and should remove references to it, preferably with a footnote in the main verse page or othervise.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I don't know if it is considered canon, non-canon, or ambiguously canon, though.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

I don't know if it is considered canon, non-canon, or ambiguously canon, though.

I believe its considered ambiguously canon, never confirmed nor denied by the team that works on the games.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, perhaps the statistics key can remain then?

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

I'm not the biggest TES fan, but I remember looking into the event awhile back, so take my word with a grain of salt.

I think the key should be "Unknow. Possibly 2-A", but I wouldn't be against the notion of removing it all together. I'll see what others think on the matter.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I suppose that seems reasonable.

 

[Shazam121]

Sure I guess that's okay.

 

[Antvasima]

So, does anybody wish to perform the edit?

 

[Shazam121]

So changing his rating to "unknown, possibly 2-A" and removing all mentions of the Aldudagga right? I can do so.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that the mentions are supposed to remain.

 

[Shazam121]

Oh my bad, I misread. I can do that.

 

[Antvasima]

I will unlock the page then.

 

[Shazam121]

I made the changes. Could someone look over them?

 

[Antvasima]

I will check.

 

[Shazam121]

It's been locked but could we change that "Possibly" in the tier at the top to not be bold? It's really annoying me XD

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Shazam121]

Got two emails about "edit summaries". Not sure where to reply to them so I'll do it here. What are edit summaries? I'm new to this so sorry fellas.

 

[Antvasima]

You can go to your personal settings to shut off the notification emails. Othervise you will get them any time somebody makes an edit on a page that you have edited.

Also, what does OOG mean?

 

[Shazam121]

Out of game

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Raian230]

But doesn't this imply that Alduin's tier within the text is unknown? We know Alduin performed a 2-A feat within the text, we just don't know if the text is canon (it's likely not). But that doesn't mean Alduin's tier withi it is unknown. The canonicity of a source doesn't affect what is or isn't a 2-A feat withi the source, right? So, it's a bit misleading as it is now.

 

[Antvasima]

That may be a good point.

 

[Shazam121]

I also added that the rating is in part due to the fact that there are also sources that contradict with the Aldudagga.

 

[Raian230]

If the third key refers sctrictly to the Seven Fights of the Aldudagga, then it seems that having an "unknown" rating based on contradictory evidence within other lore would not be appropriate. If we keep the unknown rating, we should change the third key to "at full power" or something, then indicate that the "possibly 2-A" rating comes from that specific text, which is questionable with regards to canon. How does that sound?

 

[Shazam121]

Seems okay. Here is the source that tells us of the creation of Mehrunes the razor in the bowels of Lyg and how it/ he was then imbued with hope to create a prince of hope (Daedric Prince) for Oblivion. This source is in-game. Perhaps we should mention this too?

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mythic_Dawn_Commentaries#Book_Four

Would you like to do the extra edits if a mod unlocks the page?

 

[Raian230]

Yeah, I think a mention of that source and how it contradicts Dagon's story in the Aldudagga would be good. And it might be kind of hard for me to do the edits.

 

[SITHISIT]

I doubt that crazy Aldudagga story is even needed to justify 2-A.

When I went for another playthrough on Skyrim, I hacked myself in a bunch of Daedric Gear. Then I noticed Alduin say "Even the Daedra fear me!"

Didn't think much of it. But looking back at it now...

I know that Alduin is the boastful type. And Dagon in Mundus when Alduin is slacking off wouldn't see him as that much of a threat. But when Alduin decides to do his job I could see how they're scared of him. Either way Alduin seems a lot like the type the Daedra would shit themselves over considering his status.

I also went over the possibility when I got Alduin changed to Low 2-C (the 5-B rating was obviously out of place) that it wasn't just the single timeline, but he ate all of Mundus to Reset the lower Mundic wheel and make sure all the dead people don't stay dead people forever, but I hadn't gone through everything yet and didn't know enough, so I kept it out.

@Shazam121 if you have free time over the summer could you see if there was anything like that?