Alduin's 2-A rating

[Antvasima]

So, what specifically should be changed in Alduin's profile?

 

[LordXcano]

@Ant It's just a change from "Unknow. Possibly Multiverse level+" to "Possibly Multiverse level+"

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That should be fine. I will temporarily unlock it for editing.

 

[LordXcano]

Done

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the help.

 

[Shazam121]

I would just call Alduin's comment about the Daedra boasting and one line that can mean a number of things isn't enough to justify such a high rating as 2-A. In any case Daedra does not equal Daedric Prince.

Alduin's job isn't understood all that well. It's most likely only the Mundus is affected since we already know the time dragon has no influence in Oblivion or beyond and Alduin is unlikely to be greater than Akatosh in this regard. Also the kalpic cycle seems tied to convention which is something specific to Mundus and Nirn.

You are going to have a hard time getting an accurate model of how kalpas work unfortunately. We just don't have all that much information about them, information that is reasonably solid anyway.

 

[Antvasima]

So the 2-A statistics key should be removed in its entirety after all?

 

[Shazam121]

Do you mean remove the 2-A rating entirely? That's what I was originally going for so I wouldn't have an issue with it.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Let's wait to see what the others think first, as the constant revisions are turning tiresome.

 

[SITHISIT]

I found this https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/28ctvz/mehrunes_the_razor_dagon_mehrunes_dagon/ it seems to state that Like the Aka theory, there were/are two parts of Mehrunes Dagon, Mehrunes the Razor and Dagon the prince, I looked at the creation of both... and to be fair it actually seems like what the creators might've been going for.

 

[Shazam121]

This is also where I first learned of this ^

Should be noted that the story of Alduin creating Dagon is out of game and probably shouldn't count as solid canon. The story of the Magna Ge creating Dagon is in the game at least.

 

[Antvasima]

Who are the Magna Ge?

 

[Shazam121]

Magnus and co. They have their own pantheon, they are pretty much sentient colours.. Meridia used to be one of them.

We already have a page for Magnus.

 

[SITHISIT]

The Godhead is never once mentioned in the games and only in the library even with that vague statements but what we have on it is still considered canon?

Besides, Molag Bal and the other Daedric Pantheon people in Aldudagga didn't want to **** with Alduin when he was sleeping, and a lot of what I saw in Aldudagga lined up with Alduin saying that all of the Daedra fear him.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, so the Magna Ge are not part of the Aedra or the Daedra?

 

[Shazam121]

The godhead is mentioned at least twice in the games, so are amaranths.

Whne it comes down to it the Magna Ge creation of Dagon is actually written like it belongs in TES too. We don't have people saying sh*t and f*ck etc..

 

[Shazam121]

Okay, so the Magna Ge are not part of the Aedra or the Daedra?

Aedra, Daedra and Magna Ge are all et'Ada, which translates to original spirits, beings that formed in beginning of the dawn era; they are pretty much all the same thing. Aedra, Daedra, Magna Ge etc are just mortal titles, the only thing that separates these spirits is location: for example, Meridia started as a Magna Ge but she got kicked out of Aetherius and set up shop in Oblivion and so we call her a Daedric Prince, Trinimac used to be a Aedra, but went onto become Malacath the Daedric Prince because he now lives in Oblivion. Originally both the Aedra and the Magna Ge took part in creating Mundus, but the Magna Ge deserted the project just before completion.

 

[SITHISIT]

Also quick notice, when was Alduin born? I see some things that he was born before the Dawn Era and existed before Akatosh, but then other things say otherwise

 

[Shazam121]

Another question we have no definitive answer for. It depends on what you think Alduin is. If Alduin is the ancient nordic representation of Aka then he has existed in some way since the beginning, but he only became his own person after convention when mortal belief "created" him.

I don't know if anything ever specifically focuses on this subject.

 

[Shazam121]

I forgot to address this this idea of existing before Aka and the Dawn Era, remember the et Ada existed BEFORE Aka created time. I'm just going to copy a comment from a friend who I think summed it up quite well:

"It seems that outside of time there is simply an event pool with no duration in between events, and Aka being time gives events duration/order. I don't know how this works but it's what most gods describe, Vivec, Fa-Nuit-Hen and Sheogorath all state this.

No Et'Ada is necessarily subject to Time's influence, so one could say that they were all the first?"

 

[Antvasima]

So, should we keep the 2-A key or not?

 

[Shazam121]

Wouldn't an unknown rating be appropriate just due to how much uncertainity there is on the subject? Maybe Alduin is 2-A, but should we really hand out such a high rating when there is so much doubt?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, if you outline a suggested wording here, the others can evaluate it. We cannot continue to constantly change the profile back and forth.

 

[Shazam121]

So I suppose he can keep his two lower ratings, but here's what I would do replace the 2-A rating with:

Tier: Unknown

Attack potency: Unknow (Strong enough to create a Daedric Prince in an out of game tale of questionable canonicity and defeat him in every fight they fought. However, since an alternative story , that is found in-game, exists for the creation of Mehrunes Dagon the ambiguity of canon is not the only issue here)

Speed, Lifting, Durability, Striking all to: Unknow

And in the Notes along with keeping the current statement I would add the following: There also exists an in-game tale that describes the creation of Mehrunes Dagon which should ideally take precedence due it being truly canon.

 

[Antvasima]

The other alternative would be to simply remove the statistics, and add something like the following as a footnote:

"In "Seven Fights of the Aldudagga", Alduin was portrayed as strong enough to create the Daedric prince Mehrunes Dago, and defeat him in every confrontation. However, this took place in an ambiguous out of game tale of questionable canonicity. An alternative story, that is found in-game, also exists for the creation of Dagon. As such, we cannot treat this representation of Alduin as fact."

 

[Shazam121]

That sounds good to me.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will adjust the page.

 

[Antvasima]

I have done so. If everybody are fine with this solution, we can probably close this thread.

 

[SITHISIT]

While we're in the subject of Alduin, I may be wrong, but shouldn't he have Creation and Void Manipulation (timeline erasure) as everything I can find on him says he destroys the timeline to create a new one.

Either way, I'll take some time jumping into the library to see if I can find anything on Alduin being 2-A or higher.

edit: we should also remove his loss from Asriel as that took place when he was 2-A or just say that was Alduin as of (date)

 

[Antvasima]

I will remove the loss.

 

[Antvasima]

Time Manipulation might also work, but I suppose that your suggestions are fine btw.

 

[Raian230]

What about Alduin fighting Shor (Lorkhan)? Alduin lost, but still...

 

[SITHISIT]

oh

OH

 

[SITHISIT]

Also.

I found something while playing skyrim (sixth time in the past week i know)

The Ancient Nord Heroes say that Shor (lorkhan) said that they could not leave the Hall of Valor until Lorkhan/Shor returned.

However when the Dovahkiin comes they left the Hall.

Thoughts?

Also Raian, where did Alduin fight Lorkhan and link?

 

[Raian230]

It's from the Five Songs of King Wulfharth.

https://www.imperial-library.info/content/skyrim-five-songs-king-wulfharth

It's in the "Old Knocker" section.

"The third song of King Wulfharth tells of his death. Orkey, an enemy god, had always tried to ruin the Nords, even in Atmora where he stole their years away. Seeing the strength of King Wulfharth, Orkey summoned the ghost of Alduin Time-Eater again. Nearly every Nord was eaten down to six years old. Boy Wulfharth pleaded to Shor, the dead Chieftain of the Gods, to help his people. Shor's own ghost then fought the Time-Eater on the spirit plane, as he did at the beginning of time, and he won, and Orkey's folk, the Orcs, were ruined."

This source appears in-game in Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim.

 

[SITHISIT]

+Antvasima opinions?

 

[Antvasima]

What do you want my opinion about?

 

[Shazam121]

I wasn't familiar with this song. What would it insinuate though? Would it really change anything? For one it was just a "ghost" of Shor that fought and importantly defeated Alduin... which makes it sound like it was an avatar of Shor. And two, it is just a folk song as far as I can tell? Not the most accurate or trustworthy of sources

 

[SITHISIT]

"Every nord was eaten"

Doubt it.

 

[SITHISIT]

As far as ghosts go in TES, theyre usually just Non-Corporeal or somewhat so. Rarely ever so weaker.

And it wasnt just an avatar. Wulfrath is a Shezzarine and as such Shezzarines usually end up being the "avatars" of Lorkhan/Shor. So Im guessing its the true Lorkhan he fought.