Alduin's 2-A rating

[SITHISIT]

The thing is, here it likely took place in a different Aurbis according to c0da law. So I personally think it should be a different profile altogether as it strays from the normal aurbis that were used to in a different multiverse.

 

[Antvasima]

It does seem redundant though.

 

[Raian230]

Also, there is evidence that (at least some of) the Daedric Princes are influenced by changes in the Kalpa. For example, Molag Bal was considered to be the Ruddy Man in a previous Kalpa, and Alduin has control over the Kalpa, wouldn't that mean that Alduin has some control over the Daedric Princes?

 

[SITHISIT]

that does make some sense..

 

[Shazam121]

We don't actually know if the kalpa change affected Bal without his approval. It's very possible he either chose to change himself or the Ruddy Man was just an avatar of Bal.

 

[Hat_mchat]

Is boethiah's summoning day considered canon? There is a lot in there that suggests changes in the roles of et'ada at the end of a kalpa. Like peryite becomes akatosh

 

[Shazam121]

I'm pretty sure that was written by some random fan?

 

[Hat_mchat]

Fair enough. Might be exaggeration but in combat alduin says even the daedra fear him. Also there's things like the greedy man becoming lorkhan, ruddy man becoming molag bal and umaril's father being from a different kalpa.

 

[Shazam121]

Yes we've already gone over this. It's not quantifiable at all.

 

[Hat_mchat]

I don't really know what you're trying to accomplish anyway, i was just throwing in some related things. Regarding the topic of the thread: alduin eats all the parallels of mundus being likely comparable to akatosh so 2-A seems reasonable.

 

[Shazam121]

Source?

Also we don't know how many parallel realities Mundus has.

 

[Hat_mchat]

Actually you've got a really good point about lack of source for how many parallels mundus has. akatosh is 2-A because time is present in all mundus parallels, however perhaps akatosh should be 2-B because we don't know how many parallels there are.

I'd also just like to add that shouldn't mundus have 2 dimensions in time as septimus said the elder scrolls can look up and down in time and he seems to be the best informed on the scrolls.

 

[Shazam121]

Akatosh is 2-A because he is the embodiment of time throughout the Aurbis. Where Oblivion has infinite realms.

We discussed the time dimension thing in the past and I also discussed it over at teslore and we never reached a consensus. Many people think it has nothing to do with dimensions.

 

[Hat_mchat]

Could you link the discussion?

Also time is not everywhere in oblivion: "As for time, cause, and consequence, let's just say that the laws of the Dragon God do not apply to Oblivion. Oh, it's useful to adopt the trappings of duration when dealing with mortals, so you'll find Maelstrom quite familiar in that regard. We know how lost you feel away from the hand of Akatosh!" I think from fa nuit hen. Also we don't know if time is present in aetherius or if it is an infinite multiverse.

 

[Shazam121]

Time probably isn't present in Aetherius. But time is present in Oblivion, it's just that the Daedra are not subject to it in the same manner as mortals. Haskill explains the subject quite well:

Chamberlain Haskill says, "Oh, of course, 'Doyen,' because assuaging the grief of mortals is so important to me. Let me be clear: inhabitants of the Shivering Isles are affected by Time, but we are not subject to it. We are subjects of Lord Sheogorath, who subjects us to whatever subjects he is in the mood to subjugate. Because Time is subjective."


Also, it doesn't matter if some realms of Oblivion don't use time. Remember there are an infinite number of realms in Oblivion, so even if an infinite number of them don't use the trappings of time, another infinite set of them could and we know time is present in some manner throughout Oblivion.

We discuss the 2-A rating of the gods here.

And I introduced the time dimension stuff here.

 

[Hat_mchat]

Thanks, but the text notes how they are not subject to it so akatosh doesn't have power over oblivion. Also the fa nuit hen text doesn't say few realms are affected by time, it says oblivion is not bound by the laws of akatosh.

 

[Shazam121]

You don't seem to understand. Time is not something separate from Akatosh. Time IS Akatosh and Akatosh IS Time. Haskill tells us that the inhabitants of the Shivering Isles are affect by Time. Do you notice how time is always capitalized? It's done on purpose to refer to Aka. Whenever someone manipulates time in any way shape or form they are manipulating Aka. Akatosh does not have conscious control over Oblivion but he IS present in Oblivion and it was Aka who made it easier/ possible for the other spirits to form in the Dawn Era.

 

[Antvasima]

@Shazam121 Thank you for helping to straighten this out.

 

[SITHISIT]

https://www.imperial-library.info/content/races-tamriel-nord

"Nords only had a lifespan of six years once due to Orkey's foul magic and trickery."

uugg literally everywhere i look on this stuff says it happened

 

[Raian230]

Really, I think just from fighting Shor, Alduin should be given at least a "likely 2-A" rating.

1. They fought at the beginning of time, which was before mundus existed. The Aedra (including Shor) did not lose their power until they gave up their power to create mundus, permanently binding themselves to it. So, Shor (Lorkhan) must have been at full power then.

2. Yes, it is from a song. But it's a song that reflects Nordic lore. More importantly, it's a lorebook that appears in-game in three games. There is not an issue with canonicity like with the Seven Fights, because the Five Songs are an official part of Bethesda lore. We go by in-game lore for a lot of the profiles here. If we limited ourselves to events that the player experiences firsthand, we would not have any feats placing the Aedra or Daedra at 2-A either.

 

[SITHISIT]

nonono. it should be

At least Low 2-C (Stated to devour the kalpa, which is the universe and its timeline), possibly 2-A (Variously hinted and implied to have fought Shor, the Nordic Representation of Lorkhan)

 

[Raian230]

Yeah, that sounds good to me. But I'm not sure what the rest of the community thinks.

 

[SITHISIT]

also, just to point something out, I made a profile on FCOC for SFOTD Aluin here https://fcoc-vs-battles.fandom.com/wiki/Alduin_(Seven_Fights_of_the_Aldudagga)

 

[Antvasima]

At least Low 2-C (Stated to devour the kalpa, which is the universe and its timeline), possibly 2-A (Variously hinted and implied to have fought Shor, the Nordic Representation of Lorkhan)

I suppose that seems to make sense, although only if we use a separate statistics key. A 2-A Dragonborn does not remotely seem reasonable, to say the least.

 

[SITHISIT]

How does LDB have anything to do with Alduin fighting Shor?

 

[Antvasima]

I meant that we cannot give Alduin Low 2-C to 2-A statistics in the form that he fought the Dragonborn in.

 

[SITHISIT]

yeah i know that, I would add the 2-A rating onto his world eater form.

 

[SITHISIT]

should we get more input on this?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I cannot force other staff members to be interested in responding, but you can ask Azathoth if you wish.

 

[Shazam121]

I'm not suggesting Alduin needs a in-game showing to be 2-A, I just don't like using this song as there is no way to verify whether it happened. There are plenty of mortal myths and legends in TES, many of them are purely fictional.

And I want to make clear why I feel the Daedra and the Aedra have the 2-A rating. It's not because they can destroy an infinite multiverse, because there is nothing that implies that they can. The reason I consider them 2-A is because they embody concepts and forces of nature that permeate throughout the entire multiverse. Aka IS time, throughout the entire Aurbis, Sheogorath IS madness etc. They are 2-A in the same sense that gravity in an infinite multiverse would be a 2-A force. Is there anything that suggests that Alduin embodies a force or concept in such a manner? Because even if he fought Shor, it would not make him 2-A, as Shor himself does not have any 2-A combat feats.

 

[Raian230]

The 2-A rating doesn't need to originally be from a combat feat in order for others to scale to that level, though. If character A has a non-destructive feat placing them at a certain tier, character B can be scaled to them from combat. Also, Trinimac, Boethiah, and Vivec are all scaled from combat feats against the Et'Ada.

Also, I agree it can't be verified, but it's still part of lore. That's why I think a "possibly 2-A" would be sufficient, like Riiingo said. I agree he shouldn't just be flat-out 2-A.

 

[Shazam121]

"If character A has a non-destructive feat placing them at a certain tier, character B can be scaled to them from combat"

This doesn't seem right. Does this site actually work like this? Just so we are all on the same page, nothing and no one in TES, below Sithis, has a 2-A combat or destructive feat. My problem with Raian's statement is the following: gravity might be a universal force, but that doesn't mean it can beat you up; likewise, the et'Ada might embody multiversal concepts but that doesn't mean they fight on that level, they clearly do not.

Trinimac and Boeithiah should not be scaled from combat feats and Vivec's tier should ideally be unknown.

 

[Raian230]

Admittedly, I'm not entirely sure on that. But I seem to recall some thread on this wiki where it was decided that characters could scale from combat to characters with non-destructive feats. I think we really need input from an admin here. If I'm wrong, then it makes sense for Alduin not to have a 2-A rating. But the justifications for many of the other Gods' tiers would also have to be changed then, like you said.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, as far as I remember, given that the Aedra and Daedra all scale somewhat from Akatosh, who embodies time across all of the infinite universes in the multiverse/oblivion, they have all been assigned 2-A ratings.

 

[Shazam121]

Right and embodying time is not a destructive or combat feat. The actual reason the other Aedra and Daedra scale to Akatosh is because they, like him, also embody certain concepts as he embodies times.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, embodying madness is not quantifiable, but embodying an intrinsic physical part of a space-time continuum is, so we can scale from Akatosh.

 

[Raian230]

But what about Vivec? Also, can characters scale from combat with other characters with non-destructive feats?

 

[Shazam121]

That's a good point.

 

[Shazam121]

Eh Vivec is a tough one. A few months ago I suggested that his rating should be unknown, as he doesn't really have any feats in canon and even the OOG Trial of Vivec is hard to gauge.

 

[Antvasima]

So, returning to Alduin: Should he be upgraded or not?