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Ainz Ooal Gown City Level Downgrades (Part 2 - Electric Boogaloo)
- Thread starter InfiniteSped
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That's an oxymoron. If a non-combat spell can do something, a combat spell SHOULDN'T be assumed to do it. It's why we even have the page for Encironmental Destruction; largescale environmental effects do not speak necessarily of a character's capacity to directly cause harm. A hurricane or tornado doesn't even always kill humans directly in their most severe areas because the force being applied on the area of the human is so low.
Similarly you can't argue Ainz has a method of applying that force on a small enough area to do meaningful harm to an individual. Or even really weaponize the force in general, it just alters the environment.
Now, Ainz has direct combat spells, sure. And direct combat Super-Tier spells as well. Our basic assumption shouldn't be to scale them without good reason to do so; as each spell accomplished different tasks. For example, I can punch someone with a relatively decent amount of force, but I obviously can't exert the same amount of force while poking someone in the eye.
Similarly you can't argue Ainz has a method of applying that force on a small enough area to do meaningful harm to an individual. Or even really weaponize the force in general, it just alters the environment.
Now, Ainz has direct combat spells, sure. And direct combat Super-Tier spells as well. Our basic assumption shouldn't be to scale them without good reason to do so; as each spell accomplished different tasks. For example, I can punch someone with a relatively decent amount of force, but I obviously can't exert the same amount of force while poking someone in the eye.
Feats don't have to be calced. But if you can link the "other feats in-verse" and "17 supporting feats" I've been reading of that make the rating consistent, by all means do so.ThePixelKirby said:
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Speaking from the experience of D&D (invading this thread momentarily since all of you are so keen to ask me about Strahd because of this CRT, kek), magic is generally a case of if you add x amount of magic power and time here and add the same amount there, the two would be comparable. I say this with the knowledge that people have said Overlord has a magic system much akin to D&D.
For example. A spell in D&D that causes Earthquake would yield about Low 7-C results. It could be cast spontaneously and caused a general shaking of the environment to disadvantage an enemy. This would be fine to scale to other spells on it's own level, since the same potency of magic was put into it. D&D mages and spellcasters display methods to channel this energy into singular attacks (often to devastating effect).
If that is the case here, where spells are tiered and one spell on the tier isn't realistically qualitatively superior to the other, then the AP is fine. Expecting each attack spell to display results equivalent to a spell meant to affect a wide area is absurd, if that alone is the reasoning for the downgrade I would disagree. If a spell is meant to be vastly more powerful, then they shouldn't scale, no.
Alternatively, have you considered "8-C physically, 8-A with typical magics, 7-B with Super tier magic" or something similar?
Anyhoo. Just some thoughts, I'll be dipping out of the thread. Cheers fellas.
For example. A spell in D&D that causes Earthquake would yield about Low 7-C results. It could be cast spontaneously and caused a general shaking of the environment to disadvantage an enemy. This would be fine to scale to other spells on it's own level, since the same potency of magic was put into it. D&D mages and spellcasters display methods to channel this energy into singular attacks (often to devastating effect).
If that is the case here, where spells are tiered and one spell on the tier isn't realistically qualitatively superior to the other, then the AP is fine. Expecting each attack spell to display results equivalent to a spell meant to affect a wide area is absurd, if that alone is the reasoning for the downgrade I would disagree. If a spell is meant to be vastly more powerful, then they shouldn't scale, no.
Alternatively, have you considered "8-C physically, 8-A with typical magics, 7-B with Super tier magic" or something similar?
Anyhoo. Just some thoughts, I'll be dipping out of the thread. Cheers fellas.
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My stance on this matter remains unchanged, i still see no reason why a casual non-combative spell wouldn't scale energy wise to the offensive spells he uses in battle.
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Its not really inconsistent sinse there is very litlle we can compare it to, overlord has very few feats to begin with and most of them were either performed extremily casualy or are unquantifiable.Matthew Schroeder said:
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The spell also destroyed the massive fortress that was close to the wall.OpMasada said:
The news of a demihuman alliance — one that comprised a massive army — crushing the strongest central fortress and its vast quantities of soldiers,
The feat also becomes a lot more impressive when you consider the fact that the wall was over 100 kilometers long.
The entrance to the peninsula sported a great wall, over one hundred kilometers long from north to south.
Depending on how much of the wall was destroyed this feat could potentialy be a lot higher than 7-B
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He blew a whole wall so his armies could pass, the size of the whole thing is pretty irrelevant. Punhcing a whole in the Great Wall of China isn't harder than punching a whole in another wall made of the same materials, but, say, only 100 meters long.
Anyway, I don't think there's much point in arguing anymore. I just don't get how it's safer to assume that Creation scales to other spells when it's literally thousands upon thousands of times better than anything else shown in the series.
Anyway, I don't think there's much point in arguing anymore. I just don't get how it's safer to assume that Creation scales to other spells when it's literally thousands upon thousands of times better than anything else shown in the series.
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As i have stated in previous comments there is no reason for it not to scale, we only have one quantifiable feat to compare it to that being Nuclear Blast and that spell is both two tiers lower and stated to be very weak for its tier.
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And Nuclear Blasts is still thousands upon thousands of times weaker . . .
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And its still two tiers lower and very weak even for its tier . . .
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Still one of the best ranges in Ainz's arsenal and it doesn't come close to covering a whole city . . . or even a city district, apparently . . .
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Also, anyone remembers the size of one of the Nazarick's floors ever being stated?
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And i have already explained why having a big range doesnt make a spell more powerful. You are repeating arguments that i have already addressed in previous comments.InfiniteSped said:
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That's just to show that we don't have anything to support Creation scaling. Sure, AoE doesn't equal power, but you won't really be able to quantify a spell unless it affects a large area, like Creation. We can't know how powerful the focused ones are, so the AoE one are all we have, and all of them pale in coparison to Creation's result.
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You should compare whats comparable, you cant take a spell thats both two tiers lower and stated to be weak and then compare it to creation regardless of its range. We pretty much have nothing to compare Creation to, which is why i dont see a reason why it shouldnt be used for scaling.
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We dont know exactly how big they are but the 6th floor for example has a 200m tall roof and contains a lake, a giant colosseum, a village, huge forests and agricultural lands. Flying up to the height of the ceiling the floor stretches as far as the eye can see in all directionsInfiniteSped said:
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It's range is quite small, and it's one of the best ranges in Ainz's arsenal. Just shows that it's unlikely that he has a spell that has enough range to be quantified as actually City Level.TheOneBelowAll123 said:
It's true that we haven't seen everything he has, but we never will, really. Your argument relies on speculation that he has a spell with the same power output as Creation, when the pattern here clearly points to the contrary.
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What other feats, exactly? Even without calcs, what do they have? Nuclear Blast destroying a few buildings, Meteor Fall destroying a fortress, and Fallen Down burning some trees. That's it, how does any of that point to City Level being consistent?ThePixelKirby said:
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How many times do i have to repeat myself, having a rarge range doesnt make a spell powerful. Nuclear blast is a spell thats outright stated to be weak so its range dosnt mean anything.InfiniteSped said:
My argument doesnt rely on speculation, i said that there is no reason why a casual non-combative spell wouldn't scale energy wise to the offensive super tier spells he uses in battle. Also there is no pattern here, i have alredy explained why Nuclear blast and Fallen down cant compare to creation and sinse there is nothing alse to compare it to there is simply no reason why the spell shouldnt be used for scaling.
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Nuclear Blast is a weak 9th tier spell that cant be compared to creation. We have no idea how much of the wall was destroyed or how large the fortress was so thats unquantifiable and i have alredy explained why Fallen down cant be compared to creation either.InfiniteSped said:
The feats you bring up are either unquantifiable or have an explenation as to why they did less damage than creation.
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Just going in circles at this point, so I won't keep arguing anymore.
Also, regardless of the rating, the Fallen Down calc really should be removed due to contradicting the primary canon.
Also, regardless of the rating, the Fallen Down calc really should be removed due to contradicting the primary canon.
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That would probably be its own crt.
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TheOneBelowAll's argument is that Creation isn't an outlier since it is the only super-tier spell that we are accurately able to calc. Being the only piece of data in the dataset, it cannot be an outlier. We have calcs for Ainz's weaker spells, but none for his super-tier spells now that Fallen Down is out of the running. Therefore, Creation should be used.
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And my argument is that it shouldn't scale for the exact reason that we don't have anything else on that level. It's way too powerful to just assume it's the norm, when everything else points to the opposite.
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Kep hasn't responded to my prodding, Matt has commented.
Have attempts been made to contact Saikou and Assault? I understand the latter is busy, so don't push asking them to come here.
Have attempts been made to contact Saikou and Assault? I understand the latter is busy, so don't push asking them to come here.
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Ive posted on both there walls no response.
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Pretty sure you need an insane amount of energy to create something like [Gravity Maelstrom] capable of crushing the opponent. From what's been researched it seems human can withstand 90G (90 times the gravity of earth) but you wouldn't be able to do much tasks. I don't need to say it do I, that you're no longer human at even level 5. You need something with the mass of like the earth to simulate real gravity and even more (yes everything with mass has gravity but in this case we're talking about noticeable effects), to crush humans. BTW,the sun only has a surface gravity of 28. In Dragon Ball, the gravity chamber has gone up to 500G. Now how much would Ainz's spell do?
The weird thing with spells in Overlord is that they mostly ignore the environment. For example, [Gravity Maelstorm], how is such a dense energy of Gravity able to fly across the air, all while not affecting the earth itself? Also [Fallen Down] by the chapter's text, quite literally did not affect anything outside of it's radius.
[Of course, he had higher-grade magic items for illumination on hand. However, Suzuki Satoru decided that there was no need to show off anything more powerful. Now was not the time to reveal his hand. Also, one of them could radiate light that was like the sun, which would apply negative status effects to Vampires] - Side-Story
Now there is no question on how bright this light spell is (brighter than the sun or else Ainz would have set up lamps as bright as the sun around the duel area to deal with Shalltear and light items were never part of his plan), but what of the heat? Let's say the heat is only a few tens of thousands of degrees, but what of [Nuclear Blast]? Is that as hot as a nuclear bomb said to be millions of degrees hotter than the interior of the sun? Then there is the fact that Shalltear was hit by a MEGA nuke by a Dragon Lord (PDL), the superheated pulse (thermal pulse) was in kilometers, Tsar, yes the dragon lord and the nuclear bomb share the same name, if the author came forward to say it was the exact same thing as the real bomb/s then it would still fit.
[This was an ultimate explosion. It stained the world with a blinding white flash. There was a thunderous roar and an eruption of heat. The shockwave it generated blew the land away and the rising dirt and sand formed a mushroom cloud in the air. The lethal area of the superheated pulse was measured in kilometers, and there was no trace of movement within it. As the dust and smoke dispersed, the horrific conditions within were made clear.]
The weird thing is despire this heat, her items survived despite not being optimised to resist fire.
[Her dress was in tatters, its remnants plastered to her body. However, the highest-grade items on Shalltear's body and the parts hidden by them were untouched.]
The weird thing with spells in Overlord is that they mostly ignore the environment. For example, [Gravity Maelstorm], how is such a dense energy of Gravity able to fly across the air, all while not affecting the earth itself? Also [Fallen Down] by the chapter's text, quite literally did not affect anything outside of it's radius.
[Of course, he had higher-grade magic items for illumination on hand. However, Suzuki Satoru decided that there was no need to show off anything more powerful. Now was not the time to reveal his hand. Also, one of them could radiate light that was like the sun, which would apply negative status effects to Vampires] - Side-Story
Now there is no question on how bright this light spell is (brighter than the sun or else Ainz would have set up lamps as bright as the sun around the duel area to deal with Shalltear and light items were never part of his plan), but what of the heat? Let's say the heat is only a few tens of thousands of degrees, but what of [Nuclear Blast]? Is that as hot as a nuclear bomb said to be millions of degrees hotter than the interior of the sun? Then there is the fact that Shalltear was hit by a MEGA nuke by a Dragon Lord (PDL), the superheated pulse (thermal pulse) was in kilometers, Tsar, yes the dragon lord and the nuclear bomb share the same name, if the author came forward to say it was the exact same thing as the real bomb/s then it would still fit.
[This was an ultimate explosion. It stained the world with a blinding white flash. There was a thunderous roar and an eruption of heat. The shockwave it generated blew the land away and the rising dirt and sand formed a mushroom cloud in the air. The lethal area of the superheated pulse was measured in kilometers, and there was no trace of movement within it. As the dust and smoke dispersed, the horrific conditions within were made clear.]
The weird thing is despire this heat, her items survived despite not being optimised to resist fire.
[Her dress was in tatters, its remnants plastered to her body. However, the highest-grade items on Shalltear's body and the parts hidden by them were untouched.]
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Also volume 13.
Quote 1: [They ought to have been grateful that only a single city district was destroyed. Many houses were on fire and white plumes of smoke reached to the sky, but the total casualties were almost nil.]
Quote 2: [Crimson spheres and glowing spheres blossomed in the sky.
Each of these spells could probably destroy an entire city district by themselves, and they were hurling them at each other in wild flurries. However, they looked kind of cute from a distance.]
Quote 3: ["Ahh. Like I said earlier, I intend to take back Kalinsha. This is also militarily advantageous. In truth, this city is far too cramped, and much of it has already been destroyed. Living here is difficult, so I would like to have a larger, more solid home base.]
Quote 1: [They ought to have been grateful that only a single city district was destroyed. Many houses were on fire and white plumes of smoke reached to the sky, but the total casualties were almost nil.]
Quote 2: [Crimson spheres and glowing spheres blossomed in the sky.
Each of these spells could probably destroy an entire city district by themselves, and they were hurling them at each other in wild flurries. However, they looked kind of cute from a distance.]
Quote 3: ["Ahh. Like I said earlier, I intend to take back Kalinsha. This is also militarily advantageous. In truth, this city is far too cramped, and much of it has already been destroyed. Living here is difficult, so I would like to have a larger, more solid home base.]
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Responding to a couple of the above feats:
Gravity: I don't think we can reasonably calc a gravity manipulation spell. It's not like a physical object is exerting X Gs and we can get its density/mass out of that; it's just someone magically increasing one of the fundamental forces (and not even in every regard; weird stuff would happen if you actually multiplied the force of gravity by 500 in a given area).
Light: Ainz having light sources brighter than the Sun isn't that impressive when you realize regular flashlights can be "brighter than the sun" if placed sufficiently close to your eyes. We'd need more context to do a calculation. That put we might be able to do an illumination calc for Fallen Down.
Platinum Dragon Explosion: Seems legit.
Other Explosions: Impressive, but likely not anywhere near Tier 7.
Gravity: I don't think we can reasonably calc a gravity manipulation spell. It's not like a physical object is exerting X Gs and we can get its density/mass out of that; it's just someone magically increasing one of the fundamental forces (and not even in every regard; weird stuff would happen if you actually multiplied the force of gravity by 500 in a given area).
Light: Ainz having light sources brighter than the Sun isn't that impressive when you realize regular flashlights can be "brighter than the sun" if placed sufficiently close to your eyes. We'd need more context to do a calculation. That put we might be able to do an illumination calc for Fallen Down.
Platinum Dragon Explosion: Seems legit.
Other Explosions: Impressive, but likely not anywhere near Tier 7.
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The PDL explosion isn't canon, afaik
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From what I can tell, it's WN stuff. That story with Shalltear getting nuked seems to have been written before the first volume of the LN was even released.
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InfiniteSped said:
Megalovania but Oof
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Just to clarify, it isn't connected to the WN nor LN. Its a stand alone 'what if' maruyama wrote if PDL fought Shalltear.InfiniteSped said:
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It was released around 2012? It's still canon (in a way), web novel Shalltear is weaker than light novel Shalltear but this was just a 'what if battle' and author already tweeted that the natural enemy of Shalltear and Ainz is Tsar. In the LN he can buff his attack or nerf it, but I still think it's a good indicator.
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If it's not connected to either, then I don't think it's canon regardless.
Anyway, from what I can see, it doesn't say if she took it point blank. And we already know that Wild Magic spells can be as powerful as WCIs, so it's not necessarily anything that Ainz can come close to replicating with Super Tier.
Anyway, from what I can see, it doesn't say if she took it point blank. And we already know that Wild Magic spells can be as powerful as WCIs, so it's not necessarily anything that Ainz can come close to replicating with Super Tier.
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[This was an ultimate explosion. It stained the world with a blinding white flash. There was a thunderous roar and an eruption of heat. The shockwave it generated blew the land away and the rising dirt and sand formed a mushroom cloud in the air. The lethal area of the superheated pulse was measured in kilometers, and there was no trace of movement within it. As the dust and smoke dispersed, the horrific conditions within were made clear.]
The bare minimum for this feat to be achieved is in the Large Town level+ ballpark.
here plug 800 kilotons for surface burst, the area where fatalities approach 100% will be 2.02 km in radius.
The bare minimum for this feat to be achieved is in the Large Town level+ ballpark.
here plug 800 kilotons for surface burst, the area where fatalities approach 100% will be 2.02 km in radius.
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I mean it would be in the same area as the Evileye Side Story bonus novel, its another what if scenario wrote by the author. Its not like it contradicts anything we seen from Shalltear already and PDL is near featless right now, in fact this is probably the first example we had of Wild Magic piercing tier magic resistances. Whether it counts in this wiki or not is up to discussion.InfiniteSped said:
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