Ainz Ooal Gown City Level Downgrades (Part 2 - Electric Boogaloo)

[Paul_Frank]

That reasoning is faulty. You're saying we don't have proof that combat oriented spells don't scale to environmental Destruction done by a non-combat spell.

That's literally the opposite of how it works. You need proof that combat oriented spells scale to the environmental Destruction of a non-combat spell

 

[DeathNoodles]

One lack of evidence does not fix an another lack of evidence.

Either way, my stance would remain unchanged until I see more solid evidence from other arguments.

 

[Paul_Frank]

You need evidence to support the claim

You don't need evidence to point out there is no evidence supporting the claim

 

[TheOneBelowAll123]

Technicaly the op is the one who made the claim that other spells dont scale to creation so the burden of proof is on him. What DeathNoodles made was not a claim but a response to a claim made by the op.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

I repeat this has been done before, a consensus was reached you are now trying to change said consensus thus the burden of proof falls to you.

 

[Akreious]

I had a big paragraph explaining my opinion but I trashed it for a few sentences in exchange.

I disagree for the fundamental reason that by all accounts, no Super-Tier spell should be above one another in terms of AP. This is because Super-Tier spells have no set "Totem Pole" of progression. No one spell is inherently superior to the other in this tier; at least none that Overlord indicated yet. Unlike Nuclear Blast, which is a weaker spell, there's no "Weaker" Super-Tier spell or anything like that.

So following that, Fallen Down and other Super-Tier Spells based off of AP such as Creation should scale off of one another.

Plus the alternative is literally a spell that the characters themselves call "a Weaker Spell", which is done casually, and is not a huge deal whatsoever.

 

[TheOneBelowAll123]

Votes

Against:9 yobo, one below, apeironaxim, pen or sword, fdrybob, kirby, emperor, deathnoodles, Arkeious

For:4 infinitesped, bigboi, paul, abdiel

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I have already previously stated why I think the feat shouldn't count for combat applicibility on other threads, and freely give my support here.

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2196141

That said, I was outnumbered in that thread by Assalt, Matt, Kep, and Saikou.

Their reasoning wasn't much more than "ED has gone too far", but you should call them over here to comment again. I'd love to see ED actually apply to a popular verse when it absolutely should, but experience has made me a pessimist.

 

[HereComesBigBoi]

I mean ED exists for a reason so it must be used sometime

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Votes

Against:10 yobo, one below, apeironaxim, pen or sword, fdrybob, kirby, emperor, deathnoodles, Arkeious, darkwraths

For:5 infinitesped, bigboi, paul, abdiel, dragoo

 

[DarkWraths]

Against FRA

 

[TheOneBelowAll123]

Against:10 yobo, one below, apeironaxim, pen or sword, fdrybob, kirby, emperor, deathnoodles, Arkeious, darkwraths

For:5 infinitesped, bigboi, paul, abdiel, dragoo

 

[Dragopentling]

Voting Against

 

[Paul_Frank]

I'm not sure why we are voting. We need staff to evaluate this it isn't a versus match

 

[TheOneBelowAll123]

Against:11 yobo, one below, apeironaxim, pen or sword, fdrybob, kirby, emperor, deathnoodles, Arkeious, darkwraths, dragopentling

For:5 infinitesped, bigboi, paul, abdiel, dragoo

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Votes

Against:11 yobo, one below, apeironaxim, pen or sword, fdrybob, kirby, emperor, deathnoodles, Arkeious, darkwraths, dragonpentling

For:5 infinitesped, bigboi, paul, abdiel, dragoo

Allright guys if you just want to vote message me on my wall so I can edit this and wont have to constantly repost the votes.

 

[TheOneBelowAll123]

I'm not sure why we are voting. We need staff to evaluate this it isn't a versus match

Its so that the staff can get an idea of what the general consensus is.

 

[Paul_Frank]

That doesn't really matter though. Staff evaluation on a CRT isnt based on what the general consensus is it's based on what they feel has the best evidence.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Both sides have given there reasons, at this point were seeing what the general consensus on which argument people feel is more solid/which side they feel is right. In the end if the staff disagree theres nothing we can do but in cases like this its best to let the staff see what majority think

 

[AguilaR101]

It does but if it lacks a direct contradiction we can still consider it valid, especially since the ground is never referenced in there fight after fallen down. Unless there is a direct contradiction the feat should still be considered valid.

Why would there be a need for a direct contradiction here though?

If the source material doesn't give you any evidence suggesting that a crater was formed there is no reason for anyone to assume that it was, and as such it is not erroneous to say the crater and supposed vaporization are an anime only thing.

 

[FDrybob]

We accept non-source material feats if they do not contradict the source material. Pen's argument is that since the anime crater doesn't contradict the LN, it should be considered valid.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Because for things not directly stated by the text the anime can be used for a secondary source of information saying that there is enough contradictory information for the feat to be called into question

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Revisions are not purely staff decided, yes.

They aren't decided by "For/against FRA" though, they're decided by people who are putting forward meaningful arguments.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Ive contacted the staff you mentioned above though I have yet to hear a response....

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I'll try contacting them myself directly; I don't think their opinions have changed since the last thread although I'd love to continue the discussion we had on the last thread.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Sorry to bother!

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I have no opinion on the environmental damage issue, but it does seem to be inconsistent by checking the OP.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Just downgrade everyone to 9-B lmao ovo

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Ironically ainz wouldn't be overly affected as he wins due to hax, his ap and dura never actually come into play...

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Can we calculate Meteor Fall or Nulear Blast by any chance? Or are they another case of "Overlord doesn't show half it's shit"?

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

We have a basic idea of nuclear blast, saying that with how much ainz restricted it to not overly damage the city? Its a bit hard to use, ainz destroyed a city district with it. Meteor fall I have no idea...

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Meteor fall I have no idea...

Demiurge and Ainz use the spell iirc.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Yeah but I cant remeber if they ever described the damge it actually did, it cuts away as demiurge uses it against a wall...

 

[OpMasada]

Meteor fall I have no idea...

Demiurge and Ainz use the spell iirc.

Meteor fall used by demiurge did nothing more than destroy a city wall IIRC.

 

[OpMasada]

We have a basic idea of nuclear blast, saying that with how much ainz restricted it to not overly damage the city? Its a bit hard to use, ainz destroyed a city district with it. Meteor fall I have no idea...

The only 'restriction' Ainz had on nuclear blast was that he didn't buff the radius wasn't it?

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

When did they describe the wall and what happened in the city though? From what I remeber it cuts away and we never get solid information about it or its effects. I could be wrong about that though.

He mentions he could widen the area, so maybe thats it. But we know from cocytus battle with the lizard men they can reduce the area of effect there spells and skills have by will. Still entirely possible ainz simply didn't widen the magic and did nothing else to restict the spell.

Id have to read back through and Im done for the night.

 

[OpMasada]

I don't think they skipped it, I think demiurge immedietely goes to fight some human after it's destroyed.

 

[Moritzva]

Wait, with the AP Downgrade, Ainz vs Strahd very much needs to be removed since Ainz went from one-shotting Strahd to being in the process of being downgraded to Tier 8.

Which I firmly oppose, by the way.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Honestly, Ainz's feat is only inconsistent if you ignore the dozens of supporting feats that can't be calculated due to Overlord's writing style. Demiurge, the weakest floor guardian, obliterating massive country walls, nuclear attacks, etc, etc.

 

[Moritzva]

Honestly, Ainz's feat is only inconsistent if you ignore the dozens of supporting feats that can't be calculated due to Overlord's writing style. Demiurge, the weakest floor guardian, obliterating massive country walls, nuclear attacks, etc, etc.

Exactly. Overlord is simply not a show that pumps out calcable feats.

This feat doesn't stand as an outlier, and if a non-combat spell can do it, I see no reason why we can't assume that actual combat spells can do it.

While I can see the logic, quite simply, there are so many statements and feats we can't calc that making this downgrade is basically just punching a defenseless baby in the gut. I don't really have the time to debate it, but this simply doesn't look like an outlier if you gaze at other feats in-verse.