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Ainz Ooal Gown City Level Downgrades (Part 2 - Electric Boogaloo)

I may have had a slight mental breakdown there....Ive recovered, so to sum this up, this has been discussed before, nothing has changed since than, most if not all of these points were covered. Thus Im against this change, as are the one below, and yobo.
 
@TheOne: And, as I already stated, it is ridiculously more potent than Fallen Down, the only known Super Tier spell that damages through AP, so that alone shows that one Super Tier Spell can be far more powerful than the other; and, yes, it can be thousands of times more potent than a combat-based one, since it's not made for combat, so why would it even matter?

It is also ridiculously more potent than any regular tiered spell, with even the best AoE ones being on par with only very low-yield nukes. Like, botton of the barrel ones.

I know AoE doesn't mean a spell is more powerful than the other, what I mean is that he likely has no other spell with that big of a range. Nuclear Blast has one of the best AoEs in his arsenal, and it can't get close to covering an entire city, so saying that he might have a spell that can destroy a city is reaching at best. With the trend we see with all his other feats, it's highly unlikely he'll actually get to ever destroy a city in one-shot.
 
Votes

Against:4 yobo, one below, apeironaxim, pen or sword

For:2 infinitesped, bigboi

edit yobo pointed out this was debunked previously....
 
Creation scaling to other spells has been debunked as well, then it got revisioned, so we got what we have now.

Things change.
 
I meant you should have opened a crt to have other spells not scale to creation. Otherwise the above calc is still valid for scaling purposes.

edit aplogies your statement does cover creation not scaling.
 
Apologies brains slightly scrambled.

Votes

Against:4 yobo, one below, apeironaxim, pen or sword

For:2 infinitesped, bigboi

Lets wait to hear from more people im not convinced but as I said at the start Ill agree with the general consensus.
 
InfiniteSped said:
@TheOne: And, as I already stated, it is ridiculously more potent than Fallen Down, the only known Super Tier spell that damages through AP, so that alone shows that one Super Tier Spell can be far more powerful than the other; and, yes, it can be thousands of times more potent than a combat-based one, since it's not made for combat, so why would it even matter?
It is also ridiculously more potent than any regular tiered spell, with even the best AoE ones being on par with only very low-yield nukes. Like, botton of the barrel ones.

I know AoE doesn't mean a spell is more powerful than the other, what I mean is that he likely has no other spell with that big of a range. Nuclear Blast has one of the best AoEs in his arsenal, and it can't get close to covering an entire city, so saying that he might have a spell that can destroy a city is reaching at best. With the trend we see with all his other feats, it's highly unlikely he'll actually get to ever destroy a city in one-shot.
Click to expand...
As i have alredy stated in a previous comment Fallen down seems to be a "direct super damage but low BOOM" type of spell which explains why it did so little damage to the terrain compared to even Nuclear Bast, you cant really compare it to Creation. Creation is the only super tier that can be quantified and its a lesser version of the magic Ainz uses in combat, no reason why it shouldnt scale to other super tier spells.

The diference between regular tiered spells and super tier ones is ridiculous, Fallen down took out 25% of Shalltear HP but she was able to tank 90 magic arrows boosted to the equivalent of tenth tier spells.

'The ninety magical bolts scored hit after hit on Shalltear, rapidly dropping her health.'

'The reason why they could pierce Shalltear's defense was because Ainz had used a skill to temporarily boost the magic arrows to the equivalent of tenth tier spells.'

Nuclear Blast is just a 9th tier spell that was stated to be very weak even for its tier so it would have a lower damage output than even on of these arrows. Again, what matters is not the AOE of the spell but its damge output, Fallen Down does less damage to the envirement than Nuclear Blast but its still a far stronger spell. Now take into acount that a level 100 NPC can tank 90 tenth tier spells but looses 25% her HP with just one super tier spell and it becomes obvious that super tier spells and normal tiered ones cannot be compared.
 
Fallen Down is a giant energy blast from the skies, doesn't get more straightforward than that. It attacks through immense heat, ironically kinda the opposite of what Creation did. Still insanely weaker than Creation. Your whole argument relies on Super Tier Spells being comparable to each other, but this clearly shows that's not true, a non-combat one can be a lot more powerful than one that nukes the opponent.

You keep repeating that Creation is a lesser version of the magic that Ainz uses in battle. What do you mean by that?

That Magic Arrow amp clearly meant that he amped the spells, not each individual arrow. "Magic Arrow" is a spell of the 1st tier, all it's arrows together should do the damage of a 1st tier spell. While boosted, each set of Arrows deals the damage of a 10th tier spell, since he cast three of them, that's three 10th tier spells, not ninety. Tanking ninety 10th tier spells would be absolutely ridiculous.

You can see him casting it when he's bufffing himself, [Triplet Maximize Boosted Magic Arrow]
 
Guys this is pointless lets wait for more people to show up and give there stance. Trust me Ive seen the start of an argument that will span five hundred post before.

edit current votes Votes

Against:4 yobo, one below, apeironaxim, pen or sword

For:2 infinitesped, bigboi
 
InfiniteSped said:
Fallen Down is a giant energy blast from the skies, doesn't get more straightforward than that. It attacks through immense heat, ironically kinda the opposite of what Creation did. Still insanely weaker than Creation. Your whole argument relies on Super Tier Spells being comparable to each other, but this clearly shows that's not true, a non-combat one can be a lot more powerful than one that nukes the opponent.
You keep repeating that Creation is a lesser version of the magic that Ainz uses in battle. What do you mean by that?

That Magic Arrow amp clearly meant that he amped the spells, not each individual arrow. "Magic Arrow" is a spell of the 1st tier, all it's arrows together should do the damage of a 1st tier spell. While boosted, each set of Arrows deals the damage of a 10th tier spell, since he cast three of them, that's three 10th tier spells, not ninety. Tanking ninety 10th tier spells would be absolutely ridiculous.

You can see him casting it when he's bufffing himself, [Triplet Maximize Boosted Magic Arrow]
Click to expand...
Fallen down attacks through heat not a explosion and it did less damage to the envirement than even Nuclear Blast did and yet its a much stronger. As i have stated several times already it doesnt matter how much damge a spell caused to the terrain, what matters is the damage output.

What i mean when is that creation is a non-combat spell so its energy shud be lesser than the spells meant to damage people. This has been discussed before.

What set of arrows? Magic arrow can olny shoot one arrow and three when combined with triplet magic. When Ainz was buffing himself he cast [Triplet Maximize Boosted Magic Arrow] and then sealed 90 of those arrows using '[Triplet Magic Greater Magic Seal]'.As i said magic arrow only shoots one arrow not thirty. Also read the text again.

'The ninety magical bolts scored hit after hit on Shalltear, rapidly dropping her health.'

'The reason why they could pierce Shalltear's defense was because Ainz had used a skill to temporarily boost the magic arrows to the equivalent of tenth tier spells.'

Its pretty clear that Ainz did indeed boost each individual arrow. Nothing is mentioned about a set.
 
@TheOne:

Fallen Down is like an energy beam. Doesn't have to be an explosion to do damage to the enviroment. It's damage output was so low it couldn't vaporize tree trunks in the entirety of the area affected. So, even the damage output is very low. Ainz says the spell is good against undead, so that's prob why he used, but this still shows that it's damage output is way lower than the potency of Creation.

You fail to explain why a non-combat spell would be necessarily weaker than combat ones, when literally everything points to the contrary.

The number of Magic Arrows per cast seems to vary. A random adventurer had 2, Iguva had 3, Ainz likely has more, and that's without tripling or dubling it. Ainz upgraded it to the 10th tier, so the number of arrows got likely even bigger. He mentions thirty per cast:

"In accordance with Ainz's command, the [Triplet Magic Greater Magic Seal] triggered three magic circles, each of which released 30 streaks of light, for a total of 90."

He tripled it, then he got ninety arrows in total. He clearly means that each cast of the Magic Arrow spell was upgraded to the 10th tier. Three 10th tier spells, the only logical explanation, unless you actually believe that Shalltear would survive ninety 10th tier spells. Imagine ninety lvl 100 magic casters launching 10th tier spells at her, you think she'd shrug it off like that?
 
I disagree with these changes. As was said above, the environmental destruction of Creation can't be dismissed. Due to the evidence we already have of the huge gap between 10th tier and Super tier, as well as the lack of feats to the contrary, we don't have enough information to definitively say that creation is an outlier.
 
Even if this wasn't considered an outlier Ainz would still only be city level with environmental destruction

In other words it's not combat applicable ap
 
And the only other spell of that teir we've seen is fallen down and black goats. Saying nothing else within the tenth and super teir spells will match them is presumptious.
 
We've seen Fallen Down, La Shub Niggurath, Wish Upon a Star and Pantheon. Regardless, just assuming he has a spell on the level of the strongest nukes ever created, while all his combat feats are way lower, seems more unlikely to me.
 
You cant just say that since we haven't seen anything else from that tier it's automatically not inconsistent. If all his feats are lower besides that single environmental destruction feat, which isn't even a combat applicable thing, then the feat isn't outlier.
 
and thats the point of contention. Neither of us have solid evidence either way. Which is why this has gone back and forth so much and is liable to continue to do so.

I could mention ainz lack of shock over evileye and lakyus supposdly having weapons/abilities that could destroy a city but that relies on ainz characterization which I try to avoid.
 
I don't agree with this.

If a noncombat spell as that level of potency, then I am far more inclined to say that actual combat spells with intended damage effects would have higher potency. One can say "Ah, but Fallen Down calced out to be less!", though at the same time, on VSBW we take the higher of the feats, not the lesser.

Sometimes, attacks won't yield as much relative to other feats, despite being said to be stronger. Sometimes, that's just how it works. We base things off the highest feat.

As it is, I see no need for yet another downgrade. Creation, as a non-combat spell, is fine as a hallmark for both non-combat and combat spells alike.
 
That's not how it works. It's up to the side claiming his higher tier spells are all city level. The side claiming they aren't doesn't have to prove that the spells aren't all city level.

If neither side has any proof and the only spell that is city level is that level through an environmental destruction feat he isn't city level
 
@Pixel:

It's not that Fallen Down was calced to be less, it's that the entire calc is invalid because it uses the non-canon anime scene, that contradicts the Light Novel. The LN spell was visibly way weaker than the anime one.

Again, I don't see how it's a good hallmark when it's thousands upon thousands of times better than any other feat.
 
Except its the side going for the downgrade thats trying to change something that has already been discussed at length on previous revision threads, thus the burden of proof lies with the ones trying to enforce a change
 
InfiniteSped said:
@TheOne:
Fallen Down is like an energy beam. Doesn't have to be an explosion to do damage to the enviroment. It's damage output was so low it couldn't vaporize tree trunks in the entirety of the area affected. So, even the damage output is very low. Ainz says the spell is good against undead, so that's prob why he used, but this still shows that it's damage output is way lower than the potency of Creation.

You fail to explain why a non-combat spell would be necessarily weaker than combat ones, when literally everything points to the contrary.

The number of Magic Arrows per cast seems to vary. A random adventurer had 2, Iguva had 3, Ainz likely has more, and that's without tripling or dubling it. Ainz upgraded it to the 10th tier, so the number of arrows got likely even bigger. He mentions thirty per cast:

"In accordance with Ainz's command, the [Triplet Magic Greater Magic Seal] triggered three magic circles, each of which released 30 streaks of light, for a total of 90."

He tripled it, then he got ninety arrows in total. He clearly means that each cast of the Magic Arrow spell was upgraded to the 10th tier. Three 10th tier spells, the only logical explanation, unless you actually believe that Shalltear would survive ninety 10th tier spells. Imagine ninety lvl 100 magic casters launching 10th tier spells at her, you think she'd shrug it off like that?
Click to expand...
The fact that it did less damage to envirement than Nuclear Blast pretty much confirms that its "direct super damage but low BOOM" type of spell. You are still judging the power of the spell based on the how much it damage the terrain, what matters is how much damage it did to the target, that why a spell like Nuclear Blast can surpass almost all other spells in terms of AOE and still be considered weak. Fallen down is clearly a concentrated, target focused attack that does more damage to the one its aimed at rather than the sarrounding envirement.

Nothing points to the contrary. As i mentioned before it makes no sense for a spell thats not eve nmeant to be used in combat to be thousands of times stronger than one that is, spells on the same tier should be comparable to each other anyways. I arleady explained why Fallen downs damage output cant be judged based oon the enviremental damage it caused so there is no reason why it shouldnt be scale to Creation.

I'll drop the argument about the arrows for sinse i only really brough it up as an example. Point is, it doesnt really matter how much damage a spell did to the sorounding envirement sinse as we see with Nuclear Blast a spell can have a wide AOE and still be weak in terms of damage. Nuclear blast is the only spell that actualy did some significant damage to the terrain and not only is it two tiers lower than creation but also very weak even for its tier so you cant compare it to Creation.
 
The pen or the sword said:
current votes Votes
Against:6 yobo, one below, apeironaxim, pen or sword, fdrybob, kirby

For:3 infinitesped, bigboi, paul
Click to expand...
How many votes does one side need to reach for this to be over?
 
@OneBelow:

If it was direct super damage, it would have actually annihilated everything in it's blast radius, but it didn't. The area burnt took the full power of the spell, while things outside weren't affected at all. The trees were part of the target, and not even them were destroyed, so it's clearly more of an AoE thing than a focused attack.

Creation's feat being thousands of times better than anything else points to the contrary. You can't scale Fallen Down to it if it's clearly ridiculously weaker.

That's my point, you can't compare anything to Creation, since it's so much better than anything else.
 
The pen or the sword said:
Except its the side going for the downgrade thats trying to change something that has already been discussed at length on previous revision threads, thus the burden of proof lies with the ones trying to enforce a change
Click to expand...
That's wrong though. You have to provide evidence for the claim of the spells being that strong even though the only feat on that level is environmental destruction that scales to no one the opposition doesn't need to prove the spells are not that strong
 
Your trying to change the conclusion reached by the last thread to discuss this matter im trying to have it left alone. My problem from the begining with this thread was it has no new information to invalidate the old conclusion.
 
InfiniteSped said:
@OneBelow:
If it was direct super damage, it would have actually annihilated everything in it's blast radius, but it didn't. The area burnt took the full power of the spell, while things outside weren't affected at all. The trees were part of the target, and not even them were destroyed, so it's clearly more of an AoE thing than a focused attack.

Creation's feat being thousands of times better than anything else points to the contrary. You can't scale Fallen Down to it if it's clearly ridiculously weaker.

That's my point, you can't compare anything to Creation, since it's so much better than anything else.
Click to expand...
I dont think you got what i meant by direct super damage. What i meant was that the spell does more damage to the one its aimed at rather than the sarounding envirement. The target that i was reffering to was Shalltear, its more likely that the damage was focused on her and the enviremental damage was more of a secondary effect. This makes perfect sense and would explain why Fallen down did less damage to the envirement than even Nuclear Blast despite being a much stronger spell.

Its clear that Fallen Down focused more on single-target damage dealing rather than enviremental damage, utherwise it would have damaged the envirement a lot more than Nuclear Blast. Sinse we dont know its exact damage output i dont see why it shouldnt scale to creation.

Nuclear Blast cant be compared to Creation because its two tiers lower and stated to be very weak for its tier. Super tier spells on the other hand can definitely scale to Creation.
 
I also disagree with the changes.

We just don't have enough proof that contradicts Fallen Down or any other combat-based tier spell not scaling to Creation, especially when we saw the effects that Creation brought to the environment, thus we can't just dismiss the scaling to Creation just like that. It could just simply be that Creation is designed to target the environment, while other Super-Tier spells (the combat-based ones especially) like Fallen Down brings direct damage to the enemies rather than just focusing on the environment.

Due to the huge gap between Super-tier and the other tier spells, and the lacking of feats of the former that can be used to contradict the city-level calculation and rating, I don't think we have enough evidence to disapprove the AP scaling yet.

Disagree FRA I guess.
 
Votes

Against:8 yobo, one below, apeironaxim, pen or sword, fdrybob, kirby, emperor, deathnoodles

For:4 infinitesped, bigboi, paul, abdiel
 
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