Ainz Ooal Gown City Level Downgrades (Part 2 - Electric Boogaloo)

[Ricsi-viragosi]

That is a non-factor. It is still a non-combat ability that has nothing to tie it to other abilities. You could pull out a feat thrice as powerful as this but this still wouldn't scale to anything, because there is nothing tying it to any other ability. And other super tier magic is completely whacky and unique in power, unless you want to argue that wish upon a star is tied to a tier.

And existence erasure is the removal of something from existence. It doesn't scale to AP. And here more so it's obvious that he isn't exerting enough energy to destroy each individual subatom.

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

Your last paragraph...Great, now the fodder of the fodder have hax and could erase water content in the body of their opponent...

My opinion is that a super tier of any kind that has a calculable AP should scale to the character unless it's weird stuff like [Change The World], [Wish Upon A Star] and [Fallen Down]. I've pointed it out in the other CRT, especially [Fallen Down]

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Is that supposed to be a rebuttal..? You're claim is a thousand times more outlandish.

Your opinion doesn't mean much without an argument to back it up. You might dislike that, but it's how it is, which is why counting votes in a crt doesn't matter either.

 

[SordahonMage]

I'm with Ricsi-viragosi that unless it's attack spell, it shouldn't be thought as ap, Creation froze a lake sure, but when he used direct attack Super Tier Spell, he only burned ground and left charred trees in quite wide area.

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

You're the one that steered it towards erasure, not me.

I think if you stopped to think for a second on the nature of those spells then I wouldn't need to write paragraphs constructing an argument. But to keep it short, very short:

[Fallen Down]: A light spell that also generates heat, the former being more deadly

[Wish Upon A Star]: Grants a wish of unknown limit

[Change The World]: Creates a pocket dimension, there are calculations for things of this nature but not a-lot of information on the spell

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Yes, because erasure is stated in the name, and the alternative is an immense strech just to get a feat.

I am saying that the spells are unrelated to other. Each have different limitations and they don't share a source of power. A shotgun and a handgun are both guns, but they don't scale by virtue of that (and they have more in common than any of those spells).

Of you're exemples, one is applicable to an actual tier (pocket dimensions cannot be calculated and such calcs were rejected), and it's thousands of times weaker than creation.

 

[Bonesdrowy]

Except he does it with a spell that specifically doesn't scale to other spells in his arsenal, with him mentioning that it even goes overboard. And "we don't have a statement that it's not something" is a slap in the pace to burden of proof.
If he uses a spell that he finds the effects of extremely high, it's a special spell beyond the others and it doesn't use his personal energy and it cannot harm anything on the tier it is put at then there is no reason to consider it anything but Enviremental Damage.

So are we using our own interpretation of a character's thoughts as evidence now? I mean that novel quote could simply be that he found the range going overboard in relation to the original range of the spell within YGGDRASIL, which means he isn't comparing its range to his other spells. Which makes sense considering the total amount of area one can explore in a given world isn't that much bigger than Tokyo if I remember right. Its a similar reaction to when he first summoned a death knight and its effects vastly differ than what he experienced or seen in YGGDRASIL.

Your evidence that the spell doesn't use his own energy is pretty lacking as its seemingly based on how one would interpret Ainz's thoughts, with nothing actually explicit/concrete on it. I'd figure if you're gonna make a claim that it doesn't require any of Ainz's energy it would require more solid proof.

@SordahonMage

I'd wish people stop using Fallen Down as a example to counter Creation. Its a single target spell thats meant to have a limited area of effect due to it being concentrated light in a small area. It effecting a large (if any amount at all) area is a bonus unrelated to its purpose, this is ignoring the fact that we do not know the actual lengrh of the area so describing it as 'wide' is shaky at best.

On a sidenote, I do find the after effects of Fallen Down weird, as it only carbonized some trees yet glassed large patches of the ground and later essentially vaporized a very durable vampire.

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

Both are feats, you mean one is getting a number while the other is labelling it hax.

I think what you're trying to say it that they are unrelated to each other and each serve a purpose while also not sharing the same source of power? Like throwing a fireball and not vaporizing a pond whle a spell of the same tier can freeze the pond thus they don't scale to each other?

Pretty sure I saw a calculation for a dimension not containing a star, it would help if a calc member drops their opinion. And I think there was a statement somewhere that they would treat it as destruction/explosion and not GBE.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

So are we using our own interpretation of a character's thoughts as evidence now?

Yes, absolutely. A characters interpretation of something is a really damn important part of this stuff.

I mean that novel quote could simply be that he found the range going overboard in relation to the original range of the spell within YGGDRASIL, which means he isn't comparing its range to his other spells. Which makes sense considering the total amount of area one can explore in a given world isn't that much bigger than Tokyo if I remember right. Its a similar reaction to when he first summoned a death knight and its effects vastly differ than what he experienced or seen in YGGDRASIL.

Possibly, but that was supporting evidence besides the other arguments.

Your evidence that the spell doesn't use his own energy is pretty lacking as its seemingly based on how one would interpret Ainz's thoughts, with nothing actually explicit/concrete on it. I'd figure if you're gonna make a claim that it doesn't require any of Ainz's energy it would require more solid proof.

...No. It's a fact. Super tiered spells don't use mana, it's nothing to do with his toughts. The most they can use is his levels, but this one doesn't use those either. It has a timelimiter, and that's it.


Both are feats, you mean one is getting a number while the other is labelling it hax.

No, one is an ability unrelated to others, the other is a calculation that would affect every other spell. It's name plain says erasure, and assuming subatomic destruction without proof is a no. Plain and simple. Or what, you want tier 6 harry potter because 11 year olds can make things disappear?

I think what you're trying to say it that they are unrelated to each other and each serve a purpose while also not sharing the same source of power? Like throwing a fireball and not vaporizing a pond whle a spell of the same tier can freeze the pond thus they don't scale to each other?

Kind of, yes. They are completely different spells with different outputs. A firethrower doesn't have a tenth of the power of a shotgun, because their fuctions differ.

Pretty sure I saw a calculation for a dimension not containing a star, it would help if a calc member drops their opinion. And I think there was a statement somewhere that they would treat it as destruction/explosion and not GBE.

Yes, and it was plain refused because it's baseless conjucture.

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

Extremely confusing how you made that post but you're saying one is a calculation that would affect the tiers, yes that is true, while the other is in the name? Pretty sure it says destruction and not erasure in the name but why did you dodge when I stated it would be hax.

Super tier does share the same source of power, the Yggdrasil system. Like skills they are substituting mana for a quantity of power to fulfill their task, for example Demiurge uses no mana for [Dimensional Lock] as it is a demon/angel skill while Ainz has to use mana. They are all running off the same system, what differs is the quantity they receive, for example [Fallen Down] VS [Creation]

Also the calculation for treating it as destruction is here https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:The_Real_Eugene_Sims/InFAMOUS:_Eugene_Creates_Pocket_dimension

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

Or https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Liger686/Generator_Rex:_Breach%27s_Pocket_dimension

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

What are you talking about? It's erasure, that's it. I don't know what you think I "dodged", but you're just misimpretreting me there.

But with mana you know how much was used and you can say a similiar amount was used for another person. The system never runs out of energy, we don't know if it has a limit, and claiming that anything that uses it's energy is equal or comparable in power is just unfounded. The seconds point plain highlights that they can't scale because the system does not give them an equal amount of power.

It's wrong. And it was refused.

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

You said it's erasure and I pointed out existence erasure of which you said it isn't AP. There is a discussion on types of erasure going in but regardless this matter erasure would be hax, no? Which is why I thought you were dodging.

We don't really know how much was used though (if you mean actual quantifiable ), spells of the same tier cost different amounts of mana too. The systems of-course will never run out of energy, at-least that would be a sane assumption as there has not been any hints from the author or the novel that it's running out. For example a IRL RPG, that skill on cooldown that you want to use, are you worried any time soon the game might just send you a message like [Sorry we don't have anything to power your skill]. I know seems like a wacky example but they do run off game mechanics.

Also the calculation was not wrong, his assumtion of using vaporization was wrong, DMUA pointed it out and he edited it. The seconnd calculation there is from a calc group member that wasn't rejected.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Because... it isn't AP. They erase water, that's it.

That's the point. You don't know. Burden of proof, until you prove it you can't assume other abilities scale.

No... it was plain said by even Ant that such a thing is not quantifiable. There was a whole crt, you can't calculate pocket realities.

 

[Antvasima]

You should ask the staff members listed in the Overlord verse page to comment here.

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

I'll just assume that you've forgotten how stated the novel said it could be used for offensive purposes. The average human body contains 50-65% water, but they erase just water...

Well anyways, claiming anything that uses the same power is comparable would be true for any skill as those scale to the person's level. Super-Tier goes off into their own league, the degree of damage depends on the spell used, for example you wouldn't use [Fallen Down] against a human of comparable level as it wouldn't kill them. This isn't baseless as Ainz who is weak to heat/fire receives x2 damage from it and yet despite being low HP (not as low as Shalltear thought), he tanked the vaporizing heat.

There is a page for common references regarding the creation of a planet and star but if you can point me to that page for something of a smaller scale (of-course it shouldn't be outdated).

Edit:Link

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

That has nothing to do with AP.

There is nothing that proves or states that they all have equal or comparable amounts of power. That's where the argument dies. You need to prove that it scales, which you can't. The fact that "the degree of damage depends on the spell used" proves that they can't be scaled to each other.

There isn't. You cannot calculate making a pocket dimension. You eyeball if it's logical for it to scale to the character... it can be only scaled if the character uses their own energy to create them.

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

From my short stay on this, anything combat oriented would be AP unless labelled hax. I am confused, are you saying it's combat applicable but 'just erasing water', because if that is the case then this would be matter erasure falling under existence erasure unless a calc/staff member lurking here can provide their opinion.

You've misinterpreted, I was saying they are all in the same ball park although different degree of power just as much as tier spells. For example a fireball towards one opponent while sending a freezing gust towards another opponent, then you end up calculating and you find that the freezing gust is of a higher AP (just in this scenario). Unless you want to say there is a super tier that is 8-C while there is a 6-C one...

Not sure what you mean there, are you now saying it isn't calculable if it isn't the characters own power?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

No, existence erasure is not AP. Being combat applicable doesn't translate to AP. AP is your capability to hurt people on a certain tier.

Based on what? What puts them into the same ballpark? You keep saying they are comparable, but failing to give any proof. There is no comparable amounts of energy used, one requires thousands of times more power than the other, and Creation is not meant for combat at all. You need to prove they can be compared to each other in power, and having the same label for type of magic is not enough for that.

It is not calculable. Point. You cannot calculate how much power one uses to create a pocket dimension. To give a tier based on it, you eyeball it, but you can only do that if the character uses their own energy to do so.

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

So then it's hax?

Why I assume it's in the same ballpark? They are in the same category, their degree/potency may differ but like I said, this is no different than tier spells, I am not borrowing some sort example from another series, I am basing this off of the series' own system. For example [Nuclear Blast] being inferior to a pillar of fire [Vermillion Nova], both are calculable, the latter engulfed Ainz, there are much large fireballs in calc blogs that yield a much lower result than what we can interpret [Nuclear Blast] does, that fall under 'thousands of times more power'?. Or you can just assume they aren't in the same ballpark because it was never stated...

I gave the page there, I don't see people taking it down. A pocket dimension of a smaller scale, if you can link a CRT that isn't outdated or if a staff can comment herer would end this. Also they all draw from the same source, it has a timer and is also his own power regardless of where or when he is. What you mean to say is that he doesn't cover the cost

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Hax is a term for an ability that ignores durability. What do ya think?

Yes, it is very different than tiered spells. Such spells have mana consumption to back them up, and combat spells that use the same amount of mana are logically similiar in power. That doesn't work here. I am assuming they are not in the same ballpark because there is nothing tying them togethere, since these spells specifically break the normal constraints of tiered magic, nothing ever implied that they break it to the same extent however.

There was a whole CRT, feel free to ask any of the calc group members. And they don't draw an equal amount from the source, so that's not proof that they are comparable. Both my phone and my electric car draw from my houses' energy, the two are not comparable in the amount of electricity they hold.

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

Hasn't been used on anyone but normal water. It depends on if matter erasure is hax, If a staff doesn't comment about it I'll eventually ask in the proper page.

So you're saying mana cost = more potency/damage, meaning we can accept if they have different potency but skills and super-tier which do not use mana are not the same as they don't draw from the same source...I just gave an example of a calculable feat, vermillion nova vs Nuclear Blast, the latter destroying a district while the former just engulfs a target, using the size/volume you will end up with results thousands of times lower than nuclear blast, there is a calc I am basing this on and it has a fireball that makes [Vermillion Nova] look like a spark and it was accepted as city block.

This is using this sites rules, the verse stated [Vermillion Nova] to be superior, but calculated it wouldn't be, now wouldn't the 'logical' thing to assume (with statements) that super-tier exceed tier spells?

I'll ask one later, also of-course they don't draw an equal amount, you've already mentioned mana consumption. Using the argument, 'They draw different amounts of mana but they are all in same ballpark' while also saying 'super-tier draws exotic/unknown power from the same source but at different amounts = not being in the same ballpark' really doesn't work.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

You should ask the staff members listed in the Overlord verse page to comment here.

I did that around a month and a half ago; Matt did post here but didn't really seem to make any commentary, Bambu mostly just talked about the ED justifications for DnD, and the others who I talked to on the previous thread kind of didn't respond at all.

Which is why I can't say much more than "this is my opinion on the matter" since precedent tells me what I'm saying isn't reflective of the thoughts of the staff and most Overlord supporters and experts.

 

[DeathNoodles]

I did that around a month and a half ago; Matt did post here but didn't really seem to make any commentary, Bambu mostly just talked about the ED justifications for DnD, and the others who I talked to on the previous thread kind of didn't respond at all.

Which is why I can't say much more than "this is my opinion on the matter" since precedent tells me what I'm saying isn't reflective of the thoughts of the staff and most Overlord supporters and experts.

If there aren't any other staff members responding to the Overlord CRTs, and your opinions being too different from the thoughts of most Overlord supporters/experts and other staff, then the best we can do to complete the CRTs is going by the general consensus (which involves voting) due to the lack of better options.

So far, the majority of the Overlord supporters/experts disagree with this CRT, and agrees with the recent CRTs about the upgrades for the Overlord God-Tiers.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

the best we can do to complete the CRTs is going by the general consensus (which involves voting) due to the lack of better options

While I agree, I don't think a straight vote is always indicitive of consensus, although in this thread and the other I'm aware that the majority think these feats apply.

 

[Moritzva]

I really think that, with Overlord, we should use what we get.

Such as this cloud feat, and similar feats.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I agree, although that shouldn't justify us using anything we have thrown onto our tables, even if there's explicit issues with the feats.

 

[SuperKamiNappa]

The Fallen Dwon calc is Small City level, I'd say that's close enough to serve as a supporting feat for a City level rating.

 

[InfiniteSped]

That calc uses the anime, which contradicts the Light Novel, the primary canon. There wasn't a giant crater in the LN, and Shalltear's armor wasn't vaporized.

 

[FDrybob]

Plus, that calc assumes Shalltear's armor is made of iron, when we know that even a Yggdrasil metal that Ainz considered trash was too heat resistant to be melted by the even the most well-known blacksmiths.

 

[Apeironaxim]

at the absolute worst, going by the standard calcs for storms, Cloud Creation is Low 7-B

so that's a support

 

[Septan96]

Overlord vol. 13 Before Ainz fights Jaldabaoth (Wrath demon), Ainz tells Neia, Caspond and the others in the headquarters of Loyt:

"...Then I'll be going too. You should go take shelter so you don't get caught up in the fighting. While I don't think it'll be a problem, I hope you'll understand if this city ends up demolished."

 

[Hit_The_Badass]

The downplay is real here smh....

 

[InfiniteSped]

''sigh''

 

[Antvasima]

@InfiniteSped

So what is the consensus here? I personally think that you and Dargoo seem to make sense, but I have only skimmed through the thread.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Considering the fact we have two cloud feats that puts the cast between 7b and 6c, not to mention art from the light novel that points to the possiblity of there actually being a crater making the 7b portion of the fallen down calc seem valid? Id say this probably shouldn't go through

edit and we still have creation....

 

[Moritzva]

I already firmly disagree with 7-B Overlord. I'm certainly not going for anything lower than that.

It should stay where it is.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I'd still really appreciate it if the admins who commented on the previous thread with this issue did so here.

This includes AssaultWaffle (who was the main voice for the feat not being ED), Kep, Matt, Saikou, and DontTalk, who I messaged about this a while ago.

 

[Antvasima]

@Dargoo

You can remind them via their message walls, and tell them that I would appreciate their help.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

The difficulty here is the issue with Overlord's tendency to make feats that aren't calculable, like I said. Even if the downgrade goes through, it could at least be said to be something like "7-B, likely Far Higher"